Conservatives have pushed the mantra that to wave the flag of another nation - particularly Mexico - is to be an agent of that nation (rather than what all right thinking Americans know as ethnic pride). Looks like Bush is playing for the other side.
Of course, it’s time for the right to quit pretending what their motivations are and simply admit that they’re motivated by racism, like these people did with Sen. Salazar in Colorado.
“Poisonous,” sometimes racist messages have poured into Sen. Ken Salazar’s office since he has taken a more outspoken role backing a controversial guest-worker plan.
As Senators continued haggling Tuesday over contentious immigration reform legislation, Salazar, D-Colo., took to the floor of the U.S. Senate Tuesday to call for civility in the debate.
Salazar, one of only three Hispanic Senators, said hate-filled attacks have been among the barrage of lobbying calls, letters and e-mails his office has received in recent days.
“I am not a racist against Mexicans _ I want all minorities kicked out,” one message said.
Salazar said that another message told him: “Put all the illegal aliens on trains and deport them out of the country. They come in vans. Rail cars would be a step up.”
Another e-mail said Salazar should “go back to Mexico,” even though his family has been here for centuries and helped settle the New Mexico capital city of Santa Fe before the United States was even a country.
I’m beginning to think that before this situation deteriorates the president ought to tell the racists in his party to shut the hell up and stop being so un-American.
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Some yahoo thinks Salazar should “go back to Mexico”?
Haw. There are people with Spanish surnames in this state whose families were here to greet the first Anglo settlers.
I’m sure that Bush’s view on this issue is due in large part to the fact that he was the governor of Texas for six years, a state with a very large native Hispanic population and a sizable number of illegal Mexican immigrants. He obviously listened to his Hispanic constituency when he was governor. It seems to me that a lot of people forget that.
I wonder if these people are sending Alberto Gonzales the same messages.
So it is disloyal to fly a foreign flag at a gathering now?
Someone better tell the Irish not to fly the Irish flag St. Patricks Day.
Or tell the Italians not to fly the Italian flag on Columbus Day.
Or Southerners to fly the Confederate flag.
Why is it that only Latinos are disloyal when they fly their flag? This is another tempest in a teapot, a made for Fox News issue which gets a certain segment of America up in arms.
On the other hand, a more rational review of the situation says that Bush is a lot closer to the right answer to this problem than the racists in the Tancredo camp.
I don’t approve of “guest workers”, as it is tantamount to slavery (workers who have no rights in this country), but I do approve of an expanded Visa program, with a path to naturalization for all current illegals who have already established ties with the US (i.e. have children born here, long-term employees, etc.).
I am concerned, however, that the demand for illegals will not stop even as today’s illegals are normalized. One of the big reasons that corps hire illegals is because they are a compliant workforce, who won’t complain to OSHA, unionize, or ask for simple benefits like workmans comp. Unless we punish corporations severely, all a “guest worker” program will do is accelerate the flow of low skill immigrants.
Once again, Oliver is all over the rampant Republican and Chimpy McSmurkyburton racism on display in the current ILLEGAL immigration debate (this is not to be confused with any racism being exhibited by many of the illegal immigrants and their activists and apologists).
But I also noticed he’s been strangely silent about Rep. Cynthia McKinney’s absurd claims of racism (and her fellow Democrats’ silence on the issue) following her physical attack on a member of the US Capitol Police for doing his job. It’s been almost a week now, and still… zip.
Is pointing out racism only required when it reflects badly on the people you hate?
So a few yahoos send email messages to a Senator and that’s the PROOF Ollie needs to slap anybody who wants something done about illegal immigration and isn’t a Democrat, as a racist.
Oliver, you’re as predictable as a snowstorm at the North Pole.
“Why is it that only Latinos are disloyal when they fly their flag?”
It’s obvoius of course. The Irish and Italians aren’t waving their flags while chanting “Death to America”, “Chicano Power”, “All Europeans are Illegal”, “Reconquista”, and “This is Stolen Land”.
My own feelings on McKinney–if she hit the guy, she was out of line. In fact, she was out of line if she didn’t acknowledge the guy. That said, you’d be naive to think the same thing would have happened if McKinney had been an older white man in a business suit–that is, somebody who looks like a typical Congressman.
It’s in no way disloyal for illegal immigrants to waive the flags of their home country at a rally intended to promote relaxed immigration policies. After all, they’re not Americans, so how can they be disloyal? However, with that being said, I think they’re doing a lousy job of trying to prove that they have successfully assimilated into American society. And they’re alienating many NON-racist Americans who might have been sympathetic to their cause but look at all the Mexican flags and “Viva La Raza” banners (which ARE racist, by the way) being waived and feel they’re acting like ingrates… getting a better education for their children and better medical care for themselves and their family than they could receive in their own country, all courtesy of US taxpayers.
