In 1964 the Goldwater campaign announced the take over of the Republican party by the far-right John Birchers, racists, and conservatives. For better or worse over the next 40+ years they grabbed power like never before and tried their damnedest to turn America to the right.
I think the Bush presidency is going to turn out to be the left’s 1964.
Young Americans are more likely than the general public to favor a
government-run universal health care insurance system, an open-door
policy on immigration and the legalization of gay marriage, according to a New York Times/CBS
News/MTV poll. The poll also found that they are more likely to say the
war in Iraq is heading to a successful conclusion.
More than half of Americans ages 17 to 29 — 54 percent — say they intend to vote for a Democrat for president in 2008. They share with the public at large a negative view of President Bush, who has a 28 percent approval rating with this group, and of the Republican Party. They hold a markedly more positive view of Democrats than they do of Republicans.Among this age group, Mr. Bush’s job approval rating after the attacks of Sept. 11 was more than 80 percent. Over the course of the next three years, it drifted downward leading into the presidential election of 2004, when 4 of 10 young Americans said they approved how Mr. Bush was handling his job.
At a time when Democrats have made gains after years in which Republicans have dominated Washington, young Americans appear to lean slightly more to the left than the general population: 28 percent described themselves as liberal, compared with 20 percent of the nation at large. And 27 percent called themselves conservative, compared with 32 percent of the general public.
My teens and early twenties were spent under the Clinton presidency, and even with a Republican congress you figured that it would take a whole lot to screw up the country. Whoops. For a considerable amount of Americans, their politically formative years have been the Bush years and they’ve seen just what kind of damage can be done to a nation from one man and his party. To a lot of them they simply cannot understand the sort of experiments that had to be done to your mind in order to vote Republican. I think this will work out well.
Thanks, President Bush.
The young folks hate our health care system already, and these are people who probably aren’t even paying the outrageous deductibles and monthly fees that go with privatized health care. I think the universal health care number will only go up. Hooray! Thanks, Republicans!
How will America ever be as great as Canada and Britain without a National Health Care System?
Hehe
“Mr. Obama has suggested that he used cocaine as a young man.”
Obama was a coke head. I didn’t know that.
Anyway. 1964 was no watershed either way. It was an anomaly. Moderates before and moderates after -= both sides. LBJ, a moderate Dem, prosecuted the war and so did his moderate Republican successor – who was reelected by a landslide. The big shift came with the advent of the McGovernites gaining control of the Dem party in thr early 70s and the Reagan revolution on the R side a little later,
How about you crack a history book or 2, Oliver
link
link
‘64 was where the Reagan revolution started, Dugger. And since apparently you guys like to argue by posting Amazon links:
link
Also, wasn’t one of you yammering about how there was no conservative “movement” in this country?
That was Jay, I think, Dr. A.
Frank, how is that even sarcastic?
I think intelligent people realize that this country is better off when it isn’t run by ideologues who make decisions based on their hard core beliefs, rather than through wisdom.
This is why the radical right Repubs have failed.
They had their 6 year shot, and they blew it.
They’ve been exposed.
Nobody likes them anymore.
Obama was a coke head. I didn’t know that.
So was Bush. But you knew that, didn’t you?
“How will America ever be as great as Canada and Britain without a National Health Care System?”
How will Frank defend this bigotted statement? How will he try and convince himself he’s the good guy unfairly attacked by mean bullies?
Canada and Britain and other Western countries are way ahead of the US in pre- and post-natal care, infant mortality, life expectancy, and overall quality of life.
But of course you knew that before you posted your ignorant statement, Frank, right? Riiiight! wingnut, all the way!
On the overall topic, I heard a die-hard Republican on C-Span this morning say that the Bush Presidency has been an unqualified disaster for his party, and that he realizes now Bush was never a Conservative.
Feels to me like the 85% approval among GOP diehards that Bush so relied on all these years is gone.
And like Ollie says, many signs among the young that Liberal Progressive values, Green values are the popular thing to be now.
I remember during the heyday of the Conservative movement in ‘92 and ‘93 when Ayn Rand, Gordon Gekko, and Alex on Family Ties resonated with a lot of young people: Be tough, be determined, get busy, get your stock options, and get your millions now.
That kind of selfish, me-first, mine-first attitude seems as dated today as the Material Girl, square-shoulder padded jackets, and skinny ties.
The young people I talk to today are anti-war, talk about the Environment, about serious values, about making the world better. That’s what young people are SUPPOSED to talk about.
The pendulum is swinging back to normal after having swung to the right all those years.
Someone tell Gingrich, Santorum, and Thompson the bus left a year ago, ok? LOL!
I remember during the heyday of the Conservative movement in ‘92 and ‘93
Huh?
You mean when the Conservative Pres. Clinton was treating the Oval Office like the back of a pick up?
As for Canada and Britain, people aren’t breaking their necks to go there, even with the fabled NHS, or One – Payer – Service.
Frank, you are so fucking ignorant.
EVERY fucking statement out of your mouth could come straight out of a programmed Glenn Beck/Limbaugh/Hannity radio comment.
Here, stupid, let me educate you:
NY Times link
“…But in recent years, immigration lawyers and labor market analysts say, the Canadian system has become an immovable beast, with a backlog of more than 800,000 applications and waits of four years or more…”
Now thank me very much. Moron.
No, that the US’s healthcare system sucks so much that the overspill is hurting Canada’s superior system.
“C.S., do you have Star Wars pajamas and Star Trek bed sheets or the other way around? Are you with Landrau ?”
Are you making fun of Star Wars now?
Anything to avoid the topic at hand.
“As for Canada and Britain, people aren’t breaking their necks to go there,”
Actually, they are. We have very high immagration given our population.
But don’t let the facts get in the way of your hatred, bigots never do.
I’ll see you and raise you, “Named for a Dead Guy”:
USA Today
For all of you who were offended by my remarks about Canada and Britain, there is nothing bigoted about pointing out that the United States is the greatest country in the world, and it didn’t get that way because of National Health Care.
When the truth is told about exactly who these people are that “don’t have health care”, your plans to socialize medicine will be gone like the Dodo.
Frank, do you understand that in order to refute an argument that you should, I dunno, refute it? This is common knowledge that in ‘64 the “conservatives” took over the GOP, Nixon started the appeal to them, and Reagan was their big break-through. These are simple basic facts that aren’t up for debate in the least. The books you posted don’t really have a thing to do with this.
‘Taters, you seem to be having trouble keeping up. Let me help:
Frank said: “As for Canada and Britain, people aren’t breaking their necks to go there…”
Wellstone replied: “…But in recent years, immigration lawyers and labor market analysts say, the Canadian system has become an immovable beast, with a backlog of more than 800,000 applications and waits of four years or more…”
That’s where you blundered in. If you click the little underlined linky thing, you’ll see that the Canadian backlog is for the immigration system, not the healthcare system.
You’re so welcome!
So … the Democratics are advocating for a health care system that will result in 4-year waiting periods? Sign me up!!!
What’s that you say? The waiting periods are due to folks immigrating into Canada in order to partake of their health care? Well all right then, I guess I’m joining the push for USA Universal care. Because lord knows immigration isn’t an issue in this country already…
When the truth is told about exactly who these people are that “don’t have health care”, your plans to socialize medicine will be gone like the Dodo.
I can’t wait. Go ahead and tell us now, willya? Who are they? I can’t stand the suspense!
Given your promise that knowing who they are will cause the extinction of “plans to socialize medicine,” they must be people I don’t care about and would probably be better off dead, yes?
OH NOES NOT SOCIALIZATION
Honest to God.
Wingnuttia just cannot handle much less grasp the concept of “fact” as opposed to “opinion”, can they?
It’s surreal.
And what is contributing to this influx of immigration – “free” health care, perhaps.
I dunno. Take it up with Frank. He’s the one who said: “As for Canada and Britain, people aren’t breaking their necks to go there, even with the fabled NHS, or One – Payer – Service.”
Now you’re saying exactly the opposite. Wingnut fight, everybody!
I believe Nader made a similar point during his ‘00 run — that a Bush presidency would rally the liberal base more than a Gore presidency.
I guess you can call it a silver lining, but it’s hard for me to believe it’s worth it.
I also don’t have much confidence in our generation learning any lasting lessons — there’s an immediate backlash against Bush’s party underway, but I don’t know how long it will last. Remember that it’s the people who should have learned from the Nixon era who helped put Bush in office.
“If you’re not a liberal when you’re 20, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative when you’re 40, you have no head.”
‘Taters wrote:
“Is it a coincidence that here in Massachusetts (Lowell and Lawrence) have enormous Asian welfare communities.”
