The geniuses over at Red State try to prop up ABC’s anti-Clinton propaganda film and in the course of doing so make a salient point:
But at the end, nearly 3,000 people still die. That’s one scene the liberals will never be able to rewrite.
Yes, 3,000 people died on 9/11. Innocent people killed on a September morning five years ago. The architects of their murders remains on the loose, their hateful ideology now propelled to a major force in the world. Yes, 3,000 people died on the watch of an American president who hasn’t avenged their deaths.
His name is George W. Bush.
President Bush demonstrates the Republican strategy on defeating terrorism and securing America.
Yeah on the watch of Pres. Bush. but they came into the country on the watch of BJ Clinton, learned to fly planes under his nose and with the help of Jamie Garelick it was all kept quiet.
If BJ nailed Osama instead of Monica all this would be a mute point
“BJ Clinton”
Art must be “serious” about terrorism.
Art, that’s Jamie Gorelick, not Garelick and a moot point, not a mute one.
Nothing Gorelick did kept intelligence about bin Laden quiet and Clinton did, in fact make several attempts to, um, “nail” him.
It was NOT Mr. Clinton, however who daydreamed through the August 6, 2001 Presidential Daily Briefing before he went back to “clearing brush,” and it was NOT Mr. Clinton who now says he “just doesn’t think about” bin Laden all that much.
Did I miss anything?
So it’s the thought that counts, eh? The way you guys are screaming about this, you’d think Clinton actually caught Bin Laden and then Bush set him free.
Why is so much attention focused on one brief? Let’s be real, Bush was given several briefs outlining the danger, all of which he failed to understand or take seriously. The Aug 6 PDB was Al Qaeda 101 aimed at am administration that had no clue.
Even if ABC deletes the controversial “composite” scene blending a commando force on the ground in Afghanistan and bickering Clinton officials, the rest of the film would be equally damaging to Clinton’s “I never worked harder in my life than I did trying to get Osama” legacy, because it portrays the disarray and confusion within the administration over whether or not they could legally apprehend and try a foreign national with only a circumstantial case for conspiracy.
That is, if the Democrat brownshirts don’t get their way and have the miniseries pulled off the air entirely. But if that happens, my guess is that most people will be left thinking, “what were they trying to hide,” instead of “boy, Karl Rove has ABC eating out of the palm of his hand.”
One other thing, ABC premiered this film to BOTH Republicans and Democrats. It was Democrat Richard Ben Veniste who threw the first hissy fit over the film. Conservatives promoted the film because it supports many of the things that they have been saying about the Clinton administration. ABC officials were stunned at the vitriolic reaction of the Democrats, citing in their defense that they had been extremely careful with the content that they included in the film.
If anyone has EVIDENCE (not hysterical conspiracy theories from Daily Kos) that Karl Rove personally supervised the film or that Rove, Bush, and the RNC marketed the film for ABC, then I’d like to see it.
It must be harvest time because Mike is laying straw!
Reading makes a what kind of gift?
Wow, the fact that Scholastic pulled the propaganda for the kiddies combined with the alterations in the scenes seems to have driven Mike into a frothing lather. Pull up a chair and enjoy the hysteria!
The architects of their murders remains on the loose
You have a bad memory or its something else.
To whit:
Osama bin Laden may still be at large, but the man captured in Pakistan last Saturday was even more important than bin Laden in the planning and execution of the Sept. 11 attacks.
Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was apprehended in his pajamas just before dawn in a suburban home near the Pakistani capital of Islamabad. American authorities will have many questions for him because as, Bob Simon first reported last fall on 60 Minutes II, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was not only the mastermind of 9/11, but America’s most lethal enemy for more than a decade.
Stop being stupid on purpose.
“Stop being stupid on purpose” says the pot.
Good post Jay.
Says the sock puppet.
Ah yes, Khalid. Was he the first “Number #2 guy in Al Qaeda who’s death/capture has dealt a crippling blow to the terrorist organization” or the second “Number #2 guy in Al Qaeda who’s death/capture has dealt a crippling blow to the terrorist organization”? Hm… I do know that we’re up to around the tenth “Number #2 guy in Al Qaeda who’s death/capture has dealt a crippling blow to the terrorist organization” caught this weekend, and yet it seems Al Qaeda in fact seems to be getting new members, has a stronger presence in Iraq and doesnt look (to my oh so very unserious eyes) as though theyre likely to fizzle out any time soon.
Of course though the fact that the organizations most prominent and (to his people) charismatic leader remains on the loose has nothing to do with the continued cohesion of Al Qaeda, so we shouldnt even be concerned with finding him, eliminating him, and seeing the organization scramble with the vacuum of leadership, making the terrorist cells all the more easier to neutralize. Excellent point, sir.
