I’m watching the top segment on O’Reilly and he’s talking with one of these fellows from Heritage Foundation, and it’s literally a straight up “Hispanics are like this” and “they” won’t be like “mainstream America”, etc (in other words, like Frank, they’re lamenting the Threat of A Brown America).
Seriously? This is what the immigration issue is now? We just decided that there’s just too many of “them” in America and as O’Reilly says “there’s going to be hell to pay”?
People. This is crazy. Not just standard issue Republican craziness, but crazy.
I know this b******t sells books for Michelle Malkin and her ilk, but this is straight up un-American talk.
Bush And The Immigration Issue Flame Up
Illegal immigration has caused quite a stir in Washington and this is only the beginning. There are protestors everywhere for both sides of the illegal immigrant amnesty issue. Bill Frist fired out a statement on the Senate floor which I stand by mysel…
I’ll start by saying I don’t watch much O’reilly, so I didn’t see the episode, and the guy may be a complete over the top racist. But in a more general sense, when you talk about groups of people, you have to generalize. There is no other way to deal with it.
If we compare the hispanic immigrants, legal and illegal to immigrants from bygone eras, there are differences. When my family got off the boat from Europe in the ’20’s, they were embarrased by their inability to speak english. They didn’t march down to city hall demanding that the voting booths be in German. They didn’t scream at the school board that their kids needed to be taught in Czech. Certainly there were ethnic neighborhoods and stores, but hell, even their signs were in english!
America is a melting pot because people who came here, at least at one point, “melted”. They accepted their new country, and adapted their culture to it. The hispanic lobby (for lack of a better word) wants this country to adapt to IT”S culture….and is demanding it at the expense of their kids. If you don’t think not speaking english is a disadvantage, show up to an emergency room in extremis and try to explain your problem. It is one thing if you are brand new immigrant, but this happens with people who have been here 10-20 years!
Oliver, that’s a lie, and you know it. Give it a rest.
Of course no one argues my POINT. Typical. I made no qualifications about good or bad…Bushwacked actually has no point at all, no argument against, no argument for, just a waste of perfectly good electrons…
This site becomes more vapid every day…
It is one thing if you are brand new immigrant, but this happens with people who have been here 10-20 years!
100% of third generation Latinos speak English exclusively. Take your German ancestry and shove it up your Teutonic ass.
http://spanish.about.com/b/a/215990.htm
The fact is, in every era, demogogues like O’Reilly and their usefull idiots on display here scapegoat the dominant immigrant groups. 80 years ago, the Italians and Irish were going to make America a vassal of the Vatican. There is a xenophobic streak that runs in America, but, fortunately, the people who spout such bullshit are in the minority.
It’s just really great for me to see the Republican party pissing away a large voting bloc for at least a generation. The shelf life on Reagan’s amnesty is about to expire, kiddies.
“… in a more general sense, when you talk about groups of people, you have to generalize.”
And it just so happens that White people = Good and Brown people = Bad.
Way to go pedro. You just proved Oliver’s point.
‘But in a more general sense, when you talk about groups of people, you have to generalize. There is no other way to deal with it. ‘
“The hispanic lobby (for lack of a better word) wants this country to adapt to IT S culture& .and is demanding it at the expense of their kids. If you don t think not speaking english is a disadvantage, show up to an emergency room in extremis and try to explain your problem. It is one thing if you are brand new immigrant, but this happens with people who have been here 10-20 years! ”
Pedro, I only hope you are running the both the Senate and House re-election campaign for your party. Like I said – Go ahead, make my day!
Big Gay Al wrote,
Why Al, you – you – you RACIST!!!
Well, when you can’t argue against the message, then attack the messenger. It is a common meme among leftists….
As big al knows, most of my teutonic bretheren spoke english in the FIRST generation……
Reality check time again …
Well bless my soul — 6 out of every ten of Americans are racists!
pedro, what’s there to say? Your historical knowledge is clouded by a warmed over nostalgia that neatly elides, as Al points out, the anti-immigrant rhetoric that met Germans, Italians, Irish, Eastern European and other ethnic groups at the turn of the century. At the same time, you paint a picture of the current wave of Latino immigrants that completely erases generations of assimilated children. Right now, today, I can go to any high school in Los Angeles and find the children of Mexican immigrants who speak english, dig Tupac, eat at McDonald’s, went to see Date Movie and play Halo2. And I bet a lot of them also hit the streets in protest this past week because they’re sick and tired of the racist bullshit that passes for debate in this country. You simply don’t know what you’re talkng about.
