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No. But do YOU know the connection? Since you brought it up, I hope so.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg, eh?

Just about any reading you do on poverty and teen pregnancy, and birthrates overall will point out that people who live in poverty or at lower income levels are more likely to have children early, and more of them. Doesn’t really matter what their ethnic makeup is. This is one reason people such as Pat Buchanan (and others, in less racist and dramatic fashions) have been bemoaning the “death of the West”. As income and education levels rise, as people gain access to more opportunity and so on, birth rates drop.

Teen birth rates in the US far outpace other Western nations tho, it seems, for other reasons as well. Thankfully, as has been said, those rates are dropping.

Or were. We’ll see what the next surveys show, after the various policies that have been implemented in the past few years start showing their effects.

Black babies are not the cause of poverty (or crime, ala Bill Bennett). Having babies when one is not prepared for them can definitely exacerbate already existing conditions, especially if there are other factors such as lack of support, drug use and so on.

There’s no crisis with fathers supporting their childen within the black community? I guess the Million Man March movement was just for fun?

A good suggested home business by some is tracking down absent fathers that are in arrears in their child support payments. Do the vast majority of fathers who divorce or separate from their partners skip out on their responsibilities? No, I don’t think so… but enough of them do that not only do the courts sometimes take action, but private businesses springing up to cash in on finding them.

I’d venture to speculate that most of those that are hiring these people are not black.

I would not, no, say there is a “crisis” with black men supporting their children. There are definitely some who do not, as there are of all other ethnicities and colors. There are also those who would lay down and die for their babies.

See, the frustration of this conversation is the continued inability to accept that yes, black people really are individuals who are part of the overall society – and that the issues that are of concern (or should be) to the larger society are the same ones that are of concern to various black people and their communities. Really, people of good will and who strive to be anti-racist should put down the right wing propaganda and walk away.

Take any “black problem” and tell me if it is one that is applicable only to black people. Conversely, take any “white” um… tradition or concern, I guess, and tell me if it is only applicable to white people.

The million man march was about a whole host of things, including ourselves taking care of ourselves… was talk of stepping up and making sure you are there for your children part of it? No doubt, but only within a much wider framework. This wiki article can give you a general overview and links to other stuff, should you wish to find out what it was all about.

As P6 pointed out, the level of poverty dropped dramatically during the Clinton years. What he failed to point out was that teen pregnancy (as you mention) also dropped dramatically during those years. Coincidence?

No. But do YOU know the connection? Since you brought it up, I hope so.

I think you mean 68% of those within the ethnic group who are having babies

“68% of babies born within an ethnic group have unwed mothers” should make the statement more clear and accurate.

As P6 pointed out, the level of poverty dropped dramatically during the Clinton years. What he failed to point out was that teen pregnancy (as you mention) also dropped dramatically during those years. Coincidence?

You may find the following document from the CDC interesting:
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/hus/hus06.pdf

from http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/

My main point, though, with any of the issues brought up here… the anti-intellectualism brought up by Oliver, teen or adult unmarried births, fathers and their presence or lack of it in the homes, poverty, etc, etc… these are US cultural problems, some of them exacerbated by state and government policies (racist and otherwise) and structural issues within poorer communities, which are for now mostly black, hispanic, asian so on. Schools, services, housing, job training, or even just hope in some areas.

Not any of these things can be effectively solved, in my opinion, by segregating the issues as being ‘black’ problems as opposed to overall community or US problems – again partially due to racism, which also has the affect of making sure poorer whites and others of different ethnicities also suffer the fallout of the policies, if not the diminishing from being the subject of constant studies and reports that emphasize one aspect of things, but not in any sort of context of overall community or national problems.

Bah… it’s entirely possible that the above is presented with less than perfect clarity, but oh well… I’ve gotta run.

I think you mean 68% of those within the ethnic group who are having babies. With the ethnic group itself being something like 13 million and the births (married or no) within those millions being something like 570,000 the numbers do make a difference.

I think one place where communication falls down here is on not only what the problem is, but whose problem is it. Me, I think of this as a US cultural problem, not particularly a “black problem”… while teen births have been steadily decreasing (with, apparently, young black girls leading the way) more and more women of all ethnicities are having babies sans marriage vows. Remember these numbers (regardless of ethnicity) also include people who are cohabitating and are not formally married – I’ve read anywhere from 20-40% would be in that group.

