Um, Marty, Kerry wasn’t being unintentionally insulting.

When you unintentionally insult someone it means that you were not aware that the meaning you intended could be insulting to a listener.

But Kerry never intended the meaning of his words. He mangled the delivery of a joke. His intended meaning never actually made it out of his mouth.

I don’t understand. Did he sign a statement waiving his right to be free from assault? Otherwise, put up or shut up if there’s “so much more,” Marty.

I consider myself tolerant, even of jokes that I don’t like for one reason or another. It isn’t that I don’t understand why and when people are genuinely offended by something when, for instance, they’re missing the context. I can typically see what I feel is their istake in judgement and, as above, try to clarify things if I can. What infuriates me inthis instance is the lengths the right has gone to rob Kerry’s remarks of their context to have him saying something that he clearly wasn’t. So much so that I feel, anyone who heard him say that and honestly believed that, as I said, a sitting senator and former soldier was baselessly insulting military personnel for no reason, is either lying, being willfully ignorant, or yes, just plain stupid.

See, here’s my thing about that: if anything, we “tolerant and open” people call others names to get them not to care when we do. Look man, honestly? If I have offended you by calling you a “fucking dolt” I’m legitimately sorry, but I haven’t used a worse term for you than I would on my own brother. And he and I get along damn fine. Hell I’ve used worse on my friends, man. You’re seriously bothered by that? Really? I’m honestly sorry for that man, but seriously, the idea of offense at that is so foreign to me that I really had no idea you’d take it that way. You can call me a scumsucking son of a whore if you like, I certainly wouldn’t mind that beer. Just extending the hand, seeing if we can’t patch this up.

Apparently you have never told a joke that unintentionally offended anyone. Nor have you ever been offended by a joke told by someone you never expected to hear it from. I guess that makes me a “fucking dolt.” I thought we’d go have a beer until you said that.

I find it interesting how the “tolerant” and “open” ones are the least likely to be able to see both sides of the coin and feel the need to call people names. Maybe I type angry, which sets you off. (I try to be reasonable.)

Uh- Doc? Do you know who Stark is? Not your typical “constituent.” You may want to look a little deeper into the story. It’s coming out in small bits, but there’s much more than what you’ve read here.

What is this? First, the guy was in no way a protestor. An agitator, perhaps, but also a constituent. His nuisance questions were indeed met with a chokehold. What point of this story do you believe is untrue?

And yes, I argue that anyone who was actually insulted is stupid. You believe a Military man is going to insult the intelligence of our soldiers? You believe a senator is going to claim our military is full of idiots? You think he’s going to do this in public immediately before an election? You think that that one way to look at his comment, out of the context of what he was saying (and who, specifically, he was talking about just a minute ago) is correct in spite of what common sense ought to tell you, and that it is not in need of critical examination on your part, and the absence of the benefit of the doubt? Then yes, you’re a fucking dolt.

Kerry’s statement did just that. He’s a high profile person and gets plenty of media coverage. His words got him into trouble. He insulted a very large group of people that he didn’t want to insult and he apologized.

But you seem to be arguing that all the people who were insulted are just stupid. That’s your opinion and you’re sticking to it.

Out of curiosity, how is examining the demographics of our volunteer military compared to our general population “vulgar?” (Or did you mean something else.)

Seriously- explain that one to me. Don’t some politicians use that as a reason for or against a draft? (Charlie Rangel, for example.) Don’t many people on the left (for lack of a better way to describe them) complain that the military are comprised of mostly the poor and people who can’t do something else and the more wealthy and educated you are the less likely your are to volunteer? I mean, I agree with you in a sense- it’s somewhat vulgar, not to mention factually wrong. But I’d like to hear more of your take on that.

And Doc? I hear ya on those dishonest stories pushed to the media. Dan Rather and Mary Mapes. Thousands being murdered and raped in the Superdome. An innocent protestor just minding his own business getting put in a choke hold by George Allen’s thugs (honest- he never pushed anybody.) The illegal (oops- perfectly legal) and classified SWIFT banking records surveilance program that was leaked.

It’s about a) the right wing’s ability to push a dishonest story on the media, and as a related concept, b) the media’s willingness to go along with the GOP’s “story of the day” in order to appear balanced.

And yes Kerry’s statement was easy to misinterpret. For chrissake he’s John Flipping Kerry. He could have said “I do enjoy cheddar cheese” and it would have been read as an attack on gold old fashioned American cheese. And the next day the headlines would all read “America-Hater Cheese-Bigot Kerry Claims ‘For chrissake we were talking about a sandwich!’” and it wouldnt make a lick of difference. For the same reason it hasnt made a lick of difference to you that in spite of the obvious arguments against the insipid claims of “Kerry R teh filp-flop, voted for the 87 before against” crap, you still feel justified in bringing it up. And given thats the case I cant even be bothered to point out that that phrasing forms an impossible circumstance where the very same spending bill is voted on twice, instead of Kerry in fact voting two different ways on TWO DIFFERENT BILLS that had the same figure attached.

But yes, I suppose I am blinded by my prejudices. Here is the prejudice that blinds me: As far as the idea a sitting senator and decorated military veteran actually saying anything to insinuate that our servicemen and women are incompetant, in the week before an election no less, anyone, ANYONE who would believe something like that, something so contrary to common sense much less political sense, something so inherently unpatriotic, ANYONE who would believe something so patently and obviously at odds with reality, is as stupid as a bag of shit.

That is my prejudice.

I will concede your implied point though, that Kerry is not a very skilled speaker. I would argue though, that he’s got George “Nukular Internets” W “Is our children learning” Bush “I know how hard it is to put food on your family” Jr beat by a mile and a half.

