According to… what is it again? Oh, yes, a scientific study us public school kids aren’t the drooling morons in comparison to the elitist private schools that the right is constantly pushing. Imagine that.
The Education Department reported on Friday that children in public schools generally performed as well or better in reading and mathematics than comparable children in private schools. The exception was in eighth-grade reading, where the private school counterparts fared better.
The report, which compared fourth- and eighth-grade reading and math scores in 2003 from nearly 7,000 public schools and more than 530 private schools, also found that conservative Christian schools lagged significantly behind public schools on eighth-grade math.
So how do we improve education in America? Improve our public schools that are the bedrock of our system, or transfer funds to a private system that doesn’t do as good a job as the public one?
Good article. I cannot dispute that our public system is a mess, but private schools are not the answer. I was fortunate enough to go to a DOD school in Germany which prepared me nicely. If America is the place where you can accomplish anything, then education needs to be an open avenue to this goal. Private schools are by its nature elitist and closed.(money) You can privatize every school in this nation and some will be left out and others will get education based on thier wealth. Kinda widens the class gaps. Particularly disturbing is the way privatization junkies demonize public education. You could ask several Cons in office about what they would get rid of and they will say Department of Education. The Education lobby is one of the strongest lobbies in the US, but megacorporations can make billions not from successfull students but parents catering thier lifes around thier businesses. The “testing is good” meme is funded by corporations who make millions defining the classroom as a test study area. Look at any other nation with a purely private education and tell me that it demolishes the public education system of Germany, Japan, etc… I doubt one can point out such an instance because most people don’t believe in this system. I am also appaled by how some believe that education should not be a right but rather a privelage. My believe is that privatization advocates hate that liberalism has created one of the most undeniable pillars of our society: Education for the masses.
so how do we fix public schools then?
There appears to be little relation to money and achievement, so you can’t simply repeat the mantra that pouring money in them is going to fix it…
What we conservatives would like is a system that can actually reward good schools. The whole idea of vouchers is to develop some sense of competition, the idea that you can’t just show up and expect to keep working.
I think is is working now. All around my area the schools post banners that talk about how they rank, etc. Since we have open enrollment, it really behooves the school to improve.
Before you start trumpeting what “liberalism” has created, look at how american public schools rank in the world. Also remember that “liberal” create the most statist and elitist of all schools, Ivy League private universities.
And if cons had had their way, kids would still be working for a living instead of going to school.
I never have or ever would say the problem is money. There needs to be teacher accountability and hardcore curriculum changes. But the answer isn’t to take public money and fund private schools, especially as this study shows the kids aren’t neccesarily being better educated.
“The whole idea of vouchers…”
is to take money away from public schools and give it to churches where they can teach children creationsim bullshit instead of science.
See and I think vouchers are almost a good idea, but heres the nig problem that they allow for. Firstly let me say that I think school competetition is an inherently good thing, allowing parents and kids to decide where they go for whatever reasons, maybe one is more tech-oriented, maybe one is closer to the major population center of the area, whatever, it does force innovation in the schools to maintain competitivity. My problem with vouchers though is once you start bringing money into the equation, the system has the potential to cause big problems.
Lets go for a hypothetical here, three high schools in this one town. One is tech-centered, one is more sort of liberal arts oriented, and the other is general knowledge or something, I dont know. Well, for whatever reason the general school isnt doing very well and kids are leaving. Now this is not inherently a problem, and theoretically to bring those kids back they just need to improve or change or whatever. But, since those kids have left, they get less money to change through the voucher system. They have to make improvements, and not only that, have to skimp on them too to afford them, which any sane person can tell you just causes more problems further down the road. If the school were free to operate in a Long-run business model (or whatever you would call the equivalent) then there is again, no problem, they can pay teachers, educate, and not have to worry about the long term beneficial changes having any adverse effect. But the vouchers restrict their options for improvement by making their funding tie directly to how well they perform. Schools that dont perform very well dont get the money they need to improve to be able to.
Now, because the general knowledge school is doing so poorly, it cant even afford to operate, so it closes, maybe forever, maybe for a few years until new management comes in. But those kids need an education, and while the other two speciality schools were able to handle the people who voluntarily enrolled there, now they’re facing a kind of rush, which, unless happy chance has an even number of enrollees in both, may end up putting a glut of new students in one, meaning overcrowded classrooms, meaning the school doesnt operate very well, meaning transfers more out of need than choice at this point, and the problem instantiates itself again.
