… the right had the same sort of outrage for terrorists as they did the media, we wouldn’t be so far behind in this battle.
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If only the left had the same sort of outrage for terrorists as they do for George W. Bush…
Actually most of the outrage is because George Bush won’t do what it takes to kill the terrorists. We hate him because he’s gonna get even more of us killed.
So, OW, do you support what the NY Times, WaPo and others did? After all, this is the site that went batsh*t over suspected allegations re Valerie Plame. That was a blow to national security! Now we have a real blow to national security and what Democratic voices are being heard? Anyplace. Anywhere. Who is speaking out against the violation on your side?
Could this be why I and the public think the Democrats don’t have the will or the nads to fight the WOT?
Dugger
The position of the Bush administration– and it is, indeed, a ludicrous one– is that ‘the turrists’ have no clue their finances might be under surveillance, anyway, and the New York Times is somehow spilling the beans about something ‘the turrists’ didn’t already know.
The truth, I suspect, is that the Bush administration (along with its myriad sycophants) simply doesn’t like the light of day. They don’t want the public to know what they’re up to at any level, any time. Also, their dander is up because a major daily publication strayed from the official Bushie rules of conduct (if only for a moment).
Anyway, let the right-wing troll, Bush-friendly suck-up begin…
George Bush makes more terrorists than he stops. Not a winning strategy. Also, I think terrorists know their financial records might be under scrutiny. CASH like the billions of US dollars in cash dumped in Iraq lost with no accounting probably does more to fund terrorist groups than anything Bush might dream to find investigating EVERY US citizen’s banking records.
Pedro,
Couple of points.
First, its a “Global War on Terror”. As such, we need to ask “how many terrorist attacks have there been since 9/11″, not just “how many terrorist attacks have been on US soil”.
By that metric, we’re not doing so hot.
Second, no one here buys your bullshit about “fighting them over there so we don’t have to fight them here”. The fact of the matter is, there was no Iraq/Al qaueda connection and hussein was more than contained, he was beaten. He wasn’t a threat. And now we’re wasting manpower and resources fighting someplace we didn’t need to fight, and with a fairly serious threat of developing a second terrorist hidey hole when we leave because while they weren’t there before, they sure as hell are now. This isn’t to say we’re fighting them over there so we don’t here, but rather we’re fighting them where they weren’t before. These are not terrorists that we would’ve fought anyway…these are NEW TERRORISTS that DIDN’T EXIST before we stuck our noses into it.
Whatever happened to those short, sweet rational moments you used to have?
Sorry, I missed our whole failure here.
We have had how many attacks on US soild since 9/11?
None you say?
Yea, thats what I thought.
Oh, and you leftists, who have never worked in intelligence or the military, and in fact have absolutely no knowledge of counter-terrorism, you know better than the professionals who do this for a living?
Puh-lease……
Then why was the program considered successful? Terrorists don’t know exactly which banking systems we’re investigating until we tell them.
* Reason #34,678 why Democrats will never be trusted with national security *
Was that the belief of the Democratic party?
Well, except for all the documents we have found in Iraq that say the opposite.
I think the argument is that the “professionals who do this for a living” were generally ignored and disdained by the neocon theorists in this administration, hence our current predicament.
Rheinhard…
professionals who do this for a living were generally ignored and disdained by the neocon theorists in this administration
Of course there have been and always will be policy debates, but it’s hard to claim that these intelligence professionals were ignored when, in fact, they were given at least two very aggressive and, by their own accounts, successful tools…which have since been greatly diminished or destroyed by the New York Times.
Yeah, libs wish Bush would quell the terrorist threat that is Okinawa.
I find your statement laughable. After all, every time Bush takes a step to kill terrorists (SWIFT, NSA, Zarqawi), this site is always among the first to poo poo the development.
Oops! You just gave the game away. If the increase in global attacks “prove” Bush’s record on international terrorism is lacking, surely the sudden outright end to domestic attacks “prove” Bush has been effective in keeping the homeland safe.
Actually most of the outrage is because George Bush won t do what it takes to kill the terrorists. We hate him because he s gonna get even more of us killed.
Uhhh…Actually, programs like this help to make sure less of us get killed. Of course, it’s hard for such a program to be effective when the people know they are now being monitored.
You see Oliver, it’s not like Abdul in the desert is having money sent to him to buy explosives and such through some newfangled version of osmosis. That money is moving through the international banking system. The people funding guys like Abdul are not impoverished downtrodden Muslims who are turning into terrorists because they are poor. They’re people that have the capacity to utilize the international banking system to funnel money to those who would kill us.
