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If you devoted 1/100 of the attention and energy you devote to covering the Lamont/Lieberman campaign to fighting the Republicans, we’d be three years ahead of the game. Think about it.
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How come your not as worked up over the Case/Akaka primary challenge? I’m just curious you see cause when ever I hear people disparaging the “Liberal Blogoshperes” enthusiastic support the Lamont/Lieberman primary, I always wonder why that same condiscendingly obnxious tone never seems to be aimed at a challenger who is virulently right-wing in his views on the war, economic issues, etc. You Argue in this bratty and petulant post that if the liberal blogs gave “1/100″ of the attention to defeating the right-wing we would be 3yrs ahead. I call bullshit on this notion. Not only is that not true (I mean how the hell would you/could you measure such a thing) but I believe that there would not be nearly as much attention being paid to Lefty Blogs if all they did was bitch and moan about what the republicans are doing.
I can only speak from personal experience but what got me reading liberal blogs and donating to candidates in the first place was Lamont/lieberman primary (I heard about it on Air America and Ned Lamont was the very first politician I ever gave money to). So from my example I can tell right off the bat that I wolud never have gotten involved in politics if not for Ned Lamont.
But enough life story I’ll reiterate my central point; how come you’re not as worked up over the Case/Akaka primary (in which a right-winger is trying to take a seat away from a fairly progressive senator) as you are over the Lamont/Lieberman primary (in which a progressive is trying to take a seat away from a right-winger). Why the discrepency
Ever been to a political rally?
What you saw tonight was just an on line rally.
Did you notice how much $ we raised for netroot canidates?
We missed you a YearlyKos
Oh yea were still waiting for that long promised post on why demonstrations don’t work.
You know Oliver- I think you do get it. What is the Kos crew record? 0-21? Maybe they’ll get a primary victory this year.
At the risk of being “one note,” perhaps Chessie should join the hunger strike too. (I forgot you weren’t in to demonstrations.)
Barack Obama?
Please explain how Kos is responsible for Barack Obama’s victory? Give me a freaking break. In running against Alan Keyes, the devil himself could have endorsed Obama and he still would have won.
Melissa Bean is self proclaimed ‘blue-dog’ Democrat. One that touts her ‘independence’ (ie Republicanism-lite). Her win in 2004 was the result of a ton of money from the DNC going to her race. She wasn’t a grass-roots candidate plucked from the wings by Kos.
Jon Tester hasn’t won anything yet.
The fact is, every candidate that has been pimped by Kos to the extreme has lost.
The fact is, every candidate that has been pimped by Kos to the extreme has lost.
Facts to Jay Caruso are such fleeting things.
Stephanie Herseth? Tim Kaine? Jim Webb? Jon Tester? The current Gov of MT (name escapes me but I think it’s Schweitzer)?
Kos hasn’t won anything? Ever hear of Melissa Bean? Barack Obama? Jon Tester? Don’t be ignorant or you look like a fool.
Ditto you, Oliver — you of all people should know what the blogs are doing in demanding and now getting change in this party. Changes you know need to be made.
Why we still have this tendency on the Democratic side to aim within our circle is beyond me … maybe it comes with the territory of looking up too much of the time. But the only place I see such fighting occur beyond the DFA meeting is in the blogosphere — and even DFA meetings are informed by what’s up on the blogs.
Good God.
Political rallies are mostly useless, as are protests. It’s a conglomeration of people who agree, nodding. You can raise billions of dollars, its all for naught if you’re not forcing the press to cover the issues you want. The liberal blogosphere is a great activist tool, but sucks as a media outlet.
KOS has won nearly every one of those campaigns from a simple stand point. He endorses and supports hopeless candidates and elevates them a few points, raises money for them and helps create a fight where none was before. SHow me anyone on the right that would take a candidate running against an incumbent democrat in a democratic district and giving them a respectable outcome. Who is out there pimping KAtherine Harris right now? Who will bolster whoever runs against John Kerry? KOS picks the real David vs. Goliath fights and tries to give them a sling.
