“Stop The ACLU” group forces Jewish family out town.
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How about “fundamentalist christians” strike again?
I don’t know, just for….accuracy?
Amen, brotha..
There are days where I swear, my love of Christ is equaled only by my hatred of Christians.
point out anytime in the past I have done that?
More accurately though would be trying to compare Fidel Castro with the American Left…..there maybe some cross-over, but it is overall an unfair comparison
The Left Strikes Again
A large Delaware school district promoted Christianity so aggressively that a Jewish family felt it necessary to move to Wilmington, two hours away, because they feared retaliation for filing a lawsuit.
Why did I say “the left strikes again”?
Because once again, we are asked to determine the outcome of a lawsuit because of an individual’s fears.
Interestingly, the fears of the remaining community are meaningless.
Once again, the right is somehoe guilty of the actions and reactions of someone else.
If the Dobriche’s killed themselves, would the “right” have been guilty of murder?
There are 7,700 students in the entire district, and two students involved in the suit. One family has moved.
Does this in anyway resemble fairness?
Are we to believe that the ACLU has not picked a school district to intimidate them with a 6 or 7 digit lawsuit?
And, finally, last, but by no means last, if there are only 7,700 kids in the whole district, how many people could there be in those towns? 35,000, 40,000 maybe?
That doesn’t represent the right in a country of 280 million…
JWG, I am sure if this were in the Deep South, we could expect a similar scene. Religious intolerance can happen anywhere.
This is just sick. I sent this harasser a piece of my mind, don’t know if he’ll respond. Heck, he responded to General JC Christian, so who knows?
Oh sure Pedro, and the next time Ward Churchill speaks, I’m sure we can expect that you and Frank will refrain from putting his words in the mouths of all liberals…
Those blue states in the North are so tolerant!
WWJD? After all, he was jewish.
It wasn’t just a matter of fear. It was a matter of actual instances of harassment, such as accusing the students of killing Jesus.
But I suppose that doesn’t fit well with the “blame the victim” mentality.
Yes, but if it happened in the South we would be hearing all sorts of southern stereotypes. I’m glad we can agree that “religious intolerance can happen anywhere.”
:-O
Frank, they weren’t asking for special privileges, they were asking to be left alone. When the kids were singled out for abusive behaviour, i.e. “Take the yarmulke off, Jewboy”, “Christ Killers”, etc, they just wanted it to stop. It’s not asking people to “bow to your will” to be left alone, it’s a request for a de-facto restraining order.
If they had demanded the whole school recognize and celebrate Jewish holidays, you’d be on the money to say “oh, boo hoo”. The family was harassed (as detailed here : http://www.jewsonfirst.org/06b/indianriver.html), threatened with “disappearance” like O’Hair, attacked by talk radio and now Stop the ACLU. A bit much, don’t you think, for not being part of the “one true faith” (their words, not mine)?
It doesn’t fit well with the “7,700 shall bow to the will of the 1″ mentality, either.
buma: I find it highly unlikely that Jesus would have rung up the JCLU*
if he were the only Christian, which technically speaking, He was.
I wonder how the Dobriche’s would have acted if they were threatened with crucifixion?
* Judaea Civil Liberties’ Union
Oh, and yes, they were asking for the grad prayers to be changed from “to Jesus” to “to God”. If that’s the worst thing that they asked, then it shouldn’t have been a problem. Same God, right?
Frank, you forgot the part about being personally singled out, alienated and harassed. So while you’re right, it is an issue of choice, let’s not pretend this family stewed irrationally in their own self-pity before leaving dodge.
And further, if simple changes could be made in order to reduce the fear associated with Ground Zero or Indian Point, doesn’t it make sense to use your voice to make those changes? Or was the fear associated with the smoldering remains of WTC unimportant or senseless? This community in particular seemed to maintain “love it or leave it” mentality, from what I can tell. And they left. A personal choice brought on by particular actions (and inactions) of a community.