I’m confident you can find a way to explain how racism causes just about everything.

Nope. Just the things it actually causes.

If you think Black people are reacting in some fundamentally different way you create “solutions” that would not work for ANY humans. You’re like an auto mechanic with no experience beyond repairing lawn mowers.

This is a collective thing, so it shifts the odds.

This is an “ignorance of others” thing, so you CAN’T come up with a correct solution.

This is a “close your mind to alternatives” thing, so when you’re wrong you can’t admit it.

This is a “talk instead of deal in facts” thing, so you don’t realize once your solutions are decoded they are nothing more than deadly insults.

Racism created the situation that developed into the United States of America. Racism is a continuing weight, irrespective of whether we are as individuals capable of overcoming it. Racism causes some burdens to exceed the capability of particular individuals. But as a collective issue you have to correct it on a collective basis.

I could

Of course you could. I’m confident you can find a way to explain how racism causes just about everything. As I said before…good luck with that.

Since P6 is unable to explain how racism is responsible for this, maybe you can?

If I cared what your race-baiting butt thought, I could.

Having a baby without being married is also not an automatic ticket to entrenched poverty

Who ever said that it was? But if you are going to deny that the chances of living in or near poverty are not dramatically increased when over 68% of an ethnic population is creating babies outside of marriage, then you are living in a dream world.

affordable, qualified child care

Paid for by whom?

Not being married also doesn’t mean that the fathers are not around, by the way

There’s no crisis with fathers supporting their childen within the black community? I guess the Million Man March movement was just for fun?

Since P6 is unable to explain how racism is responsible for this, maybe you can?

I know, P6 – rude of me. I realize that for all the narratives these folks have crafted (with much assist from right wing “think tanks) to have resonance and make any sense, we cannot be seen to exist.

To make up for it, and so that no bubbles of complacent and casually racist thought about black folks are burst, I’ll announce here in front of one and all that I am going to tell my ex-husband that he is my babydaddy. Mind you, considering that my baby is 27 (and it’s really about time for her to start lying about her age), and that he was in the delivery room at the time she arrived, it may not come as too much of a shock. Still, I think Springer would be interested.

It hadn’t even occurred to me until reading this thread that I am half a first generation American born black person, my father (and step mother and half brothers and sisters) being Nigerian and living in Nigeria and my mother being American. Surely Mother Africa trumps colonial outpost? I really must find someone to look down on, for some reason or another.

Then again, maybe Oliver and others can come to the realization that just as there are 8 million stories in the city, there are many millions of stories behind all the statistics – and more to them than what is shown on the news or TV shows.

Having a baby without being married is also not an automatic ticket to entrenched poverty… in some Scandinavian countries it’s more the norm than not. Lack of an access to a support system, though – to affordable, qualified child care (which problem also affects people who are married with children), to funds for education, etc… that presents a huge problem. Not being married also doesn’t mean that the fathers are not around, by the way.

Ah, well… why bother.

There is no one, simple, answer to all the things that plague blacks. But most white people are sure that racism is just one of them, and not the greatest of them.

Black folks have pursued education, land ownership, politics, gone to court, sought legal recourse since the dawn of the nation. We take every appraoch possible.

If you, as a black person, cannot concede (stipulate to?) that, then there is actually nothing to discuss.

And what do you do when you’ve beaten all the obstacles that came your way, and only racism is left?

We may have nothing to talk about because it seem you can’t see your requirement has been met.

I listen to silly arguments like “affirmativer action make white people doubt Black people’s capabilities” when the general image of Black people in the American mind is light years ahead of what it was in the 50s’…as a result of the graduates that got a chance due to affirmative action.

IT DENIES PHYSICAL REALITY.

And expect me to stipulate your beliefs about my life.

Nope. Not gonna happen. I can talk to you with your understanding in mind; you’d have to talk to me with my understanding in mind. And if you can’t hold up your end of that, or are not interested in doing so, we have nothing to talk about.

And I’ll just tell my descendants to stay strong until white folks are the minority. Won’t be long.

And ignore mine.

