Once again George H.W. Bush is bitching about the press being mean towards his son. Please, shut up. It’s this kind of wimpiness that led you to one measly term in office. Here’s a news flash:
YOUR SON IS A CRAPPY PRESIDENT. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THINK HE HAS DONE A CRAP JOB. IT’S NOT BECAUSE THE NEWS MEDIA HASN’T GONE DOWN ON THEIR KNEES FOR HIM, BUT BECAUSE YOUR SON SENT OVER 3,000 AMERICANS OFF TO DIE FOR NO REASON AND REFUSES TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT MORE THAN SEND OFF MORE OF THEM TO DIE. AGAIN, YOUR SON IS A CRAPPY PRESIDENT.
GROW A PAIR.
Bravo. well said.
It’s not the people but his son and his son’s incompetence.
It must feel shitty knowing that your demon seed spawned the Anti Christ himself.
F*** Bush he is in denial. He knows his son is garbage needs a patsy to lay it on. The media is easy pickings.
Priceless
OW tells a decorated combat pilot to “grow a pair”.
Meanwhile, OW sits behind his keyboard working for an organization that…wait for it…critisizes the media.
Oh, the sweet irony…
Classic OW
JWG grow a pair!
Daddy Bush, you hate it when everybody criticizes your spoiled, whiny, self-indulgent slacker son. What makes you different than that supermarket mommy who gets upset at the store clerk for telling the manager about her bratty kids swiping candy?
Damn, Oliver, you are Iraq-obsessed. Granted, that is a big part of his current unpopularity, but there are so many reasons why Bush is a crappy president. His negative environmental record, New Orleans, selling the US to corporation donors and friends, bad relations with other countries like Russia, China, North Korea, other middle eastern countries and more… the list just goes on.
Hey while your at it, here is something else to complain about. 4 more servicemen dead….
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070127/ap_on_re_us/helicopter_crash
U.S. Out of San Diego! Stop the senseless killing! George Bush uselessly kills american naval aviators!
I TOLD you Pelosi should take all those dangerous aircraft away from our military, but YOU wouldn’t listen….
Pedro, shut the fuck up. JWG, after 2004 no-one on the right can use the “decorated war hero” thing, ever again.
Wow, four dead soldiers. That’s really hilarious, Pedro. Got any stories about raping children or something to follow that up?
Brilliant reparte kids, are you starting to see how stupid you and your ilk sound?
Actually our main concern is the stupidity of you and your ilk. Specifically you.
Nice. GHWB is a war hero who served his country for 60 years. You are a punk with no real world experience and lack common decency and respect. Seriously, step back and look at yourself and what you posted. Shame upon you.
Being a war hero doesn’t excuse Bush from being an ass.
Again with the war hero thing! You spent that nickel in ought-four, or don’t you care that you look like a bunch of mewling hypocrites?
Even IF I stipulate that GWB is an ass. That “fact” does not excuse your indecency toward GHWB. I often ask why I read your blog. It started as a legitimate interest in understanding you people (Bush Derangement Syndrome – Michael Moore America Haters). But now it is like a car wreck that I cannot look away from.
Why can’t you advance your thoughts and positions without name calling and disrespect. Yes I know there are loons and name callers on the Right as well but raise the bar, climb out of the gutter and show some class and respect.
You seem to be a bright young man and your passion is evident but you cheapen yourself with posts like this.
I sincerely hope you will reflect on this and elevate your blog to be something more adult and sophisticated. There are enough loons out there – be better than that.
Before we get too far off track , I for one do not remember any main stream media that has shown personal aniimosity towards W. He is treated with kid gloves. If we had a press organization that had a backbone and asked a decent followup question then maybe the premise of GHWB’s statement might have some validity, but I have never ever seen a press person treat W rudely or offensively. What the heck was GHWB watching, Pelosi’s press coverage? Lastly, if GHWB has sixty years service to the U.S. the writer must be counting the years between 1945 (military discharge) and 1964 (first run for Congress) when the young GHWB was a reputed CIA undercover asset. That’s the only way you get any where near sixty years service from that guy who retired in 1992 Even if you count those years, you are a shy of 60, more like 30 if you ask me.
No-one had to assassinate 2 of his his sons to destroy the family legacy.
