How embarrassing is this "listening tour" by the president? Can anyone imagine FDR buzzing around in DC for opinions during WWII? George Bush has made of his presidency, and more importantly, America, and is trying to spin his way out. Even worse, can you imagine if the GOP had won the fall elections? Then, not only would Bush be lost for direction but he’d still be pretending that we were winning the war!
This presidency was supposed to be the tested "CEO president" along with his wise and experienced senior staff. The entire Democratic field for 2008 is looking that much better now. One of you, please come save us.
Sure, take all the time your want, Mr. President. Afterall, you haven’t had a plan for the last three years, what’s three more weeks.
What a petulant asshole.
He is the “CEO president” and he’s turned America into Harken Oil.
Even you can’t be this brazen Ollie.
If he makes decisions “himself” then he is mocked for not being inclusive, if he takes and listens to opinions, then he is indecisive.
Why not just post a generic “I hate george bush, and if he is for christmas, I’m agaisnt it”…and just save some these internet tube thingies…
There’s nothing wrong with taking in information, but making a show of it three years and 3,000 bodies too late is deserving of scorn and shame.
“Rollingstone called George Bush the Worst President ever. I mean come on? Maybe worst American president, but worst president ever? I think Liberia has had a few bad ones. And what about the Selena fan club president? I mean she shot the main lady in the face… which I guess makes her more of a vice-president”—– From Greg Giraldo on Comedy Centrals Last Laugh in 06′
No, Ollie, its not….
The whole point is that Iraq has NOT gone as orginally planned, and now needs a new direction. And he is rightfully solicited opinion as to what that direction should be. This is called leadership…you get the data then you make a decision.
He took in information before the war too, and made decisions, some good, some bad. And now he is going to make some more decisions, some good some bad. This cherry-picking of history that you do is just ridiculous though. You pick out all the pre-war opinions that were correct, and ignore the fact that the same people said we would lose “tens of thousands” of our troops invading baghdad..
I’ve said it before, the leftists in american must secretly pray for bad things to happen in Iraq, because if it becomes a stable country, the chances of the democrats winning in ‘08 disappear. Isn’t it sort of painful hoping for your own country to lose?
“Isn’t it sort of painful hoping for your own country to lose?”
This is such a hack comment it frankly defies belief. Pedro, Iraq didn’t just go south last week. It’s been steadily going south for three years.
Personally, I really do think the president should be talking to a lot of people about what to do now, especially, you know, competent people.
The idea, however, that the president doesn’t like to be or shouldn’t be pressed on the issue is ridiculous. People are dying now because he didn’t think he needed a plan until after the November elections. That’s fucking disgusting.
yeah, meeting with military leaders certainly can be characterized as a “listening tour…” a phrase that takes me back to the 2000 Senate campaign in NY, when HRC needed to go from town to town in upstate NY because she had no clue where or who lived there.
And I don’t seem to recall you complaining about a bunch of unqualified people chose to give their advice to the President… you know, people like a former congressman from the 9th district in IN, a US Supreme Court Justice (who are always known for their foreign policy prowess), or board members from Revlon who are known for handing out jobs to “well connected” interns.
just saying…
Isn’t it sort of painful hoping for your own country to lose?
Take an Oxycontin then, because your pain must be intense.
By supporting a loser who has saddled us with a losing policy, you have done everything in your power to damage our nation.
Please stop helping your country lose, and your pain may subside.
Hopefully not too quickly.
I’ll ignore the by now boring dig about all the leftists hating America and note that the opinion I listen to about why going to war was bad is my own. And I was, sadly, right. It’s not cherry picking history to point that out. I never said we would lose tens of thousands of troops, I did say we would fuck up the peace.
The administration did not seek a range of opinions going into war. In fact they cherry picked the worst case scenario and threw it against the wall hoping it would stick. You know that, I know that, and I don’t know why the right keeps pretending otherwise.
The funny thing is you guys are comparing the kabuki dance involved in running for office (an office I’ll note that Sen. Clinton won twice overwhelmingly by those New Yorkers who were supposed to hate her) to the most serious business of running a war (and Bush hasn’t just met with the military, he’s met with the ISG, state dept., and I bet he’s got a meeting with a bunch of mall Santas scheduled too). It’s amazing the way you guys will try to spray perfume on Bush’s shit, to the point where this post-election dance by him is regarded by you as “serious thinking” when we all know the end result is likely to be “stay the course” (doing otherwise is for Bush to admit he was wrong, and he is physically incapable of it).
