Pedro,
All meaningless sophistry to avoid the point. People make or don’t make laws or break them. We’re talking about people. You think it’s ok to torture if it supports your team, I support striving for the principles upon which the country was founded, including when it means making a tough decision to oppose your own leaders, who after all, are the only leaders we can oppose because we live here.
And you snide dick, it’s res ipsa loquitur. On top of that, it’s practically meaningless, just another degree of proof needed. Evidence, not rhetoric.

But I am absotively damn sure of one thing, if you got hit dead in the chest with a 747 on 9/11, it still doesn’t give you the right to tell me to “shut the fuck up”

Whatever your problem is, I have no plans to help you solve it.

And, for the record, potty mouth, I wasn’t lecturing anyone about 9/11, least of all you.

I’ve never even seen your name on this blog.

You claim you are new to this. If that is so, then you have adopted a “tried and true” tactic, used with astonishing regularity around here.

Let’s look again at what I said, eh?

I can tell you that the the idea that it was patriotic to dissent, or worse, the highest form of patriotism is to dissent wasn t even dreamed of until the late 60 s.

In no case did I say that dissent was new. For a look at how the newborn United States handled rebellion, may I suggest you investigate Shays’ Rebellion?

Contrast Shays’ behavior with that of Lucy Stone.

I thought we had turned the subject of the thread to whether or not Bush is a liar — a turn in which I have not I have not participated.

Why? Because all politicians lie. As the great philosopher of the “boogie woogie” school of philosophy, John Lee Hooker said, “it’s in ‘em, and it’s got to come out…”

I’m appalled by this thread. Finger pointing, name calling, yadda, yadda.

We are all Americans here. We all love the country. We all can agree that the people of this country does not equate the country as a whole (can’t we?). we show that love of country in a variety of different ways. It is neither treasonous (sp?) nor patriotic. It is how we show our love of country.
Someof us are saying that we disagree with the Republicans. The Republican party happens to hold all the cards at the moment. That is not the same thing as saying we disagree with America.
Now, all of you just calm down.
Frank, I was reffering to the Declaration of Independence where jefferson advocates the overthrow of tyranny. I was mistaken about the inscription. Sorry about that. My point was that dissention is not a new idea, as you postulated.

Yes there is a difference – just like there is a difference between lying and telling the truth:

“If there’s a leak out of my administration, I want to know who it is” – GWB, 2/11/2004

Until the leftists can see the difference between America, a place that criminalizes mistreatement, and a pre-Saddam Iraq, you will all be  America Laster s . It is obvious from your and your leftist fellow travelers rhetoric.

Disagreement with GWB and the Republican Congress and then expressing one s beliefs and concern is called dissent. Get over it already.

The juror were stunned by video of people jumping out of the WTC Towers? Shall I tell you my guess as to why? Because the press, that supposedly supports the President according to you liberals, hasn t thought to show those planes slamming into those buildings in years! When was the last time you saw it?

Take a step back.

The jurors were stunned by the video because the video is stunning. Show it once every few years or show it daily, it’s stunning either way.

But I understand about that. I see the attacks every day. You see, I actually live in New York City. I was on the 59th Street bridge when the attacks happened. I don’t need the media to show me the fireballs, I saw them myself.

And frankly, I’ve got no time for some guy in New Rochelle to presume to lecture about 9/11. If you want to talk about being here and living through it, speak up. If you want to talk about the friends and neighbors you lost, speak up. If you want to talk about thanking the Gods because you have a relative who is alive today only because he was sick as a dog that day, speak up. If you want to talk about waiting at a hospital ER for the wounded who couldn’t fit into St. Vincent’s and realizing that their failure to appear could only mean that they weren’t that many people who were merely wounded, speak up.

But if all you’ve got to say about it is what you saw on TV, shut the f*ck up.

As to your article, as I’ve said I don’t need it to want to do something. But I’ve got this thing about doing something effective. Between Murtha and you, Murtha’s not the worm — being in Iraq isn’t doing jack shit about 9/11. Never has, never will.

You are welcome to continue believing that attacking republicans equals attacking “America”, but no serious person supports that premise.

I have no problem tearing down the whole team if the whole team is bad. But the whole team is not bad, and we don’t advocate criticising innocent people. But addressing that would not allow you to remain on message.

Our disagreement is not about ignoring the things that need changing, it is about what needs changing. Your side supports, for example, torture. We don’t. Don’t equate that disagreement with “tearing down the whole team”.

No apologize for lying about us finding WMD.

Countries CAN torture people. If there are no laws against it, if it is condoned and in fact order by its leaders. Nazi Germany, and Iraq under Hussein are examples.

Words have meaning, laws have meaning.

Until the leftists can see the difference between America, a place that criminalizes mistreatement, and a pre-Saddam Iraq, you will all be “America Laster’s”. It is obvious from your and your leftist fellow travelers rhetoric.

Res Ispsa Loquitor

You leftists jumped on Abu Ghraib as evidence that “america” tortures people, rather that what it was….some american soldiers mistreated prisoners, and were convicted of such.

Rather than seeing the truth for what it is, you attempt to twist every possible issue into an “america is bad, and it’s all the republicans fault”, which is tantamount to tearing down your own country, all for the sake of propping up your political parties unpopular opinions.

Being a team player ain’t a bad thing, and it also doesn’t mean you have to ignore the things that need changing, but can do it without tearing down the whole team…

By the way, isn’t this a wingnut?

Pedro,
You seem to be admitting to being a “team” player. I feel that when bad people do bad things in the name of our country we have a duty to bad mouth them. And who cares about motives? I think everyone here will admit that the Republicans are probably deluded enough to believe their own shit, like you. And like you, they feel it’s ok to lie to achieve their goals because they’ve got some “feeling” about what the right thing to do is.

“Hows that? By wallowing in it s war dead?” — drpedro

“Maybe opposing a war is not treason. Maybe trying to stop the war by illegal means, is.” — Frank

“Jk you see you have the liberal problem. words have meaning, you don t get to assign meanings to them& ” drpedro

“Sorry, repack, it does no such thing. You re just another guy with an opinion.” — Frank

“Ollie when was the last time you strapped yourself into a supersonic fighter and hung your precious hide out on the line? Been upside down at 500 feet and 500 knots? well, our president has& and saying he has not served over and over again won t change it.” — drpedro

OW, you should sell tickets to this place. Call it “When Wingnuts Collide.”

I don’t know what Iraqi child rearing has to do with anything, so I am going to have to ignore that non-sequitor.

The term “thinking outside of the box” doesn’t mean a complete relativism regarding the definition of words….communication is impossible if we don’t all work from the same definition. Perhaps that is the problem I have communicating with leftists…

MJB
supporting your country doesn’t mean turning a blind eye when there is clearly something wrong. It does mean you don’t bad mouth it at every turn, you don’t always assume the worst motives to your leaders, and it really doesn’t mean tearing down the elected leaders of your country in order to try to put your own power structure in place….

Is there a difference between a defense attorney fighting like crazy to keep his client from being convicted, and one who helps his client escape from jail?

Check out the inscription inside the rotunda of the Jefferson Memorial sometime, if you think that’s true.