I call. I want to see your cards on that claim.
“If you’re not a liberal when you’re 20, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative when you’re 40, you have no head.”
Farris, the original quote said “Republican,” not “liberal.” And it was said by a French guy, Francois Guizot.
“This is common knowledge that in ‘64 the “conservatives” took over the GOP, Nixon started the appeal to them, and Reagan was their big break-through.”
OW, better stick to calling Fox commentators Nazis. Your understanding of the Rpublican PArty is nil. Goldwater won in 1964 and has his man, Dean Burch, installed as party chair. In turn, Burch was ousted by moderates a year later and replaced with a moderate from Ohio – Ray Bliss. I give you an AUH2O from Time:
Angered by the G.O.P. moderates’ drive to oust Dean Burch, his hand-picked Republican national chairman, Barry Goldwater flared to a friend last month: “I may not be able to keep Burch in, but I’m sure as hell not going to let Rockefeller name Ray Bliss.”
(Of course, Bliss became Party chairman and Nixon, a moderate, won the next two elections).
You should, I dunno, apologize to frank.
I think as the web gains increasing significance in peoples lives, conservative influence will wither away. Conservatives talk a good game when it is done in a top down model like talk radio or cable news, but when you have a platform like the web that allows instantaneous fact checking and debunking, suddenly conservatives are instantly made to look the part of the bed wetting two year olds they have always been. It has been, and will continue to be, great fun to kick conservatives out of office in all levels of government and laugh at their poor grasp of reality.
Oliver has seen those references before.
One is a book by a man who is a scholar on Hoover the politician. His book is about how conservative intellectualism replaced liberal intellectualism on the American political scene.
See also William F. Buckley’s “Up from Liberalism”, written well before Goldwater’s loss to Johnson.
The other book was written by a man on the inside, who was aware of all the machinations that brought the Conservative Party to power, and made the conservatives influential in the Republican Party.
Oliver also doesn’t know that he is dismissing my personal experience in the Jim Buckley for Senator campaign in 1970.
He won.
Dugger, Pigs will be flying over Hell’s hockey games, before that happens.
Meanwhile, There is more fun ahead.
The following groups are uninsured:
1) People who are eligible for Medicaid and / or Medicare but have failed to, or don’t know how to apply. Mostly the elderly, here. You caring, compassionate liberals might want to do some real good and check into that.
2) People who are in fairly good health, and pay their own rare medical expenses.
3) And, of course, people that are not eligible for State – paid medical insurance because they are not legal residents. That’s about, what? 10 million or so?
For more information on Medical Insurance, and what really matters,
See here
and here
Once again, Frank, your links lead to articles that aren’t germane. And Kling’s article was especially stupid.
Really, I was expecting your links to provide sources for this:
The following groups are uninsured:
Silly me.
Frank are you actually arguing against nationalized health care? Really?
Please expound further on how the United States is the greatest country in the world.
For more information on Medical Insurance, and what really matters
That’s what I said, and that’s what they were.
I had already named a huge group of uninsured people that aren’t “really” uninsured.
Dave in ME: Question 1: Yes
Question 2: Yes
As to “how the United States is the greatest country in the world”, people who know, know; people who don’t know,probably never will.
Yes, he’s arguing against basic rights again, on the classic conservative principle that the more you need help, the less you deserve it.
Wow – with your answers Frank you have confirmed yourself as a brilliant conservative theorist.
Except substitute “brilliant conservative theorist” with dumbfuck mouthbreathing ankle biting doucenozzle of conservative idiocy…………….
Hey, Dave, If you want the answer to a question, you have to ask it.
If, of course, I choose to answer it.
Guess how good your chances are?
The Repubs succesfully made the word “Liberal” a dirty word through the media (which is supposed to be “Librul”, remember?).
But it’s had a boomerang effect.
Fox “News” played a big part in all of this. They also played a big part in getting Bush (s)elected and the Repub Congress majority.
But thanks to the success of right wing media outlets in getting Repubs elected, they’ve also shown the country how woefully inept at governing right wing Repub ideologues are.
They shot themselves in the foot.
Sure, they made “Liberal” a dirty word.
But now “Republican” is a dirty word.
When people are asked if they are a Republican today a large majority say no f_cking way”!
“No, I’m making fun of you. Your web site is a hoot. You must be one serious geek.”
That depends on your definition of serious. My websites should not be taken serious in any way, shape, or form.
But I freely admit I’m a geek.
OxyCon: Your history is way out of wack. Cable TV wasn’t even in Ted Turner’s dreams, when liberal became a dirty word. That happened in the early 70’s.
You might need a little back up to support a statement like, “When people are asked if they are a Republican today a large majority say no f_cking way”!
That’s assuming, of course, that any of them would say “no fucking way”
=;-}
“I’ll see you and raise you, “Named for a Dead Guy”:
USA Today”
So a nation one-ninth the size of the United States has a backlog larger that yours. I would also point out that yours is that large only through artificial means. (A restricted supply and not a high demand.)
“As to “how the United States is the greatest country in the world”, people who know, know; people who don’t know,probably never will.”
This is like your victory in Iraq plan. You can’t define it, there’s no way to work toward it, but you’ll get there, eventually, if we wait long enough.
If you can’t define what makes the United States the best and still claim it is, that’s nationalism, which is a warning sign of fascism.
SaveFarris: “So … the Democratics are advocating for a health care system that will result in 4-year waiting periods? Sign me up!!!
What’s that you say? The waiting periods are due to folks immigrating into Canada in order to partake of their health care?”
No Farris, you fucking moron, there is a four-year waiting list to immigrate into Canada.
Now you should shut the fuck up, cause you have made Frank look smart by comparison. I hope you are happy.
Incidentally, for the record, I have never been very happy with the way GW has been running the country.
I am very happy that he is standing fast in Iraq,and I sincerely hope that he has not trashed the conservative dream. I think the liberal monopoly is broken, though, and the idea of a three decade dynasty ever occurring again is over on both sides of the aisle.
If you can’t define what makes the United States the best and still claim it is, that’s nationalism
Wrong on two counts. I was saying that I wouldn’t, not that I couldn’t.
And your definition is to be expected from a guy whose country’s claim to fame is that their name is in one of our sodas.
A 30 year Democratic dynasty is in the making, due solely to the effect of having Bush as president with a compliant Republican Congress for the first 6 years. The Republicans had absolute control of the federal government and showed in everything they touched, how fucking stupid the conservative movement is. A vast majority of Americans are in favor of gay rights, are in favor of restricting access to guns, are in favor of abortion rights, are in favor of nationalized health care and are in favor of strong environmental regulations. All those things and many more are diametrically opposed by conservatives, and the American people are coming to realize that in greater and greater numbers. It’s pretty simple really. Politics is like driving, put it in R to go backwards or D to move forward. Braindead fucktard asshats like Frank are incapable of seeing how wrong they have been and for how long, hence the declining influence of conservatism.
I have an opinion and everyone is entitled to it right now!
The pivotal objection to Single-Payer seems to be the idea of having to wait a year and a half just to get a broken arm treated or something. And while they can cite instances of this happening it seems to me that, if it were part of a significant trend, satisfaction with that program would be systemically lower than it is, but lets presume thats a real problem.
Are you saying that we, as Americans, citizens of the greatest country in the history of the universe infinity plus one, can’t figure out a way to make it work for us, such that we’re all healthy? Well in that case, why do you think so poorly of America you terrorist fascist queer?
Yes, because Goldwater meant nothing. It’s just happenstance that the people who became part of his movement eventually elected a president or two. Nope, that didn’t happen because some guy on a website said it didn’t.
Poor Nimmer. His/her ignrance of our system of government is matched only by OWs ignorance of Republican history.
There is so right to health care in this country. You conflate something needed or ‘nice to have’ with a right. The two things are different.
As a aconservative, I consider it immoral for the government, at the point of a gun, to force me to GIVE the fruits of my hard earned labor to someone else. You go out and got to school/med school for ten years and work your butt off and then treat yourself.
In other words, public health is a private matter.
“If you can’t define what makes the United States the best and still claim it is, that’s nationalism”
“Wrong on two counts. I was saying that I wouldn’t, not that I couldn’t.”
You are a liar, Frank. A liar and a bigot.
“And your definition is to be expected from a guy whose country’s claim to fame is that their name is in one of our sodas.”
You really know nothing about Canada, do you Frank?
Let me rephrase that.
You really know nothing, do you Frank?
“As a aconservative, I consider it immoral for the government, at the point of a gun, to force me to GIVE the fruits of my hard earned labor to someone else.”