But beyind that, tell me, even if we take your comparisons as accurate, so what? You yourself said you made no qualifications about good or bad so who cares if there are differences?
89 percent of Americans think illegal immigration into the U.S. is a problem.
When you ask the question like that, it hardly qualifies the respondents as racists.
I don’t think substantive arguments based on evidence work in this forum. It is so much more satisfying to work off your anger in a safe space, I guess.
You know if 80 percent of Americans think that illegal Latino immigration represented a serious threat to American culture, as Frank thinks it does, that is hardly a warm blanket of comfort to pull over yourselves. Just because a lot of people are racists doesn’t make being racist right.
“Well bless my soul 6 out of every ten of Americans are racists!”
Mike, there’s a distinction to be made here between those who want to make some economic argument against illegal immigrants or those people who just think that “breaking the law” should be punished. The facts are, however, that immigration, legal and illegal, does not have a negative impact on the economy and I personally do not see illegal immigration in the same light as I do other illegal activity. Stealing a loaf of bread is not a crime that someone should be punished severely for as if they robbed a bank.
To that extent that people see illegal immigration from Mexico as a threat to American culture, well, they’re working from a reactionary, racist impulse to be sure.
And I suppose a bi – lingual society that adds more Monday holidays to the list is to be welcomed with open arms.
I’ll even plead guilty to reactionary, if I must, but I’ll not be called a racist because I value the culture that surrounds me more than the one that is approaching. That’s just an unnecessary and pointless slur, especially when you consider that so many Hispanics are caucasian.
It doesn’t even make sense.
That’s funny — duros — that’s exactly what it meant yesterday.
I’ve got the solution to the illegal; immigration problem: Declare them to be Cuban citizens
That means at least some of them are DEMOCRATS….!
Will wonders never cease….
Well, the Irish had a head start, because they already spoke English! Which doesn’t mean vigilante groups weren’t hunting them down in the streets of Boston in the good old days.
Growing up in the 50’s in San Francisco I remember third generation Chinese in Chinatown who spoke only minimal English, for which they were much ridiculed. That was because they were segregated away from the mainstream. Now they can work and live everywhere, sound just like other Americans, and have become a “model minority.”
Here in Hawaii I have a lot of neighbors of second or third generation Mexican descent, and guess what: they all speak English and are mainstream in every way. Some of them don’t speak Spanish, and none of their kids speak Spanish, which is a loss, I think.
Here’s what I saw in the Portland Oregon area, where I taught English as a second language to Mexicans, recent immigrants, from Oaxaca, mostly, Indios for whom Spanish was not a first language. They had come up to work on farms and in fast food places and were often without any formal skills. Their kids are getting educated in the public schools now. This group will assimilate in a generation, as have groups before it. Unless the “guest worker” program makes permanent vagrants out of them, that is. I really favor amnesty so that they can strike roots and assimilate.
I also taught Pentacostal Russians, who are very strange people to my way of thinking. They learned English pretty fast, but their attitudes… For instance, a whole class walked out once because they refused to be taught by a Black teacher. Another group walked out when their teacher told them she was a Buddhist. Instead of expelling them from the facility, what I wanted to do, we had to accomodate to their wishes and get them different teachers. Their kids blend right into white communities and get good jobs and so on without much trouble. The kids are OK, actually, at least better than their bigoted parents.
The groups that I saw flounder were the Southeast Asians. Many of them have experienced so much trauma that they can’t lead normal lives, and their kids may fall into despair. Family loyalties work against them, too, demanding duties and behavior that cause conflicts with American norms. Their struggles go mostly unnoticed outside their communities, since, aside from the Asian gangs, they tend to suffer in silence.
