The post-Bush shift in the national consensus continues.
As the field of announced presidential candidates is established, the Democrats are gaining ground with the U.S. public as the party they trust to improve and reform the U.S. healthcare system. Senator Hillary Clinton is most trusted on this issue overall, largely because of high levels of confidence among Democrats. She and the Democrats are more trusted now than they were in March 2006, while trust in President Bush declines.
People are learning: you can’t trust people who hate the government to run your government.
Uh, right, Hillarycare…
In Illinois Sen. Obama did a universal bill that covered everyone under 18 without insurance. With repub. control in Springfield.
And guess what, it’s successful!
How about Hillarycare????
chickengeorge is dragging the whole party down with him. Of course the cowardly fuck doesn’t care, he will sell the pigfarm in ‘09 and move back home to his family compound in Kennebunkport, ME.
As long as “healthcare” is viewed as “money for nothing”, the Democrats will ‘own the issue’.
After all, spending other people’s money is what Democrats do best.
But if this time, the wrangling over healthcare subsidization is public, the American people will not be fooled by rhetoric.
To anyone who is deluded by the prospect of “free medical care”, you need not read about England’s system, or visit Canada. You only have to go to the nearest large hospital clinic where they accept Medicaid patients.
You will see all you need to see.
And of course I guess “spending other people’s money” isn’t something the Republicans do at all? I suppose not mentioning the Iraq war in regards to the Trilion’s it costs us won’t do any good?
Personally I’d rather some of that money goto free healthcare… or at least better healthcare for our wounded military. Shame…
Frank is right on target yet again. Socialist medicine is just “care for free” and spends other people’s money. Let’s spend OUR money where we have the most bang for our buck.
Let’s attack Iran. After all, they MAY get WMD’s, whereas the 47 million uninsured are going to die anyway so why bother?
spending other people’s money is what Democrats do best.
It is unfortunate that the Republicans are trying to beat them at it, but they haven’t so far.
BTW, beans: Subtract from those 47 million those who choose to pay for their own health care, those who hardly get sick,and so don’t want a health care plan, and those who could have access to free health care, but don’t know how,or haven’t done so yet, or are in the process of applying; and you’re probably left with about 8 people in need of health care.
This is America, not Rwanda.
FD ….
Certainly you jest. No, this may not be Rwanda but your argument is insultingly juvenile.
My husband and I do pay for our healthcare – to the tune of over $600/month, up from $400/month last year. That’s more than our monthly housing payment. Many people he works with don’t have it simply because they can’t afford to pay that high of a premium and keep their homes, cars, pay bills, feed kids, etc., not to mention covering deductibles and co-pays. Please don’t shovel the load of crap associated with the “free healthcare isn’t free so keep it privatized” spiel. No kidding. That’s a given. The point is it should be affordable, and when health insurance per month costs more then food, shelter, clothing, or a car payment, and is rarely used but can not be gone without, it is NOT affordable.
As far as your argument about healthy people that don’t need healthcare – who are these folks and in what alternative universe do they exist? Insurance is for in case you get sick – healthy people need it just as much as the sick, and anyone who fools themselves into thinking otherwise is sorely mistaken – probably to the tune of a several thousand dollar hospital bill when they get hurt or ill. It happens, quite literally, to everyone sooner or later. “I don’t need it because I’m healthy” ranks right up there with “I don’t need a colon exam because everything comes out all right”. Christ – tell me do you advocate having flood insurance only when it rains, too? Fire insurance only during a drought?
As far as your idea that people are just in the process of applying and whatnot – um, no. I have quite a few friends who are doing very badly right now and have applied for state medical insurance. You’d think that would cover things. NO. They get a little card in the mail the state gives them that covers their bills – if a doctor will take it. Most don’t, because rather than the inflated charges they bill my private insurance company, the state will only give X amount to them for the same service. Why take less for doing the same thing when you can get (not kidding here) three times that from BC/BS? And the kicker – the ones that do are so overbooked that they aren’t taking any more patients!
The entire situation with medical care in this country is perverse, and the inane arguments you’re making here to support the perpetuation of the current mess is sickening.
