Death Penalty Silliness
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Florida is halting death penalties because one guy supposedly suffered? Certainly not as much as multiple victims and their families did as they waited 27 years for him to be executed. If they were using the chair instead of lethal injection the issue would be less muddy.
And California is getting into the act too, even though the Supreme Court has already said states have the right to choose execution.
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© 2000-2011 Oliver Willis
Hey Pull-The-Switch-McGee,
Your confidence in the justice system is adorable!
Right, because Florida has never had any problems with the electric chair.
Oh, wait.
Dugger’s easy remedy for those worried about electric chair or other death penalty malfunctions:
DON’T MURDER ANY ONE AND YOU WON’T GET SENT THERE!!!
Thank you. Thank you. Here all week.
Yes, Sparky sparked in the act of executing heinous murderers. This is supposed to be a problem?
I have a better idea: Why not do to the guilty party exactly what he did to his victims? EXACTLY…
If he shot them and left them dying in their own blood…
If he tortured them…
If he raped them…
Then we don’t have to worry about it working. It worked when he did it!
Damn. Just damn.
(Oliver- interesting topics I’ve been missing here over the last couple of days. I think I’m just going to sit these out for a few.)
fd,
You like rape?
Sick bastard. Go to the underworld.
Yes, state murder is beautiful! And if somebody kills two people, let’s kill him twice! Better yet, let’s kill his friend or mother too. Yes, the death penalty is such a socially useful device in the civilized world. I suppose it should be no surprise that only in the former Confederacy is the death penalty used on a wide basis. Why do you think that is, Oliver?
Except its used in Maryland, California, etc. If you can think of a better method for removing murderers from the world, lemme know. Should we coddle Timothy McVeigh, etc.?
I have no problem with the death penalty in principle, but I have a problem with its application. I don’t have enough trust in the justice system to accept a permanent punishment like that.
That said, there are some cases that are clear.
Life in prison without parole? States that use it have no worse murder rates than those that use the death penalty.
Timothy McVeigh was going to blow up the Murrah Building, but remembered that there was a federal death penalty and reconsidered. Now he’s living in a trailer in Fresno.
Oliver, you are totally one hundred percent wrong on this issue.
“From this day forward, I no longer shall tinker with the machinery of death. For more than twenty years I have endeavored—indeed, I have struggled…”
Harry Blackmun, Callins v Collins
In actual fact, my view on the death penalty comes down to this:
Con: The murdered person is dead; the murderer is alive. Why kill him / her, too?
Pro: Law and government depend on consensus and majority. Most people are comfortable with the death penalty, and see it as appropriate.
I personally like the “con” position, but I have to side with the people.
The whole point of “rights” is to protect the minority. If a mob in some southern town in the 1930s decided to lynch some poor black guy for flirting with a white woman, does that mean it’s right if the community gives approval? Emmitt Till’s murderers got off; the “people” had no problem with his actions.
Oliver, life without parole means removing them from “this” world. The world inside a maximum security prison is nothing like “this” world.
And pay for them to live while their victims didn’t get any such thing given to them? The idea that because the Emmitt Till murder happened we must allow Timothy McVeigh to live is ridiculous.
And pay for them to live while their victims didn’t get any such thing given to them?
Well actually the application of the death penalty (including court reviews, etc.) is more expensive than keeping someone in prison for life.
I mean we (the taxpayers) pay to provide the accused with many things they didn’t give to their alleged victims, like a fair trial and due process. Your argument for the death penalty is fallacious in this regard, as are most arguments for capital punishment.
Honestly, it’s a barbaric practice eliminated in all other industrialized democracies. It’s the 21st Century, let’s get with the times.
I’m not entirely against the death penalty, but, damn. Let’s remember the eighth amendment.
Lettuce: Great quote from Blackmun. You can stick it to the Refrigerator with this one: “Blackmun had written the Roe ruling … , and had guarded it from previous attack from conservative justices.”
Just because the Supreme Court declares that something is allowed does mean that it is recommended or necessary.
Until the 13th Amendment, the Supreme Court said the that constitution allowed slavery.
The state is not an heinous criminal, so we do not act like one.
An eye for an eye leaves everyone blind.
The death penalty is not now nor has it ever been a deterrent to crime, not in ancient times or today.
Statistics show that families of murder victims rarely feel vindicated after the murderer is put to death.
So what is left to your argument is certitude and that’s what Bush uses to justify his war. Not very good company Oliver.
O G:
1) The state is not a heinous criminal, and executing criminals after a fair trial is not a heinous crime
2) A platitude is a platitude
3) You’re making that up…
4) See #3
5) Saying that people who agree with a position that you disagree with are like other not nice people you disagree with is just plain dumb.
