Memorial Day 2007
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“I have seen war. I have seen war on land and sea. I have seen blood running from the wounded. I have seen men coughing out their gassed lungs. I have seen the dead in the mud. I have seen cities destroyed. I have seen 200 limping, exhausted men come out of line—the survivors of a regiment of 1,000 that went forward 48 hours before. I have seen children starving. I have seen the agony of mothers and wives. I hate war.”
– Franklin Delano Roosevelt
“I just feel that we will be here a long time. And it’s going to take a lot more time than what people think back home to fix what’s going on over here. From what I see, they don’t want us here.” – Josh Ites, Iowa National Guardsman serving in Iraq
“”At home, there’s a lot of misconceptions about the conflict over here. They’ll be asked what they believe the war in Iraq is about they’ll just say ‘freedom.’ They’ll just spout off with something that they’ve heard and is easily repeatable and it’s patriotic” – Adam Wendling, Iowa National Guardsman serving in Iraq
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Wow. Just wow.
Nothing but agenda. Not a single word of thanks. Not a single word of condolence. Not a single word of remembrance or appreciation. Just agenda.
Who cares if any soldiers have died in Afghanistan (the action you say you support?) Just show the number of dead in Iraq.
Who cares about the soldiers past and present that have died for this country so an immigrant family from the islands could someday come and live in a such a great place with so many opportunities- even for a guy who sits behind his keyboard and does little but snipe.
I have no right to tell you what to write in your own space. Every once in a while, you surprise me…no- prove that you are a capable writer and sometimes have well intentioned, meaningful thoughts that transcend your politics, and truly come from your heart and from whatever process you use to come to your beliefs.
But today- it’s all agenda. Can’t be too mad about it. It’s just who you are.
Thank you to those who have come before us and given the ultimate sacrifice in the service of this great country. And thank you to those that serve today and risk your lives. While we all may not support everything you are sent to do around the world, I’m sure that we ALL appreciate that you give of yourself on behalf of us. Thank you.
It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us — that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion — that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain – Abraham Lincoln
It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died.
Rather we should thank God that such men lived – General George Patton
For all those living Veterans who didn’t get a Parade:
“Welcome home, Brother!”
Shorter Marty: That bad Oliver Willis isn’t pushing my agenda.
“They’ll just spout off with something that they’ve heard and is easily repeatable and it’s patriotic”
Yeah, my “agenda” is not having more American soldiers die for no reason. Damn my “agenda”.
Today I’m sickened by all the flag waving/selling by these Right-wing capitalistic pimps who haven’t a clue of what the flag really means.
But, in the true spirit of fairness and what America stand for, I offer this enlightened news compilation I call “The New Eccentric ‘PARADE’”:
(online version)
* News
* Dance, dance, dance
* Advertisment
* you can’t fight the Axis if you get VD!
http://www.annieangel.justgotowned.com/
* War
* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAaUCVaAThk
* Science
*http://scienceblogs.com/ pharyngu…tion_museum.php
* Weird
* http://www.aetv.com/genesimmonsfamilyjewels/gsfj_surgery_video.jsp
* Entertainment
* Here ya go
* Music
* REQUIEM
(not sure if live links will come through?)
In Flanders Fields
In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie,
In Flanders fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.
Don’t worry, when John Edwards becomes president in 2008, He will work to reduce the gap between haves and have-nots throughout the world, so that when the poor, dark skinned denizens of third world nations in turmoil acquire equal wealth and power of Americans and Jews via UN-mediated socialist wealth distribution programs, they will naturally abandon their ’opiate of the masses’ and become proper secular liberals, like Tim Robbins and Ken Livingstone. All global conflicts will subsiquently just go away. Only 18 more months to world peace!
It’s a shame how
dickless war mongers wrap themselves in the flag and become pretend patriots.
Not possible with terrorist states like Israel committing acts of aggression that go unpunished.
Mike: You asshole! “Welcome home, Brother!” is a common greeting between Vietnam veterans.
It’s not because we’ve suddenly become pretend patriots.
You know, like you’re pretend brave.
Dulce Et Decorum Est
Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.
GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!– An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.–
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil’s sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,–
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.
-Wilfrid Owen
Dear Lord, on this Memorial Day I pray: may no American soldier, or soldier of any nation, ever have to give his/her life again in a criminally ill-managed war of choice.
Thomas Paine
All wars are wars of choice.
Frank DiSalle
All wars are wars of choice
All wars should be wars of no-other-choice. That hardly describes the one we find ourselves in today.
