’)Bush’s speech is dying on a vine right now. The funniest part – and I don’t think the networks picked it up but I saw it on WashingtonPost.com – was the false start where Bush got about halfway through the first paragraph and had to stop. The cons simply aren’t buying the dog and pony show of sending a few National Guard troops to the border, and they hate even the hint of a guest worker program.
Could he hit 19%?
(Interestingly this is one of the few issues where I more or less am on the same side as Bush, which does nothing to endear him to the hearts of the hard right nativist racists)
Either he has gone completely feelance and off-reservation, or Rove truly
is distracted by what appears to be his imminent indictment. Bush is
reeling and casting without any bait. That 7 pound perch may be the last
fish he catches in this lifetime.
I love the guest worker program with no chance for citizenship. Way to take an illicitly exploited underclass and make it an officially exploited underclass. Awesome.
No real “reform” will be passed, by the way. It is like the lobbying “reform” bill.
Problem is, it’s lots off fury signifying nothing. It’s an attempt to shore up the base (troop deployment) while signaling to the business community that it is business as usual (low # of troops, guest workers). There are a few principles worth implementing, but the pResident isn’t the person to make it happen.
He lost the rest of his base today. They wanted to have undocumented workers herded into train cars in the dead of night, and Chimpie didn’t offer that.
President Roosevelt was right!…
In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith, becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else for it is an outrage to discriminate against any s…
Credit Bush for saying that the undocumented are “beyond the reach and protection of the law.”
It’s not a big thing, but it made me happy to hear him put it that way.
Mr. Bush moves pins on a map and announces, “See, that’s my grand strategy! Implement it!”
The pins are not very happy, and the pin supply is running low because we stuck them all over the map of Iraq.
Not that this is any of Mr. Bush’s concern. He’s the president, and he has grand strategies. Somebody else buys the pins.
Oh, come on lefties. Bush is articulating the same sort of “border control plan” you would applaud if Kerry or Gore suggested it.
I wonder how temporarily our troops will have to be at the borders.
As has been pointed out elsewhere, he doesn’t even seem to have an exit strategy for our troops stationed in this country.
Wow, what a surprise. Oliver gave Bush’s speech a failing grade.
How much did you have written before he gave it? Before transcripts were published? Before excerpts were released?
I have this image in my head of Oliver writing 90% of this as soon as Bush made his announcement, then adding in a couple of specific details and a link to the video as soon as it was over.
J.
On MSNBC last night they pointed out something odd: Where are we getting these troops? At the pace Bush is asking for, would;t that require removing some from overseas?
I have this image in my head of Oliver writing 90% of this as soon as Bush made his announcement, then adding in a couple of specific details and a link to the video as soon as it was over.
Considering that well over 90% of the kimchee Putsch spewed last night is the same old same old, can you blame him?
I would also like to point out that well over 90% of the response from JayTea could have been cut and pasted from previous anti-OW propaganda in his earlier comments. Kinda ironic considering how he’s ragging on somebody else for the same old same old…
Kinda like Kim, eh?
JayTea,
So you didn’t like the speech either, eh?
There are 444,000 National Guard troops. 16% of them are actively engaged in some manner in the WoT (which includes deployment to Iraq).
Tom, it’s called “irony.” Also, Bush (lemme correct your spelling there, friend) did put forth some new ideas. The increased agents, the National Guard, and the wall all were new from him.
But no, mr. curmudgeon, I didn’t like it. He said a bunch of new things, then weaselled out of them. It gave me flashbacks — to the Clinton administration, which brought weaselling to a new high art form, and to 1986, when Ted Kennedy gutted the enforcement aspects of the last Great Immigration Reform Act.
It seems that every 20 years or so, we “reform” our immigration policies, and then the number of illegal aliens increases geometrically. It happened after the 1965 Immigration Reform Act (sponsored by Ted Kennedy), the 1986 Immigration Reform Act (gutted by Ted Kennedy), and now it’s happening yet again.
In 1965, there were about a million illegal aliens. In 1986, 21 years after it was “fixed,” we had 6 million. 20 years after THAT, we have between 11 and 20 million.
