We got a formal surrender?

Oh dear God. You’re not going to pester everyone with an argument over the meaning of the word “long,” are you?

If you’re of the opinion that the course of events in Iraq may take a turn for the better at some time in the future, do say so. Spare us another quibble over a meaning that was quite clear.

The duration of the conflict has already surpassed Mr. Rumsfeld’s most pessimistic forecasts. By that measure, we have definitely arrived in the “long” term.

Oliver! Have a cup of coffee. We know of NO long term repercussions of the Iraq war because there hasn’t been time enough. The operative word is “long”. Sweet Jesus.

Um, Drone, have you expressed anything other than your opinion so far?

You don’t think the US should withdraw. That’s an opinion my friend. So to are all your prognostications as to what would happen. The violence will get worse? There’s a good probability that it might, but it isn’t a fact. It might not happen. It’s only your opinion that it would.

Let me take you back a bit …

Some people going into the war had the opinion that we would be greated as liberators. Others had the opinion that we could end up bogged down by urban warfare and street fighting. Still others had the opinion that we were unleash decades of ethnic and religious hatred and find ourselves stuck in the middle of a long, bloody fight for power.

I say it’s time to give a listen to the people whose opinions were proved correct the first time around.

So this is your first blog? Check around. You’ll find the same sort of thing elsewhere.

I know. I just seems that OW sometimes has a tendency to express his opinion as if it were fact.

Dude! It’s a blog!

Thank God you’ve got that extensive background in journalism and as a “liberal bomb thrower” to help you make this snap expert assessment of the current military and political situation in Iraq.

Try not to confuse opinion with fact.

I’m saying that if you haven’t been speaking with the same fervor on the situations in Rwanda and Darfur, then your protestation rings hollow. In fact, it could be argued that you’re saying that American lives are equivalent to Iraqi lives, but that Sudanese and Rwandans are just a little less important.

(As for the “bleeding heart” thing…that was snark. When liberals espouse such principles, we get smeared as “namby pamby.”)

Our credibility in the region?

Googly-moogly, Bullwinkle!

V: Where exactly did I say this?

The relevant quote is pasted directly above my comment.

Have I “campaigned loud and long” for staying in Iraq? Please point out where I did so.

I just said that I agree with the multiple Generals (both active duty and retired) who are saying that withdrawing from Iraq at this point would be a disaster for the Iraqi people. I’m sorry that you take this as a “bleeding heart screed” for the poor Iraqis. I also believe that a premature withdrawal would be a blow to American credibility in the region. “We’ll help you until we start to lose too many people or the political price gets too high and then you’re on your own” is not exactly the way to inspire confidence or gain friends.

As I noted, I think we need to stop and get an honest appraisal of where we are and what options we have. “Stay the course” is stupid. If the approach we’re taking hasn’t worked so far, it’s not going to miraculously start working. Some kind of properly done, phased withdrawal may turn out to be the best course of action to take. But let’s take a look at where we are first, shall we? Too many on the left (including the Dem leadership) are saying “Everything’s screwed up over there, we need to pull out now”. There are valid arguments that we should never have gone into Iraq in the first place. But that’s a moot point now. We DID go in and we ARE there now. We have to deal with the situation as it is, not the one that we should have or we wish we had.

And regarding Darfur and Rwanda? I think in both cases we should have intervened in some way rather than leave it to the UN to bungle.

You’re right. That is the argument. I happen to think that argument neglects important facts.

- It was our invasion that precipitated the current violence

- Our current course of action shows no probability of ending the violence.

- Proposed courses of action will cost lots of money and get lots of people–American and Iraqi–killed

- In all likelihood, the eventual outcome will be the same no matter how long we stay.

That we have bungled our way to the bottom of this hole doesn’t make it “racist” to propose putting down the shovel.

Should we send troops into harms way to protect the lives of innocent foreigners abroad? It depends on the situation and the plan put forth.

I can support working in concert with international agencies and coalitions to protect innocent life in chaotic situations.

I can’t quite muster the same support for invading a country just because it’s run by a brutal dictator — especially when that dictator has already been rendered unable to attack his own people or his neighbors through a coalition of international agencies and forces.

We’ve been in Iraq for over three years now because Bush was unwilling to let inspections run their course. Why? We may never know.

Should we now withdraw from Iraq? I think so, in part, because the withdrawl plans put forward emphasize redployment, not disengagement.

I think we all recognize that there can be no military solution the internal ethnic politics of Iraq. I don’t know a single plan that suggests the US should wash its hands of IRaq and never look back. Every plan to reduce US troops presence is tied to increased diplomatic and political efforts to find a solution.

“Brown people” are dying at an alarming rate with our troops in the firezone. They will also die at an alarming rate if we leave. This is an impossible scenario if you base the next American action entirely on Iraqi casualties.

While I think OW is oversimplifying, I can understand the idea that if Iraqis are going to die either way, if it’s going to be hell and bloodshed no matter what, then why include American troops and contractors in that firestorm? This is a tragedy for Iraq, but it was a tragedy the second that the Rumsfeld “fast cheap war” doctrine was put into effect.

John McCain had an interesting comment earlier today about how he couldn’t ask a Marine to go back to Iraq and risk his life if it were only to delay defeat by a few months.