This is wrong, of course, but you cant be blamed for not being honest enough to admit to it. Richard Ben-Vineste first raised complaints not because he are teh librul an teh librul are teh whiny baby hurhur, but because he was actually, you know, ON the 9/11 commission that the film claims to be based on. Also of course conservatives are coming out against the film for its biased interpretation of scenes, and then again there was that FBI consultant who quit out of conscience when they started “making things up”, and of course there was also the ABC insider who wanted to assure the Wingers that the broadcasted movie will still focus on blaming Clinton over Bush, but yeah, all these people, republican and democrat alike, are only complaining because they have a liberal axe to grind, dont want to admit that Clinton was too busy getting laid to fight bin Laden, and also that he probably killed that guy, robbed a bank, and raped your mother. Also we’re gay communists.
Good post, sir.
Why thank you, I do try.
Yes, I must have missed the part where we caught Bin Laden (you know, the guy responsible for 9/11? I know Bush doesn’t “think about him much” but some of us would like to see him captured and killed).
Dems are missing a golden opportunity to spin here. The scene in question, from what I hear, shows a White House that can’t be bothered with fighting terrorism because they’re embroilled in the Lewinsky controversy. Had Dems had half a clue, instead of pitching a hissy and threatening ABC with revoking their broadcasting license, they should have come out and said “See, Ken Starr really IS the devil. It’s HIS fault we didn’t catch Osama.”
Instead, the message is reinforced to the voting public: Democrats will do anything and everything to protect their own image. The country? Not so much…
…you’re saying that if the Democrats had half a clue they’d use a fictional scene placing the blame on them… to draw attention to what the world at large views as an unnecessary witch-hunt, giving it undeserved attention some eight years later? Did you actually just say that?
And that by opposing the airing of a scene that fictionalizes a national tragedy for the purpose of blaming Clinton, the democrats have proven the basic point that the film suggests, that they are more concerned with public image than protecting the country… you… you actually just said that aloud?
Okay, lets try this then. Your mother’s a whore who takes it hard up the ass for a nickel. If you deny it, that means youre more concerned with denying the objective fact of your mothers whoredom than addressing the salient issue of the post. Do you agree?
Oliver, this is what you wrote:
The architects of their murders remains on the loose
Now, I don’t feel I need to have to give you a lesson in grammar, but when you add an ‘S’ after something like truck or bike, the word becomes PLURAL.
Therefore, when you say ARCHITECTS, you’re talking about more than one person are you not?
As such, it is incorrect for you to say the ‘architects’ of the attack are “on the loose” because Khalid Shaikh Mohammed has been caught.
Thanks for playing.
“but some of us would like to see him captured and killed).’
Not only that, you guys seem to know where he is. Maybe you could send out some sort of Hippie Hit Squad to beat him to death with Birkenstocks or drown him in lattes. Or worse, make him watch Yentl over and over.
Uhh, scratch that last one. Durbin’ll call you a Nazi.
Careful semantic parsing for the motherfucking win in this piece!
Still radio silence among our liberal commenters over the Democrat’s obvious attempt at censorship by issuing a veiled threat to pull ABC’s broadcast license unless the film is edited to their liking. Veeerrry interesting …
Rex, why don’t you link directly to what conservatives are saying, instead of liberal blog digests? Norman Podhoretz has a good piece today in the NY Post that chastises ABC for fictionalizing portions of the film. But you may not like his conclusion, even though it is probably the most fair assessment of the failures of the 1990’s that I have read to date:
“So it’s the thought that counts, eh?”
Um, Save, at least Clinton was thinking about bin Liden, unlike, apparently Bush:
“So I don’t know where he is. You know, I just don’t spend that much time on him, Kelly, to be honest with you.”
So ya, the thought counts, idiot.
“I believe that the Bush administration will spend more time on terrorism generally, and on al-Qaeda specifically, than any other subject.” Sandy Berger to Condoleeza Rice, January 3, 2001.
Gotta tell you, sounds kinda like they comprehended the threat to me.
Oh, and if we’re going with specific semantic parsing to declare victory in straw-guments, Dugger, I submit that you cannot find anywhere where Dick Durbin called a Nazi, which is to say did not say “John Doe is a Nazi” for whosoever, and therefore your glib comment is unfounded, and you are wrong about everything. Hooray me!
I say air the film.
The very next day instead of “The Reagans”, ABC should re-air the Iran Contra hearings, (post-Tower Commission only).
No distortion of a terror record there now, is there?
the Democrat’s obvious attempt at censorship by issuing a veiled threat to pull ABC’s broadcast license unless the film is edited to their liking.
Mr. Avarosis’ interpretation notwithstanding, this is baloney.
No threat, veiled or otherwise. The letter made an argument that the network has the responsibility to serve the broader public, not just the RNC.
I would settle for ABC including, commercial-free, the entire 5-minute video of preznit bush sitting in that classroom demonstrating Republican leadership after learning of the second plane hitting the south tower. Did his memory of some obscure meeting over a brief in Crawford pop into his mind while he waited for his handlers to do something? Would the WH have confiscated that videotape had they possessed the presence of mind?
hey Rex,
I freely admit and have never claimed that Durbin called a specific individual a Nazi.