Only difference is one killed people, and one didn’t.

Watch the video. He says something about turning the clocks back and makes a joke about Republicans. Then he makes a joke about a different subject- the President. Then he stops to thank people for being there and the warm welcome. Then he seemingly changes the subject again by saying “but we’re here to talk about education…” – which most people would take as no longer talking about the prior subjects.

On education he gives the advice that leads to the “botched” joke that told the students (new subject) “you get stuck in Iraq” (new punchline) if you don’t get an education. My gosh- how could that have been misinterpreted. It sounds just like a Bill Maher joke. (Hasn’t Kerry been on Bill Maher’s show a few times?)

Perhaps it’s just his speechwriter’s fault for the poor structure of the speech. More likely, Kerry just screwed it up. Understandable given he’s been on a heavy stump schedule and is probably tired. Again- I give him the benefit of the doubt.

But damn- you must be blinded by your own prejudices not to see how it could have easily been interpreted the way it was by people both on the left and the right. The some on the left cringed that he said something so stupid until he came out swinging with the “I apologize to no one” press conference.

You think the AmVets and American Legion veterans are too stupid to know what they heard (regardless of what was intended?)

Or do you think that those who realized what Kerry was trying to say and still agree with the misinterpreted version are stupid too?

Jesus, so many people are so nervous about what John Kerry said, like he’s lying.

John Kerry is telling the truth and everyone knows it. Rich kids do not join the military, college bound kids don’t join the military, only the poor and those who can’t get scholarships do. Acting like he was lying or insulting people is just bullshit.

Yeah, I suppose it was pretty nuanced, and everybody should have known exactly what his words meant. (You know- the words that came out of his mouth- not the ones he meant to say.)

It should have been perfectly clear coming from a man who has always been so careful about what he says about the what troops in the field are doing. It should have been perfectly clear coming from the man who voted for the $87 billion before he voted against it. It should have been perfectly clear coming from a decorated veteran (who years earlier made a big scene of supposedly throwing his medals away) and politician who says our troops in the field are “terrorizing” women and children in the middle of the night.” It should be perfectly clear from a man who has always seen so eye-to-eye with this veterans and troops in the field.

Unthinkable that John Kerry would say something so stupid and so easy to misinterpret?

Not hardly.

I’ve stayed out of this one, because I somewhat gave Kerry the benefit of the doubt that he “misspoke” or “botched” the joke or whatever his excuse was. He probably should have apologized right away, but whatever. It’s election time and he’s a politician trying to look tough for the netroots now. (“I apologize to no one.”)

I’d even give him credit if he had meant it the way it sounded and apologized for the smear as quickly as possible.

But to blame it on people who heard what they heard? Even uncut and in context
, reasonable people on both the right and the left have interpreted it for how it sounded. In fact, some on the left have cheered it as truth telling- not the botched joke, but the actual words as they were ‘misinterpreted.’

He told two jokes. Then he stopped joking and thanked the crowd and said he’s glad to be there. Then he redirected to why they are there. (“We’re here to talk about education.”) Then he makes a joke that reasonable people might think is unrelated to the first two jokes. Not even the people in the audience seemed too sure about that one- their response is much different than the first two. Some laughed, some gasped.

He made a statement, whether a botched joke or not, that many on the left would argue is true- that people who join the military are the people who can’t do anything else (not getting an education being one those reasons.) It’s the Charlie Rangel theory of why we need a draft. Whether he intended it or not, that’s how it came out.

It’s not about distorting a quote. Nobody distorted what he said. They just played the tape. It’s very clear what he said- in context. Now he has apologized, and we’ll have to hear about it on the Sunday shows instead of real issues. Sorry Oliver- but you know damn well this will still be a fairly big topic on those shows because they haven’t had the chance to talk about it. George S. and Tim R. haven’t had the chance to label it as a “firestorm” yet. Schieffer will probably use it as an excuse to bash Republicans in his final word.

Republicans should be talking about the growing economy and the contrast between Democrats and Republicans in plans for national security and GOTV, and we’re talking about John Freakin’ Kerry. Everybody on both sides of the spectrum know’s Kerry is an idiot- no matter how many votes he got for President.(“I was voted for the 87 million before I voted against it.”) Kerry is at best an also-ran in the 2008 Democratic primary. Though deep down inside, I hope he wins the nomination. That would ensure a Republican President for at least another four years.

Bush: Anybody who is in a position to serve this country ought to understand the consequences of words, and our troops deserve the full support of people in government… what I don’t understand is any diminution of their sacrifice.

Pedro: I will also say any republican that doesn’t let it drop now is beating a dead horse.

So when can we expect you to issue the statement then Pedro?

Har.

Oh, and did I mention that what Kerry was trying to say was, George Bush’s ignorance got us stuck in Iraq?

It’s no surprise that the party of Iraq, Katrina, and 9/11 is worried about the coming election and has resorted to yet another attack on John Kerry to rile up the con base. What is surprising is how strong a response Sen Kerry has put out. I’m reproducing it in full, because if he had been this tough in ’04 he would have won.

And Pedro responded:

I agree a strong response to something like that would be appropriate…if you were RIGHT!

Kerry basically said that it is only the drop-outs who go to war…what a load of bullsh*t.

But, pedro, Oliver was right and you were wrong — Kerry had mispoken, he announced this to the press and the right wing continued to attack him. But now you want us to believe that a strong response was wrong and that Kerry should have immediately apologized for a meaning he never intended.

You really are a jackass.