Another point for MR Caruso, Barack Obama was not originally running against Alan “Carpet Bagger” Keyes, but against Hollywood Jack Ryan. That was a much tougher fight until Ryan sexploded.
Now, Jay, go knock over some wheelchair occupants and tout your fighting prowess.
HUH? You’ll need to explain that one Oliver. Not that I think the protests did anything either, but how exactly had Jack Murtha’s speech changed Iraq policy? (this should be interesting.)
The liberal blogosphere IS a media outlet. It may not have a decent percentage of people using it, but that percentage is always on the increase. The press IS covering things covered by liberal blogs. They may not always attribute the blogs, but sure enough they cover the exact same idea a day or 2 later.
Youre sounding like a right winger when you say protests are useless. Sure republicans dont give a damn about protesters, but there are many consequences and aims besides making disagreeable politicians give a damn. Do you think Nixon gave a damn about Vietnam protesters? He probably cared even less about them than Bush does about protesters. You know that deep down, Bush is scared and intimidated by them. Anyway thats not the point. The point is exposure, the media shows protesters and they show that the ‘other side’ exists and has a worthy point of view if so-and-so thousands of people decided to show up.
The press IS covering things covered by liberal blogs.
Really? Where?
You know that deep down, Bush is scared and intimidated by them.
Yeah, those protests really stopped the Iraq War, and they sure have shown him that he should change course. Jack Murtha’s press conference has done more to change Iraq policy than all the useless protests from 2003-present.
Careful Oliver…..you are apparently treading sacred ground in the Church of the Leftist.
Next thing you know, you are going to be getting the “Lieberman” treatment, branded as a Heretic and run out of town by the villagers brandishing pitchforks, patchouli and burning “ear”candles…..
but, on the other hand, you get points in my book for sticking to your guns/ideas in the face of liberal mob…
Oliver, there is a long, long history of successful political protesting. The most recent of course was the 2004 Orange Revolution in Ukraine. In this country, the civil rights movement got a huge boost by the 1963 March on Washington for Jobs and Freedom where MLK Jr. gave his “I have a dream” speech.
If you choose not to participate in this kind of democracy, that is fine. It was a right given to us in the constitution, and as with all rights, it is also your right not to participate. However, you should do a bit more reading before naively dismissing its impact.
You are so predictable. Are you really trying to say that there would have been no plans for troop reductions in Iraq if John Murtha hadn’t demanded “immediate redeployment?”
It’s almost funny how you are already spinning troop reduction plans that have been hinted at for well over a year (but with no timetable.) How many headlines like this will you write when troops start coming home – Troops Begin to Come Home Because of Pressure From Democrats. Fire up the TP machine! Too funny!
Before Murtha came out, the idea that the right would even be considering a troop drawdown from Iraq was ludicrous. The “Plan for Victory” in Iraq, as woeful as it is, only came out after Murtha spoke. Has the GOP really changed course? No, the Titanic is still aimed at the iceberg. But it has changed the way they talk about it.
Others: Isn’t it a little telling that the last effective American protest you can mention is Vietnam? Things have changed, but the people at the protests largely remain the same. If they demonstrated 1/10th the zeal in electing Dems and progressives versus Republicans and conservatives they would get a lot more done.
Oliver, you are using very ineffective logic.
Isn t it a little telling that the last effective American protest you can mention is Vietnam?
I pointed out a very specific instance of the use of protest as a means to affect change from 2004 in Ukraine. There are of course many, many others including Romania in 1989 and Russia in 1993. Maybe the question you should be asking yourself is why these protests manifested important change in other countries but we seem to degrade their importance in our own.
Things have changed, but the people at the protests largely remain the same.