You’ll also recall I have posted numerous times that I don’t think much of the ISG because it’s the same Bush B.S. dressed up in bipartisan robes. It doesn’t get us out of Iraq and it doesn’t stop Americans from being killed. I’m not against a stable, democratic Iraq but much in the same way the Redskins have already been eliminated from the playoffs I’d be a fool to think it’s still going to happen.
The right, and George Bush in particular, refuse to get serious about this war and until then a lot of good people have and are going to die for the sake of Bush’s hubris.
“There’s nothing wrong with taking in information, but making a show of it three years and 3,000 bodies too late is deserving of scorn and shame.’
AHA! Using the ol’ body count again for political purposes. Don’t forget, without George Bush there would be many more bodies overall, - most of them tan and brown.
I was going to make a pot-kettle joke but frankly, given that Dugger does exactly what he AHA’d Oliver for in the same sentence, I don’t think I need to say anything.
My mistake, there’s a full stop and not a comma after “purposes”.
“Using the ol’ body count again for political purposes.”
You’re an idiot.
Ollie it is silly to say bush isn’t serious about the war. but then again, the only possible way you would consider him serious is if he tucks tail and runs.
Are you going to say he is “staying the course” if he surges troops a la McCain’s proposal?
So the war was a bad idea, in your opinion. How long were you going to let saddam get away with corrupting the UN Oil for Food program? How long were you going to play his little “kabuki dance” of running the inspectors all over the place, knowing that in less than three months he could have a full scale bioweapon production facility up and running?
Before you go to your extremely thin play book and say he was “contained”, please explain to me how OBL being “contained” isn’t exactly the same argument. Also explain to me while we haven’t had the rash of US terrorist attacks we were promised. And why the arab “street” hasn’t risen up against us, and all the other “warnings” the left gave us before we went to war…
“How long were you going to play his little ‘kabuki dance’ …”
Uh, pedro, you’re talking as if Iraq actually had WMDs or was anywhere making them. They weren’t. That’s what the inspectors were discovering just before Bush hastened them out of the country so he could proceed with his invasion. Given the facts as we know them today there was no threat — grave, imminent, gathering or whatever — at all to allowing the inspectors to continue their work. The only threat they posed was to Bush’s plans for war.
You make your other points with an equally selective memory/perception of reality.
The Arab street hasn’t risen up against us? WTF would you call the bloody fucking mess we now find ourselves in Iraq? And as to the containment of Bin Laden and al Qeada, go tell it to the people of London, Madrid or Indonesia or our own soldiers in Iraq. Or are you telling us that al Qeada isn’t fully operational in Iraq?
I’m kind of ashamed of myself for being surprised that Bush wants to “surge” the troops. I think he probably is serious about the war, but unfortunately “serious” and “sensible” aren’t the same thing. Instead of being serious like most of America and Britain right now, which would lead him to pull the fuck out and reconsider the whole goddamned mess, he’s serious in a drooling Sterling Hayden/Wade Elling sort of way, like Dugger and his constant misuse of the S-word.
OBL killed 3,000 Americans - or have you forgotten? Saddam couldn’t barely even move in his little box. You’re not seriously saying we’ve sent 3,000 Americans to die in order to avenge the oil for food program, are you?
Do you think that there is no lesson for the rest of the world if we let a petty tyrant drag the UN and the world around by its nose? Actions (or inactions) have consequences. OBL flat out said that Mogidishu is what led him on his jihad. After the invasion all of a sudden Khaddafi is now rolling over and playing nice.
This is where the “progressive” liberals lose it: they don’t understand the long-term consequences…all they see is what is going on right here and now.
Frameone says
“Uh, pedro, you’re talking as if Iraq actually had WMDs or was anywhere making them. ”
Yea, you should go tell that to the kurds paul, they will happy to know they weren’t killed by chemical weapons…
OUR chemical weapons, Pedro. Our chemical weapons. Just remember that.
Pedro: It’s too late. We’ve already “showed the world” our resolve by allowing a mass murderer to run free. That’s where the righties lose it: they refuse to acknowledge the facts and the long term consequences of letting homicidal maniacs go.
which mass murderer is being allowed to “run free” ollie?
