Not damn good at all
Bombers blasted the gilded dome of one of Shiite Islam’s holiest shrines into naked steel and gaping blue sky Wednesday in a provocative assault that roused tens of thousands of Iraqi Shiites into angry protests and deadly clashes.
The highest spiritual leaders of Iraq’s Shiite majority simultaneously rallied and restrained the outrage of their followers after the attack on the Askariya shrine in Samarra, about 65 miles north of Baghdad. Though no casualties were reported, the bombing was the most destructive attack on a major shrine since the U.S. invasion, and Iraqi leaders said it was meant to draw Shiites and Sunnis into war. “This is as 9/11 in the United States,” said Adel Abdul Mahdi, a Shiite and one of Iraq’s two vice presidents.
Is it any wonder that both Bill O’Reilly and Rush Limbaugh are both moving towards the Murtha plan for redeployment from Iraq?
Related
Rumsfeld
Creepy Disingenuous Liars
A Leadership Deficit
I realize that the bombing of a holy mosque is bad.
However, given the history of the people, it seems to me that having Shiite leaders calling for rallying for and calling for restraint is a good thing.
The willful arrogance and hubris of the Bush administration have led Iraq to disaster. The blinders are coming off, but what a price to pay. Truly a sad day for all Iraqis and all Americans.
I think you mean when Nixon threw Cambodia to the wolves.
There is no joy in an Iraqi civil war. Personally, I often wonder how things might have been if we’d really pressed the case in Afghanistan. We’d have been less hated in the muslim world, we might have apprehended bin Laden, and we wouldn’t have created the breeding ground for terrorism that is the New Iraq. But then, Bush wouldn’t have had as strong a campaign platform, would he?
And I suppose you, and all the other lefties, are creaming in your jeans, like they did when they threw Viet Nam to the wolves.
My answer is, bring them on. We ve got the force necessary to deal with the security situation.
For a while these words were a joke. Now they’re just tragic. Arrogant. Incompetent. Willfully out of touch. It’s going to take a long time to recover from Bush’s folly.
TomY: Were you 4 years old in 1970? Go read a book
Anyway, there was no winning the Viet Nam war, despite right wing attempts to blame the media and liberals and whatever bogeymen you invent. Viet Nam was bound to be reunified, and it clearly wasn’t the south that was going to make that happen. But if any country was “thrown to the wolves” wrt the Viet Nam war, it was Cambodia, my man. By all means, read up on what our bombing campaign kicked off over there. It makes the cruelties of the vietnamese communists look like nothing.
TomY, et al. My wife left Saigon at the age of 6 from the American embassy, where her father worked. Their experiences and perception of the events of which you speak are so incredibly different so as to make me wonder how the perceptions and political viewpoints of the opponents of that war have blinded them to the results of our abandoning those when we pulled our troops.
Oh wise and wonderful Frank_D here to blast anyone he does not deem worthy to debate and discuss History. Who gives a rats ass if those that disagree with you are 12, 28 or 96? Go read a book written for those that are still bent out of shape by from the 60’s he barks!
I think you are too old to argue this point, your perspective is too clowded with prejudices and faulty memories. First you make a crass comment that those of us that think differently are happy that a war we don’t support is going poorly then you insult us for something outside of our control: our age.
Grow up.
Frank, I’m referring to the Kissinger-devised bombing campaign that destabilized Cambodian society and made it vulnerable to the Khmer Rouge. Sort of like if a Shia dictator takes power and wipes out the Sunnis in a hideous civil war, it will be on George Bush’s concience.
Like the liberals in the ’60s and ’70s who argued against an immoral war, we’re sadly proven right again and American lives are sacrificed for the “best and brightest”.
“And I suppose you, and all the other lefties, are creaming in your jeans …”
Ya Frank, we’re creaming in our jeans that a war we didn’t agree with and which many of us argued would end badly if not in disaster now seems to headed straight into the ditch — or is that a mass grave? I think the real question here is why war-supporters such as yourself and others aren’t hanging your fucking heads in shame for cheerleading this nightmare into existence.
