If you want to know one big reason why the newspaper industry is in the toilet, look no further than the Los Angeles Times. After years of browbeating from well-financed conservatives about their “liberal bias”, newspapers like the L.A. Times feel compelled to be “fair and balanced” by giving column inches in their paper to random conservative idiots who don’t know dick. The L.A. Times decided to give their shingle to Jonah Goldberg, editor of the right-wing National Review. And so, in one of the major papers in the country, Goldberg is given lots of column inches to mull over the really brilliant idea that we ought to test people before they go to the polls.
Instead of making it easier to vote, maybe we should be making it harder. Why not test people about the basic functions of government? Immigrants have to pass a test to vote; why not all citizens?
A voting test would point the arrow of civic engagement up, instead of down, sending the signal that becoming an informed citizen is a valued accomplishment.
Golly gee whillikers, Mistah Goldberg, why don’t we have tests at the polls here in America? Although, I seem to remember a historical precedent for just such a thing. Why did this noble experiment not continue through until the modern day? Let’s go on to the Internets and check it out. Oooh, here we go Mister Goldberg, here’s the historical precedent for your idiotic moronic stupid-ass idea the Los Angeles Times printed up in a newspaper they actually sold to people for actual federally-backed U.S. currency:
In the 1890s, southern states began to systematically and completely disfranchise black males by imposing voter registration restrictions, such as literacy tests, poll taxes, the grandfather clause, and the white primary (only whites could vote in the Democratic Party primary contests). Such provisions did not violate the Fifteenth Amendment because they applied to all voters regardless of race. In reality, however, the provisions were more strictly enforced on blacks, especially in those areas dominated by lower-class whites. The so-called “understanding clause,” which allowed illiterate, white voters to register if they understood specific texts in the state constitution to the satisfaction of white registrars, was widely recognized to be a loophole provision for illiterate whites. It was crafted to protect the suffrage of those whites who might otherwise have been excluded from voting by the literacy qualification for registering to vote. In point of fact, tens of thousands of poor white farmers were also disfranchised because of non-payment of the poll tax, for which there were no loopholes provided.
It is important to understand that these new restrictions on voting were different from earlier restrictions in that they deprived the voter of the right to vote not at the ballot box (through force, intimidation, or fraud), but at the registration place. Before ballots were even cast, the new qualifications could be selectively applied to voters who failed to pass the tests established in the state’s constitution. This new method of controlling votes eliminated the need for violence against black voters, and the restrictions were often justified on these very grounds. In December of 1898, for example, the Richmond Times supported the move for disfranchisement in Virginia in the following words: “If we disfranchise the great body of Negroes, let us do so openly and above board and let there be an end of all sorts of jugglery.” This rationale indicates a clear motive to remove black votes altogether and to return to the status quo that existed prior to the introduction of black suffrage after the Civil War.
Yes, that’s right folks, Jonah Goldberg is arguing in favor of Jim Crow-style laws. In the pages of the “liberal” Los Angeles Times. And Goldberg is promoted as one of the intellectuals of the right. To them, this guy is a thinker.
Jonah Goldberg has a pre-Voting Rights Act thinking.
Pardon my French, but I wouldn’t even wipe my ass with the Los Angeles Times.
I think there should be restrictions on being able to vote; you must be smarted than Jonah Goldberg to vote.
Jonah G., another chickenhawk who would not serve his country. Maybe he would support the use of military service to qualify for voting.
How about only tax paying housejholds/citizens should be allowed to vote? Then if you have two years, say, where you aren’t retired etc and pay no taxes, no vote. At some point, the extra input of those who foot the bill should be recognized. Otherwise, those who won’t/don’t work will continually vote themselves more benefits to be seized from those who work.
“How about only tax paying housejholds/citizens should be allowed to vote?”
Under my, “You must be smarted than Jonah Goldbery to vote” plan, you’d be stripped of the right to vote.
How’s this, everyone who is affected by the government gets an equal say in who governs them.
How about only tax paying housejholds/citizens should be allowed to vote?
Have you ever considered reading the Constitution?
Actually, to the right Jonah IS a thinker. Less of a reflection on Jonah than on the right…
Dugger: That’s some mighty fine trolling there. Or maybe you’re part of the right that makes Jonah look smart by comparison.
Hey it was merely an intellectual proposition. Think of it as being in the same vein as Obama’s ‘promise’ to start a war with Pakistan.
I think there should be restrictions on being able to vote; you must be smarted than Jonah Goldberg to vote.
Well that leaves you out.