I agree that the root problem is employers. They like the below poverty-wage status quo just fine. But it’s not just the evil KKKorporations that are guilty… there are plenty of small businesses and middle class Americans who enjoying paying low wages for home construction and contracting, lawncare, houscleaning and babysitting. You want to stem the flood of illegal immigration? Start by enforcing EXISTING laws with fines (and jail time if necessary) for employers caught employing illegals. When the jobs dry up, the incentive to come North will go away as well.
I disagree with any kind of a guest worker program that provides a path to citizenship. What about all the people (especially the ones with actual skills and education) who want to legally emigrate and are on the waiting list, patiently waiting their turn? Is it fair to let the people who broke the law to come here get in line ahead of them?
And being concerned about the long term financial damage (i.e. lowering wages, increasing medical, education and social service costs with no corresponding increase in tax revenue) being done to this country by unchecked illegal immigration does not make a person racist.
Every election year the GOP claws for a nice little debate to bring out the lemming vote. What’s interesting is how the saps fall for it time and again. In 2004 it was the anti-gay marriage referendums on the ballot in 11 states.
“That said, you d be naive to think the same thing would have happened if McKinney had been an older white man in a business suit that is, somebody who looks like a typical Congressman.”
Do you know this for a fact, or are you just assuming (like McKinney is arguing, trying to deflect blame away from herself) that the Capitol Police are racists?
There’s a reason that ALL representatives (and not just the non-white ones) are issued pins that identify them and let them bypass the metal detectors. I disagree that a white man is going to be automatically waived through. I seem to recall that it was a white man trying to bypass the metal detector who killed two Capitol Police officers back in 1998, so I doubt they’re giving anyone a free pass these days.
I think the only one being racist here is McKinney and her supporters. McKinney refuses to wear her identifying pin or other ID and expects the Police to recognize her on sight. When they don’t and try to stop her, she resorts to a physical attack on the man who’s just trying to do his job to protect HER and every other representative in the building. And in return, he gets accused of being a racist officer, in a racist organization.
McKinney’s lawyer said this incident happened because “she was guilty of being black and female in Congress”. “Stupid and egotistical” is more like it (although the term “Congress” in the sentence does make “Stupid and egotistical” somewhat redundant).
I think the Democrats need to take Oliver’s advise and “tell the racists in [their] party [i.e. McKinney] to shut the hell up”
And being concerned about the long term financial damage (i.e. lowering wages, increasing medical, education and social service costs with no corresponding increase in tax revenue) being done to this country by unchecked illegal immigration does not make a person racist.
Finally. A voice of reason in the midst.
We all know the GOP is split on the illegal immigration issue. Some members haven’t bought into either the Bush or McCain/Kennedy guest worker/amnesty plans and are trying to counter them with more stern measures.
What I can’t understand is why the Democrats aren’t split on this. They all seem to be pretty uniformly supportive of the guest worker/amnesty approach. Which is surprising, considering how badly (and negatively) illegal immigration hurts their base. Blue collar? Union? Latino farmworkers? Legal immigrants? Aren’t these people being told by their party how their livelihoods are in jeopardy by a continuing flood of low wage workers? Taxes will go up (to maintain the same services with fewer payroll taxes coming in) and wages will go down. Do they not see the dangers? There’s plenty to be worried about without having to resort to the “foreign invaders are destroying our culture” approach.
I think the Democrats are too hypnotized by the idea of 12 million illegal immigrants = 12 million new “citizen” = 12 million new latino voters voting Democrat.
In fairness to the Dems, I think Bush and many of the Republicans supporting him (and the businesses supporting them) on this issue are similarly entranced by the idea of 12 million illegal immigrants = 12 million poverty wage, non-union, no benefits, often paid under-the-table (so no payroll taxes) workers.
“Drone, whether Cynthia McKinney is a racist or not doesn t change the fact that a good portion of the anti-immigration crowd IS racist.”
Nice sidestep of the issue. So do you disagree that McKinney is racist (on this issue at least)? If so, why?
“Some of them use arguments like yours, about how undocumented immigrants don t pay taxes, and don t assimilate. Both which are proven lies.”
So prove them as lies. At least try to make a credible counter argument without dropping the racist bomb.