Questioning people’s patriotism, Frank? You? Mr. Civility? Nice way to celebrate Memorial day.
How would you know how Vietnam vets greeted each other, frank you chickenhawk.
How would you know how Vietnam vets greeted each other
Because, merlallen, you grotesque excuse for a human being, I’m a Vietnam veteran!
I’ll mail you a copy of my DD 214 for $100.00
I was there longer than Sen. Kerry.
What war were you in?
Questioning people’s patriotism, Frank?
Questioning the President, Wilbur?
Questioning out military leadership, Wilbur?
Questioning our fighting men and women, Wilbur?
Sullying the memory of our men and women who made the ultimate sacrifice in ALL of our wars, Wilbur?
Nice way to stain Memorial Day.
In order, then:
Questioning the President, Wilbur? Yes. Shock horror. If you weren’t allowed to do that he’d be a king, not a President.
Questioning our military leadership, Wilbur? Inasmuch as they basically fail to question the President and the war they’re engaged in, you bet.
Questioning our fighting men and women, Wilbur? No. Nothing even remotely like it. Anywhere.
Sullying the memory of our men and women who made the ultimate sacrifice in ALL of our wars, Wilbur? This is basically an emotionally charged version of the previous question, which has been answered, though I would add that what was sacrificed is one thing; what it was sacrificed for, quite another. You seem more interested in the former than the latter I’d like to hear what you think the latter is in this case.
I don’t care about the latter on Memorial Day…
Why do you?
a) My Memorial Day is in November, b) It’s not Memorial Day anymore, c) Why shouldn’t I, d) Answer the sodding question Weasel Dan.
Nimrod answered those questions pretty well for me. I’d only add that memorial day is about honoring those who have died in service to the country. It’s not about kowtowing to whoever happens to be president.
The fact that you confuse the two, Frank, shows that you don’t know what patriotism is. Patriotism is different from tribalism. I have the former in spades, you are afflicted with the latter.
Now don’t you dare go claiming that that attack on your patriotism was unprovoked.
And as for “questioning our fighting men” or “sullying” them, all I can say is you are a contemptible lying bag of shit, Frank. Fuck you. Fuck you hard. In hell. Up the ass. Forever. With red hot pokers. And when your asshole burns off, may another asshole be provided so that the fucking hard in hell up the ass with red hot pokers may continue. Forever.
Don’t you dare say that that was unprovoked either. No matter how insulted you feel by what I said, you insulted me worse.
Questioning the President, Wilbur?
Questioning out military leadership, Wilbur?
Questioning our fighting men and women, Wilbur?
All three miss the point of Memorial Day. This is not the day to honor the men who sent Americans to war. It’s not the day to honor generals and strategists. It’s not the day to honor politicians.
The men and women who have died in wars past would have had other longer, happier lives except for the failures of leadership. And make no mistake, any occasion when Americans are sent overseas under arms, our leaders have failed us.
Our fellow citizens obeyed the call, willingly or not, and didn’t make it home. That’s a sacrifice worth remembering. The leaders who demanded it deserve nothing.
I will say this once to the three of you.
I believe that Memorial Day is a day to memorialize those men and women who have died in our wars.
I think it is safe to say that we as a nation have never entered into a war with 100% agreement. We have been involved in wars with incompetent and / or unpopular Presidents. Very often we have banded together as nation, and overcome great obstacles to defeat powerful enemies. Other times we became divided and remained divided.
But in those wars, real men and women died. They might have died in a hospital surrounded by their loved ones, but they were deprived of that opportunity.
They could have died driving their children to an amusement park, but they were deprived of that opportunity.
In other words, ALL the men and women in the Armed Forces were people who, while leading ordinary lives, stepped away from those lives, went down to the Recruiting Station, and took an oath. In so doing they offered they lives for their country. The enemy took up some of them on their offer. I thank God for that, and wish them well, on Memorial Day.
As for me, he did not. I thank God for that, on Veterans’ Day.
That is my position on Memorial Day, and it always will be.
Oh, and Wilbur, your false bravado, and righteous indignation, are wasted on me. I really don’t care what you think of the President. I don’t believe the brainless (yes, I said brainless) notion that protesting against your country’s policies is patriotic. It may not be treasonous, and it might be something else, but it is NOT patriotic.
So save all that “Fuck you hard in Hell” shit for when the local summer stock company does “The Exorcist”.
Your country was founded on the concept that protesting against your country’s policies is your right. Are you calling Benjamin Franklin brainless?
No. Read the comment again, nitwit.