Couldn’t you have come with at least one good argument against the death penalty?
I’ll give you one: Human beings are capable of changing their ways at any given moment. The existence of the death penalty implies that there is no room for a second chance. However, against that we have the idea that the charges and the sentence are usually tailored with the defendant’s potential for rehabilitation in mind.
Um, what if the guy was wrongfully convicted–that he didn’t really do it?
Certainly not as much as multiple victims and their families did as they waited 27 years for him to be executed.
If a right-winger said that the current conditions of Iraqi civilians aren’t worth complaining about because they “certainly suffered worse under Saddam,” you’d rightly point out how they were spewing nonsense.
If you can think of a better method for removing murderers from the world, lemme know. Should we coddle Timothy McVeigh, etc.?
Yeah, that was a close one. I was really terrified that McVeigh might have escaped from the SuperMax and bombed another building. How glad I am to not live in California, where any minute Charles Manson could escape from his cell and go on a killing spree. And I can’t stand how Manson is coddled, I mean the way he’s served steak and blowjobs every morning by Playboy Playmates is just infuriating. Again, if a right-winger accused you of wanting to “coddle” Guantanamo inmates, you’d rightly call them on their nonsense.
Look, if you support the death penalty because you personally believe murderers deserve to be executed, fine. I disagree with you but it’s your opinion. But the excuses you’re offering are shockingly hypocritical, and at the very least lame long before you even pulled them from the right-wing playbooks that have flogged them for decades.
Jesus, Oliver, you are such a predictable nitwit.
Frank DiSalle | Dec 15, 2006 11:27:50 PM
“I’ll give you one: Human beings are capable of changing their ways at any given moment.”
If anyone understands this, it’s Frank. How’s the online dating going?
The capital punishment system in this country is a sick, sick joke.
If we must have capital punishment then there should be a special court convened with higher standards of proof than shadow-of-a-doubt. No appeal on conviction: immediately after the verdict the criminal is taken out behind the courthouse and shot in the head. Twice if necessary.
The person pulling the trigger should be selected each time from citizens who support capital punishment. Service in this position will be compulsory.
This needs to be written into the constitution.
I’m not entirely against the death penalty, but, damn. Let’s remember the eighth amendment.
Well there you have the judicial dilemma — how do you measure cruel and unusual?
Proportionality? Compassion?
Because the system is never wrong.
DNA evidence, racial bias, incompetent defense, corrupt city, state, and federal officials, the reasons for hesitancy are legion where the death penalty are concerned (and dozens, if not literally hundreds of dubious cases are documented all over the net). There are cases of innocent people languishing on death row for decades only to finally be freed. Does their suffering count? How about their families?
Over 100 people have been freed from death row over the last 30 years or so, and the number, thanks to DNA testing, is rapidly growing.
You can’t “un” kill someone should new evidence come to light.
Is “fd” DiSalle the same Frank as Condipundit? He seems much, much more deranged.
“Oh murder is so wrong you see
Both the Bible and the courts agree
That the state’s allowed to murder in the chair” – Phil Ochs
There is something viscerally pleasing about letting the bastard “get what he deserves,” isn’t there? But its worth considering whether or not we want our system of justice to be about more than satisfying an primeval lust for revenge. I don’t want to teach my children that an “eye for an eye” is the highest form of justice.
Don’t kill in my name.
I suppose by griping over this issue gives a person an air of “toughness” on crime? What a crock. Couple reasons I am vehemently opposed to the death penalty:
1. I do not judge on others lives; believe in eye for an eye etc… This mentality only feeds into(in Oliver’s case) his reptilian brains need for blood.
2.I don’t believe in promoting a culture of death. How has the death penalty made our country better? I believe our crime rates are astronomical compared to other countries.
3. Death is an easy answer.I don’t propose we give criminals an easy out on thier crimes. If the country has such a lust for revenge, then why not make the person pay his debt to society: Hard labor and basic nutrition(meals). Work to create for our communities needs(obviously from prison walls).
Oliver,
Condoning revenge or government sanction murder doesn’t make you more of a man but rather less of a human being.
Okay, but I still want them dead.
It would be less mudled with the electric chair?
You’ve got to do some research, OW. the screwups with the electric chair ws what brought the chemicals in in the first place.
Pfeh. If recent American history is ANY guide whatsoever, innocent people will be executed.
Innocent men have been released from Death Row and so bviously, innocent men have also been been executed.
Are you callous enough to write their lives off as eggs in the law-n-order omelet?
FB
S, please tell me what you’re talking about…
This should be GOOD!