Your analogy is not apt.
My bad on the the perceived inference Frank. Religious topics do make my blood boil (childhood stuff, long story). Sometimes I shoot before I analyze closely enough.
Frank,
So if people in Selma,AL (circa Civil Rights era)didn’t like the way they were being treated, they should just leave? Lets cut the crap and call this for what it is: religious bigotry and intimidation. How on earth is a destroyed building, dirty conditions or bad view equal intimidation and threats from religious bigots. If I follow your logic that no matter how disgusting or illegal of an action, if a majority or mob supports it, then its ok? This is another example of why I am disgusted as a Christian. Religion is corrupting our way of life and our politics.
Ian: I’m sure they didn’t think so.
They were entitled to legal protection, if they chose to ask for it. They chose to move. They were not forced out.
I wasn’t trying to infer that they were treated well.
I live kinda close to Manhattan. From the roof of my building I could see the smoke streaming out of Ground Zero for nearly a week.
To the NW, about a similar distance, is Indian Point Nuclear Plant.
If I choos to move, because I am afraid of either of those two things, whose fault would it be?
Why did I say the left strikes again ?
Because to a conservative, the left is always threatening.
Thanks for reminding us that you’re a conservative. We would never have known from the hundreds of other times you reminded us.
I really weep for the distorted view of God that those kids are getting from their families.
That part of Delaware is the South, as much as the Eastern Shore of Maryland and Virginia is.
Delaware was a slave state.
Liberals want prayer to stay in a closet, and gays to be in public.
Conservatives want gays to stay in the closet, and prayer to be in public.
WW: It isn’t “circa Civil Rights Era” — it’s now.
There are all sorts of institutions available to help people in their situation (I’m giving them the benefit of a doubt, because at the time of the article, no physical harme had befallen them, right?).
They didn’t just choose to leave, they chose not to avail themselves of those institutions.
I can’t prove it, but I believe they simply advised by the ACLU to leave town, in this fashion: Look, we sue for an injunction, and police protection, but it will look better if you leave town. They’ll look much worse, and you’ll win.
…A former board member suggested that Mona Dobrich might “disappear” like Madalyn Murray O’Hair, the atheist whose Supreme Court case resulted in ending organized school prayer. She disappeared in 1995 and her dismembered body was found six years later.
Wow, more of that Christian love we’ve all been hearing about. Any real Christian would shudder to hear this. But heh, it’s not like someone asked Jews to come to town, right? Maybe they should have stayed in New York, right?
Cue wingnuts claiming persecution because they can’t force religion in a school paid for by people of all faiths.
Dana,
Whether it is from someone in state or out of state, harassment of this kind is always immoral. The fact that some posters here can’t even make moral conclusions like this that aren’t dependent on politics – that speaks volumes.
Let’s see, the family in question left town because they feared the response of the locals, but to my liberal friends, it’s the fault of Stop the ACLU, a national organization, for putting up the name and address on the internet.
Get real, here: the locals alredy knew who filed the lawsuit, and the harassment that is documented here is by the locals. The Stop the ACLU posting didn’t have squat to do with it.
But it’s a good demagogue, I’ll give y’all that!
I muddied the waters? OH, sorry, I forgot, telling the truth to a liberal is considered “muddiing the waters”?
And what article are you talking about MJB?
This one
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/23/world/middleeast/23bbox.html?ex=1152244800&en=bbea6fc7ad131100&ei=5070
the one that talks about finding the WMD’s?
stop will the serial posting too, you are as bad as Paul!
Hey Ollie, when are you going to blog about the north koreans popping off a couple of rounds in our direction? You know, “Oliver can’t seem to find a good reason to have a missile defense system”
You can pray on an airplane, but you can’t smoke.
You can smoke in school, but you can’t pray.
Sorry to be off topic, but I believe it’s relevant to anyone reading what you write to know that you have a record of dishonesty.