Open enrollment can work, I have no doubt, and may be the best way to improve our educational system. But tying funds to it, making school choice a weapon against schools that need improvement rather than a tool kids can use to improve themselves more, is no solution at all. But then what do I know, I’m public school myself.
One such method is the international baccalaurete program. I am proud that my school has adopted this method and I can’t wait to see the difference the program will make for our community.
Frank,
As far as Universities go, we do have the best in the world. People flock from around the world to go to Yale, etc… If liberals are responsible for the best university in the world, then I will gladly take credit. As to our test scores, would you say that if we had private institutions then we would demolish other countries? They don’t BUY INTO THAT SYSTEM!! It is a matter of commitment to curriculum(and NOT just tests), highly qualified teachers, but most importantly COMMUNITY AND FAMILY RESPONSIBLITY. Schools are sometimes seperated and hidden within the community. In Germany, you can’t not be apart of the schooling in your area. School is at the heart of business, leisure, fundraising etc… Secondly, parents and families need to be involved like thier lives depend on it, which is the case. Look at DOD schools or Japanese schools and it will show that parents that are not only active in the community and school, but re-affirm what is taught in class give thier child a tenfold chance of retaining the material. Teachers are asked to be parents, counselers, confidants, disciplinarians, educators, role models, fitness and health models and creative vessels for children, yet Cons choose to blame teachers for not doing enough and somehow a corporate sponsored schools is more fit to do this job? Maybe my “traditional” values are speaking, but it takes a village to raise a child, which includes parents and community. This problem is not so black and white(as most privatization advocates would like to think). I bust my ass every year to make sure kids are educated and I can tell you its not because we don’t compete or make money like a business, but for many factors that privatization advocates don’t want to address.
“Also remember that liberal create the most statist and elitist of all schools, Ivy League private universities.”
You guys just hate education don’t you?
Ollie-
Would you send your kids to DC public schools?
Hedley,
Are you suggesting that teacher desire ZERO accountability? I sure hope not. Teacher’s Unions can be monolithic and slow, but again they are not the boogeyman. As I recall teacher unions are not above the laws of the land. I only care about whats best for our society. So privatization, school prayer(I pray at school everyday….Yet I haven’t been persecuted; funny), creationism, anti-science agenda’s are all some liberal agenda? You can’t be serious! I am for fixing the problem, not creating another problem with mass privitization. With all the boogeymen the Right throws at schools and demonization of teachers, they only care for destroying an institution rather than solve a problem. Again, some think that everyone should get an education and others don’t mind widening the classes in our society.
You are not going to make any wholesale changes to the public school system without the teachers’ unions on board so it is hardly a conservative issue. Tell the trachers you want accountability and a merit-based system and see what the liberal unions say about that.
There appears to be little relation to money and achievement
Absolutely false.
Show me a public school in a wealthy district and I’ll show you a school that is performing well. And a public school in a poor district is very likely showing poor results.
yea, not quite jade.
In your same wealthy district, each family room has hundreds of books and families that value education.
In the poor districts, you will find, on average, the opposite.
Paul I baselessly attacked? Baselessly?
Yale, who tried desperatelly to matriculate a member of the Taliban, while preventing impoverished Afghani women from attending?
Harvard? Where the president was run out of town on a rail because he dared to mutter an anathema to the liberal estabilishment of professors?
Paul, you of a USC private, expensive bachelors education. Why didn’t you attend a UC? Didn’t have the grades for UC Santa Barbara or UCLA? So in YOUR case, public school not ritzy enough?
Jesus paul, your hypocrisy knows no bounds…..
yea OW, you are good at saying what you DON’T like….but how do you fix the problem?
The democrats are beholden to the teachers unions, and they aren’t all that interested in accountability. But honestly, even if they were, how would you make them accountable?
In the meantime, generations of kids are getting ripped off. Not all, as I like public education, my kid will attending public schools, but good ones.
What about the poor kids, NOW, who don’t currently have another option?
“Yea frame, I hate education …”
Indeed, which is why you baselessly attack the most prestigious universities in the country.
Yea frame, I hate education. But it took 8 years of higher education, and 8 years of postdoctoral work until I developed that hatred I guess…
Why should we support corporate welfare with vouchers? If they have such a great system, why do they need us spending tax dollars to subsidize them?
I say save the middleman and spend the money on building a better accountable public system. It’s our money, after all.
What I find funny about the whole conservative position about education is their belief how school apparantly don’t need money. Yes, money won’t solve some of the more ingrained problems in the public school system, but the cons act like that if these problems are solved (or even if they aren’t), updated text books, teaching materials, and teacher pay checks will magically appear out of thin air.