Then again, like me you have your private health insurance, so why should you care, right?
those who hardly get sick,and so don’t want a health care plan,
Hey, I never get in car accidents. Why am I paying so much for car insurance?
These people Frank are talking about are BRILLIANT.
LM: I don’t have private health insurance, but you do.
So, you have health insurance. The mantra is that “47 million people don’t have health insurance.”
I didn’t say, “They’re healthy, and don’t need it.” I said they were healthy so they didn’t want it.
The rest of your rant was mildly entertaining, but besides the point.
Why get mad at me? If you have a health insurance problem, I’ll be glad to offer you some suggestions, but berating me reall gets you nowhere.
Another home run Frank. Health insurance isn’t for healthy people, it’s for SICK people. Healthy people are smart enough to realize that buying insurance is a suckers game. Only sick people should buy insurance. The problem is, all the sick people are driving up the cost of their own insurance. You can’t fool ol’ Frank with that health insurance scam.
OK Frank, we have health insurance that we can barely afford as opposed to the other 20 or so guys that my husband works with that just can’t. Great. Yippee for us because we have it a fraction of an inch better on the scale than my next door neighbor (who has a state insurance card no doctor will take), who actually had to give her kid the fish pill form of an antibiotic because she couldn’t get a doctor to see him and write a proper ’script. Sure, she could have taken him to the hospital had he been a little sicker – like near death – but hey she’s INSURED right? Why the anger? Because I’m sick and tired of people making every excuse in the world to not care about everyone else, and then having the nerve to bitch when it’s them and no one cares. We are the most advanced, wealthiest, and most productive country on earth and yet we can’t make sure everyone has good and affordable healthcare? It’s pathetic! I don’t know what sickens me more – the crappy healthcare system or the apathy that perpetuates it!
Beans, Stop being a clown. I don’t need the aggravation.
LM: Do you now want the government to provide free (meaning not paid by the insured) health insurance?
Then just say, “I don’t think anyone in America should pay for medical care… I want socialized medicine”.
I didn’t say, “They’re healthy, and don’t need it.” I said they were healthy so they didn’t want it.
Translation: “Poor people don’t exist.”
Then just say, “I don’t think anyone in America should pay for medical care… I want socialized medicine”.
“And we should get rid of those ’socialized’ school & ’socialized’ roads & ’socialized’ security & ’socialized’ national defense.”
That’s Frank for ya, he’d rather see millions of Americans go without sufficient health care than lose that extra $2.50.
zython: You insensate biped!
What “I didn’t say, “They’re healthy, and don’t need it.” I said they were healthy so they didn’t want it” means is that there are people in America who don’t take formal actions to enroll in health care plans, because they see themselves as healthy, and view paying for a health care plan as an unnecessary expense.
Is that wise? No, probably not. Are they entitled to their choice? YES.
Secondly, if you think that no one should pay for health care out of their own pocket, but that health care should be paid for out of tax revenues, then don’t be shy about it.
Don’t ask for a “single payer HMO” as if no one will recognize that you are in favor of socialized medicine. Come right out and say so.
And, zython, instead of making criticism of me your claim to fame, why don’t you use your head for something besides a hat rack, and generate a comment?
You, s and beans are literally useless around here.
Yes Frank, I believe that healthcare should be socialized. Are you happy now? I thought it was pretty obvious from the get go, but if you need me to spell it out for you okay then. And yes, I’m aware it will make everyone’s taxes higher. I don’t have a problem with paying higher taxes when there are obvious benefits for all. There is no reason why my neighbor shouldn’t have been able to get an appointment for her kid – no reason other than greed. This may be a financial issue on the surface but it is a moral issue in the long term, and a societal morality issue at that. Every person from about the age of eight knows the basic difference between right and wrong, and you’re not going to tell me that it is right that anyone be denied care, or care is made so expensive that they can’t afford to get it, or patient X should be able to get the proper treatment while patient Y gets substandard care because their insurance “doesn’t cover that”. Sickening.
Frank: “I don’t have private health insurance…”
Damn, Frank. It’s pretty gutsy for a 60 year old man to go without health insurance. Are you one of those who never gets sick? I’ve been to a doctor once in the past 3 years, and have only taken one sick day in the past 7 years, but I still have insurance.