Then move to another country, fuckwit. Taxes are not theft at gun point, they are dues you pay to be in the country you choose.
Think the dues are too high or you are not getting your money’s worth, then move. Find another country that’s better. There are a few places out there that have no taxes at all.
It’s the ultimate in free market forces.
“There is so right to health care in this country.” I know. There should be. There’s no reason for their not to be. Just because you still refuse to write it into law, doesn’t mean that health care isn’t a basic right.
“As a conservative, I consider it immoral for the government, at the point of a gun, to force me to GIVE the fruits of my hard earned labor to someone else. You go out and got to school/med school for ten years and work your butt off and then treat yourself.”
And that makes you a selfish piece of shit.
Conservatism is always about the Conservative first, preferably as the victim of something, everyone else second, if that. You think you’re the poor poor victim because you have to pay taxes, preferably based on your income and earnings. You don’t think the people who, through no fault of their own, have low income and low earnings, and basically live in poverty, are the victim because they can’t afford life-saving surgery and there’s no way of getting it free-at-point-of-delivery because poor wickle woo didn’t want to pay your fucking taxes just in case the Government, who were going to get it anyway, use it for the betterment of society as a whole, rather than you specifically.
The more you need help, the less you deserve it. Fuck you if you’re poor, it’s presumably your own fault, go and spontaneously become a Doctor, or eat cake or something. It’s immoral for the Government to give a fuck about anyone but ME ME ME.
To reiterate: you’re a selfish piece of shit. And that’s not a good basis for public policy.
Clem, where’s that legendary Canadian sense of humor, eh?
National Health Care can’t be “made” to work, any more than “rent control” can lower rent.
David in ME: Perhaps you’ll recall that the Republicans were in charge of both Houses of Congress, when President Bush was handily re – elected in 2004.
Pres. Clinton pretended to be whatever he needed to be, in order to stay popular. If there is someone out there who can do that – and it’s not Sen. Clinton — you’ll get your fantasy 7 term dynasty.
But, while we are waiting, please hold your breath.
Hey C.S., speaking as an American Southerner who’s visited Ontario and BC, I’d like to say that I’ve found Canada to be a lovely country full of courteous, friendly people. Also, I’ve occasionally had reason to work with public servants in the various ministries and at the embassy, and they were exceedingly polite and professional. Frankly, I can’t imagine having a better country as a neighbor. I apologize that the right wing in this country has confused patriotism with narcissism and self-deception.
Wow – with your answers Frank you have confirmed yourself as a brilliant conservative theorist.
Except substitute “brilliant conservative theorist” with dumbfuck mouthbreathing ankle biting doucenozzle of conservative idiocy…………….
Posted by: Dave in ME |
this from a guy whose never read Frank before. So it’s not just us.
Dugger: “Poor Nimmer. His/her ignrance [sic] of our system of government is matched only by OWs [sic] ignorance of Republican history.
There is so [sic] right to health care in this country. You conflate something needed or ‘nice to have’ with a right. The two things are different.”
Jefferson: “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.”
I’m going to have to go with health care falling under the headings “life”, “safety”, and “happiness”.
Frank hates the laboratories of democracy. Ideology tells him what to do rather than practical reality. I say we go with the French model.
So it’s not just us.
Oh, no there is a generous supply of foulmouthed left wing boobs on this blog.
Are you really a newcomer? You will feel quite at home here. No thinking required, in fact, it can prove to be an obstacle for a liberal, eh, Duros?
Doctor AGH roots for the Reign of Terror and M’sieu Guillotine.
I don’t think he meant that model. I think he meant the current one, which is, what, number five now? Also it’s Madame Guillotine, she’s a girl.
Thad said
“I’m going to have to go with health care falling under the headings “life”, “safety”, and “happiness”.”
You misquoted your own quote. But no place does that quote say you have a right to somebody esle’s sweat equity. Just think about it Thad. You can sit on your butt all day watching say Springer while your neighbor is out busting his butt manufacturing aspirin. Is it right that you go over at 7Pm and take all the aspirin he has manufactured that day?
Thre isn’t and never was a ‘right’ to health care. Nimmer is not smart enough to realize that. maybe you are.
Perhaps you’ll recall that the Republicans were in charge of both Houses of Congress, when President Bush was handily re – elected in 2004.
Yes, and they were in charge of both houses when Clinton was pres. And they still got nothing done. so are you saying that like it’s a good thing?
Hey, CS, I bet Frank knows more about Canada than GOP presidential hopeful Mike Huckabee.
And, by the way, congratulations on preserving the national igloo!
No thinking required, in fact, it can prove to be an obstacle for a liberal, eh, Duros?
Bwaha! You slay me, sir.
“You misquoted your own quote. But no place does that quote say you have a right to somebody esle’s sweat equity.”
See? It’s all from the basic standpoint of I AM THE VICTIM.
Is it right that you go over at 7Pm and take all the aspirin he has manufactured that day?
That’s the stupidest thing I’ve read today.
No one is asking you to do any heavy lifting, Dugger.
Do you object to unemployment insurance? Social Security? Medicare/Medicaid? Veteran’s benefits? Do you pay taxes at all? (IRS, please take note)
Have you yourself ever been unemployed and had to collect? If the answer is yes, then I want my money back, asshole, you didn’t work to deserve it.
By the way, Aspirin is non-prescription medicine, avaiable over the counter. Not supplied by the NHS. You buy it yourself. With money. Are you suggesting that unless you made them yourself with the sweat of your brow, you shouldn’t be allowed to buy basic goods?
Duros, I expect he’d say “yes” to all of those up to the unemployed bit.
Duros: Just giving you the respect you deserve. How did Dave’s ass taste?
Thanks for the correction, Nim. That was your life’s purpose. You may die now.
Soon.
Please.
How did Dave’s ass taste?
Good one, Frank. You’re such a class act.
neener-neener
Conversely, if someone asks me for an aspirin, I’ll give it to them.
My life’s purpose is to relaunch Green Lantern with the focus on Alan Scott.
Well, okay, how about this? Frank is a retired IRS employee and former soldier who is on Medicare and/or VA benefits. Does he deserve the “sweat from your brow”, Dugger? Shit, why don’t you send him the money out of your pocket, up there in New Rochelle?
Or perhaps at 60 years old, he should just go to med schoola nd be dr. and treat himself?
Mike Huckabee congratulates Canada on “preserving the national igloo.”
Heh. See what I did there? I typed all wrong, so’s dugger could read it better.
Yeah, that’s it.
No, Frank was in ‘Nam, so he’s automatically allowed anything he wants, ever, under Dugger’s value system.
(not to denigrate his service, I certainly couldn’t have got through it myself)
Well, techinically, Dugger is correct–there is no “right” to health care. There’s also no right to have a job, live in a house with indoor plumbing, or eat.
However, there is such a thing as good policy. The health of the country’s citizens is an appropriate concern that can be addressed by collective effort.
You should, I dunno, apologize to frank.
Ok.
Frank, I’m sorry you’re a douchebag. I forgive you.
And to all the conservative trolls here: Why just “socialized medicine”? Why not also fight against socialized education, socialized security, socialized transportation, and socialized vengence?
I agree. Somehow “the greatest country in the world with one of the highest infant mortality rates” kinda doesn’t have a good ring to it.
And socialized italics?
off?
Beat me to the draw again, Duros.
It’s the infants’ own fault for being unemployed.
I usually don’t respond to ignorant trolls, because you can’t get through to partisan right wing ideologues, so it’s a waste of time.
But Frank wanted some “back-up” of the facts.
Well, here’s some from a know partisan Repub outfit which “backs up” my earlier comment:
A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey of 15,000 adults in May found that just 30.8% now say they’re Republicans. That’s down slightly from last month and down more than six percentage points from the GOP peak of 37.3% during Election 2004. The number of Republicans has been falling fairly steadily since the middle of 2005.
link
Here’s some more “back-up” on how America has turned away from the Repubs:
Only 24% in the poll identify themselves as Republicans, down from 31% just before the election. That’s the smallest percentage since December 1998, when only 20% said they were Republicans. The post-election dropoff is not unusual for a losing party; self-identified Democrats fell from 34% to 28% in 1994, when Republicans seized Congress.
Democrats stayed relatively constant, edging from 34% to 35%.
link
And more:
April 13, 2007
Political Environment Continues to Favor Democrats
By 50% to 35% margin, Americans want to see Democrats win in 2008
by Jeffrey M. Jones
GALLUP NEWS SERVICE
PRINCETON, NJ — Recent Gallup polling continues to show a favorable political environment for the Democratic Party. Democrats maintained a significant advantage in partisan identification throughout the first quarter of 2007. Additionally, by a sizable margin, Americans say they would rather see the Democrats than the Republicans win the 2008 presidential election. A ray of hope for Republicans exists in that their leading presidential contenders are currently viewed more positively by Americans than the leading Democratic presidential contenders. Also, the Republican candidates are highly competitive with the Democratic candidates in head-to-head match-ups.