It seems to me that the cons don’t want to ignore problems that require some sort of sacrafice on their part to solve. But if other people have to do the work, then there’s apparantly no problem.
Yea frame, I hate education. But it took 8 years of higher education, and 8 years of postdoctoral work until I developed that hatred I guess&
Judging by the various BS that you’ve spewed here, I’d demand my money back if I were you.
doug the money isn’t to support the schools, it is to support the poor kids who would otherwise have no other choice than to go to their failing, local schools.
Why didn’t your hero, Al Gore send his kids to public schools when he was living in DC?
In your same wealthy district, each family room has hundreds of books and families that value education.
In the poor districts, you will find, on average, the opposite.
Doubtful.
What you will find in the wealthier district public schools are computers that aren’t obsolete and functioning science labs and libraries that are current.
You won’t find those in poorer public schools.
& is the same amount of money spent per pupil as in poorer districts.
Uh uh
I have taught in both and my experience is that the wealthy area had a vast majority of families that valued education, expected their kids to do well, and worked with the school as partners. The exact opposite in the school district I teach in right now. Parents don’t bat an eye if their children fail to do their work or fail a class.
…is the same amount of money spent per pupil as in poorer districts.
Catholic schools teach evolution.
It seems to me that the cons don t want to ignore problems that require some sort of sacrafice on their part to solve.
Should read:
“It seems to me that the cons don t want to deal with problems that require some sort of sacrafice on their part to solve.”
“Why didn t you attend a UC?”
I’m getting my PhD at UCLA right now dipshit. But your contempt for higher education is duly noted.
“I m getting my PhD at UCLA right now dipshit.”
PhD in what? Education? Eng. Lit? Sociology or Poli-sci?
That’s not education, it’s indoctrination. Golly, being a PhD in the liberal arts draws so much respect these days.
I wouldn’t send kids to DC public schools – at least most of them. I would send them to the school system I was in, which is Montgomery County (MD) public schools. The solution to this problem is more legislation like NCLB, but with a mandate that is actually fully funded to the hilt. American schools are way too soft and fluffy compared to the countries that would like to rule us.
Thanks Oliver-
You proved my point…
Public schools are not the problem. BAD public schools ARE…
Hence, the DC School System
It most certainly is, and I can prove it. The Census Bureau publishes a document every year that lists every school district in the country and their expenditures. The most recent is 2004 Annual Survey of Local Government Finances School Systems. Download the Excel files called “Elsec04T.xls” and “Elsec04.xls” and you can find all the California public schools (they are state 05). Use the explanations to understand the headers to organize the schools by type (elementary vs secondary), enrollment, and per-pupil expenditures.
By looking at a scatter plot it is obvious that the vast majority of schools are very close to one another in per-pupil expenditures when you consider the type of school and enrollment. There are a very few exceptions.
Your linked article did either very sloppy or very deceitful work. It used the extreme examples as a comparison and ignored the overwhelming majority that are much more equal. Additionally, it compared a purely elementary district to a unified district that pays for a high school education. The article makes for good sensationalism (they tell us that the high end of the range is $34,000, but they don’t tell us it was for a K12 district with 25 students), but it is not supported when you look at the entire state in context.
If you’re wondering why I would go through this much effort to prove a point, it’s because I know this data very well as it was part of my thesis for one of my master’s (educational administration).
Speaking of film….Ollie, how about the democrats pulling that ridiculous ad?
Paul, I guess they agreed with MY criticism eh? Bad for the republicans though, I think that ad would have been good for 5% or so of the vote….
Ollie-
I know how you like to scream RACISM everytime an issue like education rears its ugly head, but please explain how DC is the anomaly.
exactly OW, so what does the poor single mother in DC do? Right now, nothing but hope for the best….
No Paul is getting a PhD in film studies….which is ironic. USC has one of the best film schools in the country, that paul apparently can’t get into, but now brags on UCLA after he couldn’t get in there for his baccalaureate degree.
Paul,paul,paul….when will you learn?
In DC the solution is, at least, to allow DC to spend DC’s money and not be controlled by out of area senators. You guys like to pretend racism doesn’t exist, but it isn’t a coincidence that a majority black area like DC thats likely to elect Democrats to the house and senate is given second-class status to states that don’t have nearly the same population or contribution to the economy.
The solution nationally, as I’ve proposed numerous times, is to force every state to adhere to the standards of the top American and foreign schools. But that would involve some pesky federalism which you guys hate (at least when you disagree with it).
exactly OW, so what does the poor single mother in DC do? Right now, nothing but hope for the best& .