Crikey. It’s a good thing the NY Times didn’t know where Zarqawi was. They probably would have blared over the front page where he was saying it was in the “public interest.”
Rheinhard…
Ahhh, yes, of course, Shinseki. A man who may very well have been right. But he was in the Army, not the intelligence community (no, they are not the same at all.) His claim to fame is an assessment of troop strength…not covertly collected intelligence.
O’Neill was butting heads with the FBI for years for, among other things, at least two security incidents that were his fault. His 25 year career in the FBI ended with his resignation 6 months after Bush took office. I guess in your fantasy world, in that six months he somehow came up with all the answers, convinced his FBI superiors to finally listen to him, and then was booted out by Bush for…some reason.
All that aside, is it your position that this story by the NYT does no harm to our fight against terrorists, as is claimed by the current batch of intelligence professionals?
policy debates?
POLICY DEBATES?
Is the termination of a career military man, Eric Shinseki, for accurately assessing the troop levels needed for successful occupation of Iraq because that estimate contradicted the optomistic fantasies of Rumsfeld a “policy debate”?
Is the marginalization of the man most loudly sounding the alarm about the danger of al-Quaeda in the early days of the Bush admin, Joh O’Neill, leading to his resignation and ironic death in the collapse of the WTC a “policy debate”?
As to this latest “horrible outrage” of the NYT, I can assume that the wingnutosphere will also be calling for the execution by firing squad of Bush Admin. Treasury Undersecretary James Gurule?
Cripes, even Keller wrote that terrorists “continue to use the international banking system, because it is immeasurably more efficient than toting suitcases of cash.”
Putting aside the normal knee-dropping idiocy of people like Jay, Dugger and Farris (at this point, it’s hard not to laugh when I read their posts), part of the problem is that the Bush administration has so often, and repeatedly operated in such a suspicious manner, in ways not so transparent, that I don’t fault *any* news agency for trying to shed sunlight on this group.
But sure, there’s a line to be drawn. News operations have to operate responsibly. Let’s see how this all plays out.
JK
“Has the will, AND the nads, to fight Dugger’s WOT. Question is, do I want to have anything to do with Dugger’s WOT?”
Bush makes steps to consolidate unchecked executive power. They have nothing to do with fighting terorists, as the global increase in terrorist attacks during the Bush presidency can prove.
“They have nothing to do with fighting terorists, as the global increase in terrorist attacks during the Bush presidency can prove.”
OK, now. Move those goal posts back. Keep coming back. Thats right. C’mon back. Keep coming.
Who are we kidding about killing terrorists. Progressives want to give them a trial and understand their angst and the root causes of their hostility to the US – a hostility, after all, many progressives share (though, perhaps, for different reasons). Hey, maybe some gubmint’ programs would help the little fellows.
Dugger
“That money is moving through the international banking system.”
Not necessarily, JWG:
“Terrorist networks are increasingly turning to cash smuggling to finance their activities, a top U.S. Treasury official says.
In September 22 testimony before a panel of the House of Representatives, Treasury Under Secretary Stuart Levey said that greater international vigilance of banks and other financial service providers has driven terrorist groups to seek other means of moving money across international borders.”
http://usinfo.state.gov/ei/Archive/2004/Sep/22-862152.html
Also, ever heard of Hawalas?
“What is a hawala?
Hawalas are unregulated international financing networks. Hawalas are not limited to specific geographic regions, and are found throughout the world. The word hawala means in trust in Hindi. The money-transfer system is used primarily by individuals to transfer cash, locally or overseas, to people who do not have access to a bank. Hawalas are commonly used by immigrants in Canada. Transfers are usually from one blood relative to another. They leave no paper trail and offer anonymity to both the originator and the recipient.”
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/banking/hawala.html
Right wing idiots want us to believe that we face an ruthless, ingenious enemy who are nevertheless stupid enough not to know that we’re trying to catch them. It truly boggles the mind.
“Right wing idiots want us to believe that we face an ruthless, ingenious enemy who are nevertheless stupid enough not to know that we re trying to catch them. It truly boggles the mind.”
Can you blame them? Based on the search for OBL, is the US really trying to catch them?
“Progressives want to give them a trial and understand their angst and the root causes of their hostility to the US – a hostility, after all, many progressives
share (though, perhaps, for different reasons).”
Go fuck yourself, asshole. You really feel no shame comparing your fellow Americans to Osama Bin Laden, do you?
Funny that the cons are all in a lather about the Times telling the world that we track finances of terrorists, but where was the outrage when Geraldo gave away troop movements on Fox?
Me thinks that this “controversy” is just the White House trying to keep the Malkinites from focusing on the abortion that this war has become. As usual, they fall for it hook, line and sinker.
