Are arguing that you are simply playing Devil’s advocate when you insist that no lies can be proven, but that such a position shouldn’t be construed as arguing that Bush has never lied?

I can’t recall a single instance of you ever taking this administration to task for its dishonesty. As I recall, you even tried to hold up the “no proven lies” defense when Bush claimed his administration had never been “stay the course.”

I’ll tell you what, I’ll support your contention that you don’t think Bush never lied if you can provide an example of when you think he did (supported by evidence, naturally, and not a generalization about humanity’s inherent flaws).

If so, then how is it that this administration so routinely gets away with blaming them for its failures in Iraq? Who blamed the troops for Abu Ghraib, or Haditha? What about the failure to secure the HMX explosives back in 2004? Even something as ridiculous as taking responsibility for the laughably premature “Mission Accomplished” banner was blamed on the troops (though in that case it was blown off as over enthusiasm and not the work of “a few bad apples”).

As for why the military supported Bush over Kerry, I would imagine that inherently authoritarian groups like the military tend to favor Republicans. Heap onto that the persistent meme that Dems are weak on defense and the swift boating of Kerry, and it is even less of a surprise. When a huge proportion of the troops still believe that Iraq had a hand in 9/11 and that Saddam had ties to al-Qaeda, you have to accept the fact that reality may not be enough to sway votes. Still, you have to be encouraged by the rising number of troops that think we should “cut and run” (72%).

You accuse me of a position I have never taken. I suspect and believe in all probablity Bush has lied. He’s mortal and flawed – as weall are. I take issue with progressives citing Bush as a proven liar and catagorizing certain things as proven lies when they are merely their own (biased) opinions.

So if you accuse me of peddling, at least get it right as to what I’m peddling.

That bubble was burst way back in this very thread when I printed the full quotes you butchered earlier.

Nothing was butchered. Kerry believed everything he was relaying during his testimony. Or are you going to argue that Kerry was passing along testimony that he didn’t believe was accurate?

That, of course, requires ignoring your consistent Kerry bashing and use of words like “malign” and “insult” to frame his relationship with the troops

Yes, I bash Kerry. I admitted that a long time ago. It’s possible to bash a person because you find them consistently insulting without also thinking that person is doing it out of hatefulness.

There’s a reason why the military preferred Bush (with all his inconsistent military baggage) over Kerry (a decorated Vietnam vet) by a much larger margin than any other demographic group. Either we really are stupid, or we can tell when someone repeatedly insults us.

JWG, you have never demonstrated that Kerry has a habit of insulting the troops. That bubble was burst way back in this very thread when I printed the full quotes you butchered earlier.

Much like the “Bush never lied” fiction peddled by Dugger, you seem intent on clinging to the idea that since you never actually used the word “hate” regarding Kerry’s opinion of the troops it is unreasonable to characterize your opinion of him in such a manner. That, of course, requires ignoring your consistent Kerry bashing and use of words like “malign” and “insult” to frame his relationship with the troops, not to mention your hacked quotes and insistence that Kerry thinks the troops are murderers, terrorists, and uneducated dolts.

Pedro leans on the same crutch when he rails that he never said liberals couldn’t comment on the war if they never served, yet he can’t help but raise his service as some sort of evidence of his keen insight in virtually every thread he comments in. All while making it clear that lefties just don’t know what they are talking about because they never joined up, of course. Oh, and it goes without saying that when he comments on the troops it’s out of deep reverence and respect, but lefties only use them as a “political cudgel.”

Now THAT’S funny.

Oh and so to last bit, it’s clear that you wanted to put words in my mouth just like you did with Kerry.

But I didn’t, did I? Since I didn’t have any information available about your views on the military, I asked and waited for your comment (and I did wait a long time…I had to ask several times). Suspecting and declaring are different, but I know that you have problems with English so I’m not surprised at your confusion.

As for Kerry, I used HIS words. As I demonstrated, he’s made a habit of insulting the troops and going back later to re-explain what he really meant.

If having command of English grammar and sentence structure and using a person’s actual words makes me an idiot in your eyes, then so be it.