Many (if not most) illegal immigrants are paid under the table, meaning no taxes are deducted from their pay, no FICA is paid by them or their employer and no disability insurance payments are made by their employer. In the case of day laborers, gardeners, housekeepers and nannies, I would guess it’s a lot closer to 100%.
Is the immigrant population, as a whole, paying their share of taxes? No. Are they using education services in the same or higher amount as the rest of the population? Based on the higher number of children found in predominantly Catholic latino families, I’d say yes. Are they using medical services in the same or higher amount as the rest of the population? Based on the fact that lower wage jobs seldom have any medical insurance and the larger family sizes, I’d say again yes. Illegal immigrants are drawing more tax money than they are providing, resulting in a steadily increasing loss.
As far as assimilation goes, I think the pictures from the recent protests (overwhelming humber of Mexican flags, all the “Brown Pride”, “Chicano Power” and “Stolen Land” signs and banners) tell the story. How many of these people, many of them here for 10 years or more, even speak English? How do you define assimilation?
Drone, whether Cynthia McKinney is a racist or not doesn’t change the fact that a good portion of the anti-immigration crowd IS racist. Some of them use arguments like yours, about how undocumented immigrants don’t pay taxes, and don’t assimilate. Both which are proven lies.
Buma, boy are you ever correct. The McCain-Kennedy bill will fail, the Tancredo-Senselessbrenner act will fail, and the lemmings will be on to the next missing blonde girl. Or on to hating Iran, which is our next debacle.
Hating blacks is long out of fashion. Hating women is so Archie Bunker. Even hating gay people is so 2004. The new style for 2006 is hating those conniving immigrants. The wingnuts hope that it stays in style until at least November.
“Every election year the GOP claws for a nice little debate to bring out the lemming vote. What s interesting is how the saps fall for it time and again. In 2004 it was the anti-gay marriage referendums on the ballot in 11 states.”
If this is all just a grand GOP ploy to galvanize the saps, why is the GOP split on this issue? That’s going to hurt them, not help them in an election. I guess Karl Rove’s mind control rays lose their effectiveness over time.
I think the illegal immigration issue is just a bit bigger than that (although both parties seem happy to jump on it as a partisan issue). I don’t recall there being hundreds of thousands of protestors marching across the country in 2004 shouting “Gay Pride” and demanding same-sex marriages. Do you?
The GOP is split on the issue, because the lemmings don’t pay the bills for the RNC (or the DNC, for that matter). You still need corporate help to stay in office, and corps don’t like having their cheap labor supply cut off.
Corps were ok with gay-bashing, because it doesn’t cost them money either way. But illegal immigration is the difference between a CEO’s 40′ yacht and having a 42′ yacht. It costs them money.
As I’ve said on numerous occasions, there are quite a few Republicans whose positions on immigration are honest misgivings about mass immigration - I actually tend to agree with them. That said, the loudest voices and a significant part of the conservative “coalition” are out and out nativists that hate hispanics. Don’t take my word for it. Take Jeb Bush:
The interesting thing is I share more of my position with the “get tough” people than Bush, but not because I hate hispanics.
As far as McKinney, she’s a crazy anti-semite with no power beyond her House seat. Why would I pay attention to her?
As far as McKinney, she s a crazy anti-semite with no power beyond her House seat. Why would I pay attention to her?
OW, you’re very quick to point the finger of racism at the right (i.e. illegal immigration, Katrina preparation and aftermath, etc.). In this case, you have a member of the left making outrageous and in my opinion racist claims, and no one on the left is saying a word to disagree with her. And she’s not just some whackjob on a blog or the radio. She’s an elected member of Congress. And none of her esteemed Democratic collegues are saying a thing.
But now that Cynthia and her staements have been brought to your attention, what is your opinion of her claims that she’s the victim of racism while simultaneously accusing the entire Capitol Police department of being racists. You know, one of the officers shot and killed in 1998 was black. Was he racist? Are other black officers currently on the force racist?
From Harry Reid (see Drudge)
” Reid’s bill, the Immigration Stabilization Act of 1993, overhauls the nation’s immigration laws and calls for a massive scale-down of immigrants allowed into the country from approximately 800,000 to 300,000.
The bill also changes asylum laws to prevent phony asylum seekers. Reid said the U.S. open door policy is being abused at the expense of honest, working citizens.
“We are a country founded upon fairness and justice,” Reid said. “An individual in real threat of torture or long-term incarceration because of his or her political beliefs can still seek asylum. But this bill closes the door to those who want to abuse America’s inherent generosity and legal system.”