Frame…
What boggles the mind is the willingness of those on the left to ignore people whose job it is to collect intelligence, who have clearly said in recent days that this program has yielded valuable intelligence.
It’s not Bush sifting through this information, you know.
How long are people on your side of the debate going to keep repeating this lie? Shinseki was not terminated by anyone but himself. His retirement was planned for more than two years before he left his post and the debate had no effect whatsoever on the his decision to leave. He served right up to the very last day of his long planned retirement.
Further, Shinseki was one of dozens Generals who were involved in pre-war strategy offering many different suggestions to the Secretary of Defense. Rumsfeld took the advice of other Generals over Shinseki’s. And only your crystal ball would be able to determine whether or not Shinseki’s view would have been any better.
It’s not like you’d be any more supportive of the war effort if the Shinseki plan had been followed. The only reason you cite Shinseki is to use it as a club against the Administration- even if the beginning of the premise is patently false.
Paul (Frame)
Answer honestly, if you possibly can.
Would you support capturing/killing OBL if it guaranteed 4 more years of complete republican domination of the white house and congress?
Damn, Zython, you beat me to it… I was going to talk about my rock that keeps polar bears away. Viva la refrence Simpsona!
You’ve got to be kidding me. This is really how you assholes think? If making you surgeon general for life would bring in OBL I’d support it. And let me add that we’ve had eight years of Republican dominated incompetence in the White House and Congress already. If we had to have another four to capture OBL I’d accept it but I’d have absolutely no doubt in my mind that President Frist would find some way to fuck it up and let him escape.
But let’s go back, pedro. Dugger says that I have the same hostility towards the US as the 9-11 hijackers. He is accussing me and every other proggressive American of the same hostility that plotted to kill 3,000 Americans. Presumably he thinks that we should face the same consequences as these terrorists as well. And you support him.
For the record , I don’t want to hear another goddamn thing from you maniacs about “name calling” or “seriousness.” Dugger leapt over the line and if he doesn’t back off he should be ashamed himself. You guys have been proven wrong time and time again (”Felons can become American Citizens!” “It;s more dangerous to live in Los Angeles County than Iraq”) but you have the gall to return with more and more lies and bile. Now Dugger accuses progressives of wanting to murder our fellow citizens. He’s scum. If you want to throw in with him be my guest. Assholes.
Sorry zython, the “elephant rock”analogy cuts both ways. I think you missed my friend Farris’s point, q’elle suprise…..
Now I am confused….if the thing you leftists hate almost more than anything else based on posting here, republicans can be allowed free run of the country for 4 years with OBL capture, why is it you would support the NYT spitting out information that might possibly endanger that capture.
The banking stuff was not a US government operation, it wasn’t on US soil, there are no constitutional issues with it. Why are’nt you screaming to the high heavens about it? Even if it is only 1% of the WOT, why would you support their printing this stuff?
In closing, the better analogy to our current run of terror free living here in the US is that of a lifeguard. you see, when there is a lifeguard, less people drown….
Oops! You just gave the game away. If the increase in global attacks prove Bush s record on international terrorism is lacking, surely the sudden outright end to domestic attacks prove Bush has been effective in keeping the homeland safe.
Do I have to use the rock/tiger analogy again?! Fine.
Let’s say I have a rock that keeps tigers away. How do you know it works? I don’t see any tigers, do you?
Basically, the abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence.
Would you support capturing/killing OBL if it guaranteed 4 more years of complete republican domination of the white house and congress?
Considering that the only other option that our idiotic 2 party political system allows are the sorry excuses of Democrats we have now, I’d say yes, and never look back.
Who are we kidding about killing terrorists. Progressives want to give them a trial
If you’re so positive that every suspected terrorist is for real, what do you have to lose by giving them a fair trial.
and understand their angst
Are you talking about terrorists or emos?
and the root causes of their hostility to the US – a hostility, after all, many progressives share (though, perhaps, for different reasons).
I’m not going to bother with the gardening analogy that led to the conclusive proof that drpedro’s is mentally unstable, but the point is that “killing der terrists” is only half the battle. We also need to prevent future terrorists from arrising, and that requires knowing why the terrorists we’re fighting are terrorists in the first place. The best way to do battle is to “know thy enemy”, but the cons want us to believe that fighting war effectively is only for the “bleeding heart left”.
Dugger
We all know you’re name’s dugger, it says that on the top of your post. You don’t need to sign them as well.
The neat schoolyard tiger / rock analogy might be appropriate, if we never caught any terrorists. But, of course, we have.
what do you have to lose by giving them a fair trial
Well, you see, in the real world, guilty people go free. Terrorists have to be captured sometimes ar great cost to life, limb and property.
