America’s Shame

February 15th, 2006 Politics 94 Comments


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15 of the 60 photos from Abu Ghraib that the Bush administration is trying to have suppressed.

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94 Responses to “America’s Shame”

  1. BD says:
    February 15, 2006 at 9:02 am

    Even if they’re not evidence of torture, they’re evidence of our inability to win hearts and minds–in other words, evidence of work, from our troops, against the War on Terror.

    For the life of me, I can’t fathom why they felt the need to take photos. I’m not even addressing the need to abuse prisoners, but the need to take photos of that behavior.

  2. JD says:
    February 15, 2006 at 9:02 am

    Are any of those pictures evidence of the alleged torture ?

  3. Ryland says:
    February 15, 2006 at 10:02 am

    Yeah, drpedro, I’m sure the floors of fraternities all over the nation look like this on many a morning.

    Let us know when you pledge a frat, and be sure to take pictures! I hope you get to experience all the high-spirited pranks that those prisoners did!

  4. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 10:02 am

    and you’re a liar

  5. drpedro says:
    February 15, 2006 at 10:02 am

    It’s americas shame that we knew that sort of stuff was going on in Iraq and we did nothing for so long…

  6. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 10:02 am

    I’d say the one where the guy is winding up to punch a restrained prisoner is a little evidence. And the one where the guy has written on his ass and thigh “I am a pappest” (presumably “rapist”) is also some evidence, don’t you think? The one where dental work is apparently being done, I assume without anesthesia, must hurt like a mofo.

  7. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 10:02 am

    “This kind of puerile crap goes on every day at fraternities around the country.”
    That is the closest thing to an evil statement that I have seen on this site. The bullet wounds, the blood, the utter despair leading one to smash his head into a wall, the bloody and presumably un-anesthetized dental work, the punching in that back of the neck of a tied and hooded prisoner which could kill him very easily. Yeah, puerile. One day you’ll wake up and realize you lost your soul a long time ago and you can’t get it back.

  8. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 10:02 am

    It’s not America’s shame, it’s your party’s shame. “America” does not support this, your party does.

  9. drpedro says:
    February 15, 2006 at 10:02 am

    Holy crap…the person who did it is in prison….what more do you want.

    This kind of puerile crap goes on every day at fraternities around the country.

    Oliver why not show the video of Saddam’s henchmen chopping off limbs, and tossing people off of buildings, or tying remote control explosives to people if you are really interested in stopping abuses of prisoners.

  10. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 10:02 am

    Disregard, I gave you the benefit of the doubt that you were calling out the torture by americans. On closer reading I see that you are just saying that we should have invaded sooner. Ugly.

  11. midderpidge says:
    February 15, 2006 at 10:02 am

    Sick.

    The ones responsible are not in jail. There was a whistleblower retaliation trial yesterday as a matter of fact. This goes farther up the chain to the superiors, military intelligence people, all the way to the president. Its not just Abu Ghraib, abuse was widespread to most of the US run prisons in Iraq. Its in Iraq’s Iraqi run prisons. It’s at Gitmo, its in secret prisons, its in rendition, its in holding hostages and it all starts with the idiot that first authorized torture.

    I wonder what photos they’re hiding still.

  12. JD says:
    February 15, 2006 at 11:02 am

    Writing I am a rapeist on the back of a rapeist hardly strikes me as torture.

    You are willing to assume and presume that there was no anasthesia being used? Give me a break.

    What is wrong with the right? midderpidge would have you believe that the entire chain of command of our Armed Forces knew of, approved, and condoned this behavior, despite all evidence to the contrary.

  13. Oliver Willis says:
    February 15, 2006 at 11:02 am

    The infamously repugnant “we’re not as bad as Saddam” defense raises its head again. What is wrong with the right?

  14. midderpidge says:
    February 15, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    I think they’re withholding the photos of abused women prisoners and the worst of the abuse.

    Don’t be such a dishonest twit JD. I never said the entire chain of command knew of “this behavior”. I said torure was authorized and used, safeguards were removed. It led to the abuse by poorly supervised guards. The poor supervision goes up the chain, the policy of torture goes up the chain, and other decisions like not sending JAG officers to oversee prisoner interrogations goes up the chain. It starts with the president and his people such as Feith.

  15. BD says:
    February 15, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    Oliver why not show the video of Saddam s henchmen chopping off limbs, and tossing people off of buildings, or tying remote control explosives to people if you are really interested in stopping abuses of prisoners.

    I don’t understand how showing video of Saddam’s crimes would stop us from committing our own.