That Kerry is repeating the same mistake he made 30 years ago when he testified to the Senate about Vietnam. He maligned the troops and then later tried to claim he was really criticizing the administration…only his actual words were very clear…as they are now.

In other words, if you truly respect the military, it’s impossible to call them losers without realizing you misspoke and correcting it right away. Why couldn’t he just explain he misspoke and apologize?

And how many people on this very blog have argued the point Kerry made? Since frameone is the arbiter of honesty, I await his disagreement with the argument that the military is full of intellectual losers.

I’m sure I’ll be waiting for a long time.

I don’t see you asserting any of that as merely your humble opinion. Oh and so to last bit, it’s clear that you wanted to put words in my mouth just like you did with Kerry.

You really are an idiot.

And here come the anecdotes … Some liberal once made you feel bad and now it’s “typical” of liberals in general? Grow the fuck up. I have lots of anecdotes about liberals who have nothing but the highest respect for those who serve and who recognize the great social value of the military as an institution of economic, educational and self improvement.

BTW, did you even see Farenheit 9-11, JWG? Can you tell me the scenes in the movie that support your claim about Michael Moore’s take on the military?

And as to your continued qualifications of what you say you really meant to say, I’ve decided to apply the Kerry Standard to your comments. Simply reading what you wrote:

He just thinks the majority are uneducated hicks without the ability or opportunity to do anything better with their lives. That’s a typical leftist viewpoint.

It’s clear that you were asserting something factual about Kerry’s beliefs and the beliefs of all liberals. Now you if you have any evidence to back up this assertion, please present it. Otherwise, shut the fuck up.

You said “He thinks …”

At this point I’m hoping you’re being stupid on purpose, but in case you’re not I’ll try one more time to bring you above your second grade reading level.

Since I started the first sentence with “I don’t think…” it makes perfect sense for the reader to mentally ask, “Then what DO you think?” Therefore, the next statement logically answers that question which means it’s redundant to restate “I think”. Now, if you want to write “I think” before each opinionated sentence you write, go for it. But standard English dictates that within a paragraph each sentence should logically be connected to the preceding sentences.

I can supply you with my numerous teaching credentials if that will help you stop embarrassing yourself with your remedial reading problems.

Well considering US troops dumb or tricked is not characteristic of liberals as a group. You’re fucking idiot for suggesting that it is.

And you’re a fucking idiot for claiming it’s not. I’ve dealt with the comments all my life first growing up as an Army brat, then in college after I served myself (when people didn’t know my past), as a teacher hearing other teachers make these types of comments, and reading comments about the kinds of people who join the military during the Michael Moore F9/11 hype.

As I said, I’m glad you don’t fall into that group, but it oozes throughout the Left. “Typical” is a good word choice.

And yet a comments on some othe rblog or website are representative of “typical” liberals. Geez, JWG, what a typical idiot.

Really? What style guide do you use? You said “He thinks …” There is no reason for me accept your explanations after the fact just as you have clearly dismissed Kerry’s explanations after the fact. Your words are clear: “He thinks …”

Which brings us to the larger point. If you were just stating your opinion about what Kerry really thinks, on what grounds are basing that opinion?

Kerry had totally repudiated the thinking you ascribed to him and typical leftists? I agtehr you are using previous statements of his.

But wait, when else has Kerry ever said anything to even remotely suggest that he believes what you say he believes?

And don’t give me that “‘Typical’ has never meant ‘all’” bullshit. That’s a pretty smarmy fucking out, JWG. Typical means “(exhibiting the qualities or characteristics that identify a group or kind or category).” Well considering US troops dumb or tricked is not characteristic of liberals as a group. You’re fucking idiot for suggesting that it is.

Isn’t this what the John Kerry mock-controversy all about? That you people won’t apply John Kerry’s views, only your imaginary stereotypes of his views?

Jackass.

It isn’t obvious at all. You wrote “He thinks …” Not
“I think he thinks.”

A person doesn’t have to keep writing “I think” before EACH sentence in a paragraph that continues the point of the first sentence. It’s that “reading comprehension” thing again.