He should consider himself lucky if all anyone does is say bad things.
BlueFLA;
Keith Olberman notwithstanding.
Simple question – was Ollie’s post rude and unnecessarily disrespectful to GHWB ? His point is worthy of debate – i.e. does GHWB have a point or not ? Worthy of discussion – but why so immature and rude – capitals, bold etc.
Ollie, I meant what I said – you’re a bright guy with a POV but I sincerely wish you’d display more maturity and raise the bar.
Elevate…..
I love that picture.
“What does a yellow light mean?”
sorry, linky no worky.
On the plus side, I guess, it doesn’t sound like GHWB listens to Rush or watch Fox, or maybe he just doesn’t notice when Rush call Obama a “half-rican American.”
Certainly no animosity there, huh?
“Elevate…..
Posted by: John”
swearing (and/or all-caps) gives the listener the right to discount an opinion – and that is often intentional. As is pedantry, and to the same end.
I would take Olivers chosen formatting as a sure sign that he isn’t concerned with your* opinion on the matter.
*or mine
It’s Oliver’s way of yelling at the teevee.
or God
which, in context, is far far funnier than i meant it to be
“Worthy of discussion – but why so immature and rude – capitals, bold etc.”
But John, did you not read the article? Senior Bush:
Things his mother wouldn’t necessarily approve of? Oh the maturity.
For krissakes, Bush, Sr. is swearing at his TV set and whining in public because of what, the media has been reporting his son’s 33 percent approval rating? How elevated of him.
Oh, and BTW, grow a pair of what?
He should be saying things his mother wouldn’t approve of to his son.
Of course, the fact that he’d rather hang out with Bill Clinton probably speaks volumes.
No, it was necessarily disrespectful to George Sr.
Jesus, just because he’s George fucking Bush doesn’t make him immune to being called on his flaws and mistakes.
He’s a decorated war hero, woo-hoo. He also participated in Irangate and the 1980 October Surprise. And that was before that miserable four years called his presidency.
The great thing about freedom of speech is we can call former Presidents dicks if we want to. Never stopped you from insulting one specific former President. Bush was worse in less time.
Bollocks, Frame. A pair of bollocks.
Thanks for making my point, y’all. Let’s stop throwing the toys around in tantrum – it’s nap time.
What’s a “bollocks”? It sounds like something my mother might not necessarily approve of.
“Thanks for making my point, y’all.”
Yes, John, because it’s so, so necessary that we all give George Bush, Sr.’s potty mouthed complaints about the media serious and mature consideration.
What a doofus.
John – one question: Why? Why bother? What, in the last 6 years, no, 12 years of our national discourse would lead you to belive that anyone with a (D) after their name would be more respected or paid attention to if they acted with the nebulous and ill-defined decorum you implore them to have?
Lots of people, in the runup to the Iraq war, explained in very clear, rational, reality-based terms why this was a bad idea and why the Bush plan for carrying it out was miserably formed. People with decades of foreign policy and military experience. Yet these people were jeered at and derided by people like you as “Saddam sympathizers” and “terrorist enablers” every iota as much as the most rumpled looking, patchouli-smelling, giant puppet carrying protester.
So please excuse us if we tell you and all the other concern trolls to blow it out your ass.
tantrum?
You’re the one trying to take the ball home.
nighty-night
Id widdle Johnny upsetty-wetty dat da mean libruls aren’t being nicey-wicey to Georgy Herbert Walker Bushy? Oh! Tsk tsk. Don’t cry Johnny, two wet cheeks awe enough.
Doofus ?
That’s Hipster Doofus, sir !!!
I am not W’s biggest fan and would love to have a legitimate mature D to evaluate but can’t seem to find any. We’ve both (parties) got crazy uncles in the attic, but the D Uncle seems to have come downstairs and grabbed the microphone (see Buchanan ‘96)
“…..rumpled looking, patchouli-smelling, giant puppet carrying protester.”
Nice line. Kudos.
Buchanan is a democrat?
the woods are full of legit mature D’s, John, you just can’t see them for the trees.
John, you wouldn’t recognize a true patriot if he kissed you in the ass, so why should we try?
Debate on your terms means that you -specifically- do not have to admit Bush has screwed this up so badly it’s a wonder “war” is spelled properly.
and sadly, John, you have to admit that first.