Party Support
During the first quarter of 2007, an average of 33% of Americans identified as Democrats, 28% as Republicans, and 38% as independents. Several things are notable about these numbers.
First, 28% is the lowest percentage of self-identified Republicans in any quarter since the second quarter of 1999.
link
Dugger: “You misquoted your own quote.”
Pardon?
Dugger: “You can sit on your butt all day watching say Springer while your neighbor is out busting his butt manufacturing aspirin. Is it right that you go over at 7Pm and take all the aspirin he has manufactured that day?”
Sorry, but I don’t debate people who argue by analogy. Argument by analogy is for people who can’t debate a subject on its own merits.
Your prediction is a little late, Oliver. MoveOn.org declared their ownership of the Democrat party last year.
Duros62 | Jun 27, 2007 5:34:34 PM
Working to improve the Blog 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
We’ve been through this before, and you denied you ever did it.
BTW, I am in school, and I will be a therapist in about a year. I will treat any of you for free, since nothing could better define pro bono than straightening out as many of you as possible before you get one day older.
Frank, I’m sorry you’re a douche bag.
Zython, I’m glad you’re a douche bag.
No thanks Frank, don’t think I need marriage advice from someone who couldn’t keep his own going. Maybe the best advice to keeping my marriage together is to not be like you.
“Clem, where’s that legendary Canadian sense of humor, eh?”
If your comment about Canada Dry was in fact a joke, wouldn’t be able to tell cause of all the truly retarded things you’ve said on this blog in the past.
“National Health Care can’t be ‘made’ to work, any more than ‘rent control’ can lower rent.”
Except it does. It works in plenty of places and the best health care in the world are national health care plans.
“this from a guy whose never read Frank before. So it’s not just us.”
You don’t have to be here long for Frank to intentionally piss you off enough to snap. It’s what he does.
Don’t thank Bush, Thank Nader.
Seriously.
EarL
There are people who need help, and a smaller number who want help. Any idiot who confuses a therapist with Dr. Phil is obviously in the larger number, but, fortunately for me, not in the smaller.
And furthermore, how stupid could anyone be as to believe that a person could somehow “hold his / her marriage together”?
What should I have used? Duct tape?
Wadda Marroon!
When does blaming me for making this thread about me begin?
You guys are amazingly lacking in introspection — amazingly!
There is a diffrence between helping someone and the government coming in at the point of a gun and making you work for someone. There is a little thing called freedom. A ‘right’ to healthcare is meaningless unless the government forcibly makes some work for others. Otherwise its about as meaningful as my ‘right’ to lakefront property on Mars (cue the highly intellectual Nimmer: Wait a darn minute! There are no lakes on Mars! I got Dugger. I got Dugger.)
Why is it I don’t have a right to one of John Edwards mansions? After all, I NEED a place to live.
“There is a diffrence between helping someone and the government coming in at the point of a gun and making you work for someone.”
You are a fucking retard. If you don’t want to pay taxes, move somewhere where there are none.
Anyone who compared taxes to robbery needs to grow up or shut up. Or both.
There is no amount of political philosophy that makes National Health Care a right, unless you look outside a Federal Republic — that’s us.
In the world of Marx, Engels, et al, every one has a “right” to whatever the government thinks they need.
It doesn’t work that way in the USA.
Dugger, don’t feel bad about being called a retard. Strowbridge has been busting to call somebody a retard for days now.
I can’t do anything for you, Dugger, as long as you equate your having to pay taxes to the Federal Government with OMG I AM TOTALLY BEING OUTRAGEOUSLY VICTIMISED!
Where do you want your taxes to go? Anywhere other than straight back to you?
Frank, once again with the Socialism=Communism thing. You realise that’s like equating all right wing thinking from basic capitalism onwards with fascism? Just checking.
“Why is it I don’t have a right to one of John Edwards mansions? After all, I NEED a place to live.”
Why does anyone pay attention to these people?
So a government that is run indirectly by the people would not run healthcare in such a way that is in that same people’s best interest?
And the answer is to leave it to companies that have a vested and stated interest in taking as much of your money and providing as little care as possible?
So, and I’m just trying to make sure I’m not misinterpreting the Dugger-DiSalle healthcare ideal here, we shouldn’t make sure everyone is healthy in a way that everyone agrees on, because we have a moral obligation to make sure people pay money and recieve nothing, and that those who can’t afford to pay recieve even less? Because a newborn infant in the inner city has no right to health, and how dare they try and get me to pay basically no more for that than I’m paying now for healthcare I’ll be lucky to ever get?
It’s… please help me make sure I’m getting this right, it’s more moral to let that jeopardize the child’s health than to jeopardize your money?
I turned on a my shower this morning and water came up. Surely this was a sign that Frank was up to some wankerage, so I check this thread, and sure enough Frank has managed to continue his superbowl of asshattery.
The premise of this thread was basically that this Presidency has been a boon to Democratic fortunes and will continue to be a boon as long as Republicans are identified with Bush. Have you anything substantive to say in response to that Frank?
I’ll wait while you make your run to the welfare office and pick up your morning 40 and a donut.
BTW – you have as much chance of becoming a therapist as you do of getting laid. That is unless you attend the Falwell University of Remedial Therapization for teh Gay where for only $19.95 they’ll send you your own personalized gaydar.
“…Establish Justice….Promote the General Welfare and secure the blessings of Liberty..”
Hmm… I wonder where THAT quote comes from?
How about…our founding document, the US Constitution?
I firmly believe in FDR’s modern statement of four Freedoms:
FDR’s Four Freedoms Speech
“…The first is freedom of speech and expression — everywhere in the world.
The second is freedom of every person to worship God in his own way everywhere in the world.
The third is freedom from want, which, translated into world terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants — everywhere in the world.
The fourth is freedom from fear, which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor — anywhere in the world…”
There’s no question in my mind that in a rich country with tiny enemies which somehow still has a Defense budget which consumes close to 60% of our discretionary monies we can cut waste and useless expenditures and find enough monies to provide a baseline of health care for all our citizens.
We have the money to do it, what we need to do is get the corporations and special interests out of the debate.
Frank,
Since nobody in the US has a right to National Health Care, are you going to stop accepting your own government-provided healthcare and go buy yourself some private insurance and start going to regular doctors?
Nimrod, Socialism was a step to Communism. One cannot equal the other. Where do you think the concept of Socialism came from?
The right?
People that can’t afford to pay for medicine and medical care have no trouble receiving free or extremely cheap medicine and medical care.
These are the people I mentioned above, who are uninsured, simply because they haven’t signed up.
If you know a poor person who doesn’t have medical care, put them in touch with me, and I will get them signed up, in whatever state they live in.
But I mean poor — no private home, not two cars, swimming pool in the backyard, like you guys. I mean poor.
Rex: “the answer is to leave it to companies that have a vested and stated interest in taking as much of your money and providing as little care as possible?”
That’s right, Rex. It’s called a Health Savings Account. Not surprisingly, promoted by Bush as the Next Great Thing in American healthcare.
“the answer is to leave it to companies that have a vested and stated interest in taking as much of your money and providing as little care as possible?”
Because they won’t keep getting your money, if they don’t keep giving you care.
In a nationalized system, every provider keeps getting paid, good, bad, or indifferent. Your local doctor is your local doctor. Period.
Because they won’t keep getting your money, if they don’t keep giving you care.
Actually I think you have that backwards.
Posted by: Frank | Jun 27, 2007 9:18:11 PM
and I’m just gonna go ahead and ignore that since I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Because they won’t keep getting your money, if they don’t keep giving you care.
Ah, yes, because I’ll take my business elsewhere, good point… oh, except since I’m overweight I can’t actually get private insurance since I’m automatically turned down… also my Mother’s family has a history of minor heart problems… and my Father’s Father had prostate cancer… and for a dozen other small reasons a thousand red flags are set off in any application I might submit, which tell the companies that theres a better than nil chance that I might ever actually require them to pay for healthcare, and rather than take that risk they deny me coverage. I’m left again with whatever the company offers, if I’m lucky enough that they even offer anything. Which is the funny little irony, that in this wonderful “free market” I’m not in fact given a choice.
In a nationalized system, every provider keeps getting paid, good, bad, or indifferent.