No question the health care system is broken. But LMM has meandered down that slippery slope of taking things from other people…
Liberals are always interested in making others work for them for free. In this case it is the evil doctor who won’t agree to see patients for nothing.
You want socialized medicine? Fine. Don’t think that having a government insurance card is going to get you any better access. Yup, people who make more money than you do will end up financing most of it, so you do win there.
You confuse the reality of the situation with your feelings. “Care made so expensive…” Who is making it “so expensive”? Is it the democrats who are so beholden to trial lawyers that they refuse to pass malpractice reform? Is it the patients who, once given “free” access to medical care, abuse it? (My “no-show” rate from my state insurance patients, even for things like surgery ((just not showing up for the case!))is about 4x higher in the “free” insurance population).
Is it patients who now believe that “standard care” includes getting an MRI everytime they get a headache?
People like you want mercedes benz medicine but don’t even want to spend Yugo money.
Whatever. Wait until you see what happens to medical care in this country when it is socialized….
Pedro: “…the evil doctor who won’t agree to see patients for nothing.”
That’s a great argument, Pedro. Show me where any “liberal” anywhere said that doctors shouldn’t get paid. Oh, that’s right, you don’t want to counter actual arguments because then you’d lose.
“Don’t think that having a government insurance card is going to get you any better access.”
How about if we get the same level of access for less money? How about if poor people are afforded our standard level of access?
“People like you want mercedes benz medicine but don’t even want to spend Yugo money.”
Maybe we’re just tired of paying Mercedes prices for Chevrolet service.
nihilistic_disintegration: I don’t have private health insurance. I’m on Medicaid. That’s how I know there’s no such thing as “free”, or even cheap, medicine.
LM: Why is the health of others your concern, but not their economic freedom? You want to know that others are getting health care, but, apparently, you don’t want to know how others will pay for it. You may be willing to pay extra taxes for health care, but others may be unable, or unwilling to. I’m thinking about them. I’m also thinking about the general inefficiency and non – productivity of public administration.
Frank, why are you on Medicaid? I though that government insurance was the Great Satan. Hasn’t that been your argument all through this thread? Why don’t you have private insurance? Don’t feel like it? Why are you using my tax dollars to pay for your healthcare? Seems mighty selfish of you.
I’d call you a hypocrite, but it probably isn’t necessary at this point.
And you can’t trust people who love government(read: the use of force) to run things either.
What we need is someone with a healthy skepticism of power, like Bill Clinton. Not well-meaning but naive people who believe that for every problem there is a government solution.
nihilistic_disintegration: I’m on Medicaid, because I’m eligible. You can figure out the rest.
What we need is someone with a healthy skepticism of power, like Bill Clinton.
For a guy with a “healthy skepticism of power”, he sure luxuriated in it.
Frank: “You can figure out the rest.”
I can figure out you’re a hypocrite. Why is government-fininced health insurance good enough for you, but not everyone else? Why don’t you cancel your Medicaid membership and go get yourself some private insurance? How can you deride anyone who suggests that socialized healthcare may be good for this country when the entire time you’re sucking off that teat yourself? Doesn’t that strike you as just a wee bit two-faced?
Like when you said, “You may be willing to pay extra taxes for health care, but others may be unable, or unwilling to. I’m thinking about them.”
You’re thinking about them? You mean when you suck up some of that extra tax money that they pay every month so you don’t have to go get private health insurance? Is that when you think of them?
“I’m on Medicaid, because I’m eligible.”
Well, shit. I guess that makes it okay then, right? You’re gonna grab every last cent worth of taxpayer-funded services because you can. great, Frank. Did you ever think that if you didn’t use services you don’t need, the gov’t might not have to provide them, which in turn might lower your taxes?
Nah. I guess it’s easier to just bitch about teh Libruls.
nihilistic_disintegration: You’re starting to sound like a typical phony liberal. I have no reason to defend myself.
Go here, and read “How do I know if I qualify for Medicaid?”