These are just the groups I know best. There are the Filipinos, too, whose experiences are not just in the U.S. but in many other countries. Here in Hawaii we have totally assimilated Filipinos and Filipinos just off the boat, as well as Pacific Islanders.
I don’t know much about groups like non-Mexican or Indio “Hispanics,” Haitians, etc.
To my mind, assimilation is the name of the game. The minimum for that is a high school education and English skills.
I wonder with some of the posters here if they have much experience with actual people, or if they get all their ideas about American life from Fox TV. They also take an ahistorical point of view, as if everything that’s going on now has no root causes and has just sort of happened.
There’s a post up there awaiting moderation. Let’s try this:
“I don t think substantive arguments based on evidence work in this forum.”
But wait a second. What substantive arguments has pedro made? According to him he has merely described the perceived differences between two immigrant cultures. He rejects that idea that he has made any qualifying judgement about those differences. So what’s there to argue? So there are differences. Big deal. If pedro isn’t willing to make any kind of judgement about those differences and rejects the idea that he did. SO what exactly is his POINT?
I agree, Josh. I saw the negative effects of guest worker policies in Germany and Switzerland. It is not something we want.
“Frame my point is that if we allow a huge wave of immigrants in that are not interested in becoming a part of our society, but existing at it s fringes, we are going to be in more trouble.”
So you beleive that the behavior of illegal hispanic immigrants will cause America toruble, that is, indeed, bad for America. So I guess that means you were making a value judgement then, right?
Frame my point is that if we allow a huge wave of “immigrants” in that are not interested in becoming a part of our society, but existing at it’s fringes, we are going to be in more trouble. It isn’t good for the “melting pot”. That has been our historical strength, taking the best of various cultures/races and incorporating them into the big America.
I disagree that folks that won’t incorporate into this culture aren’t costing us. They cost us dearly…..
Another “Dr” Pee-dro strawman. All immigrant populations throughout our history have come here to integrate into our society, and in time they do.
For the first generation, this is sometimes not apparent, as language, discrimination, and mores can isolate portions of the immigrant populations in defined areas.
But by the third generation, as the children grow up in America and inculcate American traditions, the segregation has disappeared. Also, America has by that time learned to accept the new population and adjusted.
For example, first and second generation Eastern European Jews were primarily confined to tenement ghettos a century ago. Many didn’t speak the language, and many were not educated. Most would not or couldn’t function outside of the Jewish community.
As they had American children going to American schools, the children fanned out to new neighborhoods, or old neighborhoods that had refused Jews. Still there were problems with older groups, witness restricted country clubs and restricted developments.
Now that the Jewish population in the US is in its 3rd, 4th, or later generations, most lines have disappeared so that many institutions created for the original Jewish community are disappearing. The Lower East Side of Manhattan is now Asian. The resorts in the Catskills, with their golf clubs that accepted Jews when other clubs would not, are struggling to survive.
The Latino population is the same, as is the Asian population, the Muslim population and every other group of immigrants dominant now.
“I disagree that folks that won t incorporate into this culture aren t costing us. They cost us dearly& ..”
How, how do they cost us dearly? Economically? Read this: http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/14216395.htm
Or is your gripe entirely cultural?
From the Internets:
I can see the merits of an immigration policy that lets in lots of immigrants and I can see the merits of one that lets in much fewer immigrants. But a guest worker program — especially one that envisages large numbers of immigrants here to work on a semi-permanent basis with no prospect or ready access to a path to citizenship — is wrong. We’re not Kuwait and we’re not Germany. It’s bad for America to have a permanent class of residents who are here for their labor but who are permanently barred from becoming citizens. It’s bad for our society. It’s bad for the immigrants. And it’s bad for citizens who have to compete for jobs against an inherently exploitable class of whatever amounts to 21st century coolie labor.
No surprise President Bush is big in favor of such a bad idea. Bad economics, bad civics, bad social policy.
– Josh Marshall
That s funny duros that s exactly what it meant yesterday.
When you say When it will be centered on the disappearance of white power?
I.e. Is illegal immigration a problem that will ultimately destroy our WASP culture- that
“So I guess that means you were making a value judgement then, right?”
The point being is that if you can’t even be honest about what is your are saying and arguing, why should we listen to a word you have to say?
in your view?