As long as we’re in a war of aggression, and you apologise for it or it’s architects, then I’ve got just one finger for you.
and you might just have to accept that.
Cuz, you know, when Ann Coulter called Clinton a rapist, that was oh so civil.
And gay. and Al Gore’s gay too.
Wait, a gay rapist? That would require some serious anger.
Bollocks. You know. Testicles.
“That’s Hipster Doofus, sir !!!”
Because their’s nothing hipper than lecturing people on their lack of maturity.
You’re just too cool for school, man.
it’s an English thing.
Probably my favorite swear word.
their’s?
Now dyslexia, that’s fucking hip!
Oh and I do know what bullocks are. Made you say it! Nah Nah!
Where are these serious R’s Johnny was talking about? the radio spokesmen like Rush Limbaugh? The TV personalities like the entire FOX news channel and their O’Reillys and Hannitys? The rubberstamp congressional Rs like Mark Foley and his coverup friends? The administration like FU Cheney and GW Cronyism Bush? The 2008 candidates like Serial Adulterer Guilliani and Say Anything LLoyd Dobler McCain. Looking for the legitimate and mature in that bunch. I would suggest if John is going to bother taking his thumb out of his mouth to say something he strap his head to a post or something so it doesn’t drift up his ass.
Did you block me
Why would John Kerry call us (U.S.) “an international pariah”. But he supports the troops.
Fonda joins Sheehan, Sarandon, and Robbins today. Truly a proud moment for these “Patriots”.
a) Kerry isn’t talking about the troops. He’s talking about our international reputation.
b)None of those people hold public office.
We’ll say it again.
Coulter, Limbaugh, Hannity, O’reilly
John don’t bother arguing with the america laster’s here about anything related to the war/Bush. As I said earlier, they are driven by pure greed for the WH. They simply cannot tolerate america doing well, for if it does, they know they are lost in the next election.
Pedro, I call bullshit. You, sir, are projecting. Again.
Truly a proud moment for these “Patriots”.
How maturely those quotation marks shine.
Because it is oh so hip, serious and mature to believe that being a patriot means never, ever criticizing your government’s policies.
“They simply cannot tolerate america doing well …”
Now if only conservatives were actually capable of doing well, instead of dragging us into the mire of their own incompetence, you guys might have something.
First John labels Bush critics as having “Bush Derangement Syndrome” and as “Michael Moore America Haters”.
Then immediately follows it up with this statement:
“Why can’t you advance your thoughts and positions without name calling and disrespect. Yes I know there are loons and name callers on the Right as well but raise the bar, climb out of the gutter and show some class and respect.”
Apparently “irony” is not solely a leftist afliction.
Barbara needs to bitch slap her old man, and her sissy kid too. Peewee Herman would look tough with the military props GWB uses as a regular symbol of his machismo. There isn’t a quarter of a set between them. Maybe his defenders should read up on the heroism of Bush’s old man as a pilot. He was a screw up then too, just like McCain.
You didn’t make me say it, I’d said it once already in the very thing to which you were responding.
Arguing like Dugger there.
You’re right Pedro. Just having a little fun baiting the kids. I remember in High School taking a Conservative / Liberal test and I scored 100% Liberal. I was a naive Alan Alda M*A*S*H watching Democrat.
But eventually you either turn 30 or make 30k and you slowly grow up.
As per chum, from John up the thread:
“You are a punk with no real world experience and lack common decency and respect.”
As Ron Burgandy might say, “Classy.”
We can’t tolerate America doing well?
Last time it was happening, we were perfectly okay with it. Eight or so years ago.
Grow a pair ? Take a bath !!!
Unless John is Dugger or someone using their real name, let’s take a moment to welcome the new wingnut.
Moment taken.
“You didn’t make me say it …”
I’m rubber and you’re glue …
(Dig the MACHURITY!!!)
“But eventually you either turn 30 or make 30k and you slowly grow up.”
Oh, ya! The hippness continues apace.
After MASH did you plug into endless hours of Huey Lewis and News?
It is sooooo hip to be square …
I used to be a renegade,
I used to fool around
But I couldnt take the punishment, and had to settle down
Now Im playing it real straight, and yes I cut my hair
You might think Im crazy, but I dont even care
Because I can tell whats going on
Its hip to be square…
John.