Reid’s bill also cracks down on illegal immigration. The 1990 census reported 3.3 million illegal aliens in America. Recent estimates indicate about 2.5 million immigrants illegally entered the United States last year.
“Our borders have overflowed with illegal immigrants placing tremendous burdens on our criminal justice system, schools and social programs,” Reid said. “The Immigration and Naturalization Service needs the ability to step up enforcement.
“Our federal wallet is stretched to the limit by illegal aliens getting welfare, food stamps, medical care and other benefits often without paying any taxes.
“Safeguards like welfare and free medical care are in place to boost Americans in need of short-term assistance. These programs were not meant to entice freeloaders and scam artists from around the world. “Even worse, Americans have seen heinous crimes committed by individuals who are here illegally,” Reid said.”
so what has changed since 1993? Was he lying then or is he lying now?
First point: This thread is not about McKinney.
Second point:
http://www.dallasfed.org/research/swe/2004/swe0403a.html+immigrant+assimilation&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
“Because of this commitment to work and despite other disadvantages such as lack of English fluency and familiarity with U.S. laws and institutions immigrants assimilate and surpass earnings levels of like natives after about 16 to 20 years in the United States.[3] This is illustrated in Chart 2 by the solid line.”
….
“Turning to the data in Chart 3, educational assimilation appears alive and well. High school dropout rates for immigrants improve across generations, dropping from 27 percent in the first generation to 8.6 percent in the third generation.[4] The first generation is made up of the foreign-born (the immigrant generation), while the second generation is made up of U.S.-born children of immigrants. The third (and higher) generation or native generation is composed of all U.S.-born individuals of U.S.-born parents.[5]”
Although the Dallas Fed is obviously an arm of the liberal media, you see there is some evidence that assimilation happens rapidly. This does nothing to break out the record of undocumented, as it is hard to survey the undocumented, but obviously the 2nd and 3rd generations of undocumented are legal, and therefore those studies are likely valid. If the undocumented are normalized into mainstream American society, their assimilation will likely accelerate.
Point 3:
I don’t know who these people are, but their research is interesting:
http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back1202.html
Illegal alien households are estimated to use $2,700 a year more in services than they pay in taxes, creating a total fiscal burden of nearly $10.4 billion on the federal budget in 2002.
If illegal aliens were legalized and began to pay taxes and use services like legal immigrants with the same education levels , the estimated annual fiscal deficit at the federal level would increase from $2,700 per household to nearly $7,700 , for a total federal deficit of $29 billion.
So their study finds that illegals actually are less of a burden on services than are legals at the same socioeconomic level.
By the way, here is a site that agrees with you, for the sake of being fair and balanced:
http://www.theamericanresistance.com/articles/art2004jan04.html
The interesting thing is I share more of my position with the get tough people than Bush, but not because I hate hispanics.
Oliver, is it not possible that conservatives can have the same position?
Like I said “Fact”check was he lying then or is he lying now? Or is he just a cheap political opportunist who doesn’t actually have any sense of his own “values”?
Was he wrong about all the money that the illegals are costing us? Lying?
…….be a good little pinko and enlighten us
I cut/pasted the wrong CIS link: Here is the one to the 2004 study
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html
Sen Reid wrote that 13 years ago and has changed his perception of the issue since. He’s a supporter of the Kennedy bill.
As I said, McKinney is an anti-semite and a wackjob, do you normally take the words of people like that seriously? I don’t.
The conservative movement as it currently exists was built on a foundation of racism (Strom Thurmond, Willie Horton, etc.). Republican politicians have regularly used the spectre of racism in order to achieve their political goals. While I clearly detest the man, Bush has been better than most in his party with regard to the issue, but treads into that territory from time to time.
The person who has been banging the drums on immigration the loudest and longest - Tom Tancredo - clearly does so out of racial hatred for hispanics.
factcheck, thank you for linking to a study that proves my point. I’m confused, though. Weren’t you claiming that there was no negative financial impact from illegal immigration? Why did you link to that study? Or is your contention that it’s a pack of lies created by a racist immigrant hating organization? If so, you might want to check the last paragraph:
Results Similar to Other Studies. A 1997 report by the National Research Council (NRC) on the fiscal impact of immigrants concluded that education levels and resulting income are the primary determinants of tax payments and service use, which is also a central finding of this report. The results of this study closely match the findings of a 1998 Urban Institute study. Our estimated average tax payment for illegal households in New York State is almost identical to that of the Urban Institute, when adjusted for inflation. The results of this study are also buttressed by an analysis of illegal alien tax returns done by the Inspector General s Office of the Department of Treasury in 2004, which found that about half had no federal income tax liability, very similar to our findings of 45 percent.