Can you even hear yourself? Two rival religious factions who have been antognists for centuries are now openly killing one another in Baghdad because we couldn’t keep a lid on a country we invaded preemptively. Through it all Bush goaded Sunni insugents to “bring it on” and hasn’t changed course an inch, not one god damn inch. And who is to blame for all this? Liberals, of course, liberals who said the whole thing was a bad idea planned by incompetents from the get go. That makes perfect sense.
No, no, I think that what FrankD is saying is that he was 4 years old in 1970, and that’s why he has the unique perspective on the war in Indochina that can only be gained by reading books by severely biased military biographers. Hey Frank, read a book: Daniel Ellsberg’s memoirs about the years he spent working on the Viet Nam conflict, and his ensuing decision to leak the so-called Pentagon Papers, although I’m comfortable guessing that a good conservative Republican like yourself would never attempt to learn something by reading outside your little groupthink canon. Your loss, not mine. Though you may have given me the imaginary band name I’ve been seeking–Jeans Creamers. It’s just so silly, I love it! Or perhaps the Creamin’ Jeanies. Gotta tell ya Frank, I don’t know why you hate America so much, but at least you’re an imaginative little tweeker. And that counts for something when the day of judgement is at hand, right?
All right, maybe this will clarify my perspective. Barbara Tuchman, writing on Vietnam: “”The folly consisted not in pursuit of a goal in ignorance of the obstacles but in persistence in the pursuit despite accumulating evidence that the goal was unattainable, and the effect disproportionate to the American interest and eventually damaging to American society, reputation and disposable power in the world.”
Sound familiar?
banafishbones: I was in Viet Nam in 1970. And I was home when Ellsberg leaked the so – called Pentagon Papers to the NY Times (natch).
Perhaps you don’t know that most of what was “revealed” was written about years before. Despite what you might be “comfortable guessing” (as if there is anything that a liberal wouldn’t be comfortable guessing) I’m comfortable guessing that I know more about Viet Nam than you, not because I was there, but because I have read dozens of books about it (both in opposition to, and in favor of) before and after my stay there.
How very creative of you, to use a term to describe me that you found on the Internet, that describes a drug user and a thief. Ingenious.
BTW, Barbara Tuchman’s views on the Viet Nam war, are well known, even to people who ran out and found a quote on the Internet.
Southpaw. dueling demonstrators is not a “full blown civil war.” When did you begin using the Oliver Willis Hyperbole Guide to Blog Writing?
frameone: I never said liberals were to blame for what’s going on in Iraq (although I realize how important it is to liberals to assign blame to others, while deflecting it from themselves). What I said was, now liberals are thrilled, getting an opportunity for a big “I told you so.”
Incidentally, contrary to Oliver’s Army dogma, O’Reilly and Limbaugh don’t run the country. Also, I’m sure that if the Americans leave Iraq anytime before 2525, victorious or not, liberals will take credit for “making it happen.”
TomY: I’m not going to argue with you. If you want to believe that the bombing of people who were cooperating with their Stalinist neighbors, somehow empowered their native communist troops, so be it.
Now that full blown civil war has broken out in Iraq, I wonder how long it will take for the neocons to blame this on the Dems and anyone else who was protesting the American invasion led by Bush and Cheney. June 2002 Halliburton stock was $7 a share. Now it is over $70 a share. Lots of people making lots of money because of the war in Iraq.
Ahh, its Thursday AM and OW is once again using a tragedy involving loss of life as a poliitcal rallying point.
You have to have phenomenally immature judgment to take a single incident and turn it into a summary judgment on an entire multi-year war effort – or any effort. By YOUR criteria you are always easy pickings for terrorists. Want to get your way against American progressives. Want to bully a people back into the dark ages, even if they have the most powerful nation in the world behind them. Just blow up a few innocent people. The progressives will tuck their tails between their legs , run home and quit.