And, the way to stop terrorism is to convince terrorists that death is inevitable,
Wealready know why they do what they do.
Perhaps if the right, weren t so mired in abject corruption and lies about this war, the news media wouldn t be so distrustful of everything they do.
A brief history, and rationale for a change in leadership in 2006, and 2008.
Warnings on WMD Fabricator were Ignored:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/24/AR2006062401081.html?nav=rss_politics
Cheney s Top Aide indicted:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/10/28/leak.probe/
Abu Ghraib, the History:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse
Haditha:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/
Guantanamo:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/06/25/the_road_from_guantanamo/
NSA has massive database of American s phone calls:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm
Haliburton:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20060620/cm_thenation/1593962_1
The GOP& & a nationwide running joke.
Get out. And stay out. We ll clean up your mess, like we always do.
JK
Take it up with Bill Keller, the editor of the NYT. He said it. If it’s wrong, then why has the SWIFT program been successful in tracking some terrorists? Just because it doesn’t track ALL terrorists doesn’t make it a stupid program. Again, proof as to why Democrats can’t be trusted with national security…you can’t even support basic, legal surveillance that works.
The neat schoolyard tiger / rock analogy might be appropriate, if we never caught any terrorists. But, of course, we have.
Seven terrorist wanna-bes caught in the U.S. What a real success!
Well, you see, in the real world, guilty people go free. Terrorists have to be captured sometimes ar great cost to life, limb and property.
So by your logic, no one should ever have a fair trial, since a few guilty people might go free. I’ll save this item and reverse the logic for when the next discussion about capital punishment.
And, the way to stop terrorism is to convince terrorists that death is inevitable,
…You do realize that these people consider dying for their “cause” to be a great honor. Then again, believing fear is the all-purpose political solution DOeS fit neatly into your worldview.
No attacks on US soil since 9-11, and yeat the terrorists kill more Americans than they ever did before. DrDoper and his ilk remind me of Lot from the bible.
“… why is it you would support the NYT spitting out information that might possibly endanger that capture.”
Because it doesn’t you dipshit.
You do realize that these people consider dying for their cause to be a great honor.
What you don’t realize, nitwit, is that noone wants to die. They think that death in their cause is desirable, not death as soon as they are discovered.
no one should ever have a fair trial, since a few guilty people might go free.
I didn’t say that, stupid. I meant terrorists caught in terrorist plots.
We’ve broken up more plots than one,and you know it. Stop trying to defend an indefensible position.
ahhh, yes….paul, the movie critic from a free newspaper in la-la land…now an expert in international banking and counter-terrorism…! LOL
“Uh & and a practicing surgeon married to a movie industry executive IS the resident international banking and counter terrorism expert & ?”
Glad to see you admit that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
And WTF do you know about it Pedro? Care to lay it all out?
frame,
I wish you would stop calling names.
And admit it. Many progressives hate America. Many hate Bush. Nobody, but nobody, hates like a progressive.
And just a little advice. Respect yourself a little more. Consistently signing your posts “idiot” says a lot about your self image.
BTW which progressive said: “American presence in Iraq is more dangerous to world peace than nuclear threats from North Korea or Iran, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., said to an audience of more than 200 in North Miami Saturday afternoon.”
Dugger
“I wish you would stop calling names.”
You’re a scumbag, Dugger. A total scumbag.
drpedro Jun 27th, 2006 at 9:16 am
ahhh, yes& .paul, the movie critic from a free newspaper in la-la land& now an expert in international banking and counter-terrorism& ! LOL
Uh … and a ‘practicing surgeon’ married to a movie industry executive IS the resident international banking and counter terrorism expert …?
Even heartier LOL!
frameone: Frank_D who, as I mentioned elsewhere appears now to be less dumb than you.
But is smarter than you.
“But is smarter than you.”
Of course you are Frank, of course you are.
“I simply parroted what the experts that I pay with my hard-earned tax dollars say about it.”
Really? The experts are concerened that this is a huge breach of national security or do you just mean the point people in the Bush administration who want to vastly expand the government’s ability to invade our privacy? Because some other experts don’t see it quite that way:
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2006/06/reports_of_us_monitoring_of_sw.php
Quote courtest of Frank_D who, as I mentioned elsewhere appears now to be less dumb than you.
“Do many progressives hate America?”
Hey, asshole: You accused me and every other proggressive American of same hostility towards America as the 9-11 terrorists. That’s beyond the pale and you ought to be ashamed of yourself. I’m not surprised, however, that you are not. You are a fascist who would use the war against terror to tear down the very democratic institutions that make this country so great. You’re a scumabg.