A left and right to the head! The straw man is down! He won’t be getting up from this pummeling.
“If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime–Pol Pot or others–that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.”
I am perfectly happy with this renditon of Durbin’s quote. And it means to me that he thinks American troops behaved (not ‘might’ have behaved as he later backtracked) like Nazis.
No. Durbin knew very well that accusing American troops of behaving like Nazis would resonate well with the far left constituency that has come to dominate the party. How ironic that it is the valorous sacrifice of American soldiers that makes it possible for Durbin to make his sh*tty remarks.
Wow Mike, if Clinton didn’t take terrorism seriously, Bush and his cronies must have been wearing clown costumes.
Dugger seems perfectly fine associating sodomizing prisoners with glow sticks with the American military.
I am perfectly happy with this renditon of Durbin’s quote. And it means to me that he thinks American troops behaved (not ‘might’ have behaved as he later backtracked) like Nazis.
They weren’t behaving like Americans. I believe THAT was Mr. Durbin’s point?
“How ironic that it is the valorous sacrifice of American soldiers that makes it possible for Durbin to make his sh*tty remarks.”
Sorry dipshit, not so fast. It was the disgusting, unAmerican behavior of some US troops who abused prisoners in their custody that made it possible for Durbin to make his remarks. He wasn’t talking about US soldiers who were doing their jobs, he was talking about US soldiers who were, at the behest of their commanders, violating the faith, trust and honor of the uniform by abusing and torturing prisoners. That is not the kind of behavior thayt preserves our freedom, it is the kind of behavior that outs us at greater risk as it feeds the propaganda machines of the terrorists and stokes greater resentment and anger.
*cracks knuckles for the semantic twist to follow*
Okay captain clever, good of you to admit that Durbin never claimed a specific person was a nazi, even though you suggested it is the sort of thing that he would do (”Durbin’ll call you a Nazi”), however by stating that he was “accusing American troops of behaving like Nazis” when he has not in fact even equated any person of group of people to the Nazis, nor did he say “The American troops have behaved like the Nazi’s, in my view” or any other such extrapolation or corrolary of that statement.
What he said was, and I believe this is the case broadly, after describing people chained to floors in a fetal position for days, made to crap on themselves, another left in a burning hot room with blaring rap music for days, left to rip his hair out, that the average American, hearing of these actions out of context would likely believe that these actions were committed by a group of people that “had no concern for human beings” and to illustrate that point, he compares such groups of people to the Nazis, the Soviets, etc.
He did not say “The troops are Nazi’s beacuse theyve done this” and it is intellectually dishonest to interpret the statement that way.
He did not say “The actions of the troops are like unto those of the Nazi’s” and it is intellectually dishonest to interpret the statement that way.
He did say (inarticulatly, I’ll admit) that such actions, to the common man, connote inhumanity. A point with which I agree. He accused the troops of nothing. Not. One. Thing. Any association between the troops and Nazis is therefore, funny enough, in your own mind, and the strawman that just went down? the one you just so valiantly defeated? Was your own. Congratulations.
*does victory lap*
Pretty good, Dugger, coming from the guy who likes to compare American “leftists” with Stalin.
C’mon Dugger, to imply that Durbin called our troops Nazi’s is way off the mark.
What he was implying, and what any good American should be saying right now concerning Bush’s attempts to make torture acceptable practice, is that we are better than that. We are the good guys. We are the people with civilized principles who the fence sitters in the Muslim world should want to emulate. It’s barbaric, unhelpful, and something he rightfully tried to put an immediate stop to by shaming anyone involved. Unless of course they want to be in the same class as the Nazis when it comes to torture.
The only problem I had with Durbin is that the crybaby weepingly apologized when the right wing noise machine went into attack mode, when he should have stuck his finger in Donald Rumsfeld’s chest and pushed him on his ass for soiling our once good name.
In typical fashion there is no “BC” (before Clinton) when it comes to the right and what Clinton is responsible for concerning messes they made. Osama bin Laden was a CIA asset for Reagan, and he and the resistance in Afghanistan were abandoned by Bush’s father. Sure, Clinton could have done more, but at many turns he was stopped in his tracks by the Republican resistance here at home.
Please enlighten us, Dugger, with a single thing Bush did to address terrorism after being told who attacked the Cole during Clinton’s lame duck period, after being warned by Burger and Clarke as previously noted, and the 50+ other warnings (many from world leaders) Bush got in the summer of 2001? Just one single thing, please!
Here’s a thought, if only someone slipped salt peter in to bin Laden’s old man’s food before the night of conception the whole thing could have been avoided. That’s the bastard who should be twisting in the wind.