At the very least you guys could cut her taxes instead of the taxes for Ken Lay’s widow so she wouldn’t have to work so much and could stay home and help her kid with his or her homework.
The solution nationally, as I ve proposed numerous times, is to force every state to adhere to the standards of the top American and foreign schools.
IOW, money.
Again, JWG, you were proven wrong. And I note that you’re now backtracking on your original assertion that ‘all per-pupil spending was equal’ to ‘most per-pupil spending is nearly equal.’
It’s not just in CA, it’s everywhere. And your conservative bretheren often make it an issue; e.g., how come we get lower test scores in Washington DC where it costs $X per pupil but we get get higher scores in Nebraska where it only costs $Y?’
Ollie, that poor black, single mom in DC isn’t PAYING any taxes…..nice try.
In other words, the liberals just want these kids to suffer until someone thinks of a better idea. Great, one more generation in poverty.
Oh, and I notice it didn’t take long for you to pull the race card out. Yea, so the DC schools are top performers when the democrats are in office then?
No, not so much.
There goes your myth of the compassionate liberals looking out for out poor. As usual, the leftist talk the talk, but don’t walk the walk.
There are many variables which contribute to preceived inequities in education. Some of them were already noted like parental participation, curriculums, and classroom size. All of which I agree should contribute to better student performance, that is, if students were motivated.
It’s things like school appearance, safety, pride (go PS 142???), and commitment of teachers and administators that can make a big difference. Things like drop out rates and bullying greatly affect the psychological aspects of concentartion and effort.
I don’t think vouchers are the answer. All that does is create roaming students who will enter other schools at a different level than the rest of the class. This can create more problems in itself.
In some cases money is the answer (buiding and grounds inprovements, supplies, etc.), and in others it is personnel as previously noted. A system is needed that recognizes early on where the problems existand has a system to deal with them.
If we are to ever have a level playing field in this country it has to start in our education system. I’m not big on Federalism, but the altrnative is 40,000 local systems.
Of course with the latter, we can expand on Affirmative Action.
Speaking of film& .Ollie, how about the democrats pulling that ridiculous ad?
Paul, I guess they agreed with MY criticism eh? Bad for the republicans though, I think that ad would have been good for 5% or so of the vote& .
So, I guess you also are opposed to Senetor DeWine’s new campaign ad?
Goddamnit, the comments should really use BBCode.
The link is
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/07/gop-senator-dewine-r-oh-using-images.html
I haven’t seen it zython, have you?
But the criticism was about using our military war dead against the republicans….not using a national image representing the war on terrorists.
Llike I said, I haven’t seen the ad, but suspect, as usual, it will be apples and oranges.
I am still waiting for all you lefty hypocrites to comment on the fact that old Rahm had his ass handed to him and took the ad down already….
By what? I gave you the actual data for every district in California (every district in the US, actually). You gave me a sloppy news article.
For Christ’s sake. Of course it’s not EXACTLY equal. But districts in which wealthy people reside are not predominately spending more money per pupil than districts with lower income families. Some do, but most spend equivalent amounts per pupil when you factor elementary vs secondary and enrollment size. (And there are many low income districts that receive and spend much more than high income districts. There are examples on both ends, but you article conveniently ignored that.)
Exactly. Districts in which families overtly value education do well regardless of the money. That’s not to say more money is not useful to each and every district to increase services.
But the criticism was about using our military war dead against the republicans& .not using a national image representing the war on terrorists.
Because obviously, no one died in the WTC attacks.
I am still waiting for all you lefty hypocrites to comment on the fact that old Rahm had his ass handed to him and took the ad down already& .
The dems are idiots. What else is new? Not all liberals like the demecrats. Someday, you’ll understand that.
well then we agree on at least one thing….
I would love to challenge anyone to come check out Columbus public schools, and then check out the suburban areas and private schools here.
You’ll notice quite a difference, trust me. I’m amazed at the poor level of education in our public schools. I had the education level of a Columbus public school graduate when I was in 8th grade.
At least here, it’s horrible.
“… us public school kids aren t the drooling morons in comparison to the elitist private schools that the right is constantly pushing.”
“Us” aren’t? I attended public schools through high school and have attended private (don’t know how elitist) and public universities. Somewhere along the line I learned that ain’t correct useage.
My daughter’s school (public, major city, the largest number of students in the state) didn’t have money for chalk last year.
Just sayin’.
Your school board better find some better administrators.