The problem with this country is not the similitude of activists but the indifference of the rest. Yet not everybody is going to come to political blogs like this one and decide forthwith that they need to become more active in politics. How many people do you think found your blog on a random search of the internet? Some people still live in the old-world tactile-based community and political demonstrations still provide the means for political action. I have no idea why you can’t see that the zeal that you feel standing together with your fellow Americans will engender more political involvement.
Freedom of Assembly is constitutionally protected because it is powerful. It is a really unwise idea to win this battle with one hand behind our backs.
Marty,
You never did admit to your innacurate statement about Kos-endorsed candiates who have won their elections like Obama, Herseth, Salazar, and Chandler.
I didn’t say that Marty (and you know that) but it was verboten to even discuss the possibility of the issue until Murtha came out, and as I noted, the administration’s initial thought was to attack Murtha then reconsidered — then released their “victory” strategy.
Again, I said the last effective American protest. I’m not saying you shouldn’t be allowed to protest, I’m just saying its not effective. Going outside and holding a sign isn’t very viable when you’ve got a job to go to and kids to take care of.
Oliver, is America exceptional with respect to political assembly? Why is public assembly so effective in Europe, Asia, Latin America and and so ineffective here?
What I think you would like to say is that protesters are a bunch of dirty, drugged-out hippies who still haven’t left the sixties whereas the smart kids are now wearing suits and writing blogs. That’s fine, but you might find on deeper inspection that some people wear suits during the week and assemble on the weekend. Heck, they might even bring their kids with them.
It seems the immigration rallies were pretty effective a couple of months ago to get the public’s and the politicians’ (as well as the blogospheres’) attention.
I would agree that most protests are small-time and ineffectual, but the number of people that turned out for that (immagration) was pretty freakin’ staggering, no?
Are you really trying to say that there would have been no plans for troop reductions in Iraq if John Murtha hadn t demanded immediate redeployment?
Can’t speak for Oliver, but if you believe that the sagging poll numbers for Bush have had nothing to do with a change from “cut and run” accusations and “stay as long as it takes” from republican members of Congress to talk about significant troop withdrawal this year. then you are kidding yourself. Murtha has just turned up the heat a notch or two.
Sundown- I’m speaking of candidates that Kos ran specific “netroots” fundraising drives for, not supported. Hell- Markos and every other pundit out there right and left would have a pretty good record if we’re just talking about people they supported or would have supported.
And Wack?- Oliver said that John Murtha caused a policy change. Not so. The “significant troop withdrawl this year” you speak of is coming from the generals and is only a possibility at this point based on Iraqi Military capability continuing to grow and as the American forces back off to an advisory role at it’s current pace. That has always been the policy- “as the Iraqis stand up, we will stand down” however long that takes. This is the wrong administration to worry about poll numbers. He wouldn’t be pushing his and the Senates unpopular version of immigration reform if he were.
Duros- I think you’re right about the immigration rallies as far as getting the public’s attention. But the attention it got probably did help the cause of illegals any. Public opinion seemed to grow away from what they are asking for. (Demanding Amnesty)
Oliver, is America exceptional with respect to political assembly? Why is public assembly so effective in Europe, Asia, Latin America and and so ineffective here?
Not Oliver, but if you will: because the press does not give them adequate coverage. There are many reasons for this, like say, the crappy coverage the press gives just about everything that doesn’t involve the President playing “dress up”, but at least part of the problem is with the protests themselves. They have in many way become parodies of the 60’s hippies wearing weird clothes, banging drums, and bitching about every damn thing “the man” is doing wrong. The people doing this seem to be mostly people who spend most of their lives doing this (just my guess, I have no real idea – maybe they’re all stock brokers during the week). This is my own personal observation from attending some anti Iraq war rallies.
However the marches in February, before the war were better. Why? Because they were so large that the “typical protest crowd” was overshadowed by more diverse people, so it didn’t look so typically silly. These marches were still under covered in the media, and ineffective, however.