Quaker said,
“They weren’t behaving like Americans. I believe THAT was Mr. Durbin’s point?”
Really? There must be a million groups in the US: Mormons, dentists, dog trainers, appraisers, fishermen, etc. Yet out of these millions of groups, the only groups Durbin specifically mentions are the two worst in human history: both mass murderers of unbelievable magnitude. Groups that murdered millions and millions of innocents. Thats how Durbin makes the point, as you see it, that they weren’t behaving like Americans???
Durbin knows a sizeable segment of the far left hates soldiers and equates American soldiers with Nazis. He knows the radical left is gaining ascendancy within the Democratic Party. How better to curry favor and look hip and happening to these crazies than using Nazi descriptors for US troops.
And as I said before, the pictures I’ve seen of the conscentration camp victims and of Stalin’s victims, did not show any that look like they had gained weight. But maybe Durbin has seen a different history of the Holocaust – one in which the camp internees put on pounds.
And Rex, pardon me, but bullsh*t. At the end Durbin says: “This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.” No caveats. No buts.
The ‘this’ he refers to is the actions of American troops which he had already indicated people would think was the action of Nazis etc. It was inarticulate to be sure, but it was also the gross smearing of US troops with a Nazi descriptor.
“Durbin knows a sizeable segment of the far left hates soldiers and equates American soldiers with Nazis.”
Uh oh, the army of straw people rise from the dead yet again. Can you actually name a single fucking person of any relevance whatsoever on the left who has ever said this? Please? Pundit? Politician? PAC? Anyone? Not even the dreaded wicked evil nefarious Two-People-Who-Submitted-Commercials-To-That-MoveOn.org-Contest equated the soldiers to Nazis, and Durbin, again, didnt either, which you seem to acknowledge in your post but dont realize it. Durbin saying “Nazi’s didnt do this, American Soldiers did,” while inarticulate, is not the same as saying “Me fink de soljyurs are Nazis” by seven and one-half longshots. Even youre not dense enough to confuse the two.
On the other hand of course, Rumsfield saying that critics of the Iraq War want to appease the terrorists, which he then likened to appeasing the Nazis, well that there is actually him comparing what turns out to be a majority of Americans to Nazi Sympathizers.
“There must be a million groups in the US: Mormons, dentists, dog trainers, appraisers, fishermen, etc. Yet out of these millions of groups, the only groups Durbin specifically mentions are the two worst in human history …”
Um, are you suggesting that these groups aren’t American?
Dugger: Sometimes, an extreme comparison has to be made to drive home how horrible something is. The fact is that torture is illegal (Geneva Conventions), unconstitutional (5th* and 8th** amendments), and immoral.
And unlike what Bush may have said, we have been torturing.
*It attempts to compel someone to testify against himself.
**Cruel and unusual punishment.
Dugger supports torture. That’s realy why he’s so offended.
“Durbin knows a sizeable segment of the far left hates soldiers and equates American soldiers with Nazis.”
Durbin knows? Where’s the Dugger who keeps telling us we can’t know the intentions…blablabla?
There must be a million groups in the US: Mormons, dentists, dog trainers, appraisers, fishermen, etc. Yet out of these millions of groups, the only groups Durbin specifically mentions are the two worst in human history:
If your dentist treats you that way, you should find a new one.
“If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by dentists or Mormons, or dog trainers that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.”
Well, OK. I guess Durbin could have taken that route.
I’m suggesting that Dickie-baby Durbin saw a report via the FBI and then jumped to using words like Nazi to describe the actions of our troops at Gitmo. He read the report and said this is what they did. Act like Nazis. Nazis: murderers of millions. Vile anti-semites. Only communists are worse. And you people say you support the troops. Were they not entitled to some benefit of doubt before being compared to Nazis?
We are supposed to understand Durbin was over wrought? Why in the hell can’t he understand that those troops jobs are a whole hell of a lot harder than his. Why Nazis? Why not something less evil?.
“Were they not entitled to some benefit of doubt before being compared to Nazis?”
Dugger, the Nazis and Stalinists murdered millions of people. But they also tortured and abused prisoners as well. If you torture and abuse prisoners, you risk the comparison.
Hey, Dugs, can you think of a “less evil” group of people who torture and abuse prisoners as a matter of policy? How about “Islamofascists”?
Oh, oops.
but dugger, again I have to tell you, as his statement shows, HE SAID NO SUCH FUCKING THING YOU STUPID STUPID STUPID BASTARD! What he said was that people can see a similar inhumanity in those actions that they might see in the Nazis, the Soviets, et al. For chrissake stop putting words ni his goddam mouth. Again, yes, that was not the best way to say what he said but that doesnt change the fact of what he said. He didns say they acted like Nazis, like you say he did. Please stop Lying. Please stop saying he said things that he very clearly didnt just so you can keep attacking him. Please stop pretending that something he didnt say is somehow indicitive of the broad opinion of a relevant faction of the democratic party. Please stop coming up with non sequitor questions about nonexistant defenses for something he did not, in fact, accuse the troops of. And please, please, please, go fuck yourself in the mouth.