Will we even have a defined nation by the time 2026 rolls around? And will the numbers of illegals break nine figures?
The one hope I have is that Ted Kennedy will most likely NOT be in the Senate when that year comes around.
J.
“Will we even have a defined nation by the time 2026 rolls around?”
Classic. Once again the nationalist, race-baiting bullshit of a bunch of quivering doofuses will out. You threw out a lot of numbers there Jay. Between 1965 and today how weak has our national identity become? How exactly has this massive flood of immigrants dissipated our national character? I’ve lived in Southern California the vast majority of my life. If I were an idiot such as yourself I’d be blogging “from the the front lines” where I was bravely facing off “the invading enemy” with binoculars and a keyboard fighting for “the New American Revolution.” Or some such infantile bullshit. All more war analogies to trumped up so a bunch of loosers can puff their chests and say “Look Mommy, I’m protecting America just like Daddy did.” Sure, kid, sure. I’ve been hearing it all my life. Everytime the economy slowed another wave of anti-immigrant bullshit would break over talk radio right on cue.
California is much a part of America as it was in 1965. It’s a wonderful place to live, work and raise kids. You should visit one of these days to see just how much of your nativist bullshit is just that. Of course, we all know how you feel about visiting “front lines.”
Will we even be a defined nation by 2026. Sheesh. What a moron.
God, what tools these cons are: Bush makes a speech you don’t like, but somehow it’s all Clinton and Kennedy’s fault. Losers.
Bush’s speech may be him throwing all of you overboard- you are dying out, hispanics are becoming more powerful in American society. In a few short years, your numbers won’t be enough to elect Republicans.
This speech could be your pResident saying to you that you no longer matter, we don’t need you anymore.
Maybe the anger from the right is the realization that they have been dumped.
frame, one of the key defining elements of a nation is its borders. Look at a map, for christ’s sake.
The issue is profoundly simple: do we, as a nation, have the same right as every other nation to decide who does and who does not enter? That is the crux of the argument — the government says “you cannot enter freely, but must follow our rules,” the illegal aliens say “screw you, we’re coming however we want, whenever we want, wherever we want, and you don’t have the right to stop us.”
It’s the hallmark of dictatorships that people fight, struggle, even die to get out. With the United States, it’s just the opposite. But for how long can we continue to absorb it?
And if you’d like to dispute Ted Kennedy’s role, be my guest. It’s all a part of the historical record. In fact, if you need a good laugh, look up the predictions and promises he made when he backed the 1965 Act — EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM HAS BEEN PROVEN FALSE.
J.
J.
“the illegal aliens say screw you, we re coming however we want, whenever we want, wherever we want, and you don t have the right to stop us.
No Jay. This is not what the illegal aliens are saying. These people don’t want to “screw” America. They aren’t greedy opportunists. It’s typical, however, of the racist nativists among us to assign this kind of tone to people who come here to escape a grinding poverty. It makes it all the easier to start mainstreaming ideas like “cattle cars” and “camps” and militarizing the border.
What’s truly laughable is when you dipshits start talking about borders as if GE, General Motors, WalMart or any other major corporation you care to name is concerned with border anymore. We have an illegal immigration problem not because companies in our borders want cheap labor. We have an illegal immigration problem because US companies and companies the world over exploit workers in countries like Mexico even worse.
When you guys want to get serious about solving the immigration problem you’ll stop talking about fences, militarizing the border and throwing people who want to work to feed their families in jail. And you’ll definitely stop spinning your paranoid fantasies about a United States overun by hordes of brown people.
In their place you’ll be talking about demanding that all of our trade agreements recognize a universal minimum wage, the right to strike, support for labor unions, worker safety rules and environmental protections. These people come here because of the economic environments created by US trade policies that favor free flowing, borderless capital that doesn’t give shit about anything except finding another cheap, vulnerable labor supply to exploit.
If Bush’s proposal for a temporary worker program goes through it will create a permanent underclass with no hope for getting ahead. You guys keep talking about not wanting to reward “criminals.” A temporary worker program without a track to citizenship does nothing but reward companies that have been hiring illegals with a legally exploitable workforce.