Well said, Guys.
Frank, you are beyond despicable.
Alright, I will.
“I don’t believe the brainless (yes, I said brainless) notion that protesting against your country’s policies is patriotic. It may not be treasonous, and it might be something else, but it is NOT patriotic.”
John Hancock, you got something against him? Sure he had a florid signature, but “brainless”?
notion that protesting against your country’s policies is patriotic
Well Frank, you will never convince me of the totally moronic notion that it is somehow patriotic to remain silent while an incompetent leader sends young Americans to their deaths for no good reason. I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree, except you’ll be doing it from hell. With the pokers. Up the ass. Forever.
That’s nice, fd.
How does what you wrote at 3:40 tie in with this?
Questioning the President, Wilbur?
Questioning out military leadership, Wilbur?
Questioning our fighting men and women, Wilbur?
Why don’t you all discuss it and get back to me.
Quaker: I believe those three sentences written at 7:07 am were questions for Wilbur to answer.
I believe that what I wrote at 3:40 PM were declarative sentences.
Well Frank, you will never convince me of the totally moronic notion that it is somehow patriotic to remain silent while an incompetent leader sends young Americans to their deaths for no good reason.
That is not what I said. BTW, same to you, Nimrod.
I said — slowly, now:
t h e r e i s n o t h i n g p a t r i o t i c a b o u t p r o t e s t.
I t i s n o t t r e a s o n o u s , a n d i t m i g h t b e d e s c r i b e d a s s o m e t h i n g e l s e , b u t i t i s n o t p a t r i o t i c .
I believe those three sentences written at 7:07 am were questions for Wilbur to answer.
And apparently without context.
Oh, my mistake! You did provide context for those questions, and here it is:
Nice way to stain Memorial Day.
So I come back around to my original question. At 7:07 this morning, the President, military leadership, and men and women currently serving had something to do with Memorial Day. At 3:40 this afternoon, they didn’t.
What is it you actually believe?
We know what you said, it looks suspiciously like fudging. How exactly is there “nothing patriotic” about protest? Explain it.
Clearly Frank has his own private definition of “patriotism”. Best as I can tell it amounts to ‘thinking what Frank thinks and doing what Frank does’.
He confuses patriotism not only with tribalism and jingoism, but also solipsism and onanism. It’s about time to leave him and the other 28% to their own little world.
I already said what I actually believe about Memorial Day. I will not say it again.
My questions were for Wilbur, asking him what those things had to do with Memorial Day.
From YourDictionary.com
patriotism n
Love of and devotion to one’s country.
protest v
v.tr.
1. To object to, especially in
a formal statement.
v.intr.
1. To express strong objection.
It’s simple: Patriotism is one thing; protest is another.
One may have a right to protest, but no one has a duty to do so.
One can be patriotic and protest. But it is not patriotic to protest.
I already said what I actually believe about Memorial Day.
Yes, you have. Twice. In ways that can’t be reconciled. But if you don’t care to square it up, let it go.
Quaker: Your badger like tendencies are setting in.
May 29, 2007 3:40:38 PM
Period.
I see. The previous statement-in-the-form-of-a-question (questioning the president or military leaders “stains” Memorial Day) is “inoperative” then?
Works for me. I happen to like your latter statment far better.
Quaker: It wasn’t relevant o anything but as a response to Wilbur’s melodramatic,and politically loaded, “prayer”.
“questioning the president or military leaders “stains” Memorial Day”
I hope you understand that I find questioning the President to be more an exercise in futility than an example of “disloyalty”.
Questioning military leaders without a good education in military science is like getting a second opinion from your Aunt: She might have had the same operation as you, but she didn’t perform the operation.
I think what fd10801 is trying to get across is that perhaps there is one day, and one event dealing with Soldiers that should not be used as a soapbox. That day is Memorial Day. Perhaps some of you don’t know what it is for and about. I don’t agree with Frank on a lot of things, but I do believe I understand the crux of this argument, and agree with him.
Wilbur,
I will dare say that your comments were unprovoked. The level of heat off of those words is waaay too high, and you crossed the line. Heated debate notwithstanding, that was despicable.
It’s simple: Patriotism is one thing; protest is another…
One can be patriotic and protest. But it is not patriotic to protest.
Hmm. Let’s see where that logic leads us:
Patriotism is one thing; military service is another.
So, Frank, would you say “it is not patriotic to serve in the military”? I sure wouldn’t.
By that logic nothing is “patriotic” but “patriotism” itself. In fact, not even “patriotism” is “patriotic” since one is a noun and the other an adjective.
I hope you understand that I find questioning the President to be more an exercise in futility than an example of “disloyalty”.
I’m sure you do, Frank.
Questioning military leaders without a good education in military science is like getting a second opinion from your Aunt:
I’m sure you’ll be saying crap like that until the next military leader speaks out against the Iraq fiasco.
Dkelsmith if my comments offended you then I apologize. I do not apologize if they offended Frank. Frank genuinely offended me, and not for the first time.
I read your post on your blog and was very moved by it. I look forward to seeing you speaking out the next time anyone, and not just a liberal, uses the troops for political gain.
Wilbur, are you kidding?
You didn’t offend me. You disrespected the dead, by distinguishing the dead in this war from the dead of other wars.
If you didn’t do that, or you didn’t mean to do that, say so. Don’t blame me.
By that logic nothing is “patriotic” but “patriotism” itself.
Something actually is what it is! What a novel thought! No wonder Pres. Clinton had such a problem with it. There are patriotic songs and patriotic acts, and patriotic thoughts. Protest is not one of them.
As for your tortured logic, let’s keep playing, shall we patriotism isn’t a cinder block. It’s not a shoe. And now we’ve proved what?
Nothing. Patriotism is different from protest. It is distinguishable from protest. Patriotism in now way includes protest.
I’ve already said you can protest and be patriotic. What you have not said, yet, is that Memorial Day is not for the criticism of the President or Generals. It is to memorialize the dead.
And that is what you sullied with your profane “prayer”.
As for military leaders, what military leaders who are not involved in the mission think should have been done is food for thought, but not useful tactically or strategically.
Even a private can say to a general, “Sir, I don’t think that’s a good idea.” The question Dugger, Doctor Pedro and I always ask is, “Why didn’t he raise those doubts while he was active?” And if he did, then that’s that.
They heard his input, and took it into consideration. and did what they were going to do.
As for the fucking and pokers in hell, and stuff, it’s certainly no surprise.
You tolerant, open minded liberals have a well stocked larder of hate and venom.
Oliver, Wilbur, Nimrod, Quaker, and everyone else.
I am not, at this present time, able to present myself as a person who subscribes to one particular school of thought regarding Iraq. Try as I may, I cannot discuss this topic objectively, I am entrenched in this with my own fears and worries. I am not saying that nobody should question anybody. I am not saying who is right or who is wrong, because honestly I don’t know. What I do know is that I was surprised that there was nothing said in the original post about the purpose of Memorial Day. The bickering and debate that goes on here is enjoyable. I really like coming here. But I am a little disheartened that as Americans, the observance of Memorial Day can’t be common ground. In short, do something that the combat troops can’t do….take a break, if only just for one post.
Hey, Smith. Good to see you posting again.
You disrespected the dead, by distinguishing the dead in this war from the dead of other wars.
Not in the extent to which they are deserving of our memory, gratitude and honor, which is what you implied, and why my f.u.i.h.w.h.p.f stands.
As for your tortured logic, let’s keep playing, shall we patriotism isn’t a cinder block. It’s not a shoe. And now we’ve proved what?
Holy cow Frank, you tell me what we’ve proved. You’re the one who thought he was saying something substantial when he said that patriotism isn’t X, not me.
I suppose you really would say that military service isn’t patriotic, wouldn’t you?
Can we maybe agree about this: protest can be one way to demonstrate your patriotism, as can military serice?
dkelsmith: I know what you’re saying, but I would just point out that it wasn’t Oliver or any of his liberal commentators who injected the politics into this thread. Admittedly once the politics came in, via Marty, “Jimmy the Dhimmi” etc. we gave as good as we got.
If it’s politics to point out the horrors of war, or to note how many have died since last year, or to repeat the words of people like yourself who are currently serving (which is all Oliver’s original post consisted of), then I guess it’s true that reality has a liberal bias.
That said, God bless you and your comrades. I’m sure all of us here, wingnuts and moonbats alike, hope you and your men make it home safe, and soon.
You’ve deflected and dissembled long enough:
You typed this, and it was this I addressed:
Dear Lord, on this Memorial Day I pray: may no American soldier, or soldier of any nation, ever have to give his/her life again in a criminally ill-managed war of choice.
Can we maybe agree about this: protest can be one way to demonstrate your patriotism…?
Absolutely NOT?
Haven’t you been paying attention?
You can love your country AND protest against one or many of its policies, but protest is not patriotism.
If it’s politics to point out the horrors of war, or to note how many have died since last year, or to repeat the words of people like yourself who are currently serving (which is all Oliver’s original post consisted of), then I guess it’s true that reality has a liberal bias.
What if it’s politics to note how many have died since last year, or to repeat the words of people like yourself who are currently serving (which is all Oliver’s original post consisted of)?
Then it’s true that the true and appropriate way to celebrate has been tainted by a political agenda. You presume (incorrectly) that only liberals oppose war.
If I were to be as unfair as you, I would say that it is winning wars that liberals oppose.
Finally, while military service can be an expression of patriotism, it can also be a way to run away from home, escape from a nagging wife or a monotonous life, or learn a useful profession.
Words mean what they mean, even words like “fuck”, “ass”, “hell”, and “forever”.
And congratulations and thanks to you, DKel, for being the second person on this blog — the second person ever — to call a person on something they shouldn’t have said to me.
“You can love your country AND protest against one or many of its policies, but protest is not patriotism.”
What if the people in charge are doing something that hurts the country? Can you protest out of patriotism then?
C.S., Frank has already told us what he thinks patriotism is:
patriotism n
Love of and devotion to one’s country.
Most sane people would agree that one can protest against the government, or its policies, or its leaders, out of love and devotion for one’s country; i.e., out of patriotism
Yet Frank seems to think that by stating that definition, he has given us some reason to think that patriotic protest is impossible.
I originally thought that he was arguing that since nothing besides patriotism actually is patriotism, then nothing but patriotism can be patriotic. But no, he later informs us that there can be patriotic songs, and patriotic acts. For some reason, which he has not vouchsafed to us, one act, protesting, is not elegible for that epithet.
How to explain this logical rats nest? It could be because Frank is insane, or irrational, or just hasn’t thought it through carefully enough.
I suspect that it is because Frank equates “Love and devotion to one’s country” with “Love and devotion to the country’s president, as long as it’s a president Frank likes.” But, to tell the truth, I’m really done caring.
And congratulations and thanks to you, DKel, for being the second person on this blog — the second person ever — to call a person on something they shouldn’t have said to me.
I believe the first person was me, Frank. Or maybe I’m the third in case you’re forgetting. Anyway, those days are over.
And I might add:
Dear Lord, on this Memorial Day I pray: may no American soldier, or soldier of any nation, ever have to give his/her life again in a criminally ill-managed war of choice.
Damn right that’s what I pray. How horribly horribly terrible of me, but I just can’t help myself.
Actually, you were the first. As for the rest of your gibberish, you may continue the conversation with the ubiquitous CSS.
I’m sure between the two of you’ll figure out what I meant, and what was wrong with it.
As for your “prayer”, I don’t care if you pray for rain. Your prayer was not a memorial of the dead,it was a political expression. IMHO, it was inappropriate for Memorial Day.
At this point, all I can say is that, if you disagree with me, I don’t care.
The idea that the “days are over” when you might call out a person for saying something wrong about another person is extremely venal, and says much more about you than it does about me.
“At this point, all I can say is that, if you disagree with me, I don’t care.”
So you are not going to adress my point.
So you are not going to adress my point.
Why? What purpose would it serve?
you may continue the conversation with the ubiquitous CSS.
Ask wilbur what I meant, now that he is a self – proclaimed expert on my thoughts and opinions.
The idea that the “days are over” when you might call out a person for saying something wrong about another person is extremely venal, and says much more about you than it does about me.
Because the only time I see you calling a person out is when the target is yourself or someone you agree with politically. That speaks volumes about you.
Who is going to call you out for insulting the sincerity and patriotism of me and others on this thread? Certainly not you.
You are a very insulting person, Frank. You don’t say “fuck” or “asshole” much, but it would be more honest if you did.
And don’t blame us if what you write here about patriotism is incoherent and inconsistent. We’ve made an honest effort to understand what you’re trying to say, and have gotten nowhere. Think about it for a while.
Because the only time I see you calling a person out is when the target is yourself or someone you agree with politically. That speaks volumes about you.
Like there’s a liberal on this blog who gets treated like any of the conservatives. If I thought someone made a comment and stepped over the line, I would be the first the say to so. But if someone else says so, I don’t pile on, either. I leave that to the lefties.
And don’t blame us if what you write here about patriotism is incoherent and inconsistent.
Fine, without TELLING me what I meant, without insulting me IN ADVANCE, ask me a question, or ask me to explain something that is puzzling you.
Don’t be surprised if I simply cut and paste from what I said already, because I believe you’re shopping for an answer, and not getting it.