    And the “fraternities” meme is tired and wrong. Unless you know of fraternities where the pledges have been rounded up at gunpoint.

  16. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    JD, how the hell do you know if the “rapeist” was actually a rapist? Are you really willing to make up shit to justify your own bloodlust? I can’t think of any other reason why you would convince yourself that this prisoner was a rapist without any evidence. As for the anesthesia, it seems a reasonable assumption to me based on their failure to show any concern for the pain the prisoners were suffering in every other picture, but I could be wrong. How about the fact that if that is surgery/dental work, they are clearly not using adequatly sanitary conditions to conduct surgery. I think somewhere in the geneva conventions we’re required to do so. But that doesn’t matter to you.

  17. drpedro says:
    February 15, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    might have been “rapist” if they were really clever they were trying to spell “Papist”

    Those pictures say nothing of circumstances….

    Is it possible that these were holding cells for new prisoners with battle wounds explaining the blood? I didn’t see the one of the “dental work”, but is it possible he had a mouth wound, and a medic was trying to fix it?

    as far as responsibility goes….when I was in the navy we were told we were not to follow an illegal order…or could request that order in writing. where I was raised a person was responsible for their own actions.

    Pidge and his ilk can blame this on the Barvarian Illuminati as far as I am concerned it doesn’t change the fact that the individuals who demonstrably perpetrated this are in prison where they belong.

    So, where are the links to Saddam chopping off limbs, throwing people off roofs and blowing them up? Not really interested in that eh?

  18. Semanticleo says:
    February 15, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    Some guy to post this pic link on “All Things Beautiful” but the maven
    of truth, justice and religious piety, Alexandra Von Maltzen, deleted it
    because it was ‘disgusting’. Indeed it was, alexandra, but I doubt you
    have the same definition as most right thinking folks.

  19. Oliver Willis says:
    February 15, 2006 at 1:02 pm

    I’m an American in America. What my country does reflects us all. My standard isn’t “not as bad as Saddam”.

  20. drpedro says:
    February 15, 2006 at 1:02 pm

    Oh, mjb is now a dental hygienist?

    Maybe you should stick to what you know mjb….What exactly is it that you know? It isn’t obvious from your posting here….

    By the way my other post is still awaiting moderation…

  21. drpedro says:
    February 15, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    What is your standard then?

    Can prisoners, terrorist be at all uncomfortable? How can we, in the perfect “Ollie-world” interrogate prisoners? Do they need to be Mirandized?

    I certainly don’t support what the people did in Abu Ghraib, but we put them in prison….what more do you want? It was illegal, and they were prosecuted.

    Stop with the righteous indignation straw-man of “My standard isn’t ‘not as bad as Saddam’”…you sound ridiculous as no one I know is promoting that standard.

  22. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    Dugger, in the conservative all-or-nothing mind I’m sure that it makes sense to you that our criticisms must mean that we think Bush is literally as bad as Hitler. But in the rational world we realize that Odub’s website does not have to be shut down nor do jackboots need to come to our door and pistol whip us for us to see the seeds of undue executive power in Bush’s policies and we know history so we see how this might end.

  23. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    “Oh, mjb is now a dental hygienist?
    Maybe you should stick to what you know mjb& .What exactly is it that you know? It isn t obvious from your posting here& .”

    Great strawman. Now address what I said.

  24. drpedro says:
    February 15, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    Great strawman. Now address what I said

    How the hell can I do that…? You spouted a bunch of uneducated opinions about what you saw in a picture…

    What’s to address? You’re an idiot, and you made that perfectly clear in your post…nothing for me to add

  25. Dugger says:
    February 15, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    I wonder if ever occurs to the apocalytpic conpiracy theorists here that if George Bush is so evil, so intent on repressing progressives, and the Patriot Act so vile, how, in fact, are you able to look at those pictures. OW hasn’t been shut down yet and he showed them. I doubt he’s even had any jack- or jill-booted thugs knocking on his door. Wonder why. Frat boy can engineer the entire Iraq war and brainwash half the Democratic Party into voting his way, but can’t suppress a few government photos. Just doesn’t seem to fit, does it?

    Dugger, Merely An Enquiring Mind

  26. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    Pedro, you’re the master. How about addressing how the pictures are just fratboy stuff given the descriptions I posted. You were dishonest in framing it as frat-like so I asked for a response to what the pictures actually were. That’s the issue, you issue-dodging issue-dodger.
    ps. you have no evidence that my opinions are “uneducated” or that I’m an “idiot”, but you sir are beyond a shadow of a doubt a liar and have never fessed up to it.