But then again, you aren’t even talking about economics. You’re simply afraid that one day there may be more brown people than white people living in the United States.
Paul (frameone) says…
“California is much a part of America as it was in 1965. It s a wonderful place to live, work and raise kids. ”
Yea, right. So why is it that 3.5% more families are leaving california that coming? You say, “but, the population is increasing!”…and you are correct….all foreign born (maybe an illegal or two paul?)
Middle and upperclass are leaving California in droves. In Arizona, 375 new californias are coming in ….EVERY DAY!
California, LA in particular, is a pit. The illegal, and even legal immigrants are by and large unskilled. The city has become a land of haves and have-nots. Rich movie people on one side, and everyone else on the other. The funniest part is that the limosine liberals are making all that possible. And La Raza (The Race (!)) is loving it…..
Caucasians are a MINORITY in LA County….hey, maybe there will be some sort of “minority” affirmative action, eh Paul. Set you up for some kind of PhD in moving pictures scholarship!
OK, frame, how about “screw your laws and regulations and policies.” Better?
Also, frame, I’m arguing that the law be applied equally to everyone. You are apparently arguing that certain laws should or should not be applied to certain people based on their national origin. I’m the racist?
I’m against the violators of the law coming in and taking under-the-table jobs, not paying taxes, and getting jobs for less than the prevailing wages, depriving lower-income people (of whom I can argue I’m one of, and certainly have been in the past) of jobs that might help them achieve a measure of independence, pride, and self-sufficiency. I’m the tool of big business?
I’m all in favor of increasing immigration quotas and streamlining the process, while you want to piss on the shoes of those who are doing it right and following the rules and waiting for their turn, and I’m the hateful one?
I said nothing about “identity politics” or “race” or “brown skins.” I said that a nation is defined by its borders, and there are a lot of people who are arguing that the United States has no right to regulate those borders. Why don’t you think we have the right to control our borders? And we’ve seen the future of the current policies in western Europe, in the Balkans, and in Africa. It’s not likely to happen in my lifetime, but I don’t want to see future generations descend into that kind of chaos and anarchy.
I’ve never liked the “guest worker” programs, but for different reasons than you. I think it’s incredibly insulting to say that “there are jobs Americans won’t do.” Remove the crutch of cheap illegal labor, force businesses to abide by laws and regulations regarding working conditions and minimum-wage laws, truly let the free market work, and there will be plenty of Americans lining up for those jobs.
J.
” You are apparently arguing that certain laws should or should not be applied to certain people based on their national origin.”
Wrong. I’m arguing that some laws are unfair and unjust and so should be enforced differently than other laws. It is absolutely unjust to promote trade policies that create poverty around the world and then punish those people who are victims of the poverty we helped to create.
You talk abotu fairness and the free market. Ha. The free market is working, Jay, and illegal immigration is a direct result of it. This government has promoted policies in Mexico and elsewhere that have created a permanent underclass in those countries. Now that this underclass is coming here to find a better a life you want to treat them like criminals.
You talk about current policies in Europe and Africa. Germany has exactly the kind of temporary worker program that Bush proposed: We’ll exploit your labor but give you stake whatsoever in the system or the country that you labor for. If you want to stop “balkanization” you’ve got to give people a stake in the system.
I don’t have a problem with regulating the border but let’s not be hypocrites about it.
duros, that’s a given. It’s just so simultaneously candy-assed and dangerous that it deserves attention. “Rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic” would be appropriate, but frame would say the Titanic is Bush’s poll numbers, while I say it’s the illegal alien crisis.
Note that I did NOT say “immigrants.” I cheerfully welcome those people who come to the United States — as long as they get in line and obey the laws and the procedures established. It’s the line-cutters that piss me off — and largely in defense of those who are getting cut in front of.
It’s a simple law of economics: whatever you reward, you get more of; whatever you punish, you get less of. We’re rewarding the lawbreakers at the expense of the law-abiding folks.
J.
You guys don’t see this as a political move to shore up flagging Republicans in an election year?
Or is it too early for that?