Kerry said all that because I have asked him to.
He represents me in Congress.
Welcome to America.
Well I turn 30 in December and have made over 30k and yet I’m still smart enough to be a Democrat. And not the sort of Democrat you all are used to in the press, that falls over him or herself agreeing with the GOP. And that is what drives you all nuts.
And. I. Love. It.
John, I’m 33, make well over 30K… well over… and I am liberal to the core.
I am a knee-jerk liberal, you are a knee-pad conservative.
I’d say we’re even, but you’re doing all the complaining today. Fine with me.
“… you are a knee-pad conservative.”
LOL
How…*chuckle*…mature..*sort*… of you. *Giggle*
Um, that’s *snort*
I’m 23 and have never even owned £1000. Which is probably why I’m a Bevanite socialist.
“knee pad conservative™” is not my original joke, but please do pass it on.
Large lettering is actually easier on the eyes, I dont see the big deal.
Exactly nimrod, exactly.
Take from others who have worked harder and longer than you have….it explains a lot about your commentary.
Ah, yes, the imbecile’s definition of socialism. Eat dick, Pylon Pete.
Take from others who have worked harder and longer than you have
——————————–
Thats the assumption asshat. Real life isnt that simple. Look at Paris Hilton and Donald Trump. Rich by birthright. Look at Bush himself. Then look at people who are poor because they are handicapped.
Republicans are black and white thinking pieces of human s***. Learn to feel you unhuman bastards.
“”But eventually you either turn 30 or make 30k and you slowly grow up.”
I have a (Republican – so this isn’t a political observation per se) friend who came up with a great term: “$30,000-a-year millionaire”. That term is meant to describe a twerp who thinks he is really rich and knowing and successful, when in fact he’s just an average middle-management, middle-class guy who doesn’t know much about or have interactions with people with real money and influence. But he has an expensive cell phone and a decent house in the suburbs so the thinks he’s a captain of industry. I suspect our friend John here is a $30,000-a-year millionaire.
Well, thank goodness there are plenty of smart liberals like yourself to remind the middle-class that they really shouldn’t be so happy since there are people more wealthy than they!
Remember your place, middle-class peon!
Er, JWG, as I pointed out in the first line of my posting, the $30,000-a-year millionaire line isn’t a political one per se, particularly given that a conservative Republican friend came up with it. And the line has nothing to do with whether or not a person should be sad about the fact there are people more wealthy than that person. I’d explain the term further, but I suspect basic reading comprehension skills are beyond your capabilities, so there’s no point in wasting my time on that.
But, I’ll give you one thing, you got the smart liberal part right. Congratulations on that one, big guy.
yea Nimrod, cause socialism has been such a big sucess around the world.
Let’s see, what part of “from each according to his ability, to each according to his need” didn’t I get? Nimrod is a 23 y/o with barely a farthing to his name, Ollie is an undereducated cubicle drone, and frameone rights for a free newspaper and was bounced from a graduate school….like I said, your arguments make a lot more sense in THAT light….
Well pedro, socialized roads and rural electrification seem to work pretty well in the USA. Or do you disagree with those programs?
sorry sundown…just because something is done by the government doesn’t make it socialism…back to poly sci 101 for you….
And, assuming you’re not just pretending to be a doctor, you actually charge people for being unwell.
That’s an oversimplification, but you know, fire with fire.
The main barrier to Socialism working for everyone is the inescapable fact that people are dicks.
So you don’t believe that a healthcare system based on healthcare and not money is “socialized medicine” then?
Good.
And, assuming you’re not just pretending to be a doctor, you actually charge people for being unwell.
——————————–
Doctor or not he still sounds like an elitist snob to me. Funny how elitist snob maps to Republican every time. I personally dont care if someone works at Burger King or Goldman Sachs, there is no monopoly on the truth.
Pedro also seems to think that
Iraq is ok since there have not been any attacks on U.S. soil but conveniently neglects to mention that we have lost more troops already than 9/11 and that EVEN THE PEOPLE OF NYC who actually WERE attacked hate our position in Iraq and hate “Dubya” as the rednecks in this country gleefully call him. Also pedro conveniently forgets that the KIA on our side were killed mostly by Iraqis themselves and not any organized terrorist or state sponsored group.
