Chris Matthews on MSNBC’s Hardball said Billy Graham was “probably the most important religious man in America’s history”.
Really? I think Rev. Graham’s perfectly nice, but I don’t think he remotely qualifies for that accolade at all by comparison.
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August 14th, 2007
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MLK, Sojourner Truth, Cotton Mathers, anybody else?
Jonathan Edwards, John Winthrop (city on a hill), Joseph Smith, and Mary Baker Eddy are all pretty important, too. I like Reinhold Niebuhr, myself. But MLK is the clear winner.
I just got through reading The Preacher and the Presidents by Michael Duffy, which is a biography of Graham through the filter of the presidents with whom he’s interacted. You may not like Graham, his message or his closeness to power, but he has been a spiritual force for every president since the 1970s. If that doesn’t qualify as one of the most important religious men in American history, I don’t know what does.
I just got through reading The Preacher and the Presidents by Michael Duffy, which is a biography of Graham through the filter of the presidents with whom he’s interacted. You may not like Graham, his message or his closeness to power, but he has been a spiritual force for every president since the 1970s. If that doesn’t qualify as one of the most important religious men in American history, I don’t know what does.
Does Graham have anything like the Civil Rights Act under his belt? I’m not saying Graham hasn’t had influence, or that the influence was bad, but he’s no King.
…and Dr. King was no Billy Graham.
Dr. King’s greatest accomplishments were in politics and law, not religion. I have no problem lauding him as a great American and a great civil rights leader, but purely in the context of “religion,” his accomplishments pale next to Dr. Graham.
On the other hand, as someone who is not overly religious, Joseph Smith and Mary Baker Eddy did not come to mind at first — but as people who started whole churches that continue today as sizable denominations today, they could be equally worthy (if not better) rivals to Dr. Graham.
I’ll leave the arguments to who makes it past the finals to those better qualified to judge theological matters, but Dr. King does not make the cut when the topic is purely religious contributions.
J.
Good god, I just backed Chris “get closer to the camera” Matthews. I’m gonna chalk this up to the broken-clock theory.
J.
The correct answer is “Jesus.” This is why none of you guys will get to be President.
purely in the context of “religion,” his accomplishments pale next to Dr. Graham.
And what accomplishments can Graham claim that make Dr. King’s “pale,” J?
Jay Tea is bending over backwards to make Matthews’ comment stick, but he didn’t say that Graham “made the greatest religious contributions in America’s history,” he said that Graham himself was “the most important religious man in America’s history.”
That is, Matthews said the man was great, not that his specifically religious deeds were great.
King worked to bring equality and love–moral imperatives of Christ–to America. Just because he didn’t do it under the specific auspices of religious demagoguery doesn’t make him any less of a holy man.
What SpiderJ said. What’s more religious or truly Christian than equality of man and human rights? Nothing.
That is, Matthews said the man was great, not that his specifically religious deeds were great.
Yes, but it is all about context and it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand what Matthews was talking about.
With regard to religion, King used the ministry largely as a framework for expressing his philosophy of social protest because he believed largely in non-violent means to achieving equality. Spiritually however, the picture is very fuzzy. There’s quite a bit of evidence that suggests King didn’t even believe in particular basics of Christianity (that Jesus is God or that Jesus is the Son of God). He also had his personal demons as well, as he was a serial adulterer and not all that ashamed of it.
Now, before I start getting raked by the usual suspects, none of what I wrote above in any way shape or form, diminishes what King did with regard to Civil Rights as King pretty much was the Civil Rights movement. His courage and strength were amazing and I admire and respect what he did, but JT is right when he says that King’s greatest work was largely done in the political and legal realm, not religious.
As for Graham’s influence, it extends worldwide. Graham has always been humble about his place in this world and he has often come under a lot of criticism for embracing those around him who others claim shouldn’t be embraced (he openly welcomes all Christian denominations to his crusades and the heads of some conservative Christians blew up when he gave the mic over to the Clintons at a crusade in New York a couple of years ago). He’s raised millions of dollars to help fight poverty around the world. After the tsunami hit, his organization helped to raise over $9 million in relief aid. Graham was always scrupulous about tracking funds that there has never been a whiff of scandal like the ones that plagued the televangelists in the 80’s. Graham also played a part in the civil rights movement. He strongly worked to integrate his crusades in the 1960’s, despite the pressure he received for doing so.
Billy Graham goes way beyond “perfectly nice” and declaring him to be one of the most important religious men in America’s history is a very accurate statement.
declaring him to be one of the most important religious men in America’s history is a very accurate statement.
I’m not denying “one of the most.” I’m arguing Matthew’s statement, “most.”
King and Graham were both holy men, regardless of how much religion they used to achieve their goals.
Perhaps Matthews is arguing exactly the same thing you are, but one can’t really tell in his two-second soundbite.
King’s greatest work was largely done in the political and legal realm, not religious.
Sometimes it’s hard to separate the two. Just ask Mr. Pilate.
I remember an interview with Billy Graham where the questioner asked him what he considered the greatest evil in the USA. The tenor of the conversation led to the expectation that the answer would be drugs, sex, or abortion. Graham’s answer was racism. He described his life as a young person in North Carolina and said that his greatest personal failing was that he did to little to combat racism.
I am not a religious person, but I was impressed by the answer and how it confronted issues that the typical televangelists never mention.
The interview was on NPR about fifteen years ago; IIRC.
Perhaps Matthews is arguing exactly the same thing you are, but one can’t really tell in his two-second soundbite.