“We re rewarding the lawbreakers at the expense of the law-abiding folks.”
Again, it’s alway about punishing poor people, never the politicians and CEOs who create the system of inequality that produces the poverty in the first place. Yup, Jay, you’re a true hero.
“Wrong. I m arguing that some laws are unfair and unjust and so should be enforced differently than other laws.”
So much for the heretical notion of actually CHANGING the laws, huh, frame? It’s so much easier to pick and choose which laws are enforced, and which are not.
And who gets to choose which laws are and are not enforced? Why, it must be those who are properly enlightened, and sensitive, and correct.
No, thanks.
J.
Man, for a second I thought you were talking about Shot in the Dark. But then you’ve never pissed your credibility away behind some bushes.
Though you occasionally forget to put the seat back down on the credibility toilet.
JadeGold chimes in, as usual, with… absolutely nothing, as usual, beyond insults and unfounded allegations. Because it’s so much simpler than actually discussing the issues.
It’s a remarkably efficient debating tactic. Jade gives his/her/its arguments, then makes up stuff to attribute to me. It’s a guarantee of success, since he/she/it is writing the scripts.
Pity I don’t feel like playing along, so enjoy your monologue. It’s an interesting form of rhetorical masturbation.
J.
Why don’t you just come out and say what you think, frame? The would-be immigrants who go to our embassies, fill out the forms, go through the interviews, and in general demonstrate their respect for our laws are idiots, and they should just hop the border and get here any way they can? Do you have so much contempt for them?
We have the most open and generous immigration policy not only in the world, but in history. But that still isn’t enough for you. You can’t come up with ways to change it to make it more to your liking, but just want them to ignore the law when it doesn’t suit you.
One final note: no, it’s not about “punishing the poor” to me. No more than it’s all about rewarding the criminals to you. That’s lazy thinking. Poverty is no more ennobling than it is debasing.
(BTW, that last bit was an attempt to actually elevate the tone of discourse and reduce the personal attacks. I hope you agree that’s a good thing.)
J.
“Do you have so much contempt for them?”
A post got eaten but in the meantime, why don’t you ask my Canadian fiance? We’re beginning the whole drawn out and EXPENSIVE (if you hire an immigration lawyer which everyone highly recommends) legal immigration process when we get married in the fall.
As usual, JayIDTea trots aout all the blast-faxed GOP talking points.
Why is immigration such a big deal all of a sudden? Especially when we’re at “war?”
The answer is simple; AWOL George’s poll numbers are waaay down, Iraq’s a mess, Katrina was mishandled so badly, and most of his illegitimate administration is either under indictment or will be shortly.
Capturing OBL and defeating OBL is too hard–so AWOL George is cracking down on those illegal immigrants whose major crime seems to be working hard at jobs American won’t take and pumping money into the US economy.
Frankly, there is a solution to illegal immigration—-but the Repugs don’t want it. Illegal immigration would dry up tomorrow if the US cracked down on companies and firms that so eagerly hire and recruit illegals.
But Repugs like the idea of some fat white guy pointing a gun at brown-skinned folks.
Two posts eaten. Must be Gremlins.
“Do you have so much contempt for them?”
My fiance is Canadian and we’re beginning the exact process you describe this fall after we get married. Neither she nor I feel that amnesty or a legitimate worker program (with a path to citizenship) is unfair to us because we recognize that the whole “fairness” part of this debate is just another dodge to avoid the real role that the US government plays in creating the immigration problem in the first place. It’s totally hypocritical to put in place trade policies that allow US companies to exploit Mexican labor in Mexico and then condemn those Mexicans who come here to escape the poverty and environmental disasters that we helped to create.
I don’t have a problem with enforcing the laws and arresting people at the border for crossing illegally. But let’s recognize why those people are crossing the border in the first place. And it isn’t because they’re greedy, disrespectful monsters who want to destroy our way of life. Talk about lazy fucking thinking, Jay. I’m sure immigration really burns you up if you sit around all day imagining that the people picking strawberries, washing dishes and emptying your office trash cans are secretly thumbing their noses at you.