How classy of you Rex. When you lose it you go cheap and dirty.
And Durbin did use a Nazi adjective to describe the actions of US troops in charge of prisoners who were gaining weight. No amount on nastiness on your part changes Durbin’s remarks.
“No amount on nastiness on your part changes Durbin’s remarks.”
And no amount of bullshit on your part changes the fact that the FBI reported that prisoners were being abused and tortured at Guantanamo.
Why Nazis? Why not something less evil?.
OK, I’m open to suggestions.
Who else chains people to the floor in freezing cold or stiflingly hot rooms and leaves them there for days at a time to crap themselves?
Anybody else he might have picked?
I think what we’ve all learned today is that torture by US soldiers in a US prison camp is less important than the metaphor a Democratic politician uses to condemn it.
We can also infer that if the politician belongs to the Republican party the equation is exactly reversed.
Albanians? Swedes maybe?
Let’s give it a try, shall we?
I don’t think that really works, do you? I mean, I don’t think most people would hear that and think, “Why that sounds like something Albanians would do. Not Americans!”
How ’bout a little less hate and doubt. Someone who supports our men and women in uniform might have said:
“I read this to you. It needs to be discussed. And it sounds bad, but it is just one report, and I have not confirmed if its true, something based on isolated circumstances or just untrue. Its not like our men and women in uniform to behave this way. And I am aware there have been numerous false charges emanating from Gitmo and that the enemy employs, as a standing tactic, the promulgation of false charges. Nevertheless, the charges need to be incvestigated, if nothing else to clear our men and women in uniform. We all owe them all great big thanks. And I hope this is not true.”
No, much better to toss around Nazi and communist when describing US troops. It resonates with the haters.
Yeah, that treats the situation with the gravity it deserves.
It’s been said before, but since you genuinely do constantly lump people whose politics lean toward the position known as “Left” with Josef Djugashvili, you have no case whatsoever.
I think when Dugger plays army he captures the neighborhood pets and reenacts his own version of Abu Ghraib. If it’s good enough for prisoners in American control, it’s good enough for Mrs Petrolonski’s cat Fluffy.
Dugger thinks …
“That’s weird, my friends and family always agree with me. Why don’t OW’s posters just fall in behind me …?”
Nevertheless, the charges need to be incvestigated, if nothing else to clear our men and women in uniform.
Dugger, the charges were investigated. Durbin was reading the FBI investigation report!
Just because the investigation proved conclusive, it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t give the benefit of the doubt to our Brave Men And Women In Uniform™.
Quaker, Please it was one report from the FBI. ANd the report sure as h*ll did not say Nazi. And furthermore, that was a report that had not been vetted as true, and may have been per allegations of the terrorists themselves. The whole point is not that something wrong may or may not have happened, but that even the charges certainly did not rise to anything approaching Nazism and for Durbin to use that language is a gross disservice to our men and women in uniform – risking their lives for loudmouth cheap politicains to say whatever panders to radical constituents. Yet Durbin looks at it and is tossing off N bombs at US troops.
What an A-1 jerk.
So Dugger has no outrage about some soldiers USING Nazi tactics, but someone SAYING stuff about them is treasonable.
What an A-1 jerk.
Dugger | Sep 11, 2006 7:42:22 AM
“… use that language is a gross disservice to our men and women in uniform – risking their lives for loudmouth cheap politicains to say whatever …”
Like The Decider’s “Bring ‘em on”?
How many times should I call goalposts, Dugger?
First, you suggested there were plenty of other groups he could have cited as valid comparisons. On closer inspection, we couldn’t find any.
Next, you said he should have deferred until the charges were investigated. Of course, he was reading from an FBI investigation report! But only one FBI investigation report!
Now your complaint seems to be that he used a naughty, naughty word.
Have you no outrage at all for the fact that this treatment of prisoners in our control took place? Is any behavior by any member of our armed forces out of bounds in your book?
Or is your outrage reserved for Democrats only?
Please it was one report from the FBI. ANd the report sure as h*ll did not say Nazi. And furthermore, that was a report that had not been vetted as true,
Yeah, those FBI agents are a bunch of lying, terrorist-loving Democrats, aren’t they?
And furthermore, that was a report that had not been vetted as true, and may have been per allegations of the terrorists themselves.
Yeah?
“Detainees at the U.S. military prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, were shackled to the floor in fetal positions for more than 24 hours at a time, left without food and water, and allowed to defecate on themselves, an FBI agent who said he witnessed such abuse reported in a memo to supervisors, according to documents released yesterday.