They are citing other reports (one by the US govt) which agree closely with theirs.
Alright, Pee-dro, be a good little fascist and find out what Reid’s position is on the subject now. And then you can contrast those positions, and then compare them to the Sensenbrenner act and let me know what the difference is.
Chop Chop!
Or is Reid a racist?
Oliver…?
Alright, Pee-dro, be a good little fascist and find out what Reid s position is on the subject now. And then you can contrast those positions, and then compare them to the Sensenbrenner act and let me know what the difference is.
Actually, factcheck, I think the burden of proof is on you to find out if Reid’s position is different now. From the 1993 quote, it sounds like the Democrat’s minority leader is one of them thar’ racist immigrant haters that seem to permeate the right these days.
I know it’s easier to make the argument go away if you ask the other side to your homework for you, but sometimes you have to just bear down and do it.
As I ve said on numerous occasions, there are quite a few Republicans whose positions on immigration are honest misgivings about mass immigration - I actually tend to agree with them. That said, the loudest voices and a significant part of the conservative coalition are out and out nativists that hate hispanics.”
So if you understand that there is in fact a GOP split on this issue and there are “quite a few” Republicans that you agree with, why do you insist on tarring all Republicans and/or conservatives with the same “racist” brush?
OW quote: “Conservatives have pushed the mantra that to wave the flag of another nation - particularly Mexico - is to be an agent of that nation”.
That looks to me like a condemnation of all conservatives. Not ’some’ or ‘many’ or ‘a significant number’. All.
OW quote: “Of course, it s time for the right to quit pretending what their motivations are and simply admit that they re motivated by racism”
In other words, everyone on the right is a racist. This must be that famous “nuance” we hear Democrats are so skilled at.
And what are your thoughts on Rep. Cynthia McKinney? Racist or non-racist? Egomaniac or victim?
My wife came here legally, but it hurts her just as it hurts me when people give the perception that all immigrants are bad,
Who is it giving this perception? Name some names. I don’t care if it’s Jeb Bush. Who exactly is giving off this perception?
The discussion is about ILLEGAL immigration, not about IMMIGRANTS. And what is wrong with wanting to control the borders and keep out illegals?
My in-laws are immigrants from Sicily. My brother’s wife is Peruvian. Her mother and grandmother are both immigrants. But they’re here LEGALLY. They jumped through all the hoops they had to jump through in order to live the American dream.
This bill working its way through the Senate is a bunch of bullshit. If current laws aren’t enforced, what the hell makes a person think that some bill requiring a person to learn to speak English will be enforced? I’m tired of this. We pity the people breaking the law, yet people like Oliver compare The Minuteman Project to the Klan and these people haven’t broken a single law!
The people who have come here legally should be insulted by the very politicians coddling the illegals and those who think erecting a wall making it harder for people to get into the country illegally is somehow wrong.
“Results Similar to Other Studies. A 1997 report by the National Research Council (NRC) on the fiscal impact of immigrants concluded that education levels and resulting income are the primary determinants of tax payments and service use, which is also a central finding of this report.”
My point was illegals are no special drain on the treasury, any more than non-illegals do at the same income levels. Nothing would be solved by sending all of the undocumented workers away that wouldn’t be solved by sending all poor workers away.
If we send them all away, which is not feasable, we have the pesky business of not having enough people to do the jobs that they leave behind.
Jay, you keep saying this but do you deny that the Dixiecrats left the Dems over racial issues and formed the foundation of the modern Republican movement, and preached about the evils of integration to help create the GOP dominance we see in the South today? Are you seriously saying none of this happened? I know the history of my side, and yours. It would do you well to crack a book or two instead of constantly saying “nu-uh”.
Has McKinney’s coverage been softballed? It’s been all over the place, and she’s been rightly ridiculed by those putting forth an opinion on the matter. Even the Daily Show took a big swipe at her. As far as Neal Boortz, he even realized he had gone over the line and apologized.
As far as the immigration issue, the majority of people support some form of amnesty - its essentially the position that the Dems, independents, and yes even Bush share on this one.
Pee-dro, you’ve still left unfinished business on the other threads
1. Iraq thread: Go to the article you linked to and find for me what you consider the most penetrating, the most incisive, the most critical point. Identify that sentence or paragraph where the article reaches its rehtorical peak. Find it and post it here and we ll discuss it.