…is racism.
PEdro, in your first post you decried that “The hispanic lobby … wants this country to adapt to IT S culture.”
And yet now you beleive that “our historical strength [has been] taking the best of various cultures/races and incorporating them into the big America.”
So which is it? Is it bad to adapt or isn’t it? Or is adapting different from incorporating?
Actually, Mike, you can call me a racist, if it floats your boat. I have denied it on a number of occasions, to no avail. And I am in a better position to know if I’m a racist than any of you.
So I’m not going to waste my time providing you with “evidence” that I’m not a racist, because either you really don’t care whether I am or not, or you will go on believing that I am a racist, no matter what I say.
For me, it’s a lose – lose situation.
From my point of view, the liberal view on race is: My credentials on the race issue are impeccable. Therefore, anyone who disagrees with me is a racist.
I don’t accept the premise or the conclusion.
frameone, instead of being so damned petty and contentious, why don’t you friggin’ say something?
Gawd, you’re a pain in the ass…
Shorter Frank: Culture = f(number of Monday Holidays [??? - of all the things to worry about!], % of people that are same race [white], % of people that speak the same langauge [English], do everything Republican leadership says)
Perhaps if he described the qualities of the current culture and how they differ from the culture he sees taking over and why he has a problem with that. Perhaps then we will see why you are not a racist.
And if refusing to discuss it, or even look at it, makes me a racist, then you ve got a cockeyed definition of racism.
That should have read: And if wanting to discuss it, or even look at it, makes me a racist, then you ve got a cockeyed definition of racism.
No, duros, that was a simple typo on my part, combined with “cherry picking” on your part.
When I repeated it, it was in reference to the questions we might want to look at instead of being stuck on “the 11 million.”
The question was, “When will it be centered on the disappearance of white power?” Acknowledging that white power may (begin to) disappear, and there may be immediate negative consequences, is not a small matter. It may not happen in your lifetime, it sure won’t happen in mine.
It makes no difference to me, in that respect. I live a few hundred yards away from thousands of Mexicans and other hispanics. They don’t cut my grass, or bus my kitchen table. I’m in a “Live and let live” mode. But it’s a national issue. And if refusing to discuss it, or even look at it, makes me a racist, then you’ve got a cockeyed definition of racism.
By the way, Oliver’s point is that it is racist to turn the discussion from one about legality of the immigrants (which is a discussion that is clearly warranted) to one about the inferiority of their culture. It is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Unless, of course, you make a great argument about your concerns with their culture.
“Therefore, anyone who disagrees with me is a racist.”
Frank, you keep bleeting on and on about threats to “our culture” and “negative consquences.” I think it’s about time you spelled out exactly what you mean by both.
Thanks, frame. That is the heart of the matter. What is “American culture”. We all define it differently. I want to know what Frank thinks about it.
I think Frank would be surprised to know that most liberals agree with his view of our culture. Where we don’t agree is that the inevitable assimilation of the much of the Mexican culture is going to be either good or bad for the nation. I think it’s going to be a wonderful thing. I’ve lived near Mexicans all my life and had Mexican friends as well (with the exception of when I lived in Florida and Indiana, but Chicago (ages 0-9), California where kids were bused in from East Palo Alto (age 13), and Phoenix (ages 14-18) all showed me that Mexican culture isn’t that much different than our culture).
What, specifically about the future, has you alarmed? There might be another language we speak? I just don’t see any dangers. Are you afraid they’ll start showing more soccer on ESPN? I, for one, wouldn’t mind that so much. Spell it out so we don’t have to speculate. This speculation is causing Oliver to misrepresent you [or so you claim].
If white supremecists want to get violent over our immigration policies that shouldn t have any impact on the formulation of the policies themselves.
Charles Rangel on Bush:
“I really think that he shatters the myth of white supremacy once and for all.”
“frameone, instead of being so damned petty and contentious, why don t you friggin say something?”
Really, you just get dumber by the day. Pedro asserted that he made no value judgement about Hispanic immigrants when in fact he did. I also responded directly to his value judgements arguing that they are based on an inaccurate understanding of current immigration, that is, Hispanics are assimilating, they are joining American culture and American culture is adapting to them.