Its too bad most of you voted for representatives who voted for this war.
What were you thinking?
or better
What. Were you thinking?
Dugger, Gonna do a tough job, then see it through, or, by God, don’t even start.
Dugger: “I told you so” can take many forms. Expect many more similar constructions in the future.
WHY THE FUCK ARE THESE COMMENTS GETTING MODERATED!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sistani is apparently the only voice of reason that has been able to
restrain the Shia from all-out revenge and extermination of the
Sunni population. He has been a rock in a sea of mud from day one
of the invasion. Let’s pull for those, who like him, want the best for
their people. The truly humanitarian heroes are few in any culture.
That is one reason they are held in high esteem, because of their
rarity.
He is too powerful a figure for Al Sadr to countermand his authority
and proceed with his agenda of hatred and ‘religious’ fervor.
I know many think the left has been chomping at the bit for
civil war so that they can say, ‘I told you so’.
That is not true.
‘Cut and Run’ indeed.
We shouldn’t have to run, if we had not ‘cut’ from the pack of
experts who recognized the chaos which would result from
foreign occupation in Iraq. We should not have ‘cut and run’
from our focus on Bin Laden and Afghanistan and undertaken
this ‘Nation Building’.
What I will regret most of all if we ‘cut and run’ will be the familes
of the dead and the thousands of blind, parlayzed and amputated
vets of this war asking themselves “Was this sacrifice worth the
cost’.
Frank, typically, is heavy on the insults and light on the facts. At least Dugger provides the comic irony.
“Want to bully a people back into the dark ages, even if they have the most powerful nation in the world behind them. Just blow up a few innocent people.”
That’s funny, coming from a conservative pantshitter who happily trades his freedoms out of terror. Is that the smell of irony or does your Freedom diaper just need changing?
“once again using a tragedy involving loss of life as a poliitcal (sic) rallying point”
You’re just oblivious to the irony, aren’t you? Incredible. Anyway, let’s all cross our fingers and hope for the best in Iraq. But let’s not forget who put us in the position where hope was the best plan available: Bush.
Yes, TomY, when it’s my turn, I’m “heavy on the insults.” When it’s your turn, I guess I deserve it, eh?
Look, there isn’t much to say about this that hasn’t been said. Liberals want to find ten ways to say “I told you so,” without actually coming off as either ghoulish or juvenile. You can’t get around that: Consider your following Tuchman’s quote with “Sound familiar?”
Conservatives, on the other hand, are defensive about this, and want to be otimistic: Even a civil war could result in democracy (see History, United States, 1861 – 1865).
When attitudes become that personalized, even you must admit that a bunch of facts, from either side, aren’t going to change anybody’s mind.
For all of you thinking “This is another Viet Nam,” I warn you, and I mean warn, that, for the sake of the dead and wounded, for the sake of the veterans, for the sake of the military’s future, and for the sake of the United States and possibly the western (read Christian) world, it better not be. Sounds apocalyptic? You bet.
Oh ya, Liberals do love to say “I told you so,” just like conservatives love to say “No one could have predicted.” As in:
“No one could have predicted terrorists would fly planes into buildings.”
“No one could have predicted that there would be sectarian insurgency in Iraq.”
“No one could have predicted that the levees would break.”
Keep it up boys, keep it up.
frameone: a simple parsing of both sentences would tell you that the “throwing of the Viet Nam to the wolves,” had already occurred. If the left puts sufficient pressure on, and through, the media; and sufficient pressure on the powers that be; and changes the perception of the situation in Iraq as doomed to failure — all tactics that were used between 1970 and 1973, with regard to Viet Nam — then we could say that the left will have thrown Iraq to the wolves.