There is a reson that the whole world is opposed to Bush. A little bird told me it is because he is a fucking idiot and a liar. Why, why on gods green earth do the republicans continue to support a man with the track record of a loser? Success breeds success and shit breeds shit. For the love of god wake up.
Those that willfully trade their rights for security deserve neither. Pedro deserves to live in a two bit shit hole ran by two-bit dictator. Lets all hope that he doesnt get his way and that Bush actually transfers power to the democrat who beats his gutted party in 2008.
So pedro, what constitues socialism then? If I would venture a guess, it’d be those government programs that you don’t like.
I think John is Frank’s new identity. He’s old, bitter, crusty and delusional. Nice try Frank.
Pidge, I don’t think so. Frank’s never made over 30k a year.
“…and frameone rights for a free newspaper and was bounced from a graduate school…”
Bounced from a graduate school? You know, pedro, whenever you want to step out from behind your anonymity, feel free. Until then, you’re just another shit heel, concervative coward.
Oops, there go my manners, again.
Hipster Doofus John is going to be so sore with me!
sorry Frame, so you are still matriculated at film school at UCLA then?
Cause as usual, there is no denial that I am right, just more personal attacks, so maybe we can get the facts straight for me…
I don’t charge people a dime for being unwell. I charge them for helping to get better. I know horrible of me eh? You leftist twits just think I should spend 12 years post baccalareate training, often more than 100 hours a week, and then just start answering my phone in the middle of the night for free…Tell you what, you fix the health insurance so I don’t have to hire 5 people just to get my bills paid. While you are at it, see if you can get your buddy John Edwards to stop suing us everytime someone has a bad outcome (have you all seen the new house he bought with his ill-gotten gains…biggest one in his county! Now that is a man of the people!), then we can talk about my fees…
In the meantime, read Atlas Shrugged for what the world will look like when you start trying to force people to give you want you want without paying for it..
um, pedro. Socialism has been successful.
Statue of liberty? given to us by the then and currently socialst gov’t f france.
Lenninst Communishm, on the other hand – has failed.
the difference between the two?
about as large as the difference between the ‘Democracy’ you think you live in, and the ‘Republic’ you do live in.
Words are not totally irrelevant, but those who intentionally misuse them are entirely irrelevant.
Pedro – you men to say the future will be overly wordy and paranoid?
all your appreciation for A.S. does is fix your age for me at 22. No one over 22 takes that book seriously. Ayn Rands philosophies shows a sociopathinc lack of empathy for your fellow man, and a self-centered focus on the individual…
and at that – the individual who is usually less talented than they imagine.
Who is John Galt? John Galt is everything you want to believe about other people to make you feel better.
John Galt is fiction.
The medical billing system, yep, needs fixing. Go read Doctor Howard Deans plants for that… from 2001. Just saying someone else does have the ideas, does see the problems..
and you;d throw them under the bus anyhow, simply becuase you are John Galt, and because someone is in your way.
I’m no socialist, but how did that plan to privatize social security work out?
So·cial·ism [soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
Sorry, but just because you name yourself a socialist party doesn’t actually make you a socialist.
Do you mean to tell me that France wants the government to take over the Chanel House. Or every McDonalds?
Sacre bleu! Tu as tort……
Unfortunately ollie we won’t know how the ss system works out until it implodes in about 20 years, sooner if the democrat party decides to buy more votes with empty promises.
Tell you what, since you are a true believer, don’t bother putting anything away in 401K (Media Matters does give you a 401K right?Please tell me they do…)
my dad can beat up your dad
pedro.
In capitalist USA, power plants and hospitals (and a bunch of other infrastructure) are operated for profit.
in liberal free market Britain or Canada they are less so
In socialist France, Belgium, Sweden they are even less so.
In communist china, vietnam, and cuba they are not so.
the USA and China are opposite ends of the spectrum.
We’re just advocating moderation in matters where people might die in the name of profit.
or to be blunt, nobody needs a third Bentley, house, or private jet -
stop assuming I fault anyone the first two.
Yes, it bloody well is. Basic healthcare is a right, not a fucking privilege.