There is no reason that marches can not again become effective (as in now and in America), but it will take lots of work. The crowd must become more focused, and that goes triple for the speakers and leaders. If it is an anti Iraq war rally – no mention of Mumia or Palestein (even if you can argue it is all related – you to make a difference or not?). The energy of the crowd must also be harnessed more effectively. Encourage everyone there to write a letter to the editor about the rally, have them sign up for phone banks or campaigns, etc. It could turn the march thing around. It might not be the best way to use resources, but who knows? If that’s what you love, then try to fix it. But pretending it ain’t broke won’t help.
For the record: I would argue that the immigration rallys were effective because they were what I said might fix other rallys. Not comprised of what can be made out to be “the same old hippes”, and focused. I have a hunch that a lot of letters and phone calls were generated from those marches.
And, not that I mentioned it before, but being really really f’ing huge helps too. No pol can look at a sea of voters with out a twinge…
Why is public assembly so effective in Europe, Asia, Latin America and and so ineffective here?
Because 40 years ago people protested under threat of being whipped by hoses, having dogs set on them or worse. The left decided protest = effective and thus every cause has an affiliated protest – abortion, gay rights, environmentalism, economic justice, race, etc. At some point it just becomes a haze of nothingness. One of the most disheartening moments I’ve ever had is going to a protest against the Iraq war in February 2003 and realizing how amazingly futile the thing was.
A lot of things work in Europe & Co. that wouldn’t work here, and vice versa. Our culture is just different. It’s no longer 1962.
First of, besides when I went to my friend’s wedding last year, I do not wear a suit. A polo shirt is dressing up for me. That said, I think blogging has done more – as little as that is – for liberals in the last few years than protesting has. People do not have the time or energy for something that is as politically futile as a protest. I want for the left to invest in media and simply word of mouth marketing of our values that would be way more effective than yet another protest of the same people with the same signs and the same puppets.
Oliver, everybody’s different.
There are many people who require face-to-face democracy. To them, protesting and public assembly are the best and most real way to affect change. To them, it is like the difference between being at FedExField and watching the Redskins on TV.
Conversely, I know a lot of people who don’t read political blogs and couldn’t be convinced to start. They either don’t commonly use computers, don’t like the incivility of comments, think they are opinion parading as news or prefer professional and/or academic opinions to those expressed here. Bloggers will never reach these people, but I would never say therefore that the political blogging / grassroots movement is ineffective.
Let’s all work together and not create unnecessary divisions. On that note, my apologies on the comment about suit-wearing. It was a cheap shot.
Oliver,
Twice you have publicly stated, if you call your blog public, you would write an expanded explanation why demonstrations don’t work.
Either your word is no good or you have nothing substantial to add to the discussion.
So your solution is for us grass roots guys to give money to beltway bandits to spend on media?
When you have a chance please tell me of a political movement that was successful in electing candidates in the first few years of existence? I though so. Back in the day the first demonstrations were poorly attended and not covered by the media. Political movements build momentum over time, reach a crescendo when the underlying ideas are finally accepted as fact and change occurs.
I understand your being so young makes you think history does not repeat itself. I got news for ya 20 is a lot dumber that 40 and damn, I left 40 a long time ago.
[...] Well, it s close at least. I have re-read this article a couple times since it was first published and it still rings true. I posted a link to it in a discussion we ve been having about the efficacy of protesting (I m against it on of account of the fact that it doesn t work). [...]
There are many people who require face-to-face democracy. To them, protesting and public assembly are the best and most real way to affect change.
I am 100% in favor of face to face democracy. As I said above, the best tactic the left could adopt is less confrontation and more conversion. (read this article from ‘04 on the GOP’s door to door strategy and then explain to me how the DNC strategy of leaving it all up to the unions is somehow better)
So your solution is for us grass roots guys to give money to beltway bandits to spend on media?
I didn’t say this. Create your own media. Convince rich liberals of the need for a liberal media infrastructure, support good liberals on tv or in print.