Anyone in that situation should receive Medicaid. My point was not that people should not have health care. My point is, and was, if you re-read my previous post, it says. “Subtract from those 47 million those who … could have access to free health care, but don’t know how,or haven’t done so yet, or are in the process of applying…”
I am not suggesting doing away with Medicaid or Medicare. I’m not even talking about people abusing the system — hardly anyone does, because hardly anyone can.
But I think it is not my hypocrisy or selfishness that bothers you; it is your own. If you were really interested in health care for every one, it wouldn’t bother you where I got my health care.
I’m also eligible for health care at the VA Hospital. Would it bother you if I went there?
Think about it. Would I still be a hypocrite?
Oh,yeah. You want to really reach for the Maalox? I don’t pay taxes.
Frank: “If you were really interested in health care for every one, it wouldn’t bother you where I got my health care.”
Actually, Frank, it doesn’t bother me that you get your health insurance through the government. I believe that a single-payer healthcare system would be good for this country. So bully for you if Uncle Sam is footing your medical bills.
The reason that I called you a hypocrite is that I thought you were opposed to having socialized healthcare in the US. It was my understanding that you feel it’s a huge waste of tax money and isn’t really necessary in the first place (though you still haven’t backed up your claim about there only being 8 people in America that want health insurance but don’t have it because they can’t afford it.)
So I’m sorry if I mistook your position on this. I had no ideea that you support socialized healthcare for all Americans. I mean, the way you talk about it being “money for nothing” and “spending other people’s money,” I couldn’t help but get the impression that you opposed it.
“I’m also eligible for health care at the VA Hospital. Would it bother you if I went there?”
Not at all, Frank. In fact, I think our government should do more to make the VA Hospital system more efficient so our veterans get the care they deserve.
The only way it would make you a hypocrite is if you opposed socialized healthcare for everyone else. But I guess you don’t. My mistake.
I don’t get socialized medicine. And the Medicaid I get is available to anyone who is eligible.
Why you compare that to socialized medicine is beyond me.
It already exists, right? So how can I deny it to anyone?
The fact that it exists is part of the reason that I know that the 47 million who others claim don’t have a health care plan includes people that could get Medicaid, but don’t have it, because they don’t know how to get it.
You’re talking about something radically different. You know who abuses Medicaid? Providers.
Okay, Frank. I’m obviously an idiot. What’s the difference between Medicaid and socialized healthcare?
Medicaid is for people with low incomes, or people with extraordinary health expenses, with slightly higher incomes, who pay a “spend down” (a high co – pay) Like low wage earners, or HIV / AIDS patients on “cocktails”; many pregnancies are covered after the expectant mother is 5 months pregnant. It is not for everybody.
Also, it is partially paid for by the state, so that Medicaid is slightly more “generous” in NYS than in, say, Georgia.
It is automatically given to people on SSI; Medicare is given to the elderly and to people who have been on SSD for two years.
Finally, although more doctors accept Medicare than Medicaid, doctors may refuse both.
You’re not an idiot. It’s a government program, so it takes years in the system to get the hang of it.
Socialized medicine would be way more complicated, way more bureaucratic, and way more expensive.
Gee…
Was it something I said?
I don’t get socialized medicine. And the Medicaid I get is available to anyone who is eligible.
Why you compare that to socialized medicine is beyond me.
…Do you even know what “socialized” even means?
And I will call it “socialized medicine” the minute that you call public schools “socialized education”, public transportation “socialized transportation”, the police “socialized security”, and the army “socialized national defense”.
zython: Why don’t go play with s and beans?
Frank,
Sorry for the delay in my response. I don’t have internet at home right now, so i’m limited to work access.
Anyway, it sounds to me like so-called socialized healthcare is really just Medicaid expanded to cover everyone. Which was my original point of contention with your opposition to it. You’re on socialized healthcare, just a limited version. I say that because what we’re talking about with a single-payer system is taking tax dollars to pay for people’s healthcare.
Boing!
Isn’t that what Medicaid is? Taking tax dollars to pay for people’s healthcare?
So either I’m wrong about what a single-payer system is, or you need to get on the trolly and support expanding the Medicaid system that you use to cover all Americans.
I think your “either – or” is incorrect. Medicaid and Medicare are both limited coverage, because of political considerations (I mean “political” in its literal sense).