  27. Dugger says:
    February 15, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    Dr Pedro raises a good point. If you don’t like how the military is doing it, how would you do it? In fact, I’m not aware of anybody on the left, he most vociferous of Bush critics, stating how they would fight the WOT. How would you handle ‘terorist’ detainees – being aware that some Gitmo releasees have already turned up fighting in action against us.

    Dugger , Easy to criticize, hard to govern

  28. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    “In fact, I m not aware of anybody on the left, he most vociferous of Bush critics, stating how they would fight the WOT. How would you handle  terorist detainees – being aware that some Gitmo releasees have already turned up fighting in action against us.”

    I’m sure you’re aware that even more of the detainees who have been released have been shown to have had no connection to the fighting or terrorism and were turned over by Northern Alliance fighters who got paid handsomely. But I guess it’s easy to make sense to yourself if you simply start from a premise which makes your soul-soothing conclusion inevitable. If you ignore the fact that this policy inevitably leads to innocent people being tortured then I’m sure you can sleep at night.

    The opponents’ solutions are to abide by the treaties and laws which congress has passed, to use legal, tried and true interrogation techniques, and to not start unwinnable wars against amorphous enemies which lead to frustration on the part of our soldiers. But even then, it’s not my place to come up with a solution, it’s Bush’s, and he’s not doing a very good job. Why do you think that unless we propose a solution we are barred from commenting? Is someone in the administration going to adopt it?

  29. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    Pedro, have you ever noticed how you sound just like every other unoriginal winger when you use words like “spouted”? Stop trying to sound smart and just be smart.

  30. tommo says:
    February 15, 2006 at 2:02 pm

    Bush, Chaney, and Rumsfeld must be sent to The Hague and tried as war criminals. Go here: http://www.amnestyusa.org/stoptorture/renditions/index.html?msource=wttat1ps&tr=y&auid=1413062

  31. midderpidge says:
    February 15, 2006 at 3:02 pm

    DrDoper does not support what was done, but he minimizes it by likening it to fratboy pranks. Disgusting.

    Dugger, how do you interrogate prisoners? I would imagine you would follow the long standing procedures established by the military, procedures established to prevent such abuse and mistreatment. Unfortunately for us all, Bush’s people loosened or undermined the safeguards and also chose to ignore the Geneva conventions against torture. How many lightsticks have to be shoved up a prisoner’s ass to make you feel safe, Dugger?

  32. BD says:
    February 15, 2006 at 4:02 pm

    mjb – drpedro knows he’s boring. He just doesn’t care.

    Much like the Abu Ghraib thing. He knows it was despicable. He just doesn’t care.

    For some reason, nobody chooses to answer the simplest question on this: why take pictures? Either the people running the prisons knew how bad it was and are sick bastards, or they simply didn’t think it was all that bad–which is stupid.

    This is the image of Americans that pedro is defending? That our troops at Abu Ghraib were either psychos or idiots?

  33. midderpidge says:
    February 15, 2006 at 4:02 pm

    What difference does the geneva convention make betweeen soldiers and non-soldiers that allows torture? I guess the Nazis could declare all people in certain neighborhoods to be enemy combatants based on their paranoia and do what they did under the Bush interpretation of the Geneva conventions.

  34. Dugger says:
    February 15, 2006 at 4:02 pm

    mjb,

    Now this “seeds of undue executive power” is hardly a problem at all. The ’seeds”? Seeds are little tiny things that haven’t grown at all. How do you know what these seeds will grow into. Shouldn’t Bush have to first do something wrong before he is hated?

    Mitterpidge

    Depends on the prisoner as to how you interrogate and the stakes. I have earned frame’s undying hatred (not actually a hard thing to do) because under certain rare, extreme conditons I would use torture. But I would not use torture routinely oer even rarely. I would use trickery and deceit. I would use, for hard cases intimidation. But I wouldn’t break the law. And your understanding of and application of genva convention rules is wrong re Bush. Need to understand diffrence between soldires and non-soldiers.

    Dugger

  35. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 4:02 pm

    Dugger, we’ve told you people repeatedly what Bush has done wrong. Seeds inevitably do grow if fed. You’re ok with feeding it and seeing where it goes, we’re not.