Either your word is no good or you have nothing substantial to add to the discussion.
I’ve written about it a million times. Citing the civil rights marches and Vietnam for the efficacy of protest in America rings hollow when we’re almost 30 years past the mark.
When you have a chance please tell me of a political movement that was successful in electing candidates in the first few years of existence?
The conservative movement was succesful in taking over the GOP with Goldwater. Just a few years later they got a President – Nixon.
Back in the day the first demonstrations were poorly attended and not covered by the media.
These demonstrations are well attended and covered by the media, yet their effect is practically nil. Why is the answer to keep doing more of the same? Sounds like the same mindset currently running Dem politics into the ground by being me-too Republicans.
I understand your being so young makes you think history does not repeat itself.
The difference is, for all their evil, conservative leaders were smart. I see no such drive on the left, and if the only solution is to retread the 60s and 70s, we’re doomed.
“The press IS covering things covered by liberal blogs.
Really? Where?”
Heres an example today.
http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/ny-bc-ny–anncoulter0707jul07,0,7865676.story
I don’t know whether you are playing dumb or genuinely dont follow online media. Important stories published by blogs frequently make it to the MSM shortly after.
Isnt the NY Post part of the MSM?
The reason the Coulter story is out is because the NY Post pushed it on their pages. The MSM essentially ignored Rude Pundit’s work here until the Post looked into it. The MSM doesn’t pick up on liberal blogs when they’ve pushed stories about Bush and the right. And I kind of think its funny you talking about me following the media because I am not only an avid consumer of the media in my personal life but it is the focus of my day job.
Go read Peter Daou’s “THE TRIANGLE: Limits of Blog Power” so you know WTF you’re talking about.
Maybe those lib’rul bloggers are disappointed that Lieberman was ten times as aggressive at debating Lamont in 2006 than when he debated Dick Cheney in 2000.
Then what the hell was Kos doing all over my TV a month ago?
Bama,
whatever “passiveness” Lieberman displayed in 2000 was more likely due to the format (sitting at a table instead of at podiums) and because of Lieberman’s overcorrection after Gore was blasted for the sighing, interrupting, and lockboxing just days earlier.
Besides, it’s not like the very first sentence of coverage focused on their differences or anything…
“Political rallies are mostly useless, as are protests. It s a conglomeration of people who agree, nodding. You can raise billions of dollars, its all for naught if you re not forcing the press to cover the issues you want. The liberal blogosphere is a great activist tool, but sucks as a media outlet.”
You have been drinking far too much K Street Kool-Aid young man. Political rallies and other public expressions of affinity or dissent are not useless. These modes of political theatre have to be accompanied by other kinds of action in order to produce social change but to argue that they are useless is to succomb to a certain kind of slick, cynical and allegedly realistic political analysis that has played a far larger role in the demise of the Democratic Party than any rallies and demonstrations have done.
I am old enough to remember what you so-called realpolitik Democrats keep forgetting is that what chiefly separated Democrats from Republicans back in the day was not money and control of the media but PEOPLE. The Democrats understood that the key to their winning elections was in out organizing Republicans and turning out their base. This knowledge seems to have been lost sometime in the mid-1980s when Democrats began giving up organizing and turning out their base and decided to go uptown.
What you seem not to understand is that political rallies and demonstrations are a way for people on our side, although, apparently, not your side, to give voice to their concerns and issues. The Democrats, by and large, are not people who own newspapers and electronic media outlets that reach a mass audience. I am simply astonished and deeply disappointed that you have no appreciation or understanding that mass political demonstrations and rallies are a way to give people a feeling of hope and that change is possible.
One more point. Your knowledge of the history of political protest in America seems to begin and end with the black-led Civil Rights Movement. The theatre of that movement certainly was a substantive factor in its success but protests and mass demonstrations have been an integral part of American politics since the 18th Century.