That’s been obvious since the 1930s.
a) Screw Atlas Shrugged. Even the ultimate Randian libertarians, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, think it sucks. Click on my name for an epilogue.
b) As long as you’re going to deliberately sum up socialism wrongly there’s no discussion here.
Link didn’t work. Here.
http://angryflower.com/atlass.gif
I guess farmers should be giving away food for free as well. Isn’t basic nutrition a right?
Those greedy farmers are bastards!
that just about sums it up jwg.
And as we know, americans are flocking to britain and canada for their medical care. More importantly, americans are flocking to britain and canada to TRAIN to become doctors, because of their advanced system.
Oh, wait…thats not actually true. People in those systems get seen in a few hours wait for a common cold and get free (?) decongestants, but if you need a hip, or cardiac surgery…well, stand in line. Unless you are too old of course, in which case, it’s the ice-flow for you .
Hatter I actuallly agree that the insurance system should not be a for-profit enterprise. Once they became more beholden to the stock-holders than to the patients, things kind of went off their axis…You see, I am not a true libertarian, and I think you need to help provide for those that cannot always provide for themselves. And I guarantee I have provided more help for the poor and indigent than anyone posting here…..
It sums YOU up, because you are fucking idiots.
Pedro, you have no idea what you’re talking about, but that’s not a new thing.
Well…..it didn’t take ol’e Nimmer long to get to the “but you’re a big dummy-head!” argument on this one did it JWG?
Of course he didn’t manage to develop any sort of rebuttal, but the leftist magical thinking conquers all!
LOL
Let’s see how much DrPedo likes the free enterprise capitalist health care system in America. Malpractice tort reform.
Begging for the government to regulate that aren’t you.
Why should I rebut something that makes no sense whatsoever? You’re idiots, that’s all there is to it. Observation.
yea nimmer, coming from a broke
23 y/o, that really cuts deep….I’m not sure how I am going to go on….
Did you really think I was aiming for that kind of reaction? Then you’re an even bigger idiot.
“Cause as usual, there is no denial that I am right, just more personal attacks, so maybe we can get the facts straight for me…”
Gee, pedro, you make a claim based on absolutely nothing, I call you an idiot for it and now you’re demanding I correct you?
What should one expect from an anonymous tool you claims to be a doctor when everyone knows he isn’t.
And for the record I advanced to candidacy in Oct 2005 and am finishing my diss as we speak. Got a problem with that? I’ll be delivering a paper at SCMS based on some of my research in March.
Now would you like to link to all the peer reviewed articles you’ve published or, gee, even give us yor real name?
Of course you won’t. Why? Because you’re a shit heel conservative coward.
“I guess farmers should be giving away food for free as well.”
Yes, of course, because doctors don’t get paid in Canada. Jesus what idiots you people are.
And there’s no such thing as farm subsidies that protect farmers from the downside of the free market.
well congrats then Paul….I guess we’ll be able to call you “Dr Frameone” soon…
Truly out of genuine curiousity, what sort of research do you do for a film doctorate?
Just check out the March edition of Jack & Jill magazine for DrPedo’s peer reviewed articles.
You obviously can’t read what Nimrod wrote. He criticised the idea of a doctor getting paid to make someone better. But I’m the idiot? Riiiight. Whatever makes you happy.
I’d call you a lying bastard, but the fact that you actually typed:
suggests that you’re just stupid.
I criticised the idea of patients being charged for basic treatment, not doctors being paid for doing their jobs.
Just keep talking nimmer, the breadth and depth of your ignorance is simply stunning….
(I don’t want medical care to COST anything, but I am happy to PAY the doctor? Such is logic in the leftist world-view…)
Jesus Christ, get a fucking brain, Pedro. At least learn to read.
Is it just that you can’t argue against the reasonability of the NHS system, but you have to because it’s TEH DIRTY LEFTY LIBRULS?
OMG…you write this sentence and call ME stupid?
Yes, yes I do.
All this outrage over Ollie taking DWH* Poppy to the woodshed?
Where were the likes of Peedro when DWH John Kerry was being roasted?
(*decorated war hero)
“You obviously can’t read what Nimrod wrote.”
I read what he wrote. Then I read your response. I stand by my observation. You’re an idiot.
“Truly out of genuine curiousity, what sort of research do you do for a film doctorate?”