I have yet to hear any one on the anti-immigrant side of this debate discuss trade policyand its impact on immigration. Maybe I wouldn’t be so inclined to consider anti-immigrant groups a bunch of racists if they spent more time talking about the minimum wage, labor unions, environmental protection etc. etc. instead of entertaining paranoid fantasies about Aztlan. Please. Grow. The. Fuck. Up.
um, lots of typos there but “undotted eye”? Dyslexia is my muse.
frame, I actually sympathize. Although there is a part of me that’s a little thrilled to see it happen to someone on the OTHER side for a change…
J.
I should add that our immigration lawyer costs $3k minimum, just to get the ball rolling. That should hopefully also be the full extent of it but if any unforseen complications come up it’ll get pricey fast. Obviously one doesn’t need a lawyer to go through the process but it’s easy to get abused by immigration interviewers without representative. One undotted eye and you could be backto the end of the line. Now if you think it’s fair that people who can afford immigration lawyers have an easier time of it, fine. I can take advantage of that little “fluke” in our system but others can’t. Others need to find a way to feed their families today, not three or four or five years from now. So go ahead and talk about fairness if you want Jay. You’re just blowing a lot of smoke.
Sure, whatever. Posts up.
First of all, frame, congrats to you and your fiancee’. And good luck. You’ll understand if I don’t offer to be a character witness for you two — you most likely wouldn’t want my endorsement.
You present a compelling argument for changing the system, which I’ve been for all along. I am a big believer in working within the system, of changing the rules when they’re wrong instead of just ignoring them. To have laws on the books that are freely flouted decreases the respectability and credibility of all laws, and carried to its logical extreme ends with every single person having their own personal penal code.
So why don’t you argue for changing the law? Why do you think it’s fine for you and your fiancee’ to be forced to obey the law, but not others?
Sorry to personalize it so much — I normally eschew that — but you made an example of yourself.
WHen confronted with a law that you believe is wrong, you have three choices: live with it; violate it and accept the consequences; or change it. Ignoring it is not an acceptable option.
And finally, you say that the government is to blame for the immigration problem. I think it’s a confluence of government interests (both here and abroad), business interests, human self-interest, and a bunch of other factors. But I don’t give a tinker’s damn whose fault it is. I just want it fixed, and fixed now. We can play the blame game later. When the lifeboat is springing a leak, you patch it first, THEN toss overboard the ditzy blonde with the stiletto heels.
J.
“So why don t you argue for changing the law?”
There’s a post awaiting moderation but on this I jus have to say: Why don’t you tell that Bush? His whole argument for the existence of his NSA prgrams is that he has the authority to violate federal statutes like FISA because they put an unconsitutional limit on his power. But Bush isn’t trying to challenge the law in the courts or asking Congress to change it. He’s simply ignoring it. He is doing exactly what you claim you despise the most. But once again a conservative (please stop with the “I’m a moderate” crap) comes to the defense of the powerful while stomping all over the powerless. So typical.
“… violate it and accept the consequences …”
And what gives you the idea that illegal aliens aren’t paying the consequences of being illegal? They risk their lives to come here and spend everyday in constant fear that they’re going to get picked up and sent home. That fear makes them vulnerable to unscrupulous employers and others who would take advantage of them. But for many of them their situation is still better off here than there.
A few more personal tidbits: Once upon a time I knew an Australian girl who offered me or my roommate a hefty figure if one of us would marry her so she could get citizenship. She was an actress and wanted to be famous. The worst deprivation she faced if we refused was she’d have to go back to Sydney to a comfortable middle class life. Neither of us were interested because it was against the law, the risks were too great and she was a vain, venal idiot. She eventually found some other schmuck to do it and went on to the kind of low level celebrity that helps Access Hollywood pad out its 30 minutes. She’s an example of the kind of person you should really reserve your bile for because she IS thumbing her nose at you. Not the woman who scrubs the toilets in your office after you go home.