In memos over a two-year period that ended in August, FBI agents and officials also said that they witnessed the use of growling dogs at Guantanamo Bay to intimidate detainees — contrary to previous statements by senior Defense Department officials…”
Quaker, the more you go, the sillier you get. So your ‘torture’ at Gitmo, that which warrants Nazi comparisons, is inmates being threatened with dogs. Or fluctuating air condioning settings. Are you at all serious? The Nazis murdered 6 million innocent people. Whats the death toll for the terrorist held at Gitmo, Quaker? Care to guess?
This is stupid. The Nazis murdered 6 million. They also had cereal for breakfast. Per you and Durbin, its OK then to compare someone who has cereal at breakfst to Nazis?
No wonder the ADL was up[set at Durbins idiotic and insulting remarks. No wonder he weasel worded his apology when he saw what he had said.
Dugs,
There are some things that differentiate Nazis from non-Nazis. Practicing and supporting torture is one of them. Way to go dipshit, you come down squarely on the side of mass murderers.
bravo sierra, frame.
There are things that all humans have in common. Then there are things that diffrentiate between groups. For intance, Nazis are known as history’s second worst mass murderers and for being vilely anti-semitic.
In no way does the threatening of inmates with dogs compare with what the Nazis are most commonly associated with. In no way. Thats why the ADL and Democratic Mayor Daley were all over Durbin’s Nazi-accusing sorry butt.
Are you so blind you don’t understand the difference between murdering 6m and threatening an inmate with a dog? Are you that blind?
Dugger
Before the Nazis murdered 6 million people, Dugs, they set abused, tortured and executed without trial political prisoners and common criminals in much the same manner as we treated terrorists in Abu Graib and Gitmo. Torture is torture dugger and the minute you start practicing it you are on a road down which can only lead to corruption and evil. You support torture. You would take that first step to genocide, you encourage it. Again, congratulations, dipshit, you’re on the side of the Nazis.
So your ‘torture’ at Gitmo, that which warrants Nazi comparisons, is inmates being threatened with dogs. Or fluctuating air condioning settings. Are you at all serious? The Nazis murdered 6 million innocent people. Whats the death toll for the terrorist held at Gitmo, Quaker? Care to guess?
A man your age really shouldn’t be lugging those heavy goalposts around all over the place like that.
Now you’re arguing that the torture wasn’t really torture? Last post it was the torture was just made up by the detainees and wasn’t verified. And before that it was that some other group–not Nazis, no, no–would have made a more apt comparison.
All this because you won’t–you just can’t bring yourself to answer the question: If I read you the report and asked you who it sounded like, what would you guess?
Yeah, I know: Dentists.
Quakers!
No, no, frame. We’d make them sit silently and drink decaf green tea and say “thee” and “thou”.
No Quaker. First neither you nor anyone else has established torture at Gitmo and secondly, many countries, even democratic ones, have treated prisoners, harshy – even to the horrible extent of threatening them with barking dogs.
Scorecard: Nazis: 6,000,000 murdered. US at Gitmo: zero murdered, but barking dogs and fluctuating air conditoning.
Progressive ‘judgement’:
US at Gitmo = Nazis.
First neither you nor anyone else has established torture at Gitmo and secondly, many countries, even democratic ones, have treated prisoners, harshy – even to the horrible extent of threatening them with barking dogs
Still ducking the question? Tsk.
Back to the question at hand: The report–an eyewitness report from FBI agents–says that detainees were chained to the floor, left for 24 hours or more, subjected to extremes of heat and cold (yeah, I know, not within your definition of torture, but recently banned by the Pentagon), and intimidated with dogs (also recently banned by the Pentagon).
Why, Dugger, do you think the Pentagon has instructed American troops not to use these tactics?
And when you read about the use of these tactics, do you think, “That’s the American way!”?
I suppose Durbin could have said those tactics sounded like the political jailers working for Somoza or Pinochet.
But then, the right has made heroes out of those guys, so his point would have been lost anyway.
and fluctuating air conditoning.
Shame on you.
Nazi war crimes do not begin and end with the Holocaust, Dugger. You don’t have to kill someone to be inhumane.
Now answer Quaker’s question.
Ahh, Quaker. Do I think of barking dogs etc as the American way? Maybe not, but I sure as double d*mn all to h*ll and back don’t equate it to people who murdered 6M men women and children . As Nazis. You?
And that was the issue – was it not? The injection of ‘Nazi’. Not the possibility that the tactics were a little over the top and should be looked at. Remember my projected redo of the speech Durbs should have given: Expressing concern but calling for a look at the tactics – before passing judgment and tossing an N bomb at the troops.
Hey, nimmer, in a little while Quaker and I will want a drink. Make sure you have the water bucket ready. And, oh yeah, wipe the cyber sweat from Quakers forehead.
“… don’t equate it to people who murdered 6M men women and children.”
Yes Dugger, but do you equate it with people who used attack dogs to terrify
prisoners?