None of you reactionary dipshits is capable of being honest about your positions on this issue. Pedro proved it in this thread, you prove it in every thread. I mean seriously, we’re supposed to care what white supremecists think about our immigration policies? We’re supposed to make a place at the table for them? If white supremecists want to get violent over our immigration policies that shouldn’t have any impact on the formulation of the policies themselves. They’re racists. If they get violent, arrest them. Who cares? Or do you mean something more by “white power” and “negative consequences”? What negative consequences? Be specific.
Frank, implicit in your premise is that there’s something horribly wrong if hispanics become the majority in America. In other words, if whites aren’t in the majority the whole thing will fall apart. That is a fundamentally racist point of view, and against the way America operates. Who cares if one race or another is in the majority?
mikedbot
myself personally, it’s too much immigration, too fast. it may cause the sw U.S. to end up balkanized, which leads to division, tension, and rifts between people.
That and the strain on taxpayers.
Legal immigration – fine. But let’s not be stupid. No country can stay unified with an influx of unassimlated immigrants of this magnitude. This is national suicide in my opinion.
Excerpt of conversation at Frame’s abode:
….Frame (shouting): “…and you are totally racist, don’t try to deny it”!
(Mouse in corner looks in general direction of Frame flailing arms)
Frame (staring icily at mouse): “I don’t care if you are dating the cockroach, you have no cred here, Moron.”
Golfish: “Glub, glub”
Frame (with veins popping on forehead): “That is total bullshit! You can take that straw man and stick it in you gills! I refuse to argue with a fish who hasn’t been out of that tank in two years, so stick that victimhood shit! Idiot!
Where we don t agree is that the inevitable assimilation of the much of the Mexican culture is going to be either good or bad for the nation.
We don’t agree on that. The assimilation of Mexican culture is going to be good for America, if only because so many of them are practicing Christians (mainly Catholics) — surprised you, didn’t I?
It’s not our assimilation of them that is problematic — where I live, there’s about a dozen thriving new restaurants, and that’s in a town of less than 70,000. Two religious processions pass my house each year. It brings tears to my eyes just to type it now. Oh, yes, there going to have a positive effect (not to mention that the girls wear the tightest pants on the planet!)
It’s their assimilation of us that’s the problem. Somebody said before that third generation immigrants from Hispanic countries speak perfect English.
That’s fine, but in my neighborhood, they’re all 1st generation immigrants. Their children often get short – changed in the education department because their parents take them back and forth to Mexico for up to 10 months at a time.
And, by the way, Mike, you never — NEVER — heard me say that Mexicans had an inferior culture. You guys need to get your antennae repaired — I don’t know where you’re getting your signals from.
And, by the way, I don’t see why I have to define “American culture”, except in the most general of terms: (Putting together two definitions): The totality of socially transmitted behavior patterns, arts, beliefs, institutions, and all other products of human work and thought, considered as the expression of a particular period (now), and community (Americans here and now).
By the way, it’s not anybody’s speculation that is “causing Oliver’s misinterpretation.” It’s Oliver’s attitude to deal with, I’m not solving his problems for him. If you want to tell me what I think, or tell me what I mean, then the mistakes are all yours. Like many of the people on this thread, Oliver is the kind of guy who forms an opinion from what he thinks you said, no matter what you say afterwards — kind of like frameone, JK, and jadegold… They just go on and on in their own little world, tossing out witticisms, snappy comebacks, insulting invective, you know what I mean — “sound and fury, signifying nothing.”
You could bury them in links and citations, and they’d never change their minds, but they’re amazed when you don’t. If I’m reading them wrong, feel free to show me the error of my ways.
One of the more amazing things about these threads is that I have found myself “debating” as many as four or five people, with insults thrown in for good measure, people popping in to say one thing about me, and leaving; and then somebody says that I’m making the thread “all about me.” Like I held a gun to their heads!
“This is national suicide in my opinion.”
One more racist, for the road.
I know this means I lose the debate but Hitler sold the Germans on the idea that the Jews were destroying the pure German national culture.