If there were less people they could give it to, they would. Do you think I just walked into an office and walked out with Medicaid? A team of doctors filled out a dozen – paged document, and I recertify my income every year. They’re just aching to get you to misfile a paper, so they can bounce you off the rolls.
I once was faced with choosing food for my family or paying a co-pay for medicine. I chose the food, and ended up in a $480 ambulance to get hundreds of dollars in emergency treatments.
I went to a clinic with possible asthma. I was hospitalized three times before they figured out how to deal with it.
That’s the great “single -payer system”. Do you really want to inflict that on everybody? When I say there shouldn’t be socialized medicine, I’m not being selfish, I’m doing everyone else a favor.
“For a guy with a “healthy skepticism of power”, he sure luxuriated in it.”
Bill Clinton believed that while government could do a lot of good, there were many things government could not do. And those weren’t just words. Clinton succeeded in cutting back, reforming, or ending a lot more useless programs than any Republican.
While I would love to support the Republicans, as of right now, the Democrats are the only ones to really show results cutting government. Well, one Democrat anyway.
Frank, I’m not saying that the Medicare/Medicaid system is perfect. I’d like to think that given the chance, we could come up with a system that works for everyone. Something about learning from one’s mistakes.
“I was hospitalized three times…” “That’s the great ’single -payer system’.”
I personally know someone who received Zyprexa as part of his treatment for depression. Now he has type-1 diabetes for the rest of his life. Internal documents show that the good people at Eli-Lilly have known for ten years that their wonder drug causes diabetes (or weight gain, or death) but ignored those findings in deference to the $6 Billion a year they make off the drug.
The drug companies push the drugs, the providers dish them out like candy, the insurance companies pay for them. The doctors get paid, the insurance companies get paid, Big Pharma gets paid, and the patients get screwed. There’s your great private insurance system.
The government may be a lumbering beast, but it’s not even close to the waste-o-matic that the insurance industry is.
ND take your argument and turn it around. How many thousands (tens of thousands?) of people are cured or made better because of those drugs?
How many drugs never see the light of day because of fear of a side effect or idiosyncratic reaction?
Luddites like you want everything to be risk free, oh, and done for free (at least as long as it isn’t YOU who is being asked to give away your time)
Stop paying big pharma, stop paying doctors….see what sort of health care system you end up with.
You should look into the current system a bit more closely. I get paid less than 50 cents on the dollar by GOOD insurance companies, it is much less than that when it comes to medicare. Medicare rates for physicians haven’t gone up in over 5 years, and all the insurance contracts are tied to those rates.
Socialized medicine is great…as long as you don’t get very sick. Fine with me….you want to treat doctors like they are rug merchants? Trying getting a hold of a rug merchant at three o’clock in the morning when you have a sick kid……
Frank, your examples are exactly why healthcare should be nationalized/socialized/whatever you want to call it. The entire matter of the fact is that people without insurance and people on state and federal healthcare programs are treated as second-class citizens, oftentimes given substandard care as compared to someone who has the creme de las creme of coverage. It’s immoral, expensive, and a load of shit to put it bluntly. There’s no reason why my doctor should charge a cash customer $80 for an office visit, the state $60 for the same visit, and my insurance $200, thus making it far more lucrative to not service cash customers and those covered by Medicare, Access, and the like. Under a socialized medical program if the nation is paying “x” for an office visit then there you go. I view it as the union version of healthcare bargaining (and I mean union in its original intent to protect a mass group of people from exploitation, extortion, etc. – not the current vision of union as “I should get $75 dollars an hour to stand by the side of the raod with four of my buddies while we watch one guy work for a couple hours” – this happens in PA – drive through and watch PennDOT sometime you’ll have plenty of time to do so since they block of five miles of road for a one mile project for days on end). John Kerry put it best during the presidential debate – a nation worth of people is a huge bargaining chip.
Why do I care if my neighbor has to cram fish antibiotics down her kid’s throat? Other than the danger there, and the fact that I have four children who had the same illness at the same time as this kid who got proper care because I have different insurance, and the fact that I’m a citizen of a great nation that as you pointed out is not Rwanda? Hell I can’t imagine why I’d be upset by that. Maybe because under different circumstances that could have been me. That could have been my kid.