“You have to have phenomenally immature judgment to take a single incident and turn it into a summary judgment on an entire multi-year war effort …”
Ah yes because the mature response is to regard every act of sectarian violence in isolation, without context and totally unconnected to any linear, causal chain of events. Because the mature response is to never look for patterns, never identify trends, never attempt to assess progress. Afterall, what could it possibly mean that after a multi-year war effort Shiite insurgents are still able to pull off spectacular acts of violence, Sunni death squads are able to pull prisoners out of jails and execute them in the street and we’ve all but given up on any kind of meaningful reconstruction effort?
It’s positively infantile to consider these developments together. Hell, the rational thing to do is to not even consider these things developments, they’re just stuff that happened with no relation, for no reason and from which no conclusions can be drawn. How’s that saying go? Maturity is bliss?
“I never said liberals were to blame for what s going on in Iraq …”
So that Vietnam analogy – “like they did when they threw Viet Nam to the wolves” – meant what exactly?
You liberals and your stubborn drive for the truth! Your desire for peace and prosperity sickens me, sickens me I say! All this talk of equality and freedom is only making this war worse!
Wrong side of History – u quailtard.
It’s not the left’s fault Iraq is unwinnable, Frank. This was a clusterfuck in its conception and a clusterfuck throughout its execution. That’s a responsibility that the administration and its enablers will not evade, no matter how much you wriggle.
Frank,
Naturally you weren’t suggesting that liberals now are already doing the same thing that liberals did then, that is, throwing someone to the wolves: “… the other lefties, are creaming in your jeans, like they did when …” The sentence doesn’t read “if liberals do this” it says they’re doing it.
But why parse your idiotic sentences when it’s patently obvious where you stand. You have yet to say anything critical of the people who planned the invasion, planned the occupation, planned the reconstruction and planned the response to the insurgency. Is Iraq doomed to failure? No. But is anyone with any power to change the current course it’s on actually doing anything to change that course? No. We’ve all but given up on any kind of meaningful reconstruction effort and we’re arming a Sunni dominated military to police a Shiite dominated insurgency. Naturally, of course, is this brilliant logic goes south it will be because liberals distorted the perception of the war at home. Frank, how on earth can someone distort the perception of a mosque with a giant hole where it’s dome used to be? As Dugger so rightly points out we’re deep into a multi-year military effort that has yielded exactly zero in terms of security for the Iraqi people. I have another post awaiting moderation for some reason on Dugger’s comments but they stand just as well for your assertions that this is all going to turn on perception because things are really going swimingly. Dugger’s answer to liberal criticism of our policy in Iraq is to take each event of spectacular violence as if it existed in isolation, without context, completely unconnected from a linear, causal chain of events. It’s all just a bunch of sound and fury signifying nothing. Because if it was allowed to signify anything it certainly wouldn’t be success. It’s Dugger and yourself who want to distort the perception of what’s happening in Iraq, not liberals.
Once again, Frank: “The folly consisted not in pursuit of a goal in ignorance of the obstacles but in persistence in the pursuit despite accumulating evidence that the goal was unattainable, and the effect disproportionate to the American interest and eventually damaging to American society, reputation and disposable power in the world.”
Frank, yer making me laugh so hard I’m crying. Really, I need a tissue to scour the cream from my jean and the tear from mine eye. Please do explain how “persistence in the pursuit” is/was not “damaging to American society, reputation and disposable power in the world” in either the Viet Nam or the current Iraqi conflict. See, maybe I’m a little stupid in your eyes for not seeing this as plainly as the wide blue sky, but I gotta say that you seem a lot stupid to me for even suggesting… Hey, FrankD isn’t another John Podhoretz’s alter egos, is it? Podhoretz, you intellectually lazy self-loathing crypto-hippie! Quit hiding behind those stupid nyms. Your number is UP!
I didn’t say it was, T-Y. I explained how it could be. And. of course, you’re borrowing Tuchman’s quote (which I don’t accept as accurate) to make the same the same statement about Iraq (which is neither appropriate nor accurate).
