Also, to concede on that point, I would first have to enter an argument on it, which I did not, and, in fact, I expressly stated that I wasn’t going to get into that topic.

Your bottom line is the central argument from which we have trailed, and I suppose we will have to agree to disagree. You think it’s a big deal, I do not.

On Pat Robertson, I do not know him, but I do know his actions, time and again, tying himself to ridiculous political causes, framed as a Christian leader. That’s what a political shill does. He happens to be making loads of cash doing so. What is there to assume? It is fact.

Gee, aren’t you assuming the worst of people that you neither know or understand.

Maybe you misunderstand me or maybe you’re being deliberately obtuse. I don’t care if a kid wants to pray in class or on the playground. Or if a Christian student group wants to hold a group prayer before their meetings on campus. But if a teacher wants to lead a classroom in prayer, or if a school disctrict makes prayer part of the daily class activities that’s unconstitutional and you know it.

I’ll duly note that you concede Christians have hardly been silenced or even muffled in American politics or media.

If Christians feel the mainstream media isn’t accurately representing them and their faith, well, tell ‘em to get in line with everybody else. Don’t try to claim exclusive grievances when just about every interest group in American feels that are under or poorly represented by the mainstream media. Indeed, far from being “silenced” Christians have been able to muster the resources necessary to create their own alternative media in response.

The bottom line is that what you consider “normal” Christian prosletyzing in the case of “Jesus Camp” I find extremely disturbing and troubling. And I don’t think one has to hold any animosity toward Christians to think so.

Secondly, care to explain why someone shouldn’t be allowed to pray when & where they want?

When I was in school, it was not a big deal. No one led the school in prayers, but no one would have made a fuss if students decided to hold a prayer group or if someone wanted to pray to themselves in class or anywhere else. Has that changed?

A large part of the reason for the rise of “Christian” media is capitalism, pure and simple. Another reason is the fact that Christian references on TV have largely been taken out. I have no desire to debate the huge topic of media vs religion.

The people running this Jesus Camp are extremists and, in my eyes, dangerous ones at that,not because they want to participate in the public discourse, but because their message appears to be that children need to wage war against their fellow Americans to “reclaim America for Christ.” Fuck that, America isn’t FOR christ or Christians. It’s for everyone.

Tamed? Who they hell is trying to tame Christianity? What does that even mean?

I’m sorry but did I say wanted “subdue” anybody? I listen to that woman and other radical christian leaders, however, and I get a distinct feeling that they’d like to subdue me. Like I said, I don’t have a problem with prosletyzing but your own comments seem to suggest that Christianity in this country is some how in need of more than just new converts, it needs to be “defended.” Defended from what? Who’s telling Christians that they can’t worhsip as they wish? Who’s confiscating their bibles and bulldozing their churches? And yet this woman exhorts children to die for christ in the name of “reclaiming America.” From whom exactly?

How so? I’m not running around telling five year olds that unless they reclaim America for Madalyn Murray O’Hair that the ACLU will come and kill their pets, or whatever.

I don’t care what anyone’s religion or how they choose to prosletyze, right up until that start suggesting that American born again kids ought to be as committed to Christ as Islamic suicide bombers are to Islam. I’m fine with them right up until they start arguing that America is a Christian nation. A lot of christians may live here but this ain’t a Christian nation, my friend, in the sense that the Consitution strictly prohibits the establishment of a national reigion.

I’m sorry but that’s bullshit. These people have a clearly stated agenda: To “reclaim America for christ” and they have decided that national politics, not the church pulpit, is the arena in whcih this needs to be done.

I don’t care if christians use metaphors of war (onward christian soldiers blah, blah) to stir the faithful, but this woman is referencing specific countries and behavior in an entirely non-metaphoric way. Christians, she says, need to be willing to die for their faith just like these other crazy fucking idiots.

I don’t need to have her over to tea know she’s a dangerous nut.

Camp Kids on Fire; Swimming, Canoeing, Archery, Martydom and Sainthood.

It is interesting to see that Bush supporters aren’t the only people given to irrational fears.
Never said otherwise.

To say Christians don’t do these things is ridiculous. In the past in this country, we are talking about exterminating Native Americans, justifying slavery, persecuting Jews, persecuting gays, persecuting women, bigotry of all stripes. Some of the zealots that still approve of these things consider themselves upstanding moral christians.

From the KKK website:

“Welcome to the Ku Klux Klan!

Bringing a Message of Hope and Deliverance to White Christian America! A Message of Love NOT Hate!”

I want to younf people as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people to the cause of Islam. I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the gospel as they are over in Pakistan, in Isreal, and Palestine and all those different places, because we have, excuse me, we have the Truth.

That isn’t “enthusiasm”. That’s dangerous.