Except that, of course you dolt, there are incentives for doctors to do well in those systems. I forget which country it is but think its France where if you, as a doctor, treat and cure more people in a month, and keep more people healthy, then you get bonuses/raises/etc. Now since even the stupid French aren’t so dense as to not want money, theyre going to, say it with me… thats right “try harder.”
If you know a poor person who doesn’t have medical care, put them in touch with me, and I will get them signed up, in whatever state they live in.
Okay Frank, Single mother in her 30s who, for various reasons, not the least of which is chronic medical problems, is currently not working while she begins a 2-year college education (luckily on full scholarship) to improve her prospects in the state of Michigan where opportunities are few and far between, currently living with her parents and with access to minimal money (which is to say what friends can afford to give to her + $10/week in child support from her abusive ex). She’s been to every agency in Michigan in search of help of any kind and as every public welfare agency in the state is already strained to the breaking point (to say nothing of the ordeal of even applying for it given the high demand) she has gotten none. Today, as a result of living in her parent’s basement, now has mild pneumonia.
Now as I see it the options are these:
A – She goes to a free clinic and waits all day to see an overworked doctor and eventually recieves (provided the correct diagnosis is made) a prescription for an Albuterol Inhaler and Antibiotics, which will total $100 or more which, I’m not sure if Ive made clear, she doesn’t actually have, for this single instance of illness. Lets say she comes to me and I give her what I can afford to, which is $40, so she gets half the antibiotics and uses an old, nearly empty/expired inhaler she finds somewhere in the house.
Cost to me = $40. Benefit = She recieves, for this instance, a bare minimum of treatment for her illness.
Theoretically the cost to me can be supplanted by any state help she recieves, but it is unlikely she will recieve very much. Likewise if she happens to be friends with a doctor she’s more likely to recieve better treatment than at the free clinic which increases the benefit marginally.
B – National Health Care is implemented, meaning two things for me financially. More money is taken out of my paycheck in taxes, but money is also put back in since I no longer have to pay for the company health plan (I don’t know which value would be greater and have never seen a comparison, but strongly expect the difference to be negligible). Under the healthcare system, she then sees the best doctor available to her at that time and promptly recieves her entire prescription at no cost to her.
Cost to me = $0 (again, not precisely known, but presumed negligible, and I invite you to prove me wrong). Benefit = She (and, not incidentally, I) recieves, is guaranteed to recieve and will continue to recieve, the best healthcare that she can throughout her life.
C – You, Frank, know of a specific agency to which she has not fruitlessly appealed for help. (I’m not sure how this is any more moral than national healthcare if we’re talking about taxpayer money being spent here, but nevermind) By directing her there she can now recieve enough money to see a better than minimal doctor and afford her entire prescription this once.
Cost = $0 to me except that I owe you, of all people, a massive favor. Benefit = She sees a decent doctor and recieves her prescription… for the first time in her life, and worries (and not without reason) that it might be the last.
Now, since we’re talking about my money here, which is of course so pivotally important it must be protected by a bodyguard of a ridiculously high infant mortality rate, it occors to me that in my crude Cost/Benefit analysis above, the net gain in option B is so much better that it would be catastrophically idiotic of me to gamble on either the efficacy of A or the plausibility of C.
Well played, sir.
Yes, nicely put, Rex. It’s empirically proven that the French system would cost us all less and give us better care. Even so, the conservative position is to force Americans to pay more money for worse healthcare –purely on the basis of ideological reasons. It’s actually quite similar to their stubborn delusion that staying in Iraq=winning. As shown by the torture debate, the most influential intellectual hero for conservatives these days is not Goldwater or Churchill, but Stalin.
As an employer, I can say that I would love to see National Healthcare in the U.S. I pay about $400 per employee, a rate that has gone up 25% per year for two years in a row and each time my agent comes to visit in his BMW, I wonder to myself what the hell he is doing for me besides continuously asking for more money.
“In a nationalized system, every provider keeps getting paid, good, bad, or indifferent. Your local doctor is your local doctor. Period.”
…
uhhh….
…
THAT’S NOT FUCKING TRUE YOU IGNORANT PIECE OF SHIT!
Do you feel a powerful desire every day to spout of on crap you know nothing about?
The only difference between nationalized and private health care is one, (or more), fewer layers of bureaucracy in the nationalized system.
That’s it.
The only people who make decisions when it comes to your health care in Canada are you and your doctor, which ever one you’ve picked. (And yes, you are free to pick whoever you want, and doctors don’t get paid if you see someone else.)
In the United States, your insurance provider could have a larger say than your doctor.
Because there’s less bureaucracy to deal with, it is also cheaper.
In Canada we pay $307 per person for paperwork, or about 17% of the health care budget.
In the United States, you pay $1,059 per person, or about 31% of the health care budget.
We also live longer, have a lower infant mortality rate, etc.
It seems switching to a Canadian system would save money, and lives, yet people on the right are opposed to it on moral reasons.
(By the way, don’t switch to a Canadian system. While it is better than the States, France has the best in the world. If you are going to change, go with the best.)
each time my agent comes to visit in his BMW, I wonder to myself what the hell he is doing for me besides continuously asking for more money.
‘ey, nice fucking place you got here. It’d be a real shame if sumpin’ bad happened to it. God forbid, heh heh.
Insurance companies, organized crime. Difference? 0
OOOW! Strowbridge HIT ME WITH THE BOLD CAPS!
I need a doctor now, but I can’t find an emergency room, I can’t get Medicaid, I can’t ask to be billed later, so I’ll guess I’ll either lay down in the street and die, or crawl over the border into Canada, where I will die because I can’t say “No money” in French.
A – She goes to a free clinic
No Clinic is “Free”. The patient pays nothing, but somebody must. That’s exactly what’s wrong with nationalized health systems. The patients won’t pay, but someone will. Someone always does. TANSTAAFL
C – You, Frank, know of a specific agency to which she has not fruitlessly appealed for help… Perhaps I do
By directing her there she can now receive enough money to see a better than minimal doctor and afford her entire prescription this once.
Wrong. I said nothing about receiving money. I said I could direct a poor person to free or cheap medical care.
Cost = $0 to me except that I owe you, of all people, a massive favor.
You owe me nothing, and she owes me nothing. I have been directing people to benefits for years; sometimes as a paid job, sometimes for free.
I am not giving out favors like Don Corleone. If she is eligible for the benefit next year, when she recertifies, she will receive a years’ worth of benefits.
What a substantive conversation this would be, if any of you knew anything about healthcare in America.
What a substantive conversation this would be, if any of you knew anything about healthcare in America.
My mother is a Registered Nurse. She works on a military base.
My father works on the state Medicaid program.
I work for a firm that provides medical care to prisons.
I therefore know absolutely nothing about the American healthcare system.
Alternately, the extent of your experience seems to be having directed people to agencies that might help them recieve some kind of health care, even if the nature of that care is incomplete (as in the case of not being able to purchase medication) or sub-par (in the case of the over-worked doctors in free-to-the-patient-but-not-to-the-taxpayer-who-supports-them-since-youre-going-to-insist-on-quantifying-every-blessed-thing-instead-of-addressing-the-substance-of-the-argument clinic).
Your professional experience then seems to have led you to say a series of things about healthcare systems both foreign and domestic that are demonstrably false (no incentive to excel in France) or true only in theory (I have a choice of HMOs) and grand sweeping generalizations whic you presume so self-evidently true that you don’t need to quantify in the least (”National Health Care can’t be ‘made’ to work,” and yet it seems to in Canada and France).
Naturally, the only sensible assumption to make is that you, wise and venerated that you are, know more about all healthcare apparatuses than any of us here, who have teh librul stoopid cooties.
Clearly, Frank’s view of the world around is based entirely on his own personal experience. If it didn’t happen to him, it didn’t happen.
C – You, Frank, know of a specific agency to which she has not fruitlessly appealed for help… Perhaps I do
Can you name 3?
“No Clinic is “Free”. The patient pays nothing, but somebody must.’
The best line spoken here and the key. It never is and never was whether or not universal health care is desirable. Hell, all of us being millionaires is desirable. Its the practicality and morality of it. At some point the government has to force workers (doctors, nurses etc) at the theoretical point of a gun to give up their hard earned sweat equity to some one else.
Please don’t talk about morality. You’re on shaky ground.
DuroS:
Medicare
Medicaid
Any one with a low income and / or a disability qualifies for one or the other.
Rex Mundane claims there is no place for a poor person to get free or cheap medical care or medicine, but his father works on the state Medicaid program.
Well, go ask Daddy what he does for a living, if you don’t believe me.