Damn moderated again.
I think the real question here is why war-supporters such as yourself and others aren t hanging your fucking heads in shame for cheerleading this nightmare into existence.
A-FUCKING-MEN!
Frank says:
I was in Viet Nam in 1970
…and, yet, you learned NOTHING. I’m seething with anger at you Bush supporters, at you Iraq war supporters. Your short-sightedness has failed the Iraqi people, failed OUR soldiers, failed their children, failed our country, and failed the world. Your ideology has left nothing by misery in it’s wake. Iraqi will continue to burn for this administrations arrogance and the flames with undoubtedly spread to our shores (most likely the ones owned by foreign Arab governments). You blame others for your lack of vision, (the Media, Lefties, Jane Fonda)…because you have NEVER been brave enough to point the finger at yourselves. You’ll walk away to wash the blood off your hands, admiring the color of the water.
As the debacle in Iraq continues to grow, so should your shame that you ever shared one breath of support for this misadventure.
If the left puts sufficient pressure on, and through, the media; and sufficient pressure on the powers that be; and changes the perception of the situation in Iraq as doomed to failure
Oh my FUCKING GOD! Seriously. The idea that an Iraqi invasion was “doomed to failure” came from a clear notion that pre-emptive warfare against Iraq was an inherently flawed policy; that Saddam, even through his brutal tactics, could barely contain the indigenous warring factions; that 150,000 troops would not be enough to stabilize a post-invasion Iraq; that disbanding the Iraqi army would only fuel an insurgency; that leaving massive weapons depos unprotected would then arm that insurgency. It is a conclusion based on the evidence before us – facts – if you will. But maybe, since everything in your tiny mind, everything you believe, is based on “hope” and “faith”, it makes sense to you that one could just close their eyes tight enough, maybe cheer loud enough, and the outcome would change. There is no ROOM for fact in your worldview, so you shun those who’d seek it, and blame them for the failures you zealously triumph.
Look, there isn t much to say about this that hasn t been said. Liberals want to find ten ways to say I told you so, without actually coming off as either ghoulish or juvenile.
And you want nothing more than an excuse to avoid looking at the mess you supported. Look, because of people like you, Bush and his cronies have held the reigns of power in this country. Their failures are YOUR failures. The “left” tried it’s damnedest to STOP THIS WAR (Iraq, not Afghanistan)…and I can say without hesistant that it absolutely KILLS ME to be right about the failures in Iraq. I’m terrified of the ripple effect this will have on our country, my family, my future children, my current loved ones.
That you can even imagine anyone would be “happy” about the death and destruction going on in Iraqi right now says a lot about your character, Frank.
I’m absolutely disheartended that people like you exist, ie: one who can actually fail to learn from one disaster (Vietnam) after another (Iraq), since that most certainly means you’ll gladly support another.
I warn you, and I mean warn, that, for the sake of the dead and wounded, for the sake of the veterans, for the sake of the military s future, and for the sake of the United States and possibly the western (read Christian) world, it better not be
See, this is a perfect example of how twisted and moronic your thought process on this whole thing really is. See, your statement is nothing more than HOPE. It is ignorant of every single shread of evidence before this debacle, stating that it would not, in fact, be a wise idea to invade Iraq; that is would, most likely, turn out *exactly* as it has.
Btw, what will you do, old man, if it is “another Vietnam”? Send more soldiers to die before you admit it? Support a War in Iran to help bolster your sense of self-worth? Vote Republican and continue to downfall of our once great country?
Curmudgeon, exactly. This isn’t about I told you so. We need everyone to stand up together as Americans and denounce this war. It’s because of these ‘blinded by the light of the burning Bush” supporters that we’ve continued to ’stay the course’. The only way OFF this course is to denouce this war, take back all our support of it and come up with a plan of action as one voice to end it; repair our damage, don’t declare ourselves ‘victorious’ because we fixed something we destroyed, and get the hell out of there so we can focus on quelling terrorism the way we should have done from the get go.
