The most prominent part of the sentence seems to be about silencing the prisoner and not about punishing his crimes.

Also, Jay, proving Bush wasn’t AWOL (I personally don’t think the TANG cared what Bush did given his political connections) should be very simple all you have to do is use his service record to disprove any claim. I mean a timeline of service dates and stations should be readily available. Except its not.

And Kerry had people working in his campaign who worked for MoveOn.org, and organization that spread lies and distortions about President Bush.

I guess Senator Kerry should resign.

More than that, frame, did you see how blatantly he was sucking up to Kerry during JK’s questioning?

Talk about character.

Exactly my point. There are some opinions and organizations that would make someone unfit for service as an ambassador. Here, however, Fox’s opinion, that Kerry should not be president, isn’t even the question. Jay wants it to be so he can play his favorite role as the scold. But Fox put money into an organization that spread lies and distortions about Kerry. Not a good sign of the man’s character.

How’s that for free speech? Express the right kind of partisan political speech in the right $$$ way and you’ll be rewarded with prestige appointments.

So save your false indignation.

Besides which many of the members of the committee felt Fox was misleading or dishonest in some of his answers. Couple that with his willingness to fund a vicious lie-based smear attack on one of the committee members, and you can kiss that nomination goodbye.

And there you have it. You may not realize it, but you just basically admitted that exercising his opinion cost him a government post. Congratulations.

Your MoveOn example is just bullshit. Where was the lie? Bush was AWOL.

I knew it. Like I said, reasonable people understand the charge that “Bush was AWOL” was a lie. And since Bush was never charged with being AWOL, since he was never reprimanded for being AWOL and nobody other than partisan hacks accused him of being AWOL, he wasn’t AWOL and to say so is a lie. Apparently, you don’t fit into the category of reasonable, but you do fit into the category of hack. As such, since you’re going to behave like a hack, the conversation is over.

Bullshit. The Swift Boat Vets were political payback for Kerry’s activities in the 1970s and you couldn’t “give a rat’s ass.” Lying about a presidential candidates military record and funding those lies is a-okay in your book (because you don’t care about it) but actually holding someone accountable for doing so a threat to our very way of life.

Again, if the Senate were suggesting that Fox’s opposition to Kerry was the reason he didn’t get the gig that would be one thing. But clearly here Fox was unfit for the position because of the way he chose to exercise his opinion.

Your MoveOn example is just bullshit. Where was the lie? Bush was AWOL.

Once again you’re using my quotes out of context. I accept that it is standard in politics because it just is. Always has been, and always will be. That’s just a simple fact.

I said I didn’t give a “rat’s ass” about ‘discourse’ as it related to this issue. Bare knuckle politics is also routine. What I do care about is free speech being squelched for political payback.

you’ve certainly got yourself all tied up in knots about a little political payback. As if it too isn’t a part of every aspect of politics.

This isn’t just ‘political payback.’ See above.

“In our judgment, those who finance smears and lies of combat veterans don’t deserve to represent America on the world stage,” said the letter signed by 11 Vietnam Swift Boat veterans who served with Kerry.

Wonderful. I’ll guess you’d accept that anybody who has every donated money to MoveOn.org is now disqualified to represent America on the world stage.

And you’re getting your panties in a bunch over nothing, jay. For a guy who accepts that lies and smears are part of politics as usual — and who doesn’t “give a rat’s ass” that it is — you’ve certainly got yourself all tied up in knots about a little political payback. As if it too isn’t a part of every aspect of politics.

I don’t have a problem with anyone suggesting that FOx’s behavior is unebcoming an ambassador, no matter how much money he gave to the republicans.

But here’s something I wasn’t aware of, some of Kerry’s fellow veterans wrote a letter :

“In our judgment, those who finance smears and lies of combat veterans don’t deserve to represent America on the world stage,” said the letter signed by 11 Vietnam Swift Boat veterans who served with Kerry.

I would think that conservative leaders such as Tom Delay who have argued that some democrats and liberals should charged with treason for their political views going on four years now could get behind this sentiment. Will John Murtha ever be tried for treason? Maybe he will, maybe he won’t. The bottom line is, that door has now been opened …

Why?

The bottom line is that Fox paid the price not for his opinion, but for his willingness to back liars and smears merchants.

No, the bottom line is, he paid the price because he specifically donated to the Swift Boat Veterans.

You’re suggesting that the Senate rejected Fox because he was opposed to Kerry.

No, I’m suggesting the Democrats rejected him as part of payback for Kerry. And if you don’t believe that is the case, then you’re just a rube.

I highly doubt you will see them reject the next candidate because he or she supported Bush.

Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. The bottom line is, that door has now been opened.

When does it stop? When do some Senators determine that a membership in the NRA or the ACLU is unworthy of an ambassadorship?

And let’s not pretend that ambassadorships are handed out based on merit alone. Fat contributions and being a friend of the President helps.

That’s an astonishing point of view.

The bottom line is that Fox paid the price not for his opinion, but for his willingness to back liars and smears merchants. You’re suggesting that the Senate rejected Fox because he was opposed to Kerry. That’s bullshit and you should know it. I highly doubt you will see them reject the next candidate because he or she supported Bush.

That should read:

Again, the fact that you find such a chilling effect on free speech so perfectly acceptable is astounding.