All the hospitals around me — and there are a lot, because I’m in the NYC Metro area, are consolidating like crazy.
Guess why?
Because Big Pharma and Super Hospitals are gonna make a bundle off of this. And guess who’s going to take it in the neck? The poor you are so busy feigning concern for.
Rex Mundane claims there is no place for a poor person to get free or cheap medical care or medicine.
Frank you illiterate slut I said nothing of the sort. If you could be bothered to actually read what I said you’d realize that in my hypothetical above explaining the benefits of certain options I referenced Free clinics in ‘A’ and govt assistance in ‘C’. You responded to those two points directly (and exclusively) in your reply. How the hell do you not see that…
…wow, okay, know what? This isnt even a debate anymore. Its me making an argument and you actively trying to be ignorant for the specific purpose of making everyone who disagrees with you frustrated so you can claim personal victory as though your obviously incorrect statements must be true, why else would we all be fed up with trying to reason with you? Why surely the fact that we cannot argue effectively against your non sequiturs is evidence enough of their validity.
But yeah Frank, Big Pharma will make a mint. Same way they are in Canada, where Americans keep traveling specifically to buy generic medications because they’re so much cheaper than whats available in the U.S. and equally effective. Completely makes a single lick of fucking sense, that. Good for you.
Seriously, if your only contribution to any discussion is simply going to be repeatedly saying that everybody’s opinion but yours is wrong then why dont you just go fuck a toaster.
Any one with a low income and /or a disability qualifies for one or the other.
Pneumonia counts as a disability? Good to know.
“The best line spoken here and the key. It never is and never was whether or not universal health care is desirable. Hell, all of us being millionaires is desirable. Its the practicality and morality of it. At some point the government has to force workers (doctors, nurses etc) at the theoretical point of a gun to give up their hard earned sweat equity to some one else.”
NO. THEY. FUCKING. DON’T.
Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you just really fucking stupid?
Is it practical? It’s lasted nearly 60 years, so yeah, I’d say there’s nothing to worry about on that score. Is it moral? What the fuck kind of stupid question is that? Let’s look at it another way: is denying people all over the country the right to life-saving surgery, or treatment for diseases like, say, pneumonia, or childhood injections against Measles, simply because the drugs or the surgery are too expensive for them, is that moral?
And Jesus Christ, Doctors ALWAYS work for other people. That’s the point of being a Doctor. To HELP PEOPLE. PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT YOURSELF. It’s not about fucking “sweat equity” and all that bullshit about “I DO ALL THE WORK IT IS ALL MINE MINE MINE”, you dumbshit. You go into medicine to TREAT PEOPLE. Jesus, can you imagine a world where all Doctors were as selfish as you?
And no, treatment is not “free” per se, as it’s funded by EVERYONE WHO WILL EVER USE IT OR NEED TO USE IT via their taxes. It is however free at the point of delivery, which is the bit where it’s fair and doesn’t effectively victimise the poor by denying them the right to be and remain healthy.
The only problem, the only problem anyone on Earth has ever, or could ever have with the basic concept of free public healthcare, is “but what’s in it for me?”
In conclusion, then, I hope you get kidney stones the size of hams and can’t afford to have them surgically removed.
Free at the point of delivery.?!!!! What in the hell is that? Then everything I buy with a credit card is free???? I mean its free at the point of delivery.
And Nimmer, it isn’t paid for by everyone. How does someone not working pay for it? How does someone earning 20K a year and paying about 1K in taxes pay for surgery worth $50,000?
Its the government forcing private citizens to fork over their sweat equity at the point of a gun.
Rex, you weren’t really equating a Medical Clinic that takes Medicare, Medicaid or cash, with a “Free” Clinic, were you?
Don’t blame me for your lack of clarity.
C is a direct quote. No problem there.
In the future, just comment “Frank: Boogity, Boogity == Go fuck a toaster”.
Save a lot of bogus bullcrap that way.
Pneumonia counts as a disability? Good to know.
Once again, I’m baffled. Nothing new there.
My understanding is that people trek to Canada to buy drugs not yet apporved by the FDA. Of course, if I’m wrong, you’ve got a link to straighten me out,
In the meantime, I’ll be flipping a coin: Fuck the toaster with handle down, or not.
Dugger, industrial society costs money. Roads, bridges, defense, general welfare – they are all expensive and require a highly skilled workforce. It is not a coincidence that places which support general welfare are the most advanced countries in the world. It is a way for to ensure that the poor see some path to wealth creation without starving or dying before reaching adulthood. The world that you envision exists. Try Brazil or Mexico out some time.
By the way, “sweat equity” is generally the contribution of people who do not contribute money but instead contribute time and effort to a project. Whatever you were trying to mean, you used the term incorrectly.
Yes, and France, one of the “most advanced countries in the world”, took a month long beach vacation in the summer, while the elderly died from heat stroke in the cities and towns.
And America’s “high mortality rate” is because the Doctors try to keep the newborns alive a little longer. Subsequently, if they die a little later, they’re called “infant mortalities”. In “advanced countries”, they let them die and call them stillborn — Abracadabra! Lower infant mortality.
at the point of a gun.
You keep saying that, but I don’t know what it means. Where do you live where the IRS holds you up at gunpoint?
In the meantime, I’ll be flipping a coin: Fuck the toaster with handle down, or not.
Doesn’t matter. Just make sure it’s plugged in.
The only problem, the only problem anyone on Earth has ever, or could ever have with the basic concept of free public healthcare, is “but what’s in it for me?”
And there it is; the heart of the conservative. Aside from the obvious answer (free public healthcare), “what’s in it for me?”
“OOOW! Strowbridge HIT ME WITH THE BOLD CAPS!”
Congradulations, Frank. You ignored everything I posted. I’ll take that as complete surrender.
“And America’s ‘high mortality rate’ is because the Doctors try to keep the newborns alive a little longer. Subsequently, if they die a little later, they’re called ‘infant mortalities’. In ‘advanced countries’, they let them die and call them stillborn — Abracadabra! Lower infant mortality.”
You are a fucking liar.
“My understanding is that people trek to Canada to buy drugs not yet apporved by the FDA. Of course, if I’m wrong, you’ve got a link to straighten me out,”
You’re wrong, Frank. But you should be used to that.
http://www.canadapharmacy.com/index.cfm
I picked 5 drugs at random, all of them were FDA approved.
Now will you admit you are fucking wrong?
“Yes, and France, one of the “most advanced countries in the world”, took a month long beach vacation in the summer, while the elderly died from heat stroke in the cities and towns.”
That happens in the United States as well. It’s a common occurance during a record breaking heat wave.
What does that have to do with health care?
“Free at the point of delivery.?!!!! What in the hell is that?”
It means people can make health care decisions based on medical issues, not whether they can afford treatment or not. And since little health problems can grow into major ones if they are not looked after, this is a good thing.
Take every industrialized nation on the planet. Only the United States is without universal health care. The United States also pays more for its health care, and that’s just counting government spending. (That’s per capita and per GDP.)
So in reality, switching to a socialized health care system in the states would save you money and get you a better product.
But you reject it over moral grounds.
Why?
Dugger, all you are saying is WAH WAH WAH IT’S SO UNFAIR.
“Free at the point of delivery?!!!! What in the hell is that?”
What, this concept is outlandish to you? Do some fucking research, moron.
Like I said, the one and only objection you or anyone else has to Universal Healthcare is based on a personal philosophy which starts and ends with selfishness. If other people benefit as much as, or (shock) more than you from the same service, you throw a tantrum.
Congradulations, Frank. You ignored everything I posted. I’ll take that as complete surrender.
To take it properly, you should take it as a complete disregard for your opinion.
You are a fucking liar
Tut, tut, tut… Nasty, nasty! Link for Dummies
Now will you admit you are fucking wrong?
Now will you admit you are fucking wrong, Clem?
That happens in the United States as well. It’s a common occurrence during a record breaking heat wave.
14,802 deaths — “only about 20% of general practitioners were away during the heat wave.”
Happens all the time in backwards America, eh, Clem?
The French Doctors were on vacation, and they weren’t going to interrupt their vacances for a piddling 14,000 deaths.
Now I will show how to ask a serious question:
Your comment was: Only the United States is without universal health care. The United States also pays more for its health care, and that’s just counting government spending
Now, with even a basic knowledge of US Government, how could you expect the cost of health to get cheaper?
“The French Doctors were on vacation, and they weren’t going to interrupt their vacances for a piddling 14,000 deaths.”
That has jack to do with the concept of universal healthcare and you know it.
“And America’s “high mortality rate” is because the Doctors try to keep the newborns alive a little longer. Subsequently, if they die a little later, they’re called “infant mortalities”. In “advanced countries”, they let them die and call them stillborn — Abracadabra! Lower infant mortality.”