Three friggin’ diatribes! Where do I begin? How about this: Each one was insulting and condescending and arrogant enough for me to say I’m not answering any of you. Can’t you guys get your lips off the crack pipe long enough to be civil for a few paragraphs?:
“But why parse your idiotic sentences”
“Frank, yer making me laugh so hard I m crying”
“you seem a lot stupid to me”
“I m absolutely disheartended that people like you exist, ie: one who can actually fail to learn from one disaster (Vietnam) after another (Iraq), since that most certainly means you ll gladly support another.”
“See, this is a perfect example of how twisted and moronic your thought process on this whole thing really is.”
“Btw, what will you do, old man, if it is another Vietnam ?”
Now, really, did you expect an answer?
What a pretense of superiority from such vocabulary – deprived, vicious, mean – spirited individuals. Your mothers would be proud.
Typical non-answer answer there Frank. When you got nothing, you really got nothing.
And there was something I was going to say to all of you, but you certainly don’t deserve to be treated any better than you treated me. You know, this really has to stop. You guys are like animals. Aren’t you aware of all the credibility you lose, when you come off like that?
BTW, Rounds77: “focus on quelling terrorism the way we should have done from the get go.” And that would have been how? (and, please, not the “Find Osama and hang him” mantra)
When you say nothing, Paul, you get an equivalent response.
You can catch more flies, etc.
The insurgency is in its last throes because now the civil war is on.
If the left puts sufficient pressure on, and through, the media; and sufficient pressure on the powers that be; and changes the perception of the situation in Iraq as doomed to failure all tactics that were used between 1970 and 1973, with regard to Viet Nam then we could say that the left will have thrown Iraq to the wolves.
Frank, I’ll give you credit if you were in Viet Nam. While I was not personally there, I knew lots of folks who were. Sadly, some of them are no longer around to tell about it. However, there is one thing that hasn’t been brought up here. The very reason the war escalated into what it became, the Gulf of Tonkin Incident, was a planned scheme to draw the US further into the war. It’s all in the LBJ library. The tapes were recently played on PBS. There is also an article at http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0805-09.htm
A war based on false pretenses is doomed for failure from the beginning. Whenever the public finds out the’ve been snookered, the support drops off exponentially. Such was the case in Viet Nam and I believe such is the case with Iraq. Blaming it on liberals, or the Easter Bunny for that matter, does not change anything. Nothing personal, that’s just the way I see it.
Mr. C -
Thank you for that Rant and for your passion against this war.
“When you say nothing, Paul, you get an equivalent response.”
Uh? You’ve regurgitated a 30-year-old argument that was bullsh*t back then. It hasn’t grown any less pungent with age. Why should anyone treat you with any kind of respect when your whole response to the situation in Iraq is to blame the people who have been the least responsible for what’s been happening over there, that is, anti-war liberals? In addition to the litany of this administration’s failed policy and strategic decisions cited by Curmudgeon above, who decided it was a good idea to shut the State Department out of the reconstruction effort and put in its place a bunch of inexperienced kids straight out of their local College Republican chapter? Think about that. Early on, this administration decided out of spite and petty territoriality to exclude from its reconstruction plan (after it finally got around to thinking one up) the one federal department most experienced in and prepared for the building and fostering of democratic institutions in foreign countries. In its place it put loyal, careerist party hacks with no experience and no qualifications. Billions of dollars went missing, the new Iraqi government is a virtual theocracy and sectarian violence is boiling over. It’s simply astonishing how desperate and craven the supporters of this war have become.