Where did I say that? However, lies and smears are part and parcel of political campaigns and if you actually believe that it only exists on one side of the spectrum then there’s no point in even discussing it any further because you’d be a hopeless case. See the ‘Texans For Truth’ smear ads funded by MoveOn.org against President Bush. Reasonable people accept that the “Bush was awol” story was bullshit, but that didn’t stop them from running those ads anyway.

Now, according to your standards, anybody that every donated money to MoveOn.org is prohibited from holding any government position because after all, why should somebody that supports liars and smear merchants represent our government?

and now you think that supporting liars and smear merchants is an acceptable quality in our ambassadors

There you go again with the bogus conclusions that you continually pull out of your ass. Don’t twist my statements to fit your preconceived agenda. Once again, what is ‘lies and smears’ is a subjective viewpoint based upon who controls the Senate. Senator A may think Swift Boat veterans were 100% truthful while Senator B may believe they were full of crap. On the other end of the spectrum a different nominee could come before the Senate and this time, Senator A thinks MoveOn.org is an organization that peddles lies and smears and that this nominee should not go forward because he donated to that group and Senator B will see it differently.

I know that you have an amazing inability to comprehend these matters, so instead you knock it down to childish conclusions. But the fact remains that the door has been opened to prevent people from serving in government positions based upon monetary donations they made to political organizations.

Again, the fact that you find such a chilling effect on free speech is astounding.

This is the same White House who rejected Government contracts to bidders based on political affiliation.

I found this yesterday. Some of it may be crime and corruption, some not. Pretty much all of it smacks of impropriety.

Florida
Inaction on Israel-Palestine
Ashcroft
9-11
PATRIOT Act
Tora Bora
Rushing to war with Iraq
Fallujah
The “Salvador option”
Abu Ghraib
That Gannon guy
Gonzales
Valerie Plame
Bankruptcy legislation
John Bolton
Terry Schiavo legislation
Downing Street Memos
Extraordinary Renditioning
Kelo v. City of New London
Mad Cow in Texas
MDs help with Guantanamo questioning
Roberts involved in 2000 recount
Meddling in crafting of Iraq’s new oil policy
Katrina
Roberts
Miers brief nomination
Resisting anti-torture legislation
Oil’s record profits
Alito
Paying Iraqi reporters for favorable articles
CIA prison “black sites”
Medicaid prescription plan
Air marshals shot that guy
Sago Mine explosion
Wiretapping
Not taking care of Veterans
Pentagon in on domestic spying
Military detains wives of wanted Iraqis
Medicaid cuts
Abramoff
Global warming denial
“Improved” PATRIOT Act
Medicare cuts
Not charging royalties for oil pumped from federal land
Depleted uranium weapons used in Iraq
Civil war
Undermining mine safety regulations
Increasing national debt
Development of new nuclear weapons
Civilian casualties in Iraq
Saber rattling on Iran
India nuclear deal
Watering down lobbying rule changes
Prosecution cheated on Moussaoui case
Seemingly permanent military bases being built in Iraq
We don’t need no stinking warrants
40 year high corporate profits – labor rates? not so much
White House involved in election day phone jamming scheme
Reclassification of public documents
Tony Snow
Undercutting state regulations on health insurers
NSA data mining
National Guard sent to Mexican border
Threatening reporters who reveal government activities
Flawed voting machines
Teh powerful Christian Right
Pushing the limits of the Geneva Conventions
Guantanamo suicides
Wiping their ass with the fourth amendment
Darby coal mine disaster
Presidential signing statements, unprecedented use of
Lebanon
Military tribunals legislation
Study: 655,000 dead in Iraq
Operation Shifting Rationale
Lowered standards detainee treatment worldwide
Vote suppression
Non-citizens may be held indefinitely
Violence in Iraq underreported
18,000 votes disappear in Florida e-voting machines
$billions lost yearly to corruption in Iraq
Pentagon and CIA examining financial records of Americans
Prosecutor purge
Moonenites invade Boston
Size of surge double what was sold
Exaggerating case of Iran’s involvement in Iraq violence
Nukes an option for a strike against Iran
Squalor at Walter Reed
Reasons for administration breaking the law are state secrets

All of which really only touches on our insane budget priorities and other domestic issues like tax cuts, no child left behind, “clear skies” legislation, a bogus tobacco settlement, the Real ID Act, gerrymandered congressional districts…

Okay. So you think lies and smears are acceptable in politcal campaigns and now you think that supporting liars and smear merchants is an acceptable quality in our ambassadors (and this quality is just like being gay). Just so we’re clear.

I don’t give a rats ass about discourse as the world of politics is an ugly game at times. If Fox had to sit there and endure all sorts of criticism for his donations, then that is fair game. But when people are denied government posts because somebody didn’t like the speech they engaged in, then we’ve started down a slippery slope.

It’s stunning that you cannot grasp that.

Jay: someday a Republican congress will sink a democratic nomination because of some past political statement or association.

And when that happens you, Jay, will not raise a word in protest.

Wanna bet? You people can call me all the names you want but when it comes to free speech and the freedom of association, I don’t give a shit who is on the receiving end. It’s just out and out wrong. And if a GOP controlled committee in the future decides to tank a nomination because they donated money to NOW or PFAW or some other liberal organization then I will be the first to stand up and call them out on it.