No Pedro, this one: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/13/AR2005081300530.html. The one you cited in this thread:
http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/02/01/michelle-malkins-truth-squad-of-freedom/ : but clearly had not read because it proves the opposite.
Frank, you’re right, the italics on “is” really makes a point.
Because to a conservative, the left is always threatening.
The left is always threatening; thank God conservatives are there to stop them.
I’d like to respond to Frank’s “7,700 shall bow to the will of the 13 mentality,” bit.
Until the constitution changes, those 7,700 shall not be so priveledged as to take away the protected rights of others merely because of majority status. That would be the same as an ultra liberal town denying its residents the right to own guns. I’m damn sure the ACLU would intervene in that one, too.
Maybe the reason the right hates the ACLU so much is because, by nature, republicans tend to pass laws contratrary to the constitution more so than liberals, thereby igniting an ACLU lawsuit.
Just a thought.
“Because to a conservative, the left is always threatening.
The left is always threatening; thank God conservatives are there to stop them.”
Shorter Frank:
NANANANANANANANANANA I CAN’T HEAR YOU!
This is the dumbest fucking comment thread I’ve ever read. Frank has really exposed himself:
“Because once again, we are asked to determine the outcome of a lawsuit because of an individual s fears.” – Um, yeah, that’s pretty much the central point in every civil rights issue throughout the entire history of mankind.
“Interestingly, the fears of the remaining community are meaningless.” – The only fear I see is the fear that they will lose the ability to use the government to illegally enforce their bigotry. Do you believe a community should be allowed to exclude people from their community based on religion?
“If the Dobriche s killed themselves, would the right have been guilty of murder?” – No. The “right” would have been guilty of the exactly the same thing as they are here.
“There are 7,700 students in the entire district, and two students involved in the suit. One family has moved. Does this in anyway resemble fairness?” – You’re only begging the question. Of course its not “fairness” if you are bent on equating biggots’ “rights” to harrass with the clear constitutional right to be free from religious intimidation.
“Are we to believe that the ACLU has not picked a school district to intimidate them with a 6 or 7 digit lawsuit?” – Not relevant. Afterall, that is exactly how Brown v. Board came about. Are we supposed to excuse the harrassment if the vast majority are harrassers and the ACLU was vigilant in its watchdog capacity?
“That doesn t represent the right in a country of 280 million” – But these sentiments are almost universally exhibited by conservatives.
“It doesn t fit well with the 7,700 shall bow to the will of the 13 mentality, either.” – Again, do you believe that if 7700 people all agreed to ban a single person from living in a town based on religion (or race, etc..) they should be allowed to?
“They were entitled to legal protection, if they chose to ask for it. They chose to move. They were not forced out.” – And they’re still entitled to legal protection, but more importantly, restitution. Should they just forget about it, or should they be compensated for the injury they suffered? Maybe a person who had his arm cut off by a negligently used chainsaw should just forget about it if he moved away from the jerk who cut off his arm. And what about the next person to come along with an arm? Tort law is there to protect the community at large, not just the specifically injured person.
“I live kinda close to Manhattan. From the roof of my building I could see the smoke streaming out of Ground Zero for nearly a week.” – Wow, maybe I should just step off because you got “cred”.
“If I choos to move, because I am afraid of either of those two things, whose fault would it be?” – Huh? First of all, you need a wrong to find fault. What would the wrong be here?
“It isn t circa Civil Rights Era it s now.” – You are literally making the argument that the simple passage of time is something that should be considered when thinking about discrimination. What about those intervening decades absolves people of their responsibility to not harrass people?
And Pedro as usual has added nothing except to cloud the debate. You clarified that these were fundies. Maybe so, but what should we call them when they’re antisemitic non-fundamentalists? You see it now? It’s not the fundamentalism that matters, it’s the christ centered exclusion of other non-conforming people. Now apologize for lying about us finding WMD by citing an article which actually proved the exact opposite.