Oliver, I think you’re reaching a bit when you suggest Goldberg is arguing in favor of Jim Crow style laws. He makes the point that non-citizens have to pass a test in order to become a citizen and be able to vote. He’s also very right when he suggests a sizable portion of the country votes and yet have no clue as to why they’re voting for a particular person beyond party affiliation or have knowledge of how our system of government works.
Try not to turn the issue into another easy way to start throwing around the racism card. It’s weak.
Jay, I’d like to hear more of your thoughts on this “sizable portion of the country.” How sizable? Where do they live? How do you know they don’t deserve their vote?
Lets be honest. This article is knowingly unfair. I just recently criticized a right wing article for calling progressive science Eugenics, and must do the same here for calling a civic knowledge test a Jim Crow Law.
A test that could be fairly applied and not used to arbitrarily deny votes to minorities is a subject worthy of debate. I disagree with it on the grounds that in a country where only 50 percent go out to vote, a desire to vote for any reason is a worthy civic quality and should not be denied.
Personally, I find that making election day a civic/federal holiday and improving our level of discourse are much more effective ways of improving our elections, but this idea is not simply a racist one repackaged. To say so is truly unfair
Check out Bryan Caplan’s book, The Myth of the Rational Voter, which Goldberg mentions in passing. This sort of anti-democratic, conservative/libertarian intellectualism thing is growing lately. People act like it somehow *isn’t* crazy. Even John Stossel wrote a positive review of Caplan’s work today.
http://stevenwhite.typepad.com/steven_white/2007/08/if-john-stossel.html
http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=the_myth_of_bryan_caplans_seriousness
I’m down for a two-part test:
1) Did we find WMD in Iraq?
2) Did Saddam have anything to do with 9/11?
Failure to score 100% = lifetime disenfranchisement. Sorry for the troll-bait, BTW.
No, I’m with Oliver here that this is a bad idea repackaging of an even worse idea. Symphony mentions that if it were fairly applied and not used arbitrarily it could work, but what are the odds of that? Which ever party’s in power would inevitably dick the othe rparty over, just like they do with congressional redistricting or how the CA republicans are trying to re-do the electoral college so that democrats don’t get all those votes. It’s a dangerous tool to be ale to say who can and can’t vote and, call me paranoid, but one I don’t trust in the hands of most politicians.
It’s not that it’s similar to, or the same as, or similar in effect to a jim Crow law: it WAS a Jim Crow law.
And the problem with America is NOT that too many people are voting–it’s that not enough are.
Yeah, I’m sorry Jay but it isn’t my fault that the only law that Goldberg supports happens to be one that came up under Jim Crow.
I support giving Americans the first Monday off in November and making it mandatory for all adults to vote, similarly to how they do it in Australia.
“Why not test people about the basic functions of government?”
–i thought people already were tested. in high school civics class.
It’s no secret that as America’s demographic is changing, right wingers are trying to change voting rules in order to game the system in their favor.
Have you seen how a right wing Repub in California is trying to change the electoral college?
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2007/08/06/070806taco_talk_hertzberg
Um, unless English is suddenly imposed as the official language (constitutional amendment, folks), how many different translations will there need to be for the test? You think Nebraskans are going to have a Vietnamese exam special-ordered for Mr. Bui down the street? What grade will be considered passing? Can you imagine the type of shenanigans would be pulled trying to fail people? If Kathryn Harris didn’t want votes COUNTED correctly, what makes us think officials would be competent and fair judges of whether an African-American’s No. 3 pencil disenfranchises them?
Goldberg doesn’t care if voters are misinformed about 9/11 and Saddam– as long as voters are Bush-dumb he’s cheering them on. But after last November and the threat of Democratic landslide in ‘08, he starts talking about voter tests. Yeah, he’s a thinker alright…
Voter suppression– learn it, know it, live it.
Fun question: let’s say 100 math professors came up with 100 basic math questions, and one of those questions was selected at random and presented to the voter by a machine, and the voter had to answer correctly to vote. Would that be OK? (thanks, HuffPost commenters!)
I have a conservative friend who thinks that papers like the LA Times printing clowns like J. Goldberg is indicative of a liberal bias — they are trying to make conservatives look bad by printing clowns like J. Goldberg.
I’d believe it only if people knew enough about history to know why Goldberg’s idea is so awful (I reckon he’d flunk any fair test). As it is, people are so ignorant, they’d think this is a good idea.
Meanwhile, I remember the old Art Buchwald piece about the literacy test wherein the African-American flunks because he mistranslates one word in some ancient Sumerian text while the white is told that “k-a-t” is close enough to be the spelling of “cat” … an exaggeration possibly, but it gets the point across.
Do they publish Goldberg in the Humor section next to Dave Barry? Then that would make sense.