This is an utter lie, Frank. Lots of babies die in the South, particularly, and it’s not because the doctors are trying so hard. I would think that now you conservatives represent the South and the South alone, you might take a more active interest in the region’s problems. Then again, conservatives hate the poor, so I guess not.
Try page two of this report if you’re actually interested in educating yourself about infant mortality in this country, Frank. Poor rural people get hurt the worst — you should be ashamed of that and trying to change it instead of what you’re currently doing: making excuses for it.
Here it is: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr55/nvsr55_14.pdf
I’m not saying its necessarily unfair, I’m saying its not free and that taking from those who work hard (Doctors, nurses work very hard – hence ’sweat equity’) and sacrifice large portions of their lives to reward those who don’t/won’t work, IMO, is at its core immoral. So does that mean hte governemnet should do nothing. No. Theres a lot it should do but we should never lose sight of the basic principal that it is the government taking stuff by force (don’t believe its not at the point of the gun – try not paying your taxes – one day, eventually, a nice person with a fire arm will show up at your ‘compound). So to go one step further and say the non-doers have a ‘right’ to a Doctors ten-20 years of toil and sacrifice just ain’t right.
1) Progressive income taxation is not going away, Dugger. It’s a moral case that’s been won by the center in every western country, and which is in a practical sense, essential to the functioning of modern society. Sorry, man. That bridge was passed a long, long time ago.
2) The reason national health insurance is a good idea is because it will cost everyone less than our current mixed system does. I think if you looked at the French system, you’d have to reevaluate your conservative talking points on the amount of reward given to doctors, the amount of intellectual property developed, and the amount of choice patients have in the system.
Just to be clear, you’re aware that we’re all paying for the health care of the poor now, right? All those emergency room visits — they’re really expensive. Because the poor don’t go in for preventive care, it costs us a ton more than it would if national health insurance was in place. Why are you against better care at a lower cost?
“Doctors, nurses work very hard”
Yes. They do. For other people. That’s the nature of their work. That is why you are talking out of your rear end.
That, and the fact that you equate poverty with laziness with no room for any other option. That’s why you’ll always be wrong.
Dr. AGH: I truly detest people who think “caring more” than I do is important.
First of all, the infant mortality is distorted by many countries. A distorted statistic should not be used as evidence of good care.
Secondly, Dr. AGH, you and all your keyboard commands are only trying to change my mind. You are trying get taxpayers’ money to be spent in a way that will make you feel better.
I have worked in Community Mental Health. I have helped people in financial trouble, when I worked for the IRS. I am studying to be a Family Therapist to help drug addicts, ex-cons, and mentally ill people.
Who are you all helping?
Classic non-response response. Infant mortality is worse in the rural South because poverty and racism play a huge role in public health. Because we are a much more unequal nation than, say South Korea, we have higher infant mortality rates. If you want to challenge that, you’ll actually have to, you know, challenge it, Frank.
Since you’re curious, I teach refugees (some are illegal) English on Wednesday nights. Also, my fiancee (getting married in August) and I are going into the Peace Corps next May (sub-Saharan Africa, but we don’t know which country yet). When we start our blog in the spring, I’ll let you know. Also, I think I’m going to start going by the name “Dr. Victor Davis Handjob.” I just think it’s more to the point.
I applaud your interest in the forgotten continent. Maybe while you’re there, you’ll learn the folly of government controlled economy. With any kind of luck, it will be virtue of the media, and not by personal experience.
Of course, mocking conservatives is probably a job requirement of a Peace Corps member.
Don’t try to make Americans out of anybody — you have lots to learn
“I have helped people in financial trouble, when I worked for the IRS.”
Oh my God, I almost fell out of my seat laughing. Did you help them with a shiv or a blindfold and cigarette?
You are trying get taxpayers’ money to be spent in a way that will make you feel better.
How is that a bad thing? I should get taxpayer money (MY taxpayer money) spent in a way that makes feel bad and ashamed?
“I have helped people in financial trouble, when I worked for the IRS.”
Just curious; did you carry a sidearm and visit people’s “compounds”?
Nimmer, brace yourself (remember “don’t/won’t)
“That, and the fact that you equate poverty with laziness me are and some aren’t.”
Thats is definitely true sometimes and even more, I suspect, poverty relates to poor decision making.
Let that nerdy kid go to school 10 hours a day, I’m going to play some cool video games!
Here, Frank. Follow these instructions.
=)
Ready as I always am to educate the ignorant, I will explain to those of you who require it, exactly how an Internal Revenue Officer can help someone.
It was my job to secure delinquent (nonfiled) returns, and unpaid taxes. If people felt that they couldn’t pay in full, it was our option to grant that person X amount of time to pay, or actually waive the amount.
If there were errors involved, adjustments or abatements could be made. I was known amongst my peers as one of the best in the business at solving adjustment cases.
I should get taxpayer money (MY taxpayer money) spent in a way that makes feel bad and ashamed?
No, you should be working on getting YOUR money back in your pocket, and every other taxpayers’ money back in their’s.
(Cue the Joke Machine}
And, no I didn’t follow the link, nor do I care to.
No, you should be working on getting YOUR money back in your pocket, and every other taxpayers’ money back in their’s.
I don’t have a compound in the woods stockpiled with canned goods and ammunition, sorry. Any other ideas? How does one go about that? Abolish the IRS? Good luck with that.
I don’t have a problem paying my fair share for society at large. I don’t appreciate my money being used for bad things.
Call me a socialist, then, see if I care.
“Fair share’s” the key phrase. Then comes “bad things”.
If you don’t appreciate your money being used for bad things, what makes you think you’re the only one who has that feeling?
Here’s a scenario for you:
A guy comes to your door, and says, “I’m collecting money to get Paris Hilton out of jail”.
You say, “Let her learn her lesson in jail, and she can pay her own way out, when the time comes.”
The guy goes away.
The next day he comes back with a SWAT team, US Marshals, and FBI agents.
He says, “I’m collecting money to get Paris Hilton out of jail”.
Now what do you say?
“I don’t appreciate my money being used for bad things?”
No, I’d say “Do you have a warrant? Then get off my lawn.”
“And I don’t appreciate my money being used for stupid things, either.”
By fair share, I’m referring to infrastructure and the things that make for a civilized society, not fund-raising for idiots. I guess you could put me down for a NO on public-funded electioning.
You are trying get taxpayers’ money to be spent in a way that will make you feel better.
I’m gonna ask this again; How is this a bad thing?
he next day he comes back with a SWAT team, US Marshals, and FBI agents.
BTW, if that ever does happen, I am SO moving.
How is this a bad thing?
Because collecting and spending the hard earned wages of hundreds of millions is not designed solely to fulfill your emotional needs.
If you leave a huge estate when you die, you can donate money to the preservation of goldfish, the worship of cats, or whatever you want.
But you can’t wake up one day, and say, I want everybody in America to have unpaid medicine and unpaid doctors, whatever the cost, because I’d sleep so much better knowing that were so.
BTW, if that ever does happen, I am SO moving.
You’ll be moving all right, because your house will look like charcoal briquets.
Funny Frank, I don’t typically think of a workout artiste as one who “helps people with their finances” any more than I think of a mobster as someone who helps you with your concrete boots.
I’m not sure what a “workout artiste” is, so I can’t agree or disagree.
But if you’re suggesting I’m lying, that no longer troubles me. It’s who you are — it’s what you do. It’s called 21st Century liberalism.
The next time you have erroneous FTD Pens, or A/C Interest you think is unfair, and an IRS employee tells you “Interest can’t be abated”, don’t call me.
I just make shit up. Just like I’m making up the part about representing taxpayers on my own after I left the IRS – for three years.
Me: “You are a fucking liar”
The Fucking Liar: “Tut, tut, tut… Nasty, nasty! Link for Dummies”
Two points:
1.) You claimed, “they let them die and call them stillborn.” No where in your link does it say doctors in other nations don’t try and keep infants alive as long as possible.
2.) You realize they never prove their claim and mention only five nations. In fact…
“In Australia, Canada, and the United States, over one-third of all infant deaths are reported to take place in the first day….”
And Australia and Canada have lower infant mortality rates. So how can this claim of theirs be true? It might make a smaller difference, but not enough.
“Now will you admit you are fucking wrong, Clem?”
And what does that link prove? You can do a search without coming up with an actual article to prove people come to Canada to get drugs that are not FDA approved. Cause that was your claim, you liar.
“That happens in the United States as well. It’s a common occurrence during a record breaking heat wave.