Which is to take your first words literally

Yes, because the paragraph is constructed properly according to standard English protocol.

point to some other liberals and hold them out as representative of all liberal thought

You have a serious problem understanding English. Is it your first language? “Typical” has never meant “all”. As factcheck found out, that whole strawman concept keeps getting applied by you and others. Apply what *I* write to my views rather than your imaginary stereotypes.

BTW, I’m glad to learn that you don’t follow the Michael Moore school of thought when it comes to who joins the military.

It isn’t obvious at all. You wrote “He thinks …” Not
“I think he thinks.”

Now there are a couple of questions at hand. Should I hold you to the same standard that you are holding Kerry? Which is to take your first words literally regardless of any subsequent clarification or should I accept your clarification and move on? I don’t know, JWG, what do you think I should do?

It’s also a nice dodge to point to some other liberals and hold them out as representative of all liberal thought (you have afterall made a universal claim) especially when you have liberals here at this site, such as myself, who hold no such view of the people who join the military.

I think it’s telling that after my answer to your ridiculous question you chose this tactic.

The facts of the military’s social function as a source of education, training and career advancement for people who might not otherwise get those options/opportunities is self-evident. So to is the fact that people do indeed join the military because it represents the best viable option for a better life for themselves and their families.

Anytime you dispute this fact, you just let me know.

No where do I see you saying “I think”

I started the statement by saying “I don’t think he hates the troops.” That is my OPINION (hence the use of “I…think”). What followed was obviously also my opinion since I was still talking about Kerry’s mindset, continuing the original thought.

It’s patently dishonest to distort this fact by suggesting that liberals believe only dumb people join the military.

Now if you want me to turn the comment about liberals into an evidence based fact, just say the word and I’ll point you to any number of liberal sites discussing the uneducated troops. In fact, I’ll show you a whole bunch of liberal sites claiming Kerry spoke the truth the first time he spoke.

Tricked doesn’t enter into it does it because not even an idiot such as yourself could claim Kerry said people are tricked into joining the military.

At the same time, JWG, there are indeed people who join the military out of economic necessity. I’m sure some people join the military because it represents the best possibility of a career in an otherwise impoverished area or else it represents the chance to pay for their college education so that they could then go get a better job when they get out. All of them probably join because they want to serve their country, as well. But how many of them do it purely for that reason?

The Army even advertises itself as a stepping stone to a better life: Join the Army to pay for college while learning the life skills and discipline you need to succeed. Have you ever seen one of those ads in which a guy in a business suit thinks back to the day he helped set up a radio listening post or whatever on the top of a mountain and then tells his boss, “Ya, I can handle it.” You get the gist.

Don’t pretend that the army is not the first best option for some people because of their education or previous job skills. Because in some number of cases I’m sure it is. And as such the armed forces have always served as more than simply a way to defend the nation. They also serve a valuable social function by providing opportunities to people who might not otherwise be able to avail themselves of a college education or a career instead of just a job.

The Armed Forces are the best option for financial, education and career enhancement/advancement for many people. That’s a simple fact.

It’s patently dishonest to distort this fact by suggesting that liberals believe only dumb people join the military.

No you didn’t. You wrote:

I don’t think he hates the troops. He just thinks the majority are uneducated hicks without the ability or opportunity to do anything better with their lives. That’s a typical leftist viewpoint.

No where do I see you saying “I think” or “My opinion is.” I do, however, see you making at least two declarative statements of fact re: what Kerry and liberals think.

Keep dodging.

logical fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position

Yep…how many times have you claimed I am a republican? How many times have you said I claimed Kerry hates the troops? How many times have I been told I think Bush is great or a hero?

do YOU know what a strawman is

Yep…I have been arguing about whether Kerry, who is a prominent liberal, thinks the military is where the uneducated masses go. Asking if that is a common belief among liberals, or more specifically a belief of yours, is NOT a strawman.

Since both of you have repeatedly refused to answer it (earlier in the thread and now), I am starting to think that it is an accurate belief. If it is not accurate, let me know by answering the question.