Frame, Mr.C: Thank you and yes indeedy, what you all said, plus the holy-war aspects of this civil war we’ve fomented in Iraq is a big reason that this nightmare could be ten times worse than Indochina. Our involvement in Viet Nam didn’t risk destabilizing the global economy and the security of so many other nations. Turkey is the tripwire here. If the Kurds secede from the Sunni/Shia insanity and Turkey goes insane, we’re all screwed. But then, maybe we’re all already inexorably screwed, thank you Mr. Bush. With that in mind, why do certain cons persist in suggesting that there could be anything enjoyable about this Cassandra complex? Like there’s been anything about this war to be happy about these past few years? Sure the troops have done a few good things. I hope a few Iraqis survive long enough to benefit.
And Frank, of course I expected a response, and you thoughtfully provided one. I know you can’t help yourself, God bless your foolish credibility-starved heart. Dance, monkey.
Paul:Why should anyone treat you with any kind of respect…
Sure, Paul, you may be as disrespectful as you want. And I am free to tell you I don’t like it (I hope you agree). I am also free to describe “vocabulary – deprived, vicious and mean – spirited” posts as just that. And, of course, i don’t feel any partiular obligation to respond to them.
Finally, unless you want to come to my house, and type a response on my keyboard, I remain in control of that.
bfb: Now I’m a monkey? Real class.
“i don t feel any partiular obligation to respond to them.”
So why do you rspond to them?
I will say this, the obscenity of some of my word choices pales in comparison to the actual obscenity you daily support as a matter of national policy.
Paul: Is it possible you are developing a degenerative brain disease? Your posts are becoming less and less coherent each day. I didn’t say anything about obscenity. I was referring to your reserving to yourself the right to be disrespectful because you disagree with my with opinion.
I said (why am I explaining simple English to someone approaching their doctorate in a subject that involves writing?) “I don t feel any partiular obligation to respond to them.” I didn’t say I wouldn’t… I said (perhaps saying it three times might help your comprehension, “I don t feel any partiular obligation to respond to them.”
Got it now, Paul?
Silly monkey, you make me laugh again! Please, incoherently call more people incoherent! Maybe me next, please?
You’re failure to understand speaks even more poorly for you than it does for frameone. Perhaps you neglected to take your regular injection of haldol.
A war based on false pretenses is doomed for failure from the beginning. Like this one?
I forgot this one and this one.
Just wishful thinking on your part.
So you believe the Tonkin
Gulf Incident was totally legit?
Far be it for a mere mortal to argue with the great war historian.
Thanks monkey! That wasn’t totally incoherent, but the haldol zinger was a thing of beauty.
Where and when did I say that, bushwacked? (And may I remind you that we were involved in Viet Nam as early as 1961)
Gee, bfb, you’re able to follow a link, and read big words. We’ll get you out of the 4th grade in a few years, at this rate.
Getting you to stop calling me a monkey — that will take some time, I think. Your fixation with it reminds me of an eight year old giggling when he hears someone say “doo doo.”
Yeah, that’s going to take some work. Of course, I am optimistic about the ability of human beings to change their behaviors at any time.
Remember, you have to want to change. I can’t do it for you.
“(And may I remind you that we were involved in Viet Nam as early as 1961)”
Yes, that is true. It is also true that George Bush stills eats soup with a
spoon, even though he began using a spoon at 2 yrs of age.
I believe BW was referring to the massive escalation of the war in
VN which was enabled by the Tonkin Gulf resolution. Try debating
fairly, Frank. That is, if you are capable.
More importantly, try reading the “question” I was “asked”: So you believe the Tonkin Gulf Incident was totally legit?
I wasn’t even discussing that. I was disagreeing with his statement that “A war based on false pretenses is doomed for failure from the beginning.”
I presented him with three examples, if you follow the links, of wars that began with deception, and ended well.
BTW, even Viet Nam didn’t end badly, because of the Tonkin Gulf Resolution.
Monkey, you’re so mean to me! Flinging poo after all the attention I give you, you ought to be ashamed! Bad, bad monkey.