I guess you could say that making someone think they’re about to have their balls ripped off by a dog and actually letting go of the leash is now all that separates us from the Nazis. Awesome.
frame,
Answer my questions on your racism and I will consider responding.
…What?
Ahh, Quaker. Do I think of barking dogs etc as the American way? Maybe not, but I sure as double d*mn all to h*ll and back don’t equate it to people who murdered 6M men women and children . As Nazis. You?
Me?
I repeat the question you dare not answer:
If I read this to you, who would you guess did it?
Not Nazis? Fine.
Who?
Remember my projected redo of the speech Durbs should have given: Expressing concern but calling for a look at the tactics -
I do remember it.
If you bothered to read Durbin’s entire statement, you might find a lot of what you wish for.
“Answer my questions on your racism and I will consider responding.”
Ya, cuz I’m waiting with bated breath. Moron.
Honestly, you can type damn and hell and your head won’t fall off.
Dugger, Human rights abuses
” dare not answer it???
Oh, how dramatic. OK, who has ever threatened anybody with a barking dog? A farmer. Certainly a US policeman. Maybe a residential dweller in crime ridden neighborhood (beware of dog!). Some businesses keep dogs at night for security (meaner than a junk yard dog!). I imagine there are others.
There. I dared answer.
What happens now?
An airliner falls on me?
I get the Freedom Medal?
Am I a profile in ciourage?
Kinda anti-climactic, ain’t it.
And the problem you fail to acknowledge is Durbin could have expressed concern and could have called for an investigation without equating what the troops were doing to the actions of human history’s worst -very worst- offenders. Offenders who murdered millions and millions. Our troops murdered nobody. The prisoners gained weight. Nazis.
Jesus, Dugger, there’s a big difference between keeping a guard dog (with posted sign!) and pitting a snarling dog against a naked prisoner. Or are you that stupid? Oh wait…
There. I dared answer.
No, you didn’t.
Need the question again?
If I read this to you, who would you guess did it?
Don’t worry about it, Dugger. You’ve made it fully clear you won’t answer. Dentists. Albanians. Guard dog owners.
None are an answer to the question posed. They are evasions.
Maybe you need a little more to work with:
If your “residential dweller in a high-crime neighborhood” pulls that, he goes to prison.
Is that your final answer?
Take those one by one. Chained. he’s aprisoner, probably a violent prisoner. Chaining happens everyday to such prisoners in our legal system. They defcated on themselves – themselves. Left there for 18-24 hours. WHos ays? Did the e-mail writer watch thenm for 24 hours. Did the gurads say they were kept there 24 hours without potty breaks or water. I doubt it. Air conditoning up and down. So what. Pile of hair next to him. Gurads pull it out. I doubt it. It suggets to me that prisoner did it – hence the chains. And rap music.
Thats yourr Nazis, bubba!!
Now superimpose that over Dachau images and you know why the ADL was pissed at Durbin.
You ain’t getting no closer Quaker. Rap music, inconsistent air conditioning,
restraint of an obviously violent prisoner. Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind is Dachau.
Adn you ranlaogy is silly. These are gurads, not resdients in a neighborhood. it is legal for guards to restrain – noyt for you or I to retrain etc.
Oh, horrors, rap music and bad air conditioning. Impeach Bush!!!
Dugger | Sep 13, 2006 8:27:07 AM
aprisoner
defcated
Pile of hair next to him. Gurads pull it out.
WHos ays?
Thats yourr Nazis, bubba!!
Oh, horrors, rap music and bad air conditioning. Impeach Bush!!!
Uh, drinking and posting, Dugger?
“It suggets to me that prisoner did it”
You’ve made it clear, Dugger, that no other poster can conjecture — you always demand proof. Why, then, do you extend yourself the conjecturing possibility of “it suggests to me …”?
S
Maybe this is beyond you. You can conjecture and argue all you want, but if you are going to state something like “Bush lied” as fact – rather than conjecture, you will need hard proof and that proof has to take the meaning of words into account. And even if you theorize that he lied, it might be a good idea to make some sort of cohernet argument in your own behalf – rather than referrals to progressive hate sites.
And through it all, we have fluctuating air conditoning, threats with barking dogs, rap music and restraints of prisoners as being equivalent to the actions of those who committed the Holocaust.
That may add up for you, doesn’t for me.
And if you think it is wrong to mention the Holocaust, what more defines the Nazis? You know, the word progressive senator Durbin picked to describe the actions of US troops at Gitmo.
For a guy who supports torture you sure use a lot of euphemisms to defend it, Dugs. Do you not have the courage of your sadism?
Hey, all you defenders of the Nazi smear against US troops, go to the Holocaust Memorial and tell ‘em about the horrors of Gitmo: “they had to deal with Nazi’s too.”
Adn you ranlaogy is silly. These are gurads, not resdients in a neighborhood.
That’s your analogy, “Bubba”, not mine. See September 12, 5:53 p.m.