What happens when something happens that she can’t manufacture an independent solution for? Then what?
It’s unacceptable.
LMM you are really a dumbass.
There aren’t two levels of care in this country…yet. Doctors care for people the same way regardless of the insurance they are getting….but that is rapidly going to change when it becomes a one payer system.
Your idiot neighbor gave her kids “fish antibiotics” because she chose to. If they really needed them, she would have purchased them.
Does your neighbor own their own house? Have a color tv? Cable? Internet service? Two cars?
Yea, and then they buy fish antibiotics for their kids and cry about the need for someone else to buy them their health care? Please….
If they are really poor, the state systems will cover their basic medical care. Show up at the er at the county hospital… they will get care.
You get a single payer system, and you better believe that the doctors are going to unionize. Then, like canada or england or germany…you will end up with a real two tiered system where the rich will pay for their access, and we will get around to the government cases when we can. Oh, and the trial lawyers who own the democratic party ain’t going to like it either….all malpractice awards go away for all intents and purposes too, can’t really sue the government easily you know!
Pedro: “How many thousands (tens of thousands?) of people are cured or made better because of those drugs?”
So you’re defending Eli Lilly? It’s okay that they pump out a drug that they know causes diabetes and death?
“How many drugs never see the light of day because of fear of a side effect or idiosyncratic reaction?”
Not enough, I’d guess. Seeing as every one of the hundred drug ads that air every hour provides a laundry list of possible side-effects, I’d have to say Big Pharma isn’t all that afraid of them.
“Luddites like you…
Yeah, Pedro, I’m a luddite. I don’t like the system where the drug companies work with lazy doctors to soak billions of dollars out of patients that may or may not need the drugs their pushing, so I must be a luddite.
“…want everything to be risk free…”
Where did I say risk free? How about ambush-free? Eli Lilly refused to warn doctors about the risks of Zyprexa. Even though they knew it could kill their patients. But yeah, I’m the one who’s out of line.
“…and done for free…”
Show me where anyone has ever said that doctors should work for free.
As for the rest of your blah blah blah, if you’re being so screwed by the current system, why wouldn’t you want to change it?
In what country and state do you live, Pedro, where there are not these two levels of care already? Wherever it is I’m telling you it isn’t where I live.
And no, my neighbors don’t have a pot to piss in and everyone in town knows it. They moved up here from the the South two years ago literally with a borrowed car. They don’t have a car of their own let alone two, they rent their home, and they don’t have cable. Interestingly, other than the healthcare they refuse all other governement assistance, though I’d wager they qualify for most of it and could definitely use it. They don’t like handouts “because that’s what I work for”. Unfortunately, neither the husband or wife are very well educated and I don’t think either one actually made it through high school so they end up in these cheesy minimum wage jobs with no future and little benefits. They don’t smoke, do drugs, drink, or any of that. They are honest, good, clean, undereducated God-fearing poor people.
The state system here sucks, genius, which is what I was trying to explain. She has taken her kid to the hospital with the damned card – I’ve driven her – and they evaluate and she sits there for six hours so they can tell her that it’s “probably viral” and to see her regular doctor because the kid isn’t “sick enough” for immediate attention (which is the new thing around here – basically it boils down to I don’t want to be responsible for this so just go see your regular doctor tomorrow). When she has called around to get a regular doctor most won’t take it, and the few who do take the card are so over-booked they can see the kid “just for once next week”, by which time the kid would have needed a morgue. In the meantime my kids get sick, I call my doctor, he says bring ‘em over and there you go. It’s not viral. It’s a nasty form of strep that nearly hospitalized my 5-year-old, and the little girl across the street actually spiked a fever so high and so fast from it that she siezed. Really nasty stuff – glad it’s gone. He only takes “some patients” with the card because he makes more off people like me. It’s just morally wrong.
By the way Pedro – you can’t get an antibiotic without a prescription. Not in this country. Not legally. Not unless they dissolve in a fish tank, apparently. So tell me again – Who’s a dumbass? ‘Cause from where I’m sitting it looks like you, and you’re a pretentious one at that.