Every other week or so at my day job I go over 0-1 visa applications from companies looking to hire foreign workers, “artists of extraordinary ability,” to fill jobs that pay on average $52/hour and up. These immigrants have major corporations and heavy legal firms behind them to get them into the country. They’re the international leaders in their fields and their names carry big cache in the industry so the companies put the money into getting them but they are essentially taking jobs that there are Americans trained to do. Here’s a situtation in which giving highly paid jobs to foreigners that Americans WOULD GLADLY DO IN A HEARTBEAT is perfectly acceptable, perfectly legal and perfectly overlooked by the anti-immigrant crowds.
I’m not talking about blaming anybody. What I’m saying is that if you want to fix the system don’t do it on the backs of the people in the most desperate circumstances, who struggle the most to overcome those circumstances and who take the biggest risks in doing so. You keep using these analogies that suggest you have no idea what people who come here illegally from Mexico or further south actually go through to get here, let alone what they actually contribute to this society once they get here. Ditzy blonde in stilletos? Come on. I’ve had this same argument with idiot after idiot who wants to describe these people as criminals, freeloaders, “enemy combatants” etc. etc. None of you seem capable of stepping outside the bullshit rhetoric and seeing these people as PEOPLE who want to work to better their lives but found themselves trapped in an impossible situation that WE, through our trade policies, helped to create. And these people do contribute to our society both economicallt and culturally. They and their children do assimilate. Esepcially their children, just like every other wave of immigration in the past, it takes a generation or to to achieve assimilation. If you keep focussing on the new arrivals, as the anti-immigrant forces do, you won’t see that assimilation occurring. But trust me, it’s happening in California and all over the place.
The bottom line is this: Anti-immigrant forces have presented a distorted picture of the illegal immigrant community and so they present solutions that come down hard on the symptoms of the larger problem rather than it’s cause: economic imbalance that the US itself has helped to create and has a vested interest in maintaining. They overlook the actual real cause of illegal immigration while doing everything they can to denigrate hardworking, otherwise honest people who only want to take care of themselves and their families.
frame, that’s attempting to change the subject. But I will only point out that the NSA stories seem to be rapidly dissolving in the absence of confirmed facts.
As far as the illegal aliens “paying the price” of being illegal: that’s the price for being SUCCESSFUL criminals. The real price, the only one that counts, is the one that is imposed by the government, meaning arrest and deportation. To use an example that ought to drive you nuts, bank robbers “pay the price” when they risk getting shot and killed. I once read about a pedophile and would-be child molester who grabbed the wrong 14-year-old boy — and got his ass kicked by the young black belt.
Again, although I suspect you won’t accept or believe it, but I really do hope your fiancee’ gets through the process soon, and without much more discomfort. It’s people like her that remind me that the ratcheting up of enforcement I repeatedly call for must be paired with genuine reform — including things like increased quotas and streamlining the process.
J.
“The real price, the only one that counts, is the one that is imposed by the government, meaning arrest and deportation.”
Okay Jay. So now no illegal immigrants are being arrested and deported? And ya, if you can’t see anything but criminals when you see the people who harvest your food, clean your office, wash your car or do any of a hundred other difficult, low paying jobs that just about the most pathetic thing I have ever heard. That you think we should be basing policy your own tragic blindspot is why you can indeed take your concern and shove it up your ass.
And in case you think I’m being harsh, it’s just a tad disgusting that the “plight” of two white middle class people has moved you so deeply while all you can muster for those considerably less fortunate than my fiance and I is xenophobia. Truly pathetic.
frame, last time I checked, there were 12 million or so illegal aliens who haven’t been arrested and deported. Or did I miss something?
And I am surprised to see you endorsing the de facto slavery being practiced. Yeah, some prices might rise if we get real on border control, but big whoop. Maybe then business might actually start paying REAL wages to workers, LIVING wages, if they can’t count on the cheap (substantially below minimum wage) labor provided by illegals.
But on your attempts to personalize things: my workplace is cleaned by me and my co-workers on a daily basis. I wash my own car. And if you double the labor costs on the heads of lettuce I buy, the price might go up all of a dime.
In brief, I don’t buy into the scare stories of the economic havoc that would be wreaked by getting rid of our current slaves, and I’m willing to risk it. I think the costs — both economic and social — of having this continue are much, much higher.
J.