You ain’t getting no closer Quaker. Rap music, inconsistent air conditioning,
restraint of an obviously violent prisoner. Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind is Dachau.
Not anymore. Now the first thing that comes to mind is: American jailers at Guantanamo.
Makes you proud, don’t it?
Five times asked (in this thread alone), no answer:
“If I read this to you, who would you guess did it?”
Try for six.
I’m not sure what your question is. If I heard that (and I assumed it to all be true and I didn’t know some the extenuating circumstances) who would I think of? No one entity specifically. Harsher than usual jailers, I guess. Not Nazis. Not Dachau. Not Pol Pot. Not the killing fields.
And re Dachau you say “Not anymore”. Right? So prior to Gitmo, those things would have conjured up Dachau etc to you? Barking dogs, bad air conditioning = Dachau? Is that the equation? Hope not. When do you get serious and reject the Nazi comparison? It was inappropriate and you know it.
I’m not sure what your question is.
Haw!
Let me help: “If I read this to you, who would you guess did it?”
No one in particular? Very well.
There was once a time when no one would say, “That sounds like the way Americans treat prisoners.”
When do you get serious and reject the Nazi comparison? It was inappropriate and you know it.
There was no “Nazi comparison.” And we BOTH know that.
bad air conditioning
Again? Shame!
Not just “bad air conditioning,” Dugger. Prolonged, unescapable exposure to temperatures that can bring on hypothermia. Uncontrollable shaking. Loss of bowel and bladder control.
But nothing we should be ashamed of, right?
“Barking dogs, bad air conditioning = Dachau?”
Again, Dugs, you’re on record as supporting torture so why all the euphemisms and denial here? Why are you so afraid of calling it torture when you, in fact, support torture? Indeed, why, if you support torture, do you have such a problem with calling US troops who practice it torturers?
“There was no “Nazi comparison.” And we BOTH know that.”
Hmm.
‘If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime–Pol Pot or others–that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.”
I’m puzzled.
IE ‘what was done was comparable to what Nazis or Pol Pot etc did.’ Don’t see how you can escape the Nazi comparison. Do you mean he didn’t comapre them to Nazis as people but only their their deeds to Nazi deeds?
Same level of nastiness, idf so.
Yet again, Dugs, I can’t figure out why you’re so opposed to the Nazi comparison. If Durbin had simply referred to these soldiers as “torturers of the worst sort,” let’s say, on what grounds could you complain since you support torture? You’re real problem with this is that Durbin cast in a negative light torture practices that you support. God forbid anyone should associate torture or torturers with Nazis when torture is such a vital tool in the war on terror.
“‘If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by…”
…someone else. But not Americans. That’s not what we think of ourselves. It’s not what we expect to read about our military.
Let’s try setting this apart from you and me. Suppose you did a phone survey–before any of this came to light and before all the uproar over Durbin’s remarks.
The survey asks 1,000 people at random: “I’m going to describe to you a situation in which a prisoner in a military prison was abused. The prisoner was subjected to the following treatments: blah, blah, blah.”
“What country’s military do you think is most likely to treat a prisoner in this fashion?”
Is it your contention that few or none of the 1,000 respondents would guess any of the groups Durbin named?
How many of the 1,000 respondents do you think would guess: “That sounds like Americans to me”?
More or fewer than would have guessed Nazis?
“‘If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by…”
…someone else. But not Americans. That’s not what we think of ourselves. It’s not what we expect to read about our military.
OK w/that but what about the rest of it. He in effect syas they did it (last sentence) and the it is something that people would think Nazis etc would do. I don’t get how you cana void that, but I won’t belabor it any longer.
I concede with your (non-contextual) criteria criteria that some would have said Nazi. Unfortunately for your argument, there is context; there are allegations versus factual findings; htere is the Holocaust and knolwedge of the overwhelming evils of Nazism and communism; and there are degrees of wrong -doing and misbehaviour.
I won’t convince you. IMO it was intellectually and morally wrong for Durbin to use a Nazi comparator.
…but ok to torture and render prisoners to countries for torture.
That’s Dugger world- it’s ok to waterboard. It’s ok to torture. But let’s not TALK about it. That is “morally wrong”.
Exactly, Dugger supports torture, he believes it it as vital tool in the war on terror, but he’s afraid to call it what it is. Maybe he could tell us why that is.
I concede with your (non-contextual) criteria criteria that some would have said Nazi.
In other words, Durbin’s statement is true.
If:
1) I read this to you, and
2) did not tell you it was done by Americans,
you might guess….who was it again?
But that was then. Now “Americans” would probably be most people’s first guess.
Hooray for us.
He in effect syas they did it
The FBI says they did it.
and there are degrees of wrong -doing and misbehaviour.
Indeed there are.
However, if I compare a bank robber to Clyde Barrow, that doesn’t mean I’m accusing the bank robber of murder.
Quaker, You got the last word.
Thanks.