  36. Dugger says:
    February 15, 2006 at 5:02 pm

    mjb,

    “Dugger, we ve told you people repeatedly what Bush has done wrong. ”

    Well yes. I can honestly say you folks do believe Bush has done bunches and bunches o’ things wrong. Don’t know if there is one I cna recall that i agree with and is not motive-based.

    mitter,

    You concocted the question combining Geneva conventions and torture. Ts do not have Geneva convention rights. the comments onntorture were my own – not the Admins.

    Dugger

  37. duros62 says:
    February 15, 2006 at 5:02 pm

    What difference does the geneva convention make betweeen soldiers and non-soldiers that allows torture? I guess the Nazis could declare all people in certain neighborhoods to be enemy combatants based on their paranoia and do what they did under the Bush interpretation of the Geneva conventions.

    Doesn’t matter. Bush & Rumsfeld have negated the Geneva Conventions by declaring detainees “non-combatants,” therefore, Geneva Convention rules don’t apply. Doesn’t quite explain why American troops are putting beat-downs on “non-combatants” though does it? And by withdrawing the United States from the World Court in the Hague, US troops cannot be held liable for “war crimes” but must instead rely on the court of Military Justice (foxes guarding the hen-house, as it were).
    Therefore, if these pictures had not come to light, what does anyone think the chances are that any justice would have been had?

  38. drpedro says:
    February 15, 2006 at 5:02 pm

    mjb missed my point.

    Your descriptions were uneducated and there is no evidence that they were the things you described. I didn’t avoid the question at all.

    The picture of the guy looking in someones mouth you thought was a painful dental procedure? How do you come up with that?

    In the end, your descriptions were not worth commenting on beyond saying I had worse things done to me in my fraternity house…..
    and that being said, much of what was testified to was illegal.

    Now BD says ignorant things like “Much like the Abu Ghraib thing. He knows it was despicable. He just doesn t care.”

    This is patently untrue. I care, and am satisfied that justice has been served seeing as the perpetrator is currently changing big rocks into little rocks at Leavenworth.

    Don’t you lefties see the inherent problem with calling the entire administration into question over the action of a few loose cannon soldiers who were prosecuted and jailed by the same administration you claim is so callous?

    Irony, thats what it is….

  39. drpedro says:
    February 15, 2006 at 6:02 pm

    No mjb you jibbering idiot…the pool of blood is what happens when you are a terrorist and get into a fight the US Marines.

    On a more existential note, they all volunteered to take up arms against the best trained military in history.

    And as the saying goes….” you mess with the bull, you better be prepared to get the horns…”

    Oh and the stuff done to me in a fraternity was undoubtably criminal….

    Finally, and I hope this will eventually get through to you and your lefty associates….

    THE PERPETRATORS OF THESE ACTIONS ARE BEHIND BARS AFTER BEING PROSECUTED BY THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION….WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?

  40. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 6:02 pm

    Dugger, what is “motive-based”? Should people do things for no reason?

  41. mjb says:
    February 15, 2006 at 6:02 pm

    Well, you clearly did avoid the question because your post did not address anything I wrote, but in your world I’m supposed to read your mind apparently. But you’ve responded now so I won’t get bogged down in your obfuscation. Maybe it’s not a dental procedure, maybe he’s just hugging his good friend Mr. Prisoner. But as long as you’ve done worse in a frat that makes it ok I guess. Except for the fact that, wait for it, YOU VOLUNTEERED AND COULD GO FREE AT ANY TIME. That wasn’t evident to you when you wrote that? Also, given your dishonest history (and knowledge of what pledging a frat entails) I highly doubt that anything you did resulted in a pool of blood in the corner. Even if it did, you asked for it and could go at any time. If you’ve done those things to pledges, you are a criminal.

  42. Quaker in a Basement says:
    February 15, 2006 at 7:02 pm

    Don t you lefties see the inherent problem with calling the entire administration into question over the action of a few loose cannon soldiers who were prosecuted and jailed by the same administration you claim is so callous?

    Still sticking to the “few bad apples” theory, peed’?

  43. drpedro says:
    February 15, 2006 at 7:02 pm

    yes, you see Cracker, I live in a country of laws, where people are innocent until proven guilty….

    Where do you live?

  44. Rounds77 says:
    February 15, 2006 at 7:02 pm

    You’re right Pedro. The Congressional oversight that we see on a daily basis over this administration makes all the facts ever so clear. I’m sure all the ones responsible for these acts are in prison, as you yelled a couple of posts back. I’m sure there’s no connection between these pictures and the Bush administration refusing to make torture illegal.

  45. Quaker in a Basement says:
    February 15, 2006 at 7:02 pm

    Where do you live?