That is true.
Hitler was a “great man” by way of having influenced the world. Not by any means a good man, to the contrary, one of the most evil men ever, However he influenced history to an historic degree.
Billy Graham was a “great man”. He has influenced generations of American Christians.
But what is the state of Christianity in America today?
American Christians love Jesus a lot, but money even more. Witness Pat Robinson and Bruce Wilkinson, two “Christian Scholars” who preach that Jesus wants “His People” to be rich in their portfolios.
While I’m not a Biblical Scholar I find Jesus to be of the opposite opinion.
He told the rich young man to “sell all you have give to the poor and follow me.”
Coveting money American Christians have fallen prey to false Disciples of Christ. Preachers who endorsed both Bush and his war. Shameful conduct.
What are the fruits of Bill Graham? We find our country victim of unscrupulous men who use the Lord for their own personal gain, both in the pulpit and in the public office.
An intergenerational religious war because Bush said God was talking to him? I think Bush is a complete cynic, but if anyone was whispering in his ear it wasn’t Jesus.
While I’m not a Biblical Scholar I find Jesus to be of the opposite opinion.
He told the rich young man to “sell all you have give to the poor and follow me.”
Once more, we have people misinterpreting scripture. People often quote what you’re quoting out of context and also the camel through the eye of a needle verse out of context as well.
Jesus had nothing against wealth. The entire passage where Jesus was speaking with the young man, had to do with man’s love of money. When Jesus said to the young man, “give (not sell) all you have to the poor and follow me” He knew what the man’s decision was going to be, and used it as an example for his disciples to show how shortsighted people are and how despite the fact that life on earth is but an instant in the scheme of things, people would still choose earthly riches over an eternity in Heaven.
To lay blame at the feet of Billy Graham for corrupt politicians and those who use religion as a way of obtaining personal wealth is absurd as you’re cherry picking examples and claiming it is the “state of Christianity today.”
Such incredible chutzpah and hypocrisy.
In this post, Oliver casts his ballot for MLK as the most important religious man in America’s history, yet in this comment, he casts aside the great man’s advice to justify his desire to see another human being die.
Jesus spoke against the gathering of wealth.
As in “You can not serve both money and God.”
The American Christians who want to love Jesus still want their money too. Billy Graham, if he were a real Christian leader would have clarified that for us. But he didn’t.
When old Billy boy came through San Diego a few years ago he was so big they just put up billboards of him, Billy G., with a date and place. Not even a mention of God.
Jesus said, “Woe to you when all men speak well of you for that is how they treated the false prophets.”
What can I say? Everyone loves Billy because he let you have it your way and with the cash too.
Jesus spoke against the gathering of wealth.
No, he did not.
As in “You can not serve both money and God.”
That has nothing to do with gathering wealth.
You need to educate yourself on such things because your ignorance is pretty glaring.
13Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me.”
14Jesus replied, “Man, who appointed me a judge or an arbiter between you?” 15Then he said to them, “Watch out! Be on your guard against all kinds of greed; a man’s life does not consist in the abundance of his possessions.”
16And he told them this parable: “The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. 17He thought to himself, ‘What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.’
18″Then he said, ‘This is what I’ll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19And I’ll say to myself, “You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry.” ‘
20″But God said to him, ‘You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?’
21″This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God.”
Do Not Worry
22Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23Life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life[b]? 26Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
27″Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith! 29And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.
32″Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
Quaker, is this supposed to mean something?
This is such an ahistorical comment. Billy Graham may be the most prominent religious figure in our time. But in all of American history? Forget it.
George Whitefield probably qualifies for that honor. Whitefield almost singlehandedly introduced evangelical Christianity to the American masses (white and black) between 1739 and 1741. His movement completely ruptured the Congregationalist elite’s hold on New England churches and challenged the hold of Anglicanism in the South. It also helped popularize the New Light movement among Presbyterians, which moved with the Scots-Irish into the Appalachian backcountry. As a political consequence, Whitefield’s Great Awakening helped undermine the politco-religious elite and sow a uniquely democratic form of revival that would bear fruit in 1776. Without Whitefield, there might not have been an America.
Quaker, is this supposed to mean something?
I would assume so.
17After he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about this parable. 18″Are you so dull?” he asked.
@Elrod: I’ll go with William Penn–and confess to bias.
I would assume so.
You mean you’d hope so. As in you thought somehow copying and pasting random quotes from the Bible somehow lends weight to Mike’s false assertion about what Jesus said about wealth?
“Every prudent man acts with knowledge, But a fool lays open his folly” – Proverbs 13:16
As in you thought somehow copying and pasting random quotes from the Bible somehow lends weight to Mike’s false assertion about what Jesus said about wealth?
Random? No, they’re quite on point and provide the context you said is often missing.
As for improving on their meaning, I defer to you.
The pride of the dying rich raises the loudest laugher in hell.
If your a rich man how can you go by your poor brothers and sisters in need and not give away everything you have if you are a real Christian.
Jay, repent and follow Jesus.
Jay’s Jesus is Jeebus 2.0, where accumulating mass amounts of wealth while 1 billion people live on less than $1 a day is holy. On the other hand, if a man likes another man he’s going to hell. Jeebus 2.0 says torture is cool, as long as its brown people who worship Mohammed (though exceptions can be made in the case of random brown people).
Jay thank you for pointing out my ignorance on the subject of Jesus and money.
I’ll take that ignorance with me to the grave with thanks to the Christ for eyes to see with.
“Where your treasure is there your heart is.”