Nimrod, yes, I’m back, you left wing a – hole!
Okay, but I still want them dead.
As Sir Mick once said, you can’t always get what you want.
Frank DiSalle | Dec 16, 2006 3:04:50 PM
“S, please tell me what you’re talking about… This should be GOOD!
Nimrod, yes, I’m back, you left wing a – hole!”
Frank, we’ve known for months about your profile on ‘urnotalone.com’. But nice try.
Gee, S, and this has what to do with the price of tea in China?
Not to mention the fact that there is something very strange about checking up on someone who is no longer posting.
Finally, FYI, urnotalone.com is not about online dating. Neither is it about change. So, let’s try again, shall we?
What are you trying to say?
That was you?
Whatever, dude.
Frank DiSalle | Dec 16, 2006 4:16:22 PM
“Gee, S, and this has what to do with the price of tea in China?
Not to mention the fact that there is something very strange about checking up on someone who is no longer posting.
Finally, FYI, urnotalone.com is not about online dating. Neither is it about change. So, let’s try again, shall we?
What are you trying to say?”
Great to have you back, Frank, and best wishes with your ‘tranny chasing’!
It’s great to be back, even though I don’t remember your being here when I was here last.
I’m looking forward to reading your comments on discussing a person’s personal life in a political arena, and your views on gender issues. I’m expecting the usual liberal hypocricy.
Innocent men have been released from Death Row and so obviously, innocent men have also been been executed.
It’s not obvious. The innocent ones on Death Row did not go to the chair. That means that the mechanisms (popular opinion, legal appeals, last minute pardons) that prevented them from being executed, worked.
If anything, it implies that an innocent person could never have been executed.
Now that California is suspending executions, I’m reminded of a statement of Ernest van den Haag’s I read quoted the other day: If people were executed for murders committed on MON, WED and FRI, but not for murders committed on TUE, THU and SAT, on which days do you think you would be more murders? On which days do you think there would be less?
No, the demonstrable presence of innocent people on Death Row implies that innocent people probably have been executed in the past more than the opposite.
So for very powerful words where I come from: “Let him have it.”
Frank DiSalle | Dec 16, 2006 4:42:24 PM
” … I don’t remember your being here when I was here last. I’m looking forward to reading your comments on discussing a person’s personal life in a political arena, and your views on gender issues. I’m expecting the usual liberal hypocricy.”
I’m not surprised you don’t remember, Frank. You have a perfected habit of forgetting a lot of things while accusing anyone who disagrees with you of being arrogant wannabe Nazi pricks.
We’ve greatly enjoyed subdued responses from dr pedro (now banned) and Dugger since the Republicans got their asses kicked.
Ah, yes JKStraw — the only person I ever accused of being an arrogant wannabe Nazi prick, and not for disagreeing with me. It was for something else, entirely. Are Straw, or the execrable Roni?
If you are Roni, please tell me now, so I don’t waste another moment posting to this blog.
Nimrod: I at least gave some sort of support for my opinion. You simply contradicted me. WTF?
True. Place an unspoken “I’d say” after the “No”.
well done, Nimrod! My argument is now completely deflated.
What a jerk you are.
Frank, were you shocked when the Republicans had their asses handed to them after the midterm election?
Well, many people have been vindicated after execution and even subsequently pardoned from crimes post-mortem, which would indeed prove Nimrod’s theory correct.
s: No, I wasn’t.
A little surprised, disappointed, maybe; but, all in all, the Democrats only squeaked out a true power shift, as witness the rise in blood pressure in the Press when Sen. Johnson fell ill.
Shocked, no. Pissed off at the pork – barrel, unprincipled Republicans who ran to their left, yes.
Eric: many people? I don’t think so. Exceptions don’t prove the rule. There are not enough for me to think that we should abandon capital punishment, but then again, that’s why there’s a debate about it.
Although my opinion on capital punishment has changed many times, I have never held the belief “Better 10 guilty men go free, than 1 innocent man be executed.”
Frank, were you surprised that Donald Rumsfeld had his ass handed to him the day after the midterms?
I guess that depends on what you consider many. And we aren’t talking about anyone going free–that’s what life in imprisonment is for.
For deterrence value we should switch to the rack.
For efficiency decapitation is fine.
The electric chair (an Edison invention) and lethal injection are just efforts to kill people with a minimum of janitorial work needed after, for our benefit and not anyone else’s.
Frank
Nice to see we have a mindless troll.
As for your critique of my post.
I’m right your full of shit.
Oliver,
Stop playing violent games on-line. Get out do some community work, lose a few lbs., I do want you to live to a ripe old age. When you do good deeds, your attitude towards all life will change.