    Me? I live in a nation of personality cults where people are innocent until proven Democrats.

  46. drpedro says:
    February 15, 2006 at 9:02 pm

    Oh…so the guys doing the bad stuff at ghraib and now in leavenworth are democrats?

    I’m confused…

    But it is clear that you really don’t BELIEVE that people in this country are innocent until proven guilty….

  47. Big Gay Al says:
    February 15, 2006 at 10:02 pm

    In the end, your descriptions were not worth commenting on beyond saying I had worse things done to me in my fraternity house&

    It’s pretty obvious this person is not here to debate the points, but to engage in the very definition of troll activity: hijack a thread by saying the most outlandish things in order to provoke an emotional response.

    The acts depicted in these pictures are depraved and disgusting, and most Americans, good, decent Americans, would be appalled that some of our soldiers are doing this in our country’s name. Which is why they are appearing in Australian media; our media would prefer to keep the truth from us.

  48. Frank_D says:
    February 15, 2006 at 11:02 pm

    BD: For the life of me, I can t fathom why they felt the need to take photos… the need to take photos of that behavior.

    For the life of me, I can t fathom why they felt the need to publish the photos… the need to discuss the photos of that behavior.

    You’re right, BD, unfathomable…

  49. midderpidge says:
    February 15, 2006 at 11:02 pm

    DrDoper, do you even understand the idiocy and double standard of your position? A few bad apples, the rest unprosecuted and therefore not guilty, under your premise of innocent until proven guilty. What crime has been commited? The abuse of prisoners who have been arrested, tortured, abused, raped, detained for months, all without a legal system that presumes them innocent until proven guilty. Same for you Dugger, you sicko. They gots what they deserved AY? All because of a label slapped on them without trial, evidence, or defense. Many are just people who live in a certain area that was swept. No guarantees these were terrorists before arrest, a good chance they will take up arms after release though. We have created a major terrorist recruiting and training ground there. Nice work.

  50. Quaker in a Basement says:
    February 16, 2006 at 2:02 am

    I can t fathom why they felt the need to publish the photos&

    It’s called “news.” Look into it.

  51. Impor says:
    February 16, 2006 at 3:02 am

    Big Gay Al is right on. These guys are yanking chain. The only intelligent thing drpee ever said is right there in his last comment, “I m confused& “

  52. drpedro says:
    February 16, 2006 at 8:02 am

    why don’t you rocket scientists find EVIDENCE of others involved so they can be prosectued too?

    You flap your electronic gums about it all the time, yet no evidence beyond your word.

    A presumption of innocence is what is afforded an accused CRIMINAL in the UNITED STATES…..not a battlefield combatant or potential terrorist.

    While claiming to support our troops, you always manage to assume the the absolute worst in them…in this case, they are just rounding up innocent iraqis for their own sick fun.

    You think maybe most of those folks were in that prison for a reason? Or was it just a random event? Think carefully, it will be used against you next time you claim to “support” the troops…

  53. Dugger says:
    February 16, 2006 at 8:02 am

    mjb,

    Motive-based refers to criticizing an action or policy, not on the actual merits or demerits of that policy but rather the peceived motivations of the policy makers and/or their supporters.

    In other words, if I pulled a little old lady out of the way of a speeding bus, that would seem to be good. But, say, frame, or one of my other admirers here, might charge that I did it to save the bus corporation from a potential law suit and therefore its bad.

    Dugger

  54. mjb says:
    February 16, 2006 at 9:02 am

    “Think carefully, it will be used against you next time you claim to  support the troops& ”

    pedro, go f yourself. Don’t ever politicize the troops you whore. I’m not reading this thread any more because you disgust me.

  55. BD says:
    February 16, 2006 at 9:02 am

    Pedro seems to think that the military operates in much the same way as Enron allegedly did–that the superiors have no idea what’s going on with the underlings, and are therefore “shocked, SHOCKED!” when something goes awry.

    Either the military suffered an incredible breakdown in its self-awareness, or they knew what was happening and willfully turned a blind eye, or they knew what was happening and encouraged it. None of these options are palatable for the military wearing our flag.

  56. drpedro says:
    February 16, 2006 at 10:02 am

    pidgy, you really are a moron.

    Who went to jail? Two army solidiers….who was relieved of command because this occurred on her watch? An army general.

    You don’t get to pick who you think is responsible Pidgy…the soldiers of the US military are the best trained in the world…how do I know? I spent 10 years serving this country with them. I didn’t just talk about “supporting the troops” I hauled myself and my family to a two year, forