That kind of sums up the last 6 years.
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To what result?
Does that include the years the Democrats supported the invasion of Afghanistan and funded the invasion of Iraq?
The Democratic Party — Retrofitting history since 1960.
It’s not like this never happened before — with the same results.
It’s so clearly the democrats fault that George Bush fucked up his war on terror.
No, frameone, it’s your fault.
Who really cares whose fault it is but Democrats?
Who seeks to rake in political capital by abandoning the Iraqis but the Democrats?
Who’s more interesting in making Pres. Bush look bad than killing terrorists, but the Democrats?
The Democrats are trying as hard as they can to leave Iraq in turmoil, and turn their government over to the Sharia, just to win an election. They have no shame, and they don’t care about anything but perqs.
“Don’t question our patriotism”? OK, fine…
But don’t ever try talking that “brown people” shit again when I’m around.
Now the Democrats have screwed Vietnam, and they’re about to screw Iraq. I hope you’re proud.
Frank: “the Democrats have screwed Vietnam…
Cripes, Frank, how many times do we have to go over this?
NIXON screwed Vietnam.
NIXON.
NIXON.
Remember This thread?
Typical, though. Conservatives fuck everything up and then point fingers at every liberal within pointing distance.
Example: “The Democrats are trying as hard as they can to leave Iraq in turmoil, and turn their government over to the Sharia…”
Let’s see, Iraq was a secular country until Bush’s illegal immoral war of choice utterly destroyed their society and opened the door for a theocracy (and lots and lots of terrorists). But that must be the Democrats’ fault.
This is why you’re called a “thirty-percenter” Frank. Bush could totally fuck up two wars, destabilize the region, increase worldwide terrorism, and make us considerably less safe and you would still defend him. You’ve got your own BDS, Frank. You’re too blinded by your hatred of Lib’ruls to see what a complete fuck up your President is and your party has become.
And this is slightly OT, but:
“The Democratic Party — Retrofitting history since 1960.”
Yeah. This from Conservapedia. “[George W.] Bush worked with Democrats to raise the minimum wage to a more livable level.”
Who’s retrofitting history?
“This from Conservapedia”? What’s that? The tablets from the mountain?
The situation is what it is. As I said (you know, the part you ignored?) “Who really cares whose fault it is but Democrats?” And why? Because blaming somebody deflects the issue at hand: What do we do now? Now… Not 2002, not 2003, but NOW!
What do we do now?!?
As for how many times we have to go over what happened in Vietnam, I’ve gone over it enough times I’ve probably read more books on Vietnam and the United States than you even know exist) to KNOW that Congress stopped the funding of the South Vietnamese, because they couldn’t order Nixon to stop.
You can go over it, and holler “Scowcroft” and “Cambodia” and “Kissinger” until your head falls off, but the end result will be that Congress stopped the funding of the South Vietnamese, because they couldn’t order Nixon to stop.
Congress stopped the funding of the South Vietnamese, because they couldn’t order Nixon to stop.
Exactly like they are trying to do now in Iraq. Iraq will be destroyed, if they get away with it. Do you think we will have troops “just over the ridge”?
If we leave Iraq, do you think we’ll ever go back? Of course we won’t.
Do you care? Of course, you don’t.
And don’t tell me how peaceful Iraq was before we got there. It was ten times worse than Yugoslavia, and look what happened to them.
If it was the Democrats’ fault you’d care. You’d care like bears.
“Who seeks to rake in political capital”
You have got to be fucking kidding me. The Republicans are about nothing more than politics, or have you forgotten about the fired D.A.s already? Everything NeoCons do is about keeping the party strong, even if it hurts the country.
“by abandoning the Iraqis but the Democrats?”
The Iraqis want you out of there, so how can you call it abandoning them?
If Bush had any positive accomplishments to point at congress would not dare to stop funding. Its as simple as that.
We can go over mistake by mistake, wasted dollars, missing dollars, dead soldiers, growing violence, chaos, growing terrorism, etc etc etc, but the fact remains Bush’s own history of failure has allowed and nearly dictated that the Democrats undercut him in Iraq.
CSS: What in the world do the eight fired D.A.’s have to do with this?
Even if they were fired because they weren’t fighting hard enough to prosecute Democrats, a point which hasn’t even been formally made, let alone proved, what does that have to do with Sen. Reid’s statement that are “votes to be won” by pulling out of Iraq. He did say that, you know.
midderpidge: The war in Iraq is not about President Bush. It. Is. Not. About. President. Bush.
It is about the War on Terror. Just like people were wrong to say that in Vietnam we were in a civil war, it is wrong now to say that this war is about Sunnis versus Shiites, and wrong to say that it is about Muslims versus Jews, and wrong to say that it is about Democrats versus Republicans.
This war is about an organized, equipped and financed group of Islamic fanatics who want to bring down the Great Satan,the USA.
That, and nothing more. Not WMD’s, not Hussein’s role in 9/11, and not keeping Pres. Bush in office.
Well at least this week it is, just wait a week and the justification changes.
Frank: ““Who really cares whose fault it is …
What do we do now?!?”
It matters whose fault it is because why should we trust the incompetent criminal self-serving dill-holes who got us into the quagmire to get us out of it? Bush already admitted that it will be the next president’s problem. Seems he’s content to just set the war on cruise control until he can high-tail it back to Crawford or wherever the fuck he’s going to slither off to.
“Iraq will be destroyed, if they get away with it.”
As opposed to the immaculate condition we’ve got it in now? Maybe another “Shock And Awe” campaign will help. How about more Depleted Uranium? Maybe we can pump raw sewage through the streets until everyone just gets tired of the smell and stops hating us being there.
And if you’re arguing that the Congressional Democrats screwed South Vietnam by cutting off their aid after we left, then wouldn’t it be OK for us to pull out of Iraq, as long as we continue to (or start to) provide them aid after we leave?
“And don’t tell me how peaceful Iraq was before we got there.”
I’m not saying it was peaceful. It was a sovereign country that hadn’t attacked us and posed no threat to us. There were ways to take care of Saddam that didn’t involve destroying their country. But you don’t give a shit about that, do you? Of course not. As long as we don’t blame Bush, it’s all good.
If it is about the war on terror we should have gotten out of there 2 years ago. Iraq has turned into a recruiting center, a training center, and a funding center for anti-US terrorists. All the while draining US resources, military, treasury and international standing and alliances. George Bush’s war in Iraq is a serious and ongoing blunder in the war on terror.
And yes, it is about President Bush. He has essentially wasted 4 years, $400,000,000,000, 4,000 American lives, 600,000 Iraqi lives, the readiness of the US military and the entire country of IRaq with nothing to show for it. It took him 3 1/2 years to admit things weren’t going well. He has a disconnect from reality and wants more money and lives to waste.
At best, extending the US occupation would only buy time for a diplomatic solution. That becomes harder every day and every act of sectarian violence. And Bush has ZERO diplomatic ability. He is unwilling and unable to solve the problem.
Iraq is about the civil war. It is in this chaos that Al Qaeda is able to sit back and join the various factions in sniping at pinned down US forces.
Iraq had nothing to do with the War on Terror before we got there, you know. Or is that too far back to remember now?
As I said on another thread: Incomprehensibility and doublespeak passes for genius around here.
Just for the record,
We haven’t spent $400,000,000,000 in Iraq
We have not lost 4,000 American lives in Iraq, and We have not taken 600,000 Iraqi lives in Iraq.
And there were no other “ways to take care of Saddam that didn’t involve destroying their country” (None that had worked to date, anyway)
Of course, if we leave, we’ll never be able to calculate the difference between the lives lost by our presence, and the lives lost by our absence.
Then again, the “bean counting” will end, because it won’t be American lives.
{Pop quiz: How many Vietnamese and Cambodians died at sea trying to escape?}
ND: You have exactly one thing right: We can supply the Iraqis with support, aid, assistance and advisers after we leave.
The question is: Will we?
What would be our motivation?
Wouldn’t the objections of your left wing buddies hold true (civil war, sectarian violence, waste of money, American lives)?
Of course, it would…
You know it, and I know it.
I would love it, if we just pack up and split — the guys and gals come home, back to their stores and offices and schools and families; but there’s a saying: In for a penny, in for a pound.
This isn’t the Cold War, where the other side has a stake in their own preservation.
There’s a story about a conversation between Stalin and Mao: Stalin tried to “muscle” Mao (before he had a nuclear weapon), by saying “We will get our way, because we have the A - Bomb”, and Mao replied, “You don’t want to trade dead with the Chinese”.
That algorithm is not the same with Islamic radicals. We can kill enough of them to make joining the jihad less attractive. We can have homeland security like Israel does — no one has hijacked an El Al airliner.
It can be done. Do you want to say Pres. Bush is not the guy to do it? OK, let’s debate that. Do I wish it was someone else, right now? Yes. But he’s who we’ve got.
Do you want to debate our need to be in Iraq? That I will no longer do. I remember Vietnam. I remember it personally. I know that my friends were killed or placed in re - education camps because they worked for the Army. That must not happen again.
Sorry Frank, $421 BILLION. 4000+ American lives. 600,000+ Iraqi lives. 1.6 million Iraqi refugees. 50,000 wounded AMerican Soldiers. And no diplomatic effort underway to speak of, keep skipping that point, Frank.
It’s funny how you say we can have homeland security like Israel does, given that your wonderboy George Bush treats domestic anti-terrorism priorities like a red-haired step child. Proof: New Orleans.
“CSS: What in the world do the eight fired D.A.’s have to do with this?”
Are you really that stupid? Yes you are.
“Even if they were fired because they weren’t fighting hard enough to prosecute Democrats, a point which hasn’t even been formally made,”
Yes it has.
“let alone proved,”
That’s only because investigations take time and Gonzales repeatedly lied to congress about the issues.
Let’s try it again, CSS: What in the world do the eight fired D.A.’s have to do with this?
And, if you can’t answer the question, just type, “I dunno”, and be done with it.
Considering you raised the point, and you haven’t answered the question, I would reckon it’s you that seems stupid.
But I’m prepared to hear how you tie the firing of the attorneys to the war in Iraq. It’s not going be like one of those “Six Degrees of Separation from Kevin Bacon” things, is it?
$421 BILLION — wrong
4000+ American lives — wrong
600,000+ Iraqi lives — wrong
And no diplomatic effort underway to speak of
You mean we should recognize the Ambassador from AlQaedia?
Or the Diplomat from Terrorististan?
This is the same crap the antiwar left was trying to sling during the Vietnam war, when the [North] Vietnamese had exactly one bargaining chip: Pull out all American troops or we won’t surrender.
Who’s got what to offer us? The Palestinians have reneged on their promises to rein in their terrorists since Carter’s Presidency, yet he continues to denounce the Israeli’s recalcitrance.
What happens when Syria or Iran promises (with their fingers crossed) to stay out of Iraqi affairs if we leave, and then we leave, and they make a move?
Of course, it will be justified with, “You are just infidels! We don’t have to keep our promises to you”.
What do we do then? You know what will happen then
The real plan is: Get the fuck out — yesterday. Fuck the Iraqis, and just forget about the whole thing. Keep up the security checks at the airports, and wait for the next big thing to blow up. I guess you’re planning on not being near it, eh?
There’s an apocryphal story about a man who after World War I, wanted no more to do with wars. He thought, “I won’t live in Europe, or Asia, North America, or even South America or Africa”.
He moved to Pearl Harbor, in Hawaii.
“Let’s try it again, CSS: What in the world do the eight fired D.A.’s have to do with this?”
Oh fucking hell. Can someone here translate English into Dumb for me?
Never mind, I’ll try it myself.
…
It’s about hypocrisy.
You are claiming Reid is doing this for political gain. Of course, attacking a POLITICIAN for being POLITICAL seems a might bit strange.
The eight DAs that were fired were fired for political reasons. The justice department was manipulated for political reasons. Choices made in the JUSTICE department were made for POLITICAL reasons.
See the problem? Of course you don’t.
You are attacking Reid for being political, even though he has a mandate from the people to move in this direction. Yet you think bringing politics into the law is just fine.
You are a hypocrite.
CSS: There is a war going on!
Let me repeat myself (for the “smart” one): “Even if they were fired because they weren’t fighting hard enough to prosecute Democrats … what does that have to do with Sen. Reid’s statement that are ‘votes to be won’ by pulling out of Iraq”.
You mean telling all those American men and women over there, that they’re wasting their time, telling the Iraqis, “Fuck you! You’re on your own”, is simply politics as usual?
Holy crap! That takes the cake. Firing political appointees you have every right to fire is the same as abandoning a country and its people to the wolves.
If we have to lose the war on terror, just so people like you stay alive, then fuck it.
Who cares.
Because, obviously, you don’t.
$421 billion - RIGHT
4000+ American Lives - RIGHT
600,000+ Iraqi lives - probably Close.
If you don’t think my numbers are right, post your own so I can try to figure out where you’re coming from.
You mean we should recognize the Ambassador from AlQaedia?
Or the Diplomat from Terrorististan?
Pure fucking ignorance, Frank.
As much as most war supporters insist Iraq is nothing like Vietnam and run from any comparisons, frank can’t seem to seperate the two.
“telling the Iraqis, “Fuck you! You’re on your own”"
Okay Frank, you want to act this fucking stupid, that’s your business. But let’s be clear, the Iraqis want the Americans out of there. Every poll shows this to be true.
And guess what, the American intelligence agencies, all of them, say that being in Iraq is making America less safe and Americans want the Americans out of there as well.
Got that?
You only defense is complaining that Reid says doing what the American people want will win votes for the Dems. That’s it. Oh no. How terrible can he be?
Your are defending a plan that is helping no one by the terrorists you are pretending to fight. You couldn’t be helping Osama bin Laden more if you were on the other side.
…
Let me rephrase that last part.
You couldn’t be helping Osama bin Laden more if you were officially on the other side.
I repeat: Doublespeak and incomprehensibility pass for genius around here.
I pass. Let the Iraqis go to hell. If there is a spark of conscience in any of you, it will be on your conscience.
And midderpidge, this isn’t a word game or a high school debating contest, you dick. Real people and real lives are at stake. I know to you they’re just numbers, but I knew real people. And you know why this war is like Vietnam (and you’re calling me ignorant)? Because we’re losing our nerve — again. We’re showing the world we’re a paper tiger — again. We’re showing the Third World, that if “You ain’t white, you ain’t alright” — again. We’re showing the terrorists that if they hang on, we will give up — again.
And if that’s ignorance, educate me. What did I miss?
While you’re sitting by the pool in the backyard this summer, you can think about some 19 year old kid taking a bullet, just before the last day on the Democrats’ timetable, or women and and children being slaughtered by Islamic fanatics because they had the temerity to make friends with GI’s.
But don’t worry, there will be a special on PBS about Right wing violence. You can just turn that Iraq shit off.
Your ignorance is in assuming AL Qaeda is the driving force of violence and opposition in Iraq. It’s that simple.
My numbers stand. $421 billion. The portion of that for reconstruction has been totally wasted or stolen. 4,000 dead americans, 600,000 dead Iraqis, 1.6 milion displaced. Corruption and violence rule the land. Sunnis fighting Shiites. Al Qaeda trying to stir the pot so we waste more resources there.
Diplomacy would be sitting down and trying to reconcile the SUnnis and Shiites and Kurds, or at least get them talking. Solve some of their differneces, engage other countries in the region, involve them, solve problems etc.
ANd Frank, those women and children are already being slaughtered. 21 were recently executed because John McCain visited a market.
“I pass. Let the Iraqis go to hell. If there is a spark of conscience in any of you, it will be on your conscience.”
Why? I said you shouldn’t go in there in the first place because I knew this was how it would turn out. I also know that nothing the States does short of dropping 500,000 troops into the region will change the situation, and even then, 500,000 more troops might just make the situation worse.
The best thing you can do now is to leave and learn from your mistakes.
All the car bombs, all the executions, all the rapes happening in Iraq right now are the result of a Republican government who refused to listen to the evidence and right-wingers like you who voted them in. This is your mess and some day soon it is going to explode on American soil and on that day remember you are responsible for 1000s more deaths.