And don’t blame us if what you write here about patriotism is incoherent and inconsistent.
Fine, without TELLING me what I meant, without insulting me IN ADVANCE, ask me a question, or ask me to explain something that is puzzling you.

Don’t be surprised if I simply cut and paste from what I said already, because I believe you’re shopping for an answer, and not getting it.

Because the only time I see you calling a person out is when the target is yourself or someone you agree with politically. That speaks volumes about you.

Who is going to call you out for insulting the sincerity and patriotism of me and others on this thread? Certainly not you.

You are a very insulting person, Frank. You don’t say “fuck” or “asshole” much, but it would be more honest if you did.

And don’t blame us if what you write here about patriotism is incoherent and inconsistent. We’ve made an honest effort to understand what you’re trying to say, and have gotten nowhere. Think about it for a while.

you may continue the conversation with the ubiquitous CSS.
Ask wilbur what I meant, now that he is a self – proclaimed expert on my thoughts and opinions.

So you are not going to adress my point.

I’m sure between the two of you’ll figure out what I meant, and what was wrong with it.

As for your “prayer”, I don’t care if you pray for rain. Your prayer was not a memorial of the dead,it was a political expression. IMHO, it was inappropriate for Memorial Day.

At this point, all I can say is that, if you disagree with me, I don’t care.

The idea that the “days are over” when you might call out a person for saying something wrong about another person is extremely venal, and says much more about you than it does about me.

Dear Lord, on this Memorial Day I pray: may no American soldier, or soldier of any nation, ever have to give his/her life again in a criminally ill-managed war of choice.

Damn right that’s what I pray. How horribly horribly terrible of me, but I just can’t help myself.

patriotism n
Love of and devotion to one’s country.

Most sane people would agree that one can protest against the government, or its policies, or its leaders, out of love and devotion for one’s country; i.e., out of patriotism

Yet Frank seems to think that by stating that definition, he has given us some reason to think that patriotic protest is impossible.

I originally thought that he was arguing that since nothing besides patriotism actually is patriotism, then nothing but patriotism can be patriotic. But no, he later informs us that there can be patriotic songs, and patriotic acts. For some reason, which he has not vouchsafed to us, one act, protesting, is not elegible for that epithet.

How to explain this logical rats nest? It could be because Frank is insane, or irrational, or just hasn’t thought it through carefully enough.

I suspect that it is because Frank equates “Love and devotion to one’s country” with “Love and devotion to the country’s president, as long as it’s a president Frank likes.” But, to tell the truth, I’m really done caring.

And congratulations and thanks to you, DKel, for being the second person on this blog — the second person ever — to call a person on something they shouldn’t have said to me.

I believe the first person was me, Frank. Or maybe I’m the third in case you’re forgetting. Anyway, those days are over.

What if the people in charge are doing something that hurts the country? Can you protest out of patriotism then?

Can we maybe agree about this: protest can be one way to demonstrate your patriotism…?
Absolutely NOT?
Haven’t you been paying attention?
You can love your country AND protest against one or many of its policies, but protest is not patriotism.

If it’s politics to point out the horrors of war, or to note how many have died since last year, or to repeat the words of people like yourself who are currently serving (which is all Oliver’s original post consisted of), then I guess it’s true that reality has a liberal bias.

What if it’s politics to note how many have died since last year, or to repeat the words of people like yourself who are currently serving (which is all Oliver’s original post consisted of)?

Then it’s true that the true and appropriate way to celebrate has been tainted by a political agenda. You presume (incorrectly) that only liberals oppose war.

If I were to be as unfair as you, I would say that it is winning wars that liberals oppose.

Finally, while military service can be an expression of patriotism, it can also be a way to run away from home, escape from a nagging wife or a monotonous life, or learn a useful profession.

Words mean what they mean, even words like “fuck”, “ass”, “hell”, and “forever”.

And congratulations and thanks to you, DKel, for being the second person on this blog — the second person ever — to call a person on something they shouldn’t have said to me.

Not in the extent to which they are deserving of our memory, gratitude and honor, which is what you implied, and why my f.u.i.h.w.h.p.f stands.

As for your tortured logic, let’s keep playing, shall we patriotism isn’t a cinder block. It’s not a shoe. And now we’ve proved what?

