If your comment had been, “Are you saying black children are feral?”, this could have been avoided.

The reflex to pounce on “good ‘ol Frank” has created so many misunderstandings that I don’t mention about one – quarter to a third of them.

Acanthus: Your objections are yours — you are certainly entitled to them. But non – blacks are not “outsiders” in this issue. There are plenty of kids out there of all races, and socioeconomic groups, wearing cheap “bling”, and baggy jeans with their “wife beaters” tucked into their boxers.

Comedians tell jokes about white suburban kids going into the Mall, and saying, “I wanted sprinkles with my yogurt, yo!”

And the kid who has learned from those things from his mother will fall victim to this nonsense?

“It’s especially discouraging to see women (of ALL races) craving the “street” brotha and rejecting any black man that lacks a certain anti-social, arrested devlopment template”

Ok, now you have another problem altogether.

“I remember a time when blacks and whites were striving to get their own people to get along with the other race”.

“Separatism came into play in the 60′s. I think we are close to the day when the Civil Rights Act will be seen as a hastily drawn up “band aid for a belly wound” that did more harm than good”.”

I’m not taking the bait:).

My point is this: this problem is much, much too serious to be used as a grinding stone for outsiders’ personal axes, fears,control issues, and jealousies. This blog is obviously the wrong kind of place to discuss this subject.

Uh…the post was about race, your comment was about race up until that last sentence. Were you just posting a non-sequiter in the hopes of calling someone racist?

The issue is more complex than just assigning the blame to the hip hop culture. The root of the issue as far as I am concerned is the lack of fathers in the household. This goes for whites as well as blacks but right now, is seen more in black communities.

Young men want a role model. Somebody they can look up to. Somebody they can emulate. Boys need a father. And yes, I know there are exceptions to the rule and that plenty of single mothers have raised their children and they have gone on to be great members of society. But they are in the minority and no matter how much wisdom a woman can impart, she will never be able to teach a boy how to be a man. Only another man can do that.

But the absence of the fathers or a strong male role model leaves them with little choice. The drug dealer or gang banger is the man they have in their lives more often than anybody else. Who else do they have to emulate?

Again, this is not limited to black boys and young men but all boys and young men. I believe that for too long, society in large part deemphasized the importance in the role of fathers raising their kids, especially their sons. I see that trend moving back, but there needs to be more of an emphasis on it.

I think the whole ‘acting white’ stigma is a by-product of that. The kid who has learned from his father that getting good grades, and working hard is good for him and won’t fall victim to such nonsense. It’s the kid who doesn’t have that strong role model who buys into the idiocy that getting good grades and being successful in school is selling out.

Unintentional. Sorry to shock your feelings. I’m sure you’ll get through it.

In all honesty, this doesn’t make hip-hop appreciably different from other forms of popular culture which were subjected to the intrusions of organized crime. Popular films, pornography, college basketball, and boxing were all, at one time or another, subjected to the predations of criminals.

The issue for today’s hip-hop – the ubiquitous commercial misogynistic, nihilistic stuff that is reviled by purists and haters alike – has more to do with the willingness of corporations to do business with thugs than it has to do with the willing ear of black youth to imbibe and mimic these behaviors.

Concurrent with the rise of South East Queens’ version of hip-hop was a Long Island brand of hip-hop led by many college educated rappers with SUPERIOR verbal skillz and better beatz and better studio production BUT inferior distribution and access to corporate support. The public decline of groups like DelaSoul and Public Enemy MUST be considered in any conversation about thugs and hip-hop and “Black culture.”

Neither Chatterton nor McWhorter are really ready to go there. This is beyond the scope of their lives or their work. They are outsiders to this music and this life. If the “thug” is hip-hop, so is the nationalist who wants to convert the thug into a lifelong brother and partner in a collective struggle. These critics want to have their cake and eat it too. They cannot.

No? Then shame on you for threadjacking. Go back and read the original post and link and you’ll see that this thread is about race.

Interestingly, this coincides with a reaching across of hands from the young white community to the young black community.
Black and white bands performed together, integrated singing groups were formed, and white youngsters adopted black styles im addition to listening to, buying, and dancing to, black music.
What has changed recently is the model that some blacks, and some whites, are aspiring to.

John McWhorter’s review of Ethan Brown’s “Queens Reigns Supreme”, describes the connection between drug dealers and rap.

It is indeed a complicated thesis, Temple. My apologies.

The big “I disagree” requires a much more detailed and nuanced conversation. I’ve read Fryer’s work closely and disagree with this author’s premise and his conclusions. I also understand that hip-hop is not a single cultural product, but rather a dynamic combination of aesthetics, styles, modes and practices. Some of it is ugly, some of it is beautiful. In either case, it’s a multi-billion dollar BUSINESS that must be accorded a higher level of analysis than comes forth in this column.

Holla back if you like. Excuse me Oliver. No offense intended.