Why don’t you tell us what kind of research you have to do to play a doctor on blog comment threads.
And you believe in unicorns and magical pixies if you find Nimrod’s statement anything close to logical. So be it.
“Basic healthcare is a right, not a fucking privilege…I criticised the idea of patients being charged for basic treatment, not doctors being paid for doing their jobs.”
Yeah, that’s Dali-level surrealism right there.
And where in the hell is the money for the doctors coming from? Are the magic pixies creating money out of unicorn shit?
Complete idiot.
Just can’t cope with the idea of anyone doing anything without profit being the #1 concern.
Hey man, those new Mercedes don’t pay for themselves, you know.
Who said anything about it being #1?
You claim you want doctors to be paid without patients paying anything.
How is that possible?
Call me an idiot all you want. It doesn’t change the economic reality of life.
Have you never heard of the NHS, dumbass?
I’m stepping around the T word because you’ll bludgeon me with it, but I guess it’s inevitable anyway.
So if we pay taxes to support health care, then it’s not really free, is it? Patients ARE paying for health care.
Then we come back to…why don’t we socialize nutrition? Shoes? Housing?
If health care is a right, why not food, clothing, and shelter?
Why do I have to pay for these things?
Then to follow JWG lets look at a system that did just that…the USSR…
NO food, NO clothing, substandard shelter. Medical care that was less than what a pet would get in the US…
Yea, but NIMROD could FEEL good about it.
Healthcare is a right….what a wanker…
“Then we come back to…why don’t we socialize nutrition? Shoes? Housing?”
Gee and if private medicine is so great, why don’t we priviatize police, fire, education and roads?
Oh ya, because you’re a total idiot.
There are many privatized examples of all of these services. Why do people use these privatized examples? Because they work better.
Does that mean we should completely privatize them? No. Of course, the last time I checked, health care was not completely privatized either. However, Nimrod claims it is immoral for patients to have to pay anything for health care (ignoring the fact that people will still have to pay for health care through taxation).
But why would health care be considered a universal “right” while food, clothing, and shelter are not?
The answer is that if one of them is considered a right then all will be considered a right.
Furthermore, do I have a “right” to an organ replacement? How about knee surgery? Is that a right? Do I have a right to “free” allergy medicine?
“Because they work better.”
And there are no examples of nationally funded health care that work better than our system? There are indeed.
Listen, you don’t have to call it a right since that bugs the fuck out of you for some stupid reason but making health care available to everyone, regardless of their ability to pay, is a good thing for society. You know what society is, right? That thing were all in together?
That’s why we provide education to people regardless of their ability to pay. Why not health care?
I mean, JWG, you do have a right to live, don’t you?
Since I made it out of my mother’s womb, and I haven’t murdered anyone, yes, I have a right to live according to this nations laws.
That wasn’t Nimrod’s argument.
But since it’s yours, I’ll ask again. How much health care do we guarantee be made available to everyone? Do we limit it according to procedure? Do we limit according to cost? Which government employee gets to make the decision about who gets what treatment?
“How much health care do we guarantee be made available to everyone?”
Do you want to argue policy details or do you want set some basic principles which those policies should reflect?
I say we start with everyone should have access to basic health care regardless of ability to pay.
And please tell me you’re joking about government employees deciding who gets what treatments. Right now we have a system in which my access to specialists and advanced treatments is determined by profit-motivated accountants.
You’re attacking a feature of a hypothetical plan that doesn’t even exist while totally ignoring that the same procedure exists in the system you hold out as your shining example of how everything should be done.
Nimrod’s argument was exactly mine: that people should have access to care regardless of their ability to pay across the board. He just worded it differently.
And I am paying for the ability for me to get whatever medical procedure I need. You want me to also pay for a hip replacement or cancer treatment for someone else who’s not paying a cent. At what point does it become OK to deny the “right” for a person to receive health care because they can’t pay?
Nimrod argued that it was “horrible” to charge people for health care. he also said:
He has twice called for “free” health care for all and claimed doctors would still get paid. That’s not what you are arguing.
First of all, I am arguing that people who can’t afford to pay for healthcare, whether through taxes or direct payments, should still be entitled to quality, basic care whenever they need it. Do I think everyone should get “free” healthcare? Obviously that would be impossible.