And most people think the wait time at the polls is too long already. Imagine if you had to wait for your test to be graded before you could go into a voting booth?
Personally, I wouldn’t be worried. If only 48% or so of the population votes anyway, and only maybe 35% of those would pass a basic civics test, the Democrats would maintain that “permanent majority” we’ve heard so much about.
Concern troll Dugger does not want Oliver to use the “race card.” Yes, Oliver, you don’t want to go around implying that there was something wrong with voter registration restrictions in the dear old southland.
I wish I was in the land of cotton, don’t you?
Yeah, I’m sorry Jay but it isn’t my fault that the only law that Goldberg supports happens to be one that came up under Jim Crow.
Oliver, you’re not making any sense. The Jim Crow era literacy tests were put in place specifically to keep black people from voting, so please, stop with the histrionics.
Goldberg says very clearly that in order to become a citizen which offers the privilege of voting, those people must pass a test in order to do so. Aside from voting, there aren’t many things in this country a non-citizen cannot do that a citizen can. Yet, in order to vote, they have to pass a test. So again, stop with the “RACIST!!!” drivel and open your mind a little as to what he is saying.
Doc, here is a link to the questions that people must answer in order to become a US citizen. I’ll bet money that most people who vote, couldn’t answer most of these questions correctly. Ask a few people who they voted for. Then ask them why. Most people will start by telling you why they didn’t vote for the other candidate. Press them on why they voted for the person they did and a good number of people will be able to tell you why.
Press them on why they voted for the person they did and a good number of people will be able to tell you why.
That should read:
Press them on why they voted for the person they did and a good number of people will NOT be able to tell you why.
Jay is right on as usual. Why is Oliver getting so uppity about this very thoughtful proposition from a very qualified and thoughtful and scholarly thinker?
“Press them on why they voted for the person they did and a good number of people will NOT be able to tell you why.”
Yes they will, they will say “he seemed like he would be a good guy to have a beer with” or “the other guy is too smart”. That’s why we’re stuck with this idiot. Any kind of literacy test will destroy the Republic party.
Ed: Good comment. Heh.
Any kind of literacy test will destroy the Republic party.
Yes, that was my point exactly.
Jay, my primary point is that voting is a human right. My secondary point is that America would benefit from it being mandatory, as in Australia and elsewhere. If you feel voters here are insufficiently educated (and we agree on this at least) then the solution is not voting tests, it’s better education.
Jay makes a really good point. Just because this exact legislation was deeply racist the last time, doesn’t mean it’ll be racist this time.
We could also keep an open mind about segregation. Who’s to say it’ll be a racist this time around? And sure, slavery was all whips and shackles a hundred plus years ago - but let’s not get all histrionic with this “RACIST” drivel before giving it another try.
Ah yes, let’s let the white folks decide whats best for them ole colored folks yet again. Not racist??? Yeah, right. Everyone citizen gets a vote, period. Only republicans (old white people) would be presumptuous enough to feel that they should doctor an election because they wont like the outcome.
Slavery lite.
The good Dr. nails it. Voting is a human right. The entire foundation of our government is predicated on the notion that the power of the state derives from the consent of the governed. Not the consent of the governed that passed Jonah Goldberg’s test.
This idea is stupid on its face (not unlike myself on so many Saturday nights). Who would devise such a test? Who would “grade” it? Do you think that civics is such an easy thing that we could devise questions that have easy, multiple choice answers? How many branches of government are there? What was the Civil War about? If Congress subpoenas a witness and that witness refuses to testify and the Attorney General refuses to enforce the subpoena can our system of government still be said to work?
See, there are no easy answers.
Jonah remains one of the few folks who still retains the power to render me speechless (albeit temporarily) with the stunning idiocy of some of their statements.
Wow… really - Wow.
norbizness,
I wonder what your answers to those questions would be?
Mine would be 1) YES*, and 2) NO.
*Of course, some people still have trouble understanding that the presence of sarin and cyclosarin along with thousands of chemical protective suits and field first aid kits for nerve gas exposure actually counts as “yes, we found evidence of chemical weapons.”
At first, when reading Jonah’s actual article, I felt some compassion for his words. Clearly, I am constantly stunned by the constant inanity and stupidity that confronts us on daily basis. However, the sad truth is that this is a free society, where people, no matter how dumb they are, are free to do as they please. As long as they pay their taxes.
And, strangely, the stupidest people can somehow remember to pay these taxes.
Give it up mike. Even “the decider” admitted there were no WMD’s in Iraq. I guess you fail the test. No vote for you! Come back…Never!