I’m in favor of the death penalty because I’m fat? That’s a new, wrong, one.
Organic George has called me a “mindless troll.” I’ll guess I’ll go back under the bridge for a while.
Organic George has called me a “mindless troll.” I’ll guess I’ll go back under the bridge for a while.
Jesus Christ, Frank, I was just politely putting forward my own interpretation of the statement.
umm, if you think that states have the right to choose methods of execution, then you have to believe that states have the right not to execute people too.
You sound like a damned psychopath whose pissed off that no enough people are dying. It should be noted that this line of thinking (bad people deserve to suffer) is the exact excuse used to torture people by every nutjob right winger in the country.
Action Comics 775. “What’s So Funny About Truth, Justice and the American Way?”
What do people mean when they say the injection malfunctioned? The condemned is dead, innit he?
“I’m expecting the usual liberal hypocricy.”
ROFL. Classic.
I guess you thought I was being a bit harsh. I thought you were being a smart ass (especially after “welcoming me back,” by calling me deranged.)
Frank, you are deranged.
Oliver,
You are fat and as a black man you are at greater risk, that is a fact.
Support for the death penalty has nothing to do with you being fat, but playing violet video games instead of interacting with real people supports the the idea that violence is the answer. Just do unto others.
but playing violet video games instead of interacting with real people supports the the idea that violence is the answer.
That’s some of the dumbest shit I have ever read. Oliver doesn’t strike me as the kind of guy that does nothing but play video games all day long. It’s silly to assume that Oliver’s support for the death penalty has something to do with him supposedly not getting out enough.
s: You are a person who posts on a virtuously anonymous bulletin board, using only one letter instead of a name.
If anyone come close to being deranged, it is you.
And let us not forget that you tracked me down after I stopped posting — what were you looking for? A police blotter notice? An obituary?
And I’m deranged.
Fraaaannnk, ‘I know you are but what am I?’ is the best you can do?
You’re making assumptions and leaping to conclusions … which, understandably, is standard operating procedure for you.
Months ago, someone posted the urnotalone link without warning that it would redirect us to pictures of you which made most of us projectile vomit.
Re anonymity … no one else has matched your stupidity of posting their address on the internet.
Not an unsafe assumption — you brought it up. You commented on it.
You are beginning to sound suspiciously like Roni.
If you are Roni, why don’t you say so?
I’m perfectly willing to go away and not come back until I think you are gone — again.
If you are JK, I might not leave, but if the pestering continues, I will.
So, there you have it. Exhibit a minimum amount of integrity, and I’m out of your hair.
Whoever you are, you’re a real numskull, comparing your cowardly unwillingness to reveal your identity with my nonchalance about revealing my address.
Do you really think I expected a cowardly bigmouth like JK to come to my house, and take me on, even if he were half my age?
Is there any lefty on this site with the will to actually fight for what they believe in? Given their spineless attitude towards the war in Iraq, rest assured I felt I was, and am, in no danger.
So, what’s it gonna be, punk? Do you feel lucky today?
Hahahahahahahahahahaha …
You know what, S? Either you are Roni or JK, in which case I don’t want to be here; or, you are a benighted, besotted, imitator, and I still have no desire to fence with you.
It is not why I came here.
I leave you to the playground. If and when this place ever becomes a place where intelligent people discuss intelligent things intelligently, I will return.
I doubt that will happen, but I’ll check back every once in a while. Maybe you can change your name, fool me into believing you have left, and then you can pounce once again.
I will leave again, and you can continue to play Obnoxio, the Stalker.
Incidentally, do you treat anyone else like this, or is your stupidly juvenile behavior reserved for me?
fd10801 | Dec 17, 2006 11:50:27 PM
“Given their spineless attitude towards the war in Iraq, rest assured I felt I was, and am, in no danger.”
” … my nonchalance about revealing my address.”
A British man said to have carried out the country’s first “Web rage” attack was jailed for 2-1/2 years on Friday for assaulting a man with whom he had exchanged insults over the Internet.
Paul Gibbons, 47, from south London, admitted he had attacked John Jones in December 2005 after months of exchanging abuse with him via an Internet chat room dedicated to discussing Islam.
London’s central criminal court heard that Gibbons had “taken exception” to Jones, 43, after Jones alleged that Gibbons had been “interfering with children.”
After several more verbal and written exchanges, during which Jones threatened to track down Gibbons and give him a severe beating, Gibbons and a friend went to his victim’s house in Essex, east of London, armed with a pickaxe and a machete.
Jones himself was armed with a knife but Gibbons seized it from him, held it to his throat and “scratched” him across the neck, the court was told.