And JWG, if you can afford to pay out of pocket for a major medical procedure that your health care plan has rejected for cost effectiveness, bully for you. Not everyone can afford the upwards of $400,000 that a heart transplant costs.
What your saying, however, is that some people in need of a heart transplant should not get one based solely on their ability to pay. How awesome of you.
“At what point does it become OK to deny the ‘right’ for a person to receive health care because they can’t pay?”
To put it directly, the only morally acceptable answer to this question is that ability to pay should never be a criteria for eligibility for medical procedures.
Remember, my friend, we are all in this society-thing together.
I have always found it simply astonishing when conservatives push “I got mine” as the Golden Rule. Have you no shame?
So it must be a “right”. Everyone must be eligible for every medical procedure.
Why only medical care? Why isn’t everyone morally entitled to the best food every day?
And it’s not “I got mine” — it’s “I won’t force you to pay my way in life.” That’s what government does — it takes money from people by force. People spend their own money much more wisely than they spend other people’s money.
“Why isn’t everyone morally entitled to the best food every day?”
Why do you keep enaging in this kind of falacious argument?
It is certainly a great quality to make one’s own way in life and to be self-sufficient along the way. But let’s not forget, when you join an HMO you are not, in fact, relying entirely on yourself for your health care. You are, instead, joining a pool of shared risk that makes it possible for you to afford medical care. If you were truly supporting yourself you would be paying full price everytime you went to the doctor for a check up, for every prescription for every medical procedure, minor or major.
So once again, your free market/self-reliance rhetoric is just more bullshit designed to make you feel morally superior.
At the same time, your ability to pay your own way in life is a very different thing from accepting a social responsibility for the well-being of your fellow citizens who are worse off than you. Self-sufficiency does not, in and of itself, negate your moral responsibility to your fellow man does it?
Then again, you obviously are reluctant to simply admit to the ultimate the consequences of your rhetoric which is that some people should be denied life saving care simply because they can’t afford it.
I think I know why you won’t admit it. Because you know it’s deeply immoral.
“And it’s not ‘I got mine’ — it’s ‘I won’t force you to pay my way in life.’”
More directly, this is a total dodge because what you wrote was:
I am paying for the ability for me to get whatever medical procedure I need. You want me to also pay for a hip replacement or cancer treatment for someone else who’s not paying a cent. At what point does it become OK to deny the “right” for a person to receive health care because they can’t pay?
That’s I got mine, so screw you. No two ways about it.
Let me just ask you, JWG, straight out: Should people be denied life saving medical treatments solely because they can’t afford it? Yes or no.
Oh and JWG, lest you think I was dodging your question, I believe that every American has a right to food, shelter and an education regardless of their ability to pay.
Do they have a right to eat filet mignon in mansions whilebeing granting admission to HArvard? No. Your suggestion that I’m arguing for the right to the “best food everyday” is just more bullshit right wing stupidity.
No. I would argue for baseline nutrition and shetler just I am arguing for baseline medical care, which in my mind, includes life savign procedures or medications, as I am taking, you know, living the most baseline of baselines there is.
AHA BUT WE IS PAYING TEH TAXES SO IT’S NOT REALLY FREE AH HA I WIN BLAGAUGUAGHALGHALGHAL
Heard it, it was stupid then as well.
No, healthcare under the NHS system isn’t 100% “free”, but it’s “free at the point of delivery”, which is what really matters, stupid.
I would like to thank Frame for covering for me while Buzby was fucking my ADSL modem in the ass. There’s another thing that needs to be renationalised – the public phone lines.
What, you’re the only person in the country who pays taxes? Of course he’s paying as well, under our system anyway.
Pedro: “ANY LEFT-WING THINKING AT ALL = SOVIET UNION HUAGLAGHAL”
You really think that even remotely resembles a good argument?
I wonder if the conservative commentators, on this date Nov. 18 2007, still feel the same way about their commander in chief. I don’t know a conservative in my city now who supports him in any real way other than a respect for empty homilies tied to his POTUS position and an equally lame support for the soldiers that does not extend to thinking about and criticizing the highly ambiguous and specious policy that sent them to the Middle East. Could it be that the deluded are finally coming around? This man stole two elections. My god, all the shit this evil bastard and his pappy have done! Sayonara, MF.