2. Tell me the court where Bill Clinton was found guilty of the crime of perjury.
You’ve got some work to do. Until you give truthful and intellectually consistent arguments to the above, I’m done playing with you. You are the missing link. Bye?
I’ve wondered for a long time now why it is that when the subject of illegal immigration comes up in the U.S. it’s almost invariably about Mexican immigrants. Why is the attention not focused north of your border?
Reid’s bill, old as it is, was based on certain realities that have changed since then. First of all, lots of the proposals were aimed at relieving the backlog of political asylum requests, so that phony requestors could be deported.
Second, we had severe unemployment then, as the country was reeling from 12 years of trickle-down economics, and couldn’t afford further job loss.
Third, Reid’s bill never made felons of people just because they are trying to feed their family. Reid still agrees that we need to control the flow of people into the country. Again, Drudge and his lapdogs like you are making a strawman out of this- no Democrat is for complete open borders. We just believe in a pragmatic approach that respects the immigrants themselves, the business community, and naturalized and native Americans
I’m sorry OW, “his perception” has changed?
How about the facts that he was using to support his ‘93 “perception”, have they changed?
I don’t know how you decide the conservative “movement” was built on a foundation of “racism”, but lets accept that as a fact.
The conservative movements perception has changed
Finally, can someone please explain to me why mentioning that a governor let a convicted murderer out on a pass who then went on to torture and rape people is racist?
Talk about straw men…
The conservative movement as it currently exists was built on a foundation of racism
Where do you get this nonsense? Your knowledge of political history and pol/sci is so piss poor it defies logic. It’s like saying the modern liberal movement is based on low taxes and smaller government. It’s simply not based in reality.
The problem is that liberals such as yourself have made every position of conservatives and Republicans, racist. That includes cutting taxes! Yes, according to many liberals, the policy position of cutting taxes is racist. Why? Because if you have to cut taxes, you have to reduce spending on social services which largely affects minorities. Reforming welfare? Racist. School vouchers? Racist. Require ID to vote? Racist. Immigration reform? What else? Racist. The list goes on and on and on.
Some Capitol Hill cop who was only doing his job is being denigrated by McKinney, calling him a racist. Has any Democrat of any prominence stepped up and told her to shut her hole? Nope. Has Media Matters stepped up to the plate on the softball coverage she’s gotten in the press? Nope. They were too busy whining about Neal Boortz.
Of course, the main reason for all of this is that liberals cannot honestly debate the issues. They’re on the wrong side of it, so it’s far easier to cry like schoolgirls that the GOP and conservatives are big mean racists instead of actually coming up with some concrete ideas.
I think you can figure out the answer to that one, mouse.
fact see my response in the aforementioned thread…
and I am starting to see how frank felt with these lefties stalking me! LOL
I ve wondered for a long time now why it is that when the subject of illegal immigration comes up in the U.S. it s almost invariably about Mexican immigrants. Why is the attention not focused north of your border?
Let’s see. Maybe it’s because 80% of illegals are comprised of Mexicans and other Latin American countries while Canadian illegals make up less than 2%.
I think you can figure out the answer to that one, mouse.
Yeah, it’s simple math.
Oliver, the problem is you re confusing an ideological movement with a political electoral strategy.
One and the same. Republican support for racism isn’t and hasn’t simply been an electoral gambit. It’s an intellectual belief in inferiority that undermines so much of their policies.
The GOP dominance of South these days goes far beyond race.
I know, it’s about denigrating gays now too. Although I don’t think expanding the sphere of bigotry is necessarily a positive thing.
And it s wrong.
I’ve waited so long to say this to a con: That’s your “opinion”.
Jay, you keep saying this but do you deny that the Dixiecrats left the Dems over racial issues and formed the foundation of the modern Republican movement, and preached about the evils of integration to help create the GOP dominance we see in the South today? Are you seriously saying none of this happened? I know the history of my side, and yours. It would do you well to crack a book or two instead of constantly saying nu-uh .
Oliver, the problem is you’re confusing an ideological movement with a political electoral strategy. They are first and foremost, two completely different things. Secondly, it’s a strategy that no longer exists because it’s no longer necessary. The GOP dominance of South these days goes far beyond race.
Has McKinney s coverage been softballed? It s been all over the place, and she s been rightly ridiculed by those putting forth an opinion on the matter. Even the Daily Show took a big swipe at her.
When is another Democrat going to do the same?
As far as the immigration issue, the majority of people support some form of amnesty - its essentially the position that the Dems, independents, and yes even Bush share on this one.
And it’s wrong.