And if you don’t remember why this makes you a liar, just read my responses down that thread.
I made a snarky remark about the offices of http://www.stoptheaclu being so close to Midway Field (you know, jet fumes and noise making him so cranky) complete with Google maps link, but Jesus General deleted my post. I guess that makes him better than the wingnuts…
Hey Pedro, maybe Oliver had other things to do today besides blog about what you want him to blog about.
And Kim Jong-Il’s failed attempt at relevance doesn’t prove that a missile defense shield is necessary. Nor do his actions make the infernal machine actually work, which is the really important thing.
typical leftist response…..
“Oh, I was wrong….LOOK, OVER THERE! ITS A BIRD, ITS A PLANE…..!”
Riiighht…….
“stop will the serial posting too, you are as bad as Paul!”
Stop being an idiot, you are as bad as Frank …
Thank you, Frank, for offering by example a plausible answer to the eternal question, “are stupid people at least smart enough to know that they’re stupid?”
typical leftist response& ..
Oh, I was wrong& .LOOK, OVER THERE! ITS A BIRD, ITS A PLANE& ..!
Pedro,
Wrong about what? Your lack of clarity is as annoying as your dishonesty.
Holy crap! I go away for a while, and the peasants are outside the windmill with torches, pitchforks and axe handles!
Where do I begin?
How about this?
Um, yeah, that s pretty much the central point in every civil rights issue throughout the entire history of mankind.
Starting with the snarky “Um” you then saunter off into cloudcuckooland. Civil rights are not about fear. They are about — wait for it — the rights of citizens!
Do they have a right?
Are they free to exercize that right? Period.
The only fear I see is the fear that they will lose the ability to use the government to illegally enforce their bigotry.
Practicing your own religion is not bigotry. The right to practice your own religion, unencumbered by government, is a protected right in the 1st Amendment of the Constitution. The right to be assured that no one practices a religion that you don’t like, around you, is not. Period.
Do you believe a community should be allowed to exclude people from their community based on religion?
Do you believe a community should be prevented from engaging in a religious practice by the ACLU?
Not relevant. Afterall, that is exactly how Brown v. Board came about. Are we supposed to excuse the harrassment if the vast majority are harrassers and the ACLU was vigilant in its watchdog capacity?
WRONG! The ACLU was not involved in Brown v Board of Education, the city of Topeka was not a tiny town in Delaware, and the suit was not designed to blackmail Topeka.
Again, do you believe that if 7700 people all agreed to ban a single person from living in a town based on religion (or race, etc..) they should be allowed to?
That isn’t what happened. For the record, if all the people in a city voted to ban a family ( whatever that means) I would be opposed.
First of all, you need a wrong to find fault. What would the wrong be here?
That I was made afraid by the smoke from Ground Zero or the very existence of Indian Point. Who cares? Fear is fear. “I’m afraid — you fix it” is the liberal formula, isn’t it?
You are literally making the argument that the simple passage of time is something that should be considered when thinking about discrimination.
Do you need English language lessons? The hypothetical question related to the Civil Rights era. My response was, “It isn’t the Civil Rights era. You got a problem with that? Or do you think we’re living in the mid – 50’s?
My little clock in the corner of the computer says July 6, 2006.
What about those intervening decades absolves people of their responsibility to not harrass people?
Nothing
Gee, that was fun
jamey: ?
Y all really need to learn to read, fred
That says it all, eh?
Y’all really need to learn to read, fred. First of all, that pastor that provoked the lawsuit specifically *singled out* the daughter during the graduation ceremony to pray that she comes to Jesus. After that, the family filed the lawsuit.
the other family in the lawsuit is going by the name of “Doe” because they also fear harm.
And, the ACLU was not originally involved in the suit until MUCH later, long after it was filed. Their website even spells out, “we’re not involved.”
and what the burning WTC has to do with this, I don’t know. Other than showing that ANY kind of fanatical religiousity leads to evil.