14,802 deaths — “only about 20% of general practitioners were away during the heat wave.”
Happens all the time in backwards America, eh, Clem?”
The event was unprecedented in France. It would be like a volcano suddenly erupting in several major cities, at the same time. The result would be a disaster relief problem, not a health care crisis, you fucking friendless moron.
“The French Doctors were on vacation, and they weren’t going to interrupt their vacances for a piddling 14,000 deaths.”
What would ending their vacations do? Were there supposed to return to wave fans at the elderly?
“Now I will show how to ask a serious question:
Your comment was: Only the United States is without universal health care. The United States also pays more for its health care, and that’s just counting government spending
Now, with even a basic knowledge of US Government, how could you expect the cost of health to get cheaper?”
Cut out the middle man. That alone would reduce costs by 15% using the Canadian system as a model.
Then you could also bargain for better prices. That could save millions more.
“I’m not saying its necessarily unfair,”
You’re not saying anything. You are complaining about the taxes as if they were armed robbery.
If you don’t want to pay taxes, go somewhere where there are none, see how well the government works.
On the other hand, if you are willing to pay for your health insurance, why not pay the government who can provide better service for less money than a corporation whose main / only goal is earning a profit?
“Now what do you say?”
… Unless your analogy includes an election process, it is as fucking retarded as you are.
Strowbridge, you’re getting to be a real nuisance.
What fucking middle man?
Bargain for better prices?
I’m starting to get a better picture of what kind of medicine you’re getting from the Canadian Health System.
But you have to take them every day for them to be effective, otherwise you’ll get these “spells” like you’ve been getting lately.
My favorite “Day – um, Clem’s a Fucking Idiot” Line: “What would ending their vacations do? Were they supposed to return to wave fans at the elderly?”
That would work…
As would this
or this
Me: “You are a fucking liar”
The Fucking Liar: “Tut, tut, tut… Nasty, nasty! Link for Dummies”
No response? Thanks for admitting you are a liar.
“Strowbridge, you’re getting to be a real nuisance.”
Frank, you still really retarded.
“What fucking middle man?”
For profit insurance companies. Jesus Christ, Frank, are you that stupid?
… Yes you are.
“Bargain for better prices?”
How are you confused here? Is there a word you need defined?
The pharmaceutical companies lobbied hard to get the government to make it illegal for them to negotiate for lower prices. So obviously if they did negotiate, you would get lower prices.
“I’m starting to get a better picture of what kind of medicine you’re getting from the Canadian Health System.”
Better than you are and at a lower cost.
My favorite “Day – um, Clem’s a Fucking Idiot” Line: “What would ending their vacations do? Were they supposed to return to wave fans at the elderly?”
That would work…
As would this
or this”
Oh dear god, you are stupid. A nationwide natural disaster hits and you are blaming the health care system for the deaths. I guess Al Quaeda isn’t to blame for those 3000 that died on 9/11, it was the health care system.
But you can’t wake up one day, and say, I want everybody in America to have unpaid medicine and unpaid doctors, whatever the cost,
Who said anything about unpaid medicine and unpaid doctors? You truly have no idea how this works, do you?
“What fucking middle man?”
Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Delta Dental, United Healthcare, and the Gotti crime family.
Frank, you do not appear to understand how the American health system works.
In the U.S., insurance companies do not directly offer insurance plans to companies. They go through semi-independent agents. Those agents have relationships with employers and individuals and do a small amount of servicing of those plans. Agents’ income is commission-based with small service compensation. Because the agent has leverage with the employer to move plans, the insurance companies are obliged to offer competitive commissions. Thus, the cost that insurance companies pay in Sales and Administrative costs are extremely high.
To look at a few examples:
United Healthcare (2006) – $25+ B in premiums – $4.8 B in “Operating Costs”
Humana (2006) – $21+ B in premiums, $3B in Sales and Admin costs
Welcare Health Plans (2006) – $1.8 B in premiums – $259 M in SG&A
A National Health Plan would not have such expenses, which is why insurance companies and agents are very freaked out and why they need you and other “free-marketeers” to remain ignorant.
The zadura formula: Frank, you don’t know anything.
Now,here’s what I know.
I’m right.
I’ve never heard of health programs like Community Health or D-O-C-S, zadura.
I know I’m not fabulously wealthy and I don’t run some enviro – company in La La Land, but I didn’t fall off a truck full of pumpkins, yesterday, either.
These companies DO SOMETHING. Those tasks will no doubt be taken over by government agencies. When has it ever happened that the government has taken over ANYTHING, and it then became cheaper?
May the Canadian asshole and the British dimwit can be forgiven for being dumbasses, but zadura, you’re an American businessman!
When did the US Government ever doing anything cheaper and / or more efficiently than private industry?
When?
Hoover Dam?
“Now,here’s what I know.
I’m right.”
I love how you say that, and then rely on nothing more than your own preconceived assumptions to back it up. No facts, no research, nothing but your faith in your infallibility.
“These companies DO SOMETHING. Those tasks will no doubt be taken over by government agencies. When has it ever happened that the government has taken over ANYTHING, and it then became cheaper?”
Insurance. It’s the same in Canada with car insurance; each province has its own insurance corporation and those run by the government are cheaper.
Look at the numbers:
http://www.pnhp.org/news/2003/august/administrative_costs.php
http://consumeraffairs.com/news04/health_plan.html
The United States pays more money in paperwork than Canada does, both in terms of raw dollars and in terms of percentage. The reason for this is simple, private insurance must make a profit and the best way to do that is to deny coverage and to refuse to pay for needed treatment. It takes another layer of bureaucracy to do that.
You may think the government can’t do anything better than the private section, but you are wrong.
“May the Canadian asshole and the British dimwit can be forgiven for being dumbasses, but zadura, you’re an American businessman!”
More bigotry form the perpetual victim named Frank. This is why your children don’t call.
Frank, the formula that you mentioned is essentially correct. You offer bromides; I disagree; I back up my disagreement with facts. You disregard the facts. (To your credit, this is better than Dugger, who simply disregards the argument and repeats the bromides.)
The government doesn’t do everything well but they would certainly eliminate the expense of sales people. In U.S. healthcare, 15% of the money you pay goes to sales. It would certainly eliminate the need to pay a bunch of administrative CEOs extravigant amounts of money, it would certainly enable the “health plan” to negotiate better rates with vendors, including drug companies. It would eliminate the huge investment banking fees attributable to M&A work with health insurance plans. In short, it would cost less… As a businessman, an employer who offers health insurance and pays too much money, I want a change.
First of all, let me get Clem out of the way.
I didn’t mean all Canadians are assholes, how pompous of you. Let me straighten that out. From now on I will refer to you as the “asshole from Canada”. Better?
You’re not keeping up with the threads — lousy job of stalking, Psycho!
We covered the “children calling” thing elsewhere.
Finally, I was quoting someone else, and you quoted me as if they were my words!
Can you ever do ANYTHING stupid enough to be embarrassed?
zadura: they would certainly eliminate the expense of sales people
Your vision is too small. You see the people with the Pharma sticky pads, and free pens, and imagine $25 – $30K a year each being saved when the government takes over.
But they will be replaced over night by two groups of people, probably larger in number, that will make the same amount per year.
1) Service representatives: People that answer mail and phone calls about complaints in the system
2) Investigators to go in the field and investigate those complaints.
Net savings :: None
This news just in from Canada
Frank, you are going to find that businesses will in increasing numbers be pulling away from your point of view in the next few years.
The main reason is that the facts. Healthcare delivery is cheaper per-capita in countries with National healthcare vs. U.S. Healthcare admin. costs are cheaper in the U.S. under Medicare than not. You have no evidence at all that the net savings will be zero, just a vague disbelief in the efficacy of government systems.
just a vague disbelief in the efficacy of government systems.
4 years in the military (my father also worked 20 years for the DOD), 15 years with the IRS, years of receiving Medicaid and Food Stamps leads one to a profound disbelief in the efficacy of government systems.
Nobody said it better than Reagan: The most frightening words you ever heard: “We’re from the government, and we’re here to help.”
I can imagine employers in 1943: “We can take out Federal Tax and Social Security throughout the year? That should work fine!”
“Net savings :: None”
Frank, you fucking moron. I’ve already shown you Canada pays less in paperwork than in the States. How do you explain this?
I can think of only two reasons:
1.) The Canadian system is better.
2.) Canadians are better.
Which is it?
“This news just in from Canada”
Yeah, the Canadian Health Care system isn’t perfect and has been underfunded for a while. But it still gets better results than the American one.
(And the quote in the headline isn’t backed up by any real facts.)
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