Oliver why do you throw out absolute lies?
“Republican support for racism isn t and hasn t simply been an electoral gambit.”
Please support this thesis…
Currently we have more “people of color” in the bush cabinet than in the last 3 democratic presidents combined. The “elder statesman” of the democrats is a former Grand Kleagle of the KKK for christs sake!
And the vast majority of those black Republicans, like most black Republicans, seek to undermine black America at the expense of their own personal success (I don’t believe Gen. Powell is like that, and of course he’s the Bush appointee most hated by the right).
Drone to OW: “In this case, you have a member of the left making outrageous and in my opinion racist claims, and no one on the left is saying a word to disagree with her. And she s not just some whackjob on a blog or the radio. She s an elected member of Congress. And none of her esteemed Democratic collegues are saying a thing.”
House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer (D-MD), 4/4/06:
“[E]very one of us who visits the Capitol or any of the office buildings& have a responsibility to fully cooperate with every member of the Capitol Police& They are doing their jobs. We need to help them.”
Oh hell its worse than that Jay. The republicans, who took MLK at his word when he said he wanted his kids to be “judged by the content of their character not the color of their skin” are the racists, and the democrats who believe that “people of color (well, the color brown, the asians do ok on their own) need a special assist to survive in this country, strictly based on the color of their skin.
Up is down, down is up.
Oh and oliver, can you PLEASE explain to me why the Willie Horton issue is racist? A convicted murder is let out on furlough, rapes and tortures people and republicans are racists for suggesting that the guy that let him out shouldn’t be president? Huh?
One and the same.
No, it is not. If that’s the case, than your Democratic Party is nothing but the party of Republican Light. It’s how they’ve been trying to run, but you wouldn’t dare tell people that’s what the liberal Democratic movement is all about these days.
Republican support for racism isn t and hasn t simply been an electoral gambit.
Dude, make up your mind. You’re saying this now. One comment ago you said the following:
and preached about the evils of integration to help create the GOP dominance we see in the South today?
It s an intellectual belief in inferiority that undermines so much of their policies.
Actually, conservatives view it through a prism that people can do great things regardless of race and color. Conservative beliefs, contrary to what you think are more popular than liberal ones. How do you think Bill Clinton was able to win those two elections? It’s liberals who are prone to a belief of inferiority. They have an attitude that reeks of racism when basically say, “I support such and such a program because I know ‘those people’ cannot do it by themselves.”
I know, it s about denigrating gays now too.
Democratic support for gay rights extends to nothing more than trying to cover them under federal hate crimes legislation. Most Democrats support denying gays the right to marry. Most Democrats support denying gays the right to adopt children. It was a Democrat that instituted “don’t ask, don’t tell.” It was a Democrat that signed “The Defense of Marriage Act.” Again, your side is worse because it talks up gay rights all the time, but doesn’t have the stones to actually go out and so something about it. Hell, your party won’t even propose such legislation.
And the vast majority of those black Republicans, like most black Republicans, seek to undermine black America at the expense of their own personal success
Translation: They’re all Uncle Tom Negroes. They don’t actually believe any of what they say. It’s all so they can make themselves rich.
Cripes.
buma: House Minority Whip Steny Hoyer (D-MD), 4/4/06:
[E]very one of us who visits the Capitol or any of the office buildings& have a responsibility to fully cooperate with every member of the Capitol Police& They are doing their jobs. We need to help them.
Where’s the part about McKinney being wrong about calling the Capitol Police racist?
And, by the way, Herbert Hoover is often credited with fathering the modern conservative movement. You remember Hoover, don’t you? When the Democrat - based Klan was organizing huge marches down Pennsylvania Avenue?
stand by to see if my earlier comment passes the “awaiting moderation” test
Yeah, I too tire of the ‘racist’ comments on this issue…
The real ‘illegals’ here, as everyone knows, are the employers…
“…played out thousands of times…”…?
Reality is millions of times…
Left or Right, enforce the laws we now have, we need no others…
Oh yea, Hoover did a bang-up job with that depression. Volunteerism saved the country! Oh wait, no it didn’t.
So Hoover was the first conservative? So Harding and Coolidge were… what? Liberal? And if you say yes, I got a few dozen history books to slap you upside the head with.
Yes LB, there’s absolutely no difference between being conservative and being the “father (so - called) of modern conservativism.
Before you slap me upside the head with one of those book, read the one on Engish usage — although my guess is, it’s not in the pile with the Harry Potter stuff.