I can’t say it any better than Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr
Our Voting System Needs A New Constitutional Foundation
And you’d fail, Mike, since the question was whether we found any WMD.
Pardon my French, but I wouldn’t even wipe my ass with the Los Angeles Times.
Oh, I would.
Jay’s usual idiocy notwithstanding, anyone who knows anything about the history of this nation — hell, the history of humanity in general — and believes for a microsecond that this would not be an excuse to keep the “undesirables” from the polls (whether they be black, hispanic, Democrats, etc.) is living in Fairy Gumdrop Land.
What amazes me is how little the conservatives appreciate how this could be turned around on them: what if the questions include things like “Who was Cesar Chavez?”, “What famous US President described ‘Birth of a Nation’ as truth written with lightning?”, “What year did white US citizens burn down ‘Black Wall Street’ and murder most of its inhabitants”, or “What recent US President had a grandfather who supplied the Nazis in time of war?” I think some of rightards might find the test not so easy to pass themselves. Of course Doughbob Loadpants already fails because he clearly isn’t already familiar with recent Constitutional amendments…
“I think there should be restrictions on being able to vote; you must be smarted than Jonah Goldberg to vote.”
“Well that leaves you out.”
Fuck you, Jay. When was the last time you were right about anything here? The fact that you can’t see the parallel between Jonah’s proposal and the old Jim Crow laws just proves you are a fucking moron.
You’re just a 25%er and your opinions means little now and after ‘08 they will mean nothing.
“*Of course, some people still have trouble understanding that the presence of sarin and cyclosarin along with thousands of chemical protective suits and field first aid kits for nerve gas exposure actually counts as “yes, we found evidence of chemical weapons.”"
You are fucking retarded, Mike, and people like you should be committed to metal homes to stop you from hurting yourself.
Traces of sarin and cyclosarin can’t cause mass destruction, or any destruction, therefore they are not WMD.
Got it?
If not, fuck off.
The Jim Crow era literacy tests were put in place specifically to keep black people from voting, so please, stop with the histrionics.
What makes you so goddamn sure that they won’t be used ina similar way if enacted again? Did MLK’s “I had a dream” speach magically cure all racism in the country?
Ironically, under these restrictions, Jonah Goldberg himself would be too stupid to vote.
The pantload’s piece also ran in the Philadelphia Inquirer. I don’t know why these wingnut pundits get so much air-time and so many inches on the opinion page after years of being dead wrong on the major issues. The Inquirer devotes about 70 percent of its editorial pages spreading GOP talking points as the Tierney ownership flies it into the ground. I would normally hate to see my town’s newspaper fail, but these people deserve it.
I’m beginning to get the feeling that “Conservatives” are nothing more than racist in Conservative clothing. Tell me its not true? I mean, to equate conservatism with racism and bigotry is wrong even though everything that has to do with improving the lives of the least of us is always blocked by this morally and religiously superior people who are concerned about family values.
As an African-American are they concerned about my family values? Are they concerned about working class poor people who get up every day and go to jobs they are earnestly and honestly performing without benefit of health insurance, day care and those “liberal” programs that would improve their quality of life. I mean why would a conservative want to help someone when they should pull themselves up by their bootstraps as all conservatives do and forget about any handouts - right?
Conservatism is nothing more than a refined way of saying, I am a selfish prick who cares about nobody but people who look and act like me, who through connections get jobs they are not entitled to, yet look down on others with greater skills, who use their version of affirmative action to get to the same place they already are, who disdain anyone who doesn’t have what they have, and try their best to keep them from getting it, as only the entitled should be privvy to those goodies.
Conservatism is mean, cold-hearted and vicious and I would not want to be associated with anyone who now calls him/herself one.
Thanks for the new phrase, “Bush-Dumb”.
Example: “You’re not an idiot, your Bush-dumb.”
Damn!!
I would be happy to say that a civics test would be a good idea, but such good ideas are sheep in wolve’s clothing when it comes from people like Jonah Goldberg.
Just like the reduced violence against blacks was used to justify Jim Crow laws, this is a similar meme. History is chock full of examples of this kind, and we progressive wring our hands over the merits of such ideas. There are no merits, because the intent is not what he says it is, and it never was.
Rationalize all you want, but GOP fears the unwashed masses, and that is what they erect walls against, with help from corporate MSM, which is only progressive as long as there’s money to be had in it.
After all the obvious cases of our government being institutionalised toward one party rule by the GOP, using caging and all sorts of other means of voter disenfranchisement, how can ANYONE take this putz seriously?
Here’s a way this could work: everyone who fails the literacy test and cannot vote is not obligated to follow the laws of the land or pay any taxes.