Oliver ought to pull you perps.
framefan: You are playing with fire…
That Paul is one dangerous dude.
Think Ted Bundy with an internet connection.
Yes, frameone, you lost the debate — about two days ago.
Oliver, there is nothing “implicit in my premise.” We’re not looking at a third party’s work, and disagreeing about it. You’re talking about me, and I’m telling you what I mean, and you’re telling me, “That’s not what you mean; you mean something else.”
If you said, “It seems like you’re saying this or that,” that would be fair, and that would represent a (sort of a) request for clarification. But, when you’re saying, “This is what I say you mean (no matter what you might subsequently argue) that’s not a debate — that’s more like a prosecutor’s argument, but there’s no jury.
Do you remember this statement by Jay C yesterday?
His [meaning my] questions seemed rhetorical at best. It didn’t change the tone of the comments one bit, and no one even disputed it.
“(not to mention that the girls wear the tightest pants on the planet!)”
This would be, um. your devout Catholic side talking, Frank?
The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak.
*scratches head*
What I figure, Frank, is that American “culture” is nothing more than a conglomeration of other cultures. I’m betting that what you consider to be American culture is primarily white, European culture with an American twist. When I was growing up, smart and successful people listened to European classical music, recited poetry, and read Proust. American culture has always been far more rich and diverse than that. Just ask the Native American folks out there.
I am choosing to ignore the comment about young girls in tight pants. Can’t afford to get my blood pressure that high.
BTW, I certainly don’t arrive here just to see what Frank said today; or thinking “How can I get Frank today?” But you sure do make it easy and fun. Maybe Oliver ought to thank you for boosting the numbers on his site meter.
nursepam: “I m betting that what you consider to be American culture is primarily white, European culture with an American twist.” You’d lose.
[Earth to NursePam: About eight people said that to me in the last three days. They were just as wrong as you are.]
You know what cracks me up about you?
You come strolling onto the blog after three days, you probably haven’t read a word I posted. After all, elevated BP blurs the vision.
I know you didn’t read this: “If you want to tell me what I think, or tell me what I mean, then the mistakes are all yours.”
If you figure that “American culture is nothing more than a conglomeration of other cultures,” than you are woefully uneducated in the subject of culture, American or otherwise.
And the next time you want to ignore a comment, ignore it, OK? I didn’t make the comment with you in mind, and I don’t care what you think about it, either.
If you didn’t come here to “get me,” then what’s with the condescending and snide remarks?
Go back to the trailer, Toots, I think “Wheel of Fortune” is coming on. That’s your culture.
If you figure that American culture is nothing more than a conglomeration of other cultures, than you are woefully uneducated in the subject of culture, American or otherwise.
I don’t mean to cherry-pick comments and this is in no way directed at you,Frank, but it could be argued that “American culture” is something more that a conglomeration of other cultures? What I mean is that American culture is more than the sum of its parts. Not for better or worse, just more.
We as a society benefit from diversity.
OT, why don’t we have a Secretary of Culture in this country anyway? Other civilized Western coutries have a Minister of Culture. We don’t. I wonder why? Maybe because many Americans wouldn’t know culture if it hit ‘em in the head with a strad.
BTW, I am a newbie poster here, relatively speaking. I thoroughly enjoy the intellectual jousting that goes on between the primary combatants here (and you know who you are) and, though I don’t remember what was said to make me sign up and respond, it was most likely Frank D. A bunch of you folks are probably a lot smarter than I, but I thank you for allowing me to speak.
It could be argued that American culture is something more that a conglomeration of other cultures?
Something more, something other — not much difference.
This from another thread:
The point I have been trying to make literally for days, despite a heavy blowback, is that saying that American culture is an amalgamation of other cultures, is really saying nothing at all, because all cultures are an amalgamation of other cultures. It’s like saying, “I drive a car with rubber wheels and an internal combustion engine.”
Saying that America is a “nation of immigrants” is a similar description. There is hardly a nation on earth that is not populated with people from different countries.