And, if you had read one of those history books, you might have found the paragraph, usually buried deep inside, that says that it was Hoover’s ideas, when implemented by FDR, that pulled the US out of the Depression. If it will make feel better to smack someone upside the head with a book, try a Capitol cop — they’re getting used being roughed up — by women.
Professor Oliver Dyson speaks!
Of course there was a time…
(Just replace the word “race” with “party.”)
What an idiot you’ve become. (Of course, you probably don’t remember writing that.)
Yes, because a race is exactly the same thing as a party. The modern conservatives choose to use racism, I didn’t make it so. I can only point it out and condemn it. Using hate of another race as a political and cultural weapon is wrong. Neither party should do it. That Republicans have so mainlined it that it comes as naturally to them as breathing air is a tragedy. They would make gains like crazy among minorities if they stopped.
Actually, conservatives view it through a prism that people can do great things regardless of race and color.
No. Conservatives believe in keeping power among one group and convincing others (the rubes, I call them) that they too can benefit from undermining the American system.
How do you think Bill Clinton was able to win those two elections?
By advocating a moderate position on the major issues of the day. Or are you now trying to portray President Clinton, formerly the black-caped spectre of Evil Liberalism as the new Conservative Icon? He campaigned against the policies that brought about the Reagan-Bush deficits, won, and destroyed them only to have the Bush II deficits wipe them out.
As far as gay rights goes, it is Dems who have been including gay Americans under the umbrella of equal rights as Republicans have sought to purge them from society. I certainly don’t agree with every bit of legislation, but Democrats have at the very least not done what the Republicans have - which is to all but stone gays for being what they are. Black Americans are not exactly big fans of gay Americans as a group, yet they have certainly exhibited far more tolerance towards their fellow Americans than major conservative figures like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, James Dobson and the ilk.
Whether you want to label it “Uncle Tom” or not to actively enable policies that put blacks in the back of the bus is up to you, but I put a lot more credibility in black leaders who don’t seem so uncomfortable in their skin color.
Actually Frank, if YOU had read anything rather than got snippy with me, you might have noted it was World War II, not the works of Hoover or FDR that got us out the depression. That and you might have noticed there’s a big difference between Hoover’s policies and FDR’s. One involved relying upon the banks and businesses to take it upon themselves to fix the country. The other involved creating a number of programs and groups designed to fix the problem.
As for Hoover being the father of “modern” conservatism, I completely disagree, (Reagan has created more of the “modern” conservative mvement) but what does it matter since you seem to have no respect for anyone’s opinion other than your own.
LB: We can argue about Hoover on two points: 1) Did Hoover’s policies get us out of the Depression?
I say his policies were working between 1938 and 1941, before we entered World War II. Based on the premise that millions of men were “employed” in Europe and the Pacific, youi might say that WW II fixed the Depression, But, if you look at post war unemployment and inflation, you might not.
On point 2) Was Hoover the “Father of Modern Conservatism, I would say that, whether he as or he was not, it was by no means Ronald Reagan. Sen Robert Taft was considered “too conservative” for the Presidential nomination of 1952, well before was Reagan was anything like an influential political representative.
Finally, you might want to consider how respect is related to slapping me upside the head with “a few dozen history books”?
No need to answer — just give it some thought.
“Using hate of another race as a political and cultural weapon?”
Man- you love them talking points. But I get it Oliver. It’s your job to write talking points. You spend your entire life on them- in your job, in your hobby, in your little bubble of people and friends you surround yourself with.
You realize that politically, the Democrats strongest tactic over the last 30 years has been the labeling all Republican as racist. Keep minorities in fear of Republicans because all they want to do is put you in the “back of the bus.” And yet that tactic has slipped in stature.
And every little gain by Republicans with minorities is a threat to you politically. But it amuses me to see you jump on the code words and phrases- “back of the bus” and “Uncle Tom.”
And yes- in that particular quote of yours from the wayback machine substituting the word “party” for “race” as you used it is on point. Even as you use a post to try an paint all Conservatives/Republicans as racist in your political talking points, when not so long ago you said yourself that you don’t think the President is a racist.
Give it some time- you’ll find a reason to call him one. Some policy you can exploit for a political talking point. You’re just as bad as the protesters. You’re just like the politicians and “Civil Rights Leaders” that you don’t necessarily allign yourself with (Jackson, Sharpton, Dyson). You’ll make claims of racism whenever it fits your political agenda.
By the way- I’ll have to sort through your posts, but I haven’t heard much about Cynthia McKinney from you. But knowing you, I’m sure you see her as a fool and a distraction that you shouldn’t give too much attention to.