If you think the town’s actions were right, maybe you need to move to Iran, since you seem to support theocracy.
“Practicing your own religion is not bigotry. The right to practice your own religion, unencumbered by government, is a protected right in the 1st Amendment of the Constitution. The right to be assured that no one practices a religion that you don t like, around you, is not. Period.”
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
“Do you believe a community should be prevented from engaging in a religious practice by the ACLU?”
No, only by the courts and only when it is done to the exclusion of other religions.
“WRONG! The ACLU was not involved in Brown v Board of Education, the city of Topeka was not a tiny town in Delaware, and the suit was not designed to blackmail Topeka.”
Oh, you nailed me. I guess I expected you to have a basic knowledge of the case. Of course it wasn’t the ACLU, it was the NAACP. It had been looking for the perfect case to take to the Supreme Court. I was likening the strategies they used. And Brown was most certainly used to “blackmail” Topeka to conform to the constitution and the law. (I wish I didn’t have to use your unfortunate language but I’m willing to play the game to deal with the bigger point, which I would never expect you or pedro to ever do because it requires knowledge of history and intellectual honesty.) But bravo in avoiding the issue.
“For the record, if all the people in a city voted to ban a family (whatever that means) I would be opposed.”
What about being allowed to harrass someone until they want to leave? I know it’s a hypothetical but that’s grownups explore issues and theories. Please try to not avoid the issue.
“Who cares? Fear is fear.”
You’re the one who is trying to assign guilt or fault for the causing of fear. Guilt or fault follows someone being wronged.
“Do you need English language lessons? The hypothetical question related to the Civil Rights era. My response was, It isn t the Civil Rights era. You got a problem with that? Or do you think we re living in the mid – 50 s?
My little clock in the corner of the computer says July 6, 2006.”
Don’t get snippy when you’re the one who missed the basic point of what I was saying. But thanks for telling me about your computer. AGain, why does it matter if a bad act happens in 1950 or 2006?
“What about those intervening decades absolves people of their responsibility to not harrass people?
Nothing”
Oh, so you did get my point and you agree with me. Why did you act like a dick and challenge MY english abilities?
Thanks for again exposing yourself to the rest of us as a shallow, uninformed person. Say hi to Pedro for me.
Frank_D Jul 6th, 2006 at 5:57 pm
Y all really need to learn to read, fred
That says it all, eh?
“You arrogant wannabe Nazi prick” says it all, too, eh, Frank?
mjb: Fisking is not your strong point. Stick to straightforward insulting. It is more unpleasant, but you’re much better at it.
And Brown was most certainly used to blackmail Topeka to conform to the constitution and the law. (I wish I didn t have to use your unfortunate language but I m willing to play the game to deal with the bigger point,
I used the term “blackmail” for a reason.
blackmail: Extortion of money or something else of value from a person by the threat of exposing discreditable information.
That is not what Brown v Board of Ed was about.
Frank,
I might believe your criticism of my fisking if you even attempted a response.
Also, I’m sure the suit in delaware sought injunctive relief, just as Brown did, along with the moolah.
Brown v Board of education’s suit was for how much, again?
The answer at Jul 6th, 2006 at 3:16 pm was sufficient.
Sorry you weren’t satisfied. Oh, wait… No, I’m not!
just as Brown did, along with the moolah.
Still struggling with English, as she is wrote and spoke, eh?
I didn’t say brown sought money, I said the delaware case did.
Let me help you:
Also, I m sure the suit in Delaware sought injunctive relief, just as Brown did, as well as the moolah.
Substanceless. Thank you.
Lacking in substance.
mjb, where you from, boy?
Blogging Code of Ethics…
After the Frisch affair, and the disclosure of personal information by websites on other topics, maybe a voluntary Bloggers Code of Ethics is needed.
……
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