You’ll note that I have not tried to say I know ANYTHING about the subject. I simply parroted what the experts that I pay with my hard-earned tax dollars say about it.
It was our intrepid Paul, who argues in the face of our counter-terrorism experts….the same paul who has a hard time coming up with snappy come-backs, and is left impotently writing reply after reply until he can think something up!
frame,
Do many progressives hate America? I guess Democratic Party bigwig Murtha’s quote was not good enough for you? How about a good leftist professor:
We need to think very, very clearly about who the enemy is. The enemy is the United States of America and everyone who supports it.
Haunani-Kay Trask, a Professor at the Center for Hawaiian Studies at the University of Hawaii at Manoa
It will be easier if you just give in and admit I’m right. I can help you sort things out. I mean I’ve already helped you with that ‘idiot’ thing, nicht wahr?
Now go take on the day, your pal,
Dugger
Wow, nice selective quoting Dukker. Murtha is right. Because we are fucking things up in Iraq we don’t have the resources or diplomatic clout to do anything about North Korea or Iran. And that is on top of the new terrorist breeding, training, and financing ground Bush created in Iraq.
“Nobody, but nobody, hates like a progressive.”
Uh…
Ann Coulter:
We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren’t punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That’s war. And this is war.
Bob Dornan (Rep. R-CA):
Don’t use the word ‘gay’ unless it’s an acronym for ‘Got Aids Yet’
George Bush Sr. (President of the United States):
I don’t know that atheists should be considered citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.
Jerry Falwell:
AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah’s chariotters.
Falwell:
If you’re not a born-again Christian, you’re a failure as a human being.
Pat Buchanan:
Rail as they will about ‘discrimination,’ women are simply not endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western capitalism.
Yea, that’s some quality love for your fellow man there.
leroy,
Well, yes, Coulter gives them a run for the money.
But I still think she’s funny. Tasteless jokes, maybe.
Dugger, You think Ward Churchill was joking about Little Eichmans?
Dugger
Paul do you think the terrorists peruse the front page of the NYT more, or the archives of an obscure UN white paper more?
Have you hear the old (medical) saying ” If you don’t take a temperature you won’t find a fever”?
It suggests that if you don’t go looking for something you will never find it.
according to the people that I pay to do counter-terrorism, the slimes story hurt us in our fight against terrorism.
Back to giving “two-thumbs up!” to the latest B-movies for you Paulie….
Dugger Jun 27th, 2006 at 10:26 am
frame, Respect yourself a little more. Consistently signing your posts idiot says a lot about your self image.
Perhaps it depends on your perspective, Dugger. Most of frameone’s posts are aptly ended with “Idiot”. What do you figure you’re accomplishing signing your posts repeatedly with your name and a quote? Some would consider it tiresome and arrogant. Which, of course, says a lot about your self image.
What you don t realize, my liege, is that noone wants to die. They think that death in their cause is desirable, not death as soon as they are discovered.
Of course they don’t WANT to die, but they aren’t afaid to die, and as such, threats of death aren’t going to faze them. I guess “battling for the hearts and minds” means “putting regular people in such a state of fear that they’re afraid to go outside”.
I didn t say that, stupid. I meant terrorists caught in terrorist plots.
If you bothered to read the “By your logic,” bit (which I can certainly assume you didn’t), I was following your logic to the next logical step. If we give serial killers a fair trial, why shouldn’t terrorists also get the same right? After all, the only real defining differences is the motive. Like I said before, though, I be sure to save this tidbit when you eventually go to defend capital punishment.
Zython, you are pathetic…
How many Japanese and Germans did we “put on trial”? Didn’t we kill millions of them?
As to whether ot not I defend capital punishment, I will say this much:
I most certainly do not oppose capital punishment for terrorists or serial killers, all other things being equal (state of mind, circumstances, premeditation, malice, etc.)
I don’t care to take the argument beyond that, and I am not the least bit concerned about your opinion on that subject.
NOTE: If you bothered to read the By your logic, bit (which I can certainly assume you didn t), I was following your logic to the next logical step.
You were, and are, wrong, and that’s why I didn’t “address” it. As I have said nearly a dozen times on this thread, if you want to know what I think, you can ask me. Don’t try to tell me what I think.
I don t care to take the argument beyond that, and I am not the least bit concerned about your opinion on that subject.
Another forfeit, huh? Talk about a sore loser. Lesee…
Zython: 23
Dugger, Frank_D, & Save_Ferris: 0
Zython acting like a jerk: 2 for 2