Holy cow Frank, you tell me what we’ve proved. You’re the one who thought he was saying something substantial when he said that patriotism isn’t X, not me.

I suppose you really would say that military service isn’t patriotic, wouldn’t you?

Can we maybe agree about this: protest can be one way to demonstrate your patriotism, as can military serice?

dkelsmith: I know what you’re saying, but I would just point out that it wasn’t Oliver or any of his liberal commentators who injected the politics into this thread. Admittedly once the politics came in, via Marty, “Jimmy the Dhimmi” etc. we gave as good as we got.

If it’s politics to point out the horrors of war, or to note how many have died since last year, or to repeat the words of people like yourself who are currently serving (which is all Oliver’s original post consisted of), then I guess it’s true that reality has a liberal bias.

That said, God bless you and your comrades. I’m sure all of us here, wingnuts and moonbats alike, hope you and your men make it home safe, and soon.

I am not, at this present time, able to present myself as a person who subscribes to one particular school of thought regarding Iraq. Try as I may, I cannot discuss this topic objectively, I am entrenched in this with my own fears and worries. I am not saying that nobody should question anybody. I am not saying who is right or who is wrong, because honestly I don’t know. What I do know is that I was surprised that there was nothing said in the original post about the purpose of Memorial Day. The bickering and debate that goes on here is enjoyable. I really like coming here. But I am a little disheartened that as Americans, the observance of Memorial Day can’t be common ground. In short, do something that the combat troops can’t do….take a break, if only just for one post.

You didn’t offend me. You disrespected the dead, by distinguishing the dead in this war from the dead of other wars.

If you didn’t do that, or you didn’t mean to do that, say so. Don’t blame me.

By that logic nothing is “patriotic” but “patriotism” itself.
Something actually is what it is! What a novel thought! No wonder Pres. Clinton had such a problem with it. There are patriotic songs and patriotic acts, and patriotic thoughts. Protest is not one of them.

As for your tortured logic, let’s keep playing, shall we patriotism isn’t a cinder block. It’s not a shoe. And now we’ve proved what?

Nothing. Patriotism is different from protest. It is distinguishable from protest. Patriotism in now way includes protest.

I’ve already said you can protest and be patriotic. What you have not said, yet, is that Memorial Day is not for the criticism of the President or Generals. It is to memorialize the dead.

And that is what you sullied with your profane “prayer”.

As for military leaders, what military leaders who are not involved in the mission think should have been done is food for thought, but not useful tactically or strategically.

Even a private can say to a general, “Sir, I don’t think that’s a good idea.” The question Dugger, Doctor Pedro and I always ask is, “Why didn’t he raise those doubts while he was active?” And if he did, then that’s that.

They heard his input, and took it into consideration. and did what they were going to do.

As for the fucking and pokers in hell, and stuff, it’s certainly no surprise.

You tolerant, open minded liberals have a well stocked larder of hate and venom.

I read your post on your blog and was very moved by it. I look forward to seeing you speaking out the next time anyone, and not just a liberal, uses the troops for political gain.

One can be patriotic and protest. But it is not patriotic to protest.

Hmm. Let’s see where that logic leads us:

Patriotism is one thing; military service is another.

So, Frank, would you say “it is not patriotic to serve in the military”? I sure wouldn’t.

By that logic nothing is “patriotic” but “patriotism” itself. In fact, not even “patriotism” is “patriotic” since one is a noun and the other an adjective.

I hope you understand that I find questioning the President to be more an exercise in futility than an example of “disloyalty”.

I’m sure you do, Frank.

Questioning military leaders without a good education in military science is like getting a second opinion from your Aunt:

I’m sure you’ll be saying crap like that until the next military leader speaks out against the Iraq fiasco.

I will dare say that your comments were unprovoked. The level of heat off of those words is waaay too high, and you crossed the line. Heated debate notwithstanding, that was despicable.

I hope you understand that I find questioning the President to be more an exercise in futility than an example of “disloyalty”.

Questioning military leaders without a good education in military science is like getting a second opinion from your Aunt: She might have had the same operation as you, but she didn’t perform the operation.

Works for me. I happen to like your latter statment far better.