Frank: The tone of your original comment from which Oliver responded directly was a tone of “Why is nobody talking about what is going to happen to American culture because of all of the Mexicans coming into the country?” If all countries are a “nation of immigrants” or an “amalgamation of other cultures”, then why SHOULD anyone be talking about what is going to happen to American culture? It is what it is. Let it be. The issue shouldn’t be the culture and how it will change, the issue should be about what to do with the 11 million immigrants and how to prevent more from coming over illegally. Apparently [according to you] it was all a big mis-understanding and your intentions were true, but I still cannot explain from your responses what exactly the original comment regarding why no one is talking about the culture aspect was meant to say or show or prove?
Were you simply implying that some person at some point will be framing these issues as such as opposed to how it ought to be framed? I don’t think that is the case as the last statement in the post your comments was pulled from is “Pretending that there is no American culture to protect is hiding your head in the sand.” Why do we need to protect it? Let the melting pot melt a little more. What’s the big deal?
When conservatives do frame the issue like this, it makes them a racist and that is the “answer” to their framing of the issue.
mike, first of all, take racist out of the picture. I don’t like being accused of being one, even tangientally, I don’t know what it means to sound, act, or look like a racist. I am not one.
Talking about immigration is not the same as being opposed to immigration.
Maybe this will make it clearer: Valuing your culture requires something. If you were affected by Mexican immigration in the real, immediate and personal way that I am, you’d have a better understanding of what I am talking about.
Frameone blithely talks about having Hispanics around him that “have been here for hundreds of years.” Most of you, don’t see a Hispanic person until you go out to eat and he brings a pitcher of water to your table. If you’re really lucky, he trims your hedges and cuts your grass.
I have to deal with people who don’t speak English unless it’s necessary, on a daily business. First they don’t understand you, then they ask if you speak Spanish, then they speak English, when all else fails. I’ve missed appointments because of receptionists whose English is so poor, I didn’t understand what they said over the phone. Is it their fault? No.
Who hired them? A person who doesn’t care — the kind of person you are — the kind of person you want me to be.
Lots of Mexican kids get hauled off to Mexico by their parents for months and months at a time, and, as a result, they get left back in our local schools when they return. Who cares? Not people like you. No, I care. I guess that makes me a racist, huh?
Some of these kids end up in Special Ed, where they do not belong, and then they end up with that stigma. Who cares? Not you. No, I care. I guess that makes me a racist.
I’ve lived in this town all my life. Now there are places where I go that the clerks, waiters and waitresses, operators and receptionists can’t even speak English. It’s inconvenient as hell, if I can get away with not going back, I don’t. If they go out of business, who cares? Not you. No, I care. I guess that makes me a racist.
Mexican store owners cheat their countrymen with every sale, as the Italian predecessors did before them. Should we let that continue? Who cares? You don’t. I do. I guess that makes me a racist.
But keep pretending there are no problems. Keep telling yourself that millions of people waving foreign flags protesting the inability of their countrymen to stay here illegally, with our Congresspersons in the crowd, doesn’t represent a problem.
Maybe it will go away.
I’m actually trying to defend you here, Frank. All you have to do is answer the one question “why are the changes that the country will go through due to Mexican immigrants (illegal or legal or due to amnesty bills) a bad thing for the country?” You’ve said previously that you don’t think it will be a bad thing, but you have to at least admit that saying things like “Pretending that there is no American culture to protect is hiding your head in the sand. doesn’t make it sound as though you think a change is a good thing.
In another post recently you have attacked Paul as someone who puts words in your mouth and now you are putting words in my mouth. I, however, don’t give a shit as I can clear the record rather easily (not that I need to for the likes of frame or whoever knows that you like to do this as well and take everything you say with a grain of salt, which, oddly enough is what I do with everyone as a force of habit anyhow).
It sounds to me like you’re bitter about whatever problems have been occurring relating to dealing with Mexicans (and, you assume illegality but do not KNOW they are illegal). Sure, it’s a nuisance to not know Spanish and then have to deal with the consequences, but I don’t see a reason for us not to learn Spanish in schools. Learning a foreign language at a young age is much easier and can actually help us understand English better as well as direct objects and verb tenses are necessary to speaking both languages well.