After all, they’re not citizens anymore, are they?
I love how the wing-nuts think that because poor people of color vote overwhelmingly Democrat, that they must somehow be stupid or not know why they’re voting for a particular person. Guess what Goldberg, those people know more about why and whom their voting than the poor white southerners who consistently vote AGAINST their economic interests in the name of some idiotic ideology! They’re still voting their racist tendencies instead of their self interest. To me that is just plain dumb.
“The Jim Crow era literacy tests were put in place specifically to keep black people from voting, so please, stop with the histrionics.”
Yeah, and the people who advocated it and supported went around telling everyone just that … please jay, literacy tests in the jim crow era were defended on the same grounds that Goldberg is arguing for his version of the same thing: the lofty goal of raising the “quality” of the electorate. I’m not saying Goldberg wants to keep blacks from voting … he wants to keep a whole host of different people from voting.
The immigration test issue is simply bullshit. We don’t test immigrants on American history to judge them worthy of voting. We test them to judge their most basic commitment to becoming citizens and that they understand the basic principles of our government.
American citizens are taught this shit in elementary and high school. If they fail civics, do we strip them of their citizenship? No.
One thing overlooked in Jonah’s brilliant plan is that voting is run by the states. Is each state going to have to come up with their own, individual test? What a fucking nightmare that would be. Or would the typically states rights conservatives argue that the federal government should hand down a uniform test for all states to follow?
Voting is a right and every adult should be allowed to vote and it should be made as easy as possible for them to do so.
Jay is an idiot but he should still be allowed to vote.
Actually, the editorial swing of the Los Angeles Times was due to the sale of the Times to the Tribune organization, which does not support the editorial policy of the previous Times owners, and made that very clear by firing Robert Scheer from the editorial pages to be replaced by the grating Goldberg.
The Times still has a great reportage staff, but the editorial swing to the Right was enough for many long time subscribers, such as myself to say, “Addios,” to the Times. And I have discovered I can get along very nicely without the daily Times, thanks to the numerous news outlets available on the net. And as a bonus, I can get Robert Scheer for free at Truthdig. So thank you to the Tribune group for your right wing bias. You’re saving me a bit of change every week.
I read J. Goldberg’s article. I agree that implementing ANY conditions like this as a prerequisite to register to vote is akin to Jim Crow. But there is no denying that J. Goldberg has a point about the American public’s knowledge of civics. His argument that a test would foster more debate is quite lame and would in fact cause less participation in the political process! People can vote now without a test and they don’t do it!
The real question is what will it take to get more people involved in the political process. Passing a civics test does NOT make you an informed citizen! The other point I would make is that J. Goldberg approaches voting as a type of special privilege like driving. Voting and engaging in the political process was seen by the founding fathers as a duty and part of a shared responsibility of the people. Until we collectively understand that fact we will continue to see an erosion of our Constitutional rights and an imbalance of power among the branches of government….and idiots writing opinion articles like J. Goldberg!
Came here from the UK via C & L.
I’m impressed with the way you used a bludgeon and a rapier at the same time.
A bloody touche, I salute you.
He really is a inapt tosser isn’t he? Tee hee.
Came here from the UK via C & L.
I’m impressed with the way you used a bludgeon and a rapier at the same time.
A bloody touche, I salute you.
He really is a inapt tosser isn’t he? Tee hee.
My bad, double post.
Excuse: childish frustration waiting.
One of Golberg’s headlines put in an appearance on Leno recently:
http://www.nbc.com/The_Tonight_Show_with_Jay_Leno/headlines/H_3398/02.shtml#headline
Would you need to pass such an exam in order to hold office. Hypothetically, would a vice-presidential candidate be tested on which branch of government he belong to?
Actually I’m grateful to Jonah for revealing what conservatives are REALLY thinking.
yes, and that point of view is being expressed by…. JONAH GOLDBERG, perhaps the 2nd stupidest fucking person on the face of the earth.
It alternately amuses me and dismays me that Jonah Goldberg is considered an intellectual powerhouse by the right. I’m amused the righties think so. I’m dismayed the MSM treat him as such.
Thad’s Leno headline link explains it all. Goldberg wants to eliminate public schools, where students would learn about basic civics, the Voting Rights Act, and why Goldberg is a moron.
(Goldberg has previously shown he doesn’t understand the Constitution, effectively arguing that Freedom of Religion allows someone to violate someone else’s civil rights.)
It alternately amuses me and dismays me that Jonah Goldberg is considered an intellectual powerhouse by the right.
Well, by comparison to the other members of the right…
If you only have to be smarter than DoughBlob to vote, that would enfranchise all the rocks in the country.