Yes. I did. Because the discussion was about immigrant vs. native born Black folks, and YOU decide to divert the discussion. I told you if you didn’t answer my question (your answer…”Who knows?” was pure avoidance.).

Why should I give half a damn about your concerns when you don’t care about mine?

And I thought you didn’t want any more of my thought?

If you, as a black person, cannot concede (stipulate to?) that, then there is actually nothing to discuss.

You ask what an individual can do? When I took Criminal Justice and American Politics,we had a Pro v. Con debate on whether or not there was discrimination in the administration of the death penalty. I got the “con” side.

After the debate, I said, “The debate was really unfair. The death penalty gets so much attention that the chance that discrimination enters into it is slim. The question to ask is “If a white guy is walking down the street in the middle of the night, and, across town, a black guy is walking down the street in the middle of the night, who is more likely to get stopped?
End up in the back of a police car? Arrested at the station? End up in Court? Found guilty? Do time?”

“You all know the answer to those questions. Do I have to say it?”

You could have heard a feather hit a pillow in a hurricane.

I think the professor gulped, swallowed, and said,”Let’s take a break.”

Did I mention there were 5 local policemen in the class?

You keep talking about ALL Black folks

Again you’ve demonstrated a failure to read the words I actually used rather than your preconceived notions of what expect to see. Too bad for you.

speaking of individuals

Not according to the words you actually wrote. Evidentially, you can’t even understand your own words much less mine. You’re blind to your own racism and it pollutes your discussion.

I bring facts

And ignore mine. How’s that explanation about how racism causes 68% of black children to be born outside of marriage? Are you getting any closer to explaining how that incredibly high out-of-wedlock birth rate has nothing to do with poverty?

Oh, I forgot…you can’t see beyond “Not fair, Not fair!” Good luck with that. Maybe it’ll keep you warm at night.

I’ve been talking TO individuals, ABOUT individuals. You keep talking about ALL Black folks. I bring facts an documentation, you bring noise and rhetoric, as though words define things rather than describing the known and indicating the new.

And you call my position, documented by fact, speaking of individuals…YOU…racist.

I think I’ve decided between your being liar or in denial. Denial is the thing.

You clearly see white people as a collective group working to oppress others, which is a racist belief.

Wrong again. I see white people as a whole sitting on their asses doing nothing about racism.

There’s no point in discussing any further.

I told you that in the very beginning.

TOLD you we’re better than you.

Will you even admit racism is an obstacle?

Since I have said so repeatedly, I have to assume you’re not reading but rather projecting what you already believe. There’s no point in discussing any further.

as white people take collective action against our efforts to eliminate it…as white people reflexively defend any white person caught flagrantly out of pocket

You clearly see white people as a collective group working to oppress others, which is a racist belief. I have no further interest in your polluted thoughts.

What I find interesting is that, just on this one site, and in this one thread, you have a fair number of black folks representing various economic and educational levels, from different backgrounds and in different areas of the country, each bringing in parts of their own experiences, adding nuance – and yet there is still the absolute insistence on the parts of some of defining “black culture” by its lowest common denominator.

How dare you notice that?

fd10801:

I’m going to assume you are honest when you say you support those things.

Now, have you actually followed my discussion here? If you have, you’d have seen I deal in individual AND collective issues. So when you ask

What can I do about the racism of others?

I can only say, “it depends on if you WANT to do anything.”

Because white folks will not take me seriously. But they will take YOU seriously.

YOU can challenge white racism directly.

And you can start by dealing with ACCURATE INFORMATION.

Black Men Imprisonment Data
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/prisons.htm

Black Men in Jail vs. College Myth: (a false claim endorsed by the NAACP)
http://www.globalblacknews.com/Jail.html

AIDS is the leading cause of death for black women 25-44? (and 1397 AIDS deaths from a disease that was contracted 5-10 years ago)
http://webappa.cdc.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe?_service=v8prod&_server=lscb5500&_port=5081&_sessionid=/NB0ch6HhO1&_program=wisqars.percents10.sas&age1=25&age2=34&agetext=25-34&category=ALL&_debug=0
http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/leadcaus10.html

Can you talk to me about the FACTS on which your views are based? Or are you a Copernican…standing in the center of the universe, all things are only as you see them to be?