I agree that if kids are dragged over the border year in and year out then that’s a problem, but I don’t know enough about the issue to comment otherwise. I’m assuming it’s well documented so I’ll keep my eye open for an article about this topic.
If I was in charge in hiring someone to man my phones, I would hire someone who was fluent in both English and Spanish (if living in an area with a large Hispanic population). So, if you didn’t understand the person speaking English to you with a Hispanic accent, well, maybe you need to get out more or have it repeated rather than sitting there being frustrated. So, no, I would not hire illegals who did not speak English that well. And, yes, I do care that people do hire inadequate help, and that’s what it’s all about, inadequate service, not Mexican culture replacing American culture.
For the record, I never said you were a racist, I said when righties (or lefties) begin framing the illegal immigrant issue as one about culture, then that is what is racist. The issue is about the legality and not the culture. What happens to our culture is going to happen regardless of what decisions are made now. People are going to continue to come across the border, both legally and illegally. It is inevitable for bordering countries to share cultural habits, just as you have stated previously. It is why we will probably adopt something similar to the Canadian health care plan.
How do Mexican store owners cheat their countrymen with every sale? The Mexican store owners would not have been able to be store owners in Mexico as people in America have more liquid assets. I don’t understand your logic. Or maybe it’s as you insinuate. I don’t care. Riiiiiiight.
Perhaps you could see people waving foreign flags protesting the inability of their countryment to stay here illegally as the solution and not a problem. They are explicitly telling the government what they want. Put them on a path to citizenship (with slight penalties) and they won’t have to protest now will they? And, it will benefit the country culturally. It will add people to pay into social security. Some of them will become rich and pay even more into the treasury.
In any event, you complete dodged the main purpose of my last post which was to clarify why exactly the American melting pot including Mexican culture is something to be worried about.
I said (he repeated) that it was their seeming failure to acculturate, that is infuriating many many Americans. While I find it frustrating, others are becoming incensed. Syre, Mexicans don’t have to acculturate, strictly speaking, and, sure, the incensed Americans don’t have to be incensed, but that is what’s happening.
Read this => she says it better than I can
Key graf:
“Syre” should be “sure”
Compare that to this:
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articles/article.html?id=13559
This guy is mad!
Frank: Giving 11 million people amnesty and teaching kids another language (or two, like maybe Mandarin – which would be worst case scenaraio to these “mad” people) would definitely not make America a “Hispanic nation”. We will always be an “American” nation as you have so stated with roots that stem from Hispanics, Germany, Italy, (rest of Europe and other Western countries), the rest of the world. Just like most other countries. What makes American culture so special anyhow, besides that it is something me and you both share? I like baseball and hot dogs (at least I used to like hot dogs…) and going out to eat and seeing the theater and going to a concert with good music and interacting with people and, well, come to think of it, what makes this any different than Britain or any other Western culture?
Just because a poll says a large majority of people are “concerned” about illegal immigration, that doesn’t mean said people aren’t willing to grant amnesty to the ones that are here. These continuous crap polls need to be stopped. They should not be used to frame the issue in every major media outlet. It’s an absolute disservice to the American public.
Your key graf: “Should America plan to become a Hispanic nation?” with the two possible answers of sporting the Mexican flag and calling senators to voice concern, is a piece of shit argument and you know it. It’s a false choice. The answer to the question does not exist because the duality between “becoming a Hispanic nation” and “staying an American nation” does not exist. That frame is a tired one that is used far too often in politics. The left uses it too with regards to taxes and benefits for all sorts of programs. Or by framing the tax rebate as benefitting the rich more. Sure, big picture, true, but they are burdened by taxes by quite a bit more. I would have no problem with Bush’s tax cuts if budget was actually balanced as well. This is my main beef with Bush’s economic policy and why I think it’s irresponsible. I hate the false choice frame. It’s one of my (many) pet peeves.
Acculturation is the exchange of cultural features which result when groups come into continuous firsthand contact. Either or both groups of the original cultural patterns may be changed a bit, but the groups remain distinct overall.
-Wikipedia
In other words, a melting pot, right?
In some respects, the southwestern portion of the country has always been a(n?) Hispanic nation. We moved the border after the war with Mexico, but everyone stayed here.