Gibbons, who the court heard had previous convictions for “violent offenses,” pleaded guilty to unlawful wounding on the first day of his trial last month.
Other charges of attempted murder and issuing online threats to kill four other chatroom users were not pursued but could be reactivated in future if he reoffends.
Media reports said it was Britain’s first “web-rage” attack and Judge Richard Hawkins said the circumstances were “unusual.”
“This case highlights the dangers of Internet chat rooms, particularly with regard to giving personal details that will allow other users to discover home addresses,” said Detective Sergeant Jean-Marc Bazzoni of Essex Police.
“S” didn’t post the urnotalone link. Might have been Frame.
OK, one last comment: I’m not surprised, AND I still have no desire to joust with S, or, for that matter, with frameone.
I am against the death penalty, but I think the guillotine is at least quick and sure, the chair, hanging and lethat injection are not.
Seems that poor Gramps has “fighting for what you believe in” confused with sociopathy. It does explain alot, though.
And let us not forget that you tracked me down after I stopped posting — what were you looking for? A police blotter notice? An obituary?
Well I certainly thought you were dead after your magical disappearance.
1) The state is not a heinous criminal, and executing criminals after a fair trial is not a heinous crime
A. Not all trials are “fair”.
B. If the state executes even one innocent person, it’s guilty of murder.
I personally like the “con” position, but I have to side with the people.
Just because a position is popular doesn’t make it right.
Also, if the justice system is SOOOO perfect, why not try all those suspected terrorists held in Gitmo and other secret prisons? Oh wait, I forgot, then the guards there wouldn’t get to torture them for shits and giggles.
Okay, but I still want them dead.
Kill them yourself, see how well that goes.
This thread makes me feel like I’m watching one of my Death Note fansubs, except stupider and with less L (i.e. less awesome). Seriously, you all supporting the DP sound so much like Light, it’s almost scary.
The death penalty is simply revenge. This a bad principle in achieving justice and is just one more violent act, in our violent society. The majority of the world has moved towards eliminating the death penalty, the US should too.
The death penalty is simply revenge. This a bad principle in achieving justice and is just one more violent act, in our violent society. The majority of the world has moved towards eliminating the death penalty, the US should too.
Exactly. Having a notion of justice rooted solely on vengance is simply juvinile.
Zython and drydock: There is indeed an element of revenge in capital punishment. Apparently, the Founding Fathers were not beyond including revenge in justice.
I contend that we have not reached a point as citizens yet where we are beyond that same inclusion.
You may be, and you may wish we all were, but we are not.
By the way, Zython, I’m not your grandfather. Of course, I might be. Could you send me a picture of your grandmothers?
Frank, were you surprised when Donald Rumsfeld had his ass handed to him the day after the midterms?
By the way, Zython, I’m not your grandfather. Of course, I might be. Could you send me a picture of your grandmothers?
…I’m going to assume you’re joking here. But just to be safe, I’ll call you Geezer instead. is that better?
S: Yes, I was surprised. So?
OK, Zython, you can call me Geezer, asshole.
You could be respectful (if that’s possible for jejune liberals) and call me Frank.
Or, you could just STFU.
Lots of options there, Junior…
fd10801 | Dec 19, 2006 3:02:04 AM
“S: Yes, I was surprised. So?”
Just asking a pleasant question according to “Frank’s Rules of Asking a Question on OW’s Blog”, Frank.
Funny how it happened the day after the midterms … like The Decider knew he had to listen to the American people on THAT day, huh?
LoL!
S: Actually, I can’t say no one knows why he did it, or why he didn’t do it earlier, or whatever.
I have no idea why he fired him. I certainly don’t think he benefited politically, whether he had done it in the Fall (when I think it might have benefited a number of Republicans running in close elections) or the day after Election Day.
Strategically, we don’t need a spy type in there.
We need one of the following (or any combination thereof) in there: A former logistics General, a “dog robber”, or a former Congressman / Senator.
Was President Bush influenced by the outcome of the Election? I seriously doubt that…
Wow, crazy number of comments here. Oliver, I have to disagree with you here, specifically because I am a Maryland resident. As far as the Death Penalty in Maryland is concerned, a University of Maryland study found it to be racist in it’s application by juries and prosecutors. That is a good enough reason for me to never support the Death Penalty. Well, either we eliminate racist juries or we eliminate the Death Penalty. One of these options is much easier and more definitive, I’ll leave it to you to decide which one.
wow, is it just me or has this devolved into the dumbest damned discussion ever?
“Okay, but I still want them dead.
Oliver Willis | Dec 16 12PM”
So do I, but it’s still wrong.