OBL? Living in a cave in the hindu kush afraid to break wind cause a CIA predator is likely to send a hellfire missile right up his bunghole? You call that “running free”?
Jesus, you wanted to let Saddam continue to live in his castles, to let his foul spawn pick up random girls on the street and rape them…but OBL is “running free”?
Lefties are really reality challenged aren’t they?
Concentrate, Pedro.
Did we catch Bin Laden? No we did not. Do we know where he is now? No we do not.
Therefore the son of a bitch is free.
When you have to find torturous ways to qualify the freedom of Osama Bin Laden, you really ought to start reconsidering your blind devotion to “YOUR SIDE”.
“Yea, you should go tell that to the kurds paul …”
Are you a total idiot? Are you brain damaged? Hussein attacked the Kurds with chemical weapons in the 1980s. The Halabja gas attack was in 1988. After the first Gulf War, Hussein was totally disarmed and in 2003 he had no WMDs, no stockpiles, and no means to make them.
Do you think there is no lesson for the rest of the world that we invaded a country that posed no threat to us or anyone else based on what turned out to be total fabrications and misinformation? Do you think that there is no lesson for the rest of the world that since our invasion we have been totally unable to control that country, leading to the deaths of tens of thousands of people, including 3,000 Americans?
You’re unbelievable.
Unfortunately Paul, your response is exactly why the democrat party is going to lead to another attack.
Saddam had no means to “make” chemical weapons? Are you absolutely out of your tree?
You can make chemical weapons in a college chemistry lab paul….you did take a chemistry class didn’t you? The threat from Hussein was that as soon as he finished pulling the wool over the eyes of the UN inspectors (not a real challenge), he then makes a gallon of VX, hands it to some terrorist group….and bang, the great satan gets to take one on the kisser.
Keep repeating to yourselves lefties: Per the UN resolution, Iraq had to PROVE that their weapons were gone…not just holler “olly olly oxen free” and let people roam aimlessly around until they got bored of looking.
Doesn’t the complete flaunting of UN resolutions bother you at all?
And Nimrod, in your parlance, you are a twit.
Let me give you a better analogy.
You lock someone up in a jail cell, and Nimrod claims “He’s free! See, he can get up and walk to the sink and back”
Bin Laden isn’t locked up in a jail cell! We never caught him! We don’t know where the fuck he is! Jesus Christ, what the hell do you even have a doctorate in?
“Doesn’t the complete flaunting of UN resolutions bother you at all?”
Pedro, I expect dictators to do what I expect dictators to do. I expected that dicatators will resist international pressure and try to get around it ifonly to maintain their domestic political position. Hussein’s resistance to the UN resolutions was to be expected, he had to put up a defiant front to hold on to the reigns of power.
In reality, as wenow know, Hussein was a paper tiger.
Indeed, there is an argument to be made that all the attention we heaped on Hussein as this serious threat helped him to prop up his own domestic image as a powerful Arab leader. By suggesting that he was a global hreat on the scale of Hitler, we were, in essence, helping him with his own propaganda campaign.
Of course as soon as Hussein was threatened with force by the UN and the Iraq War Resolution, he backed down, and allowed inspectors back in. After that it was only a matter of time before the truth, that he was a papaer tiger, would have come to light. Why the Bush administration couldn’t wait until the inspections were completed before invaded, we’ll never know.
Of course, you claim it is because “You can make chemical weapons in a college chemistry lab” and Hussein was ready and willing to hand a gallon of biotoxin to terrorists.
The Bush administration wanted us all to beleive this, that Hussein was biding his time until the inspectors left then bam, he was going to strike. But pedro, Hussein could have done this at any time between 1991 and 2003 and he didn’t. And for a good chunk of that time, there were no inspectors in Iraq at all. He didn’t have to outsmart anyone. According to you, he just had to do it. But, again, he didn’t. Why?
Because he wasn’t waiting to pounce, he was a paper tiger.
Hussein did what anyone should expect a paper tiger dictator to do. Bluff and parry until faced with real consequences, then he folded. Sure he continued his evasions, but it was all political theater for purely Iraqi domestic consumption. If he had allowed the inspectors to continue their task the truth would come out. And maybe that truth, that Hussein was a paper tiger, would have lead to internal Iraqi regime change - especially if the US government was working non-violently to bolster a domestic political opposition.
But instead of working it that way, we had to go to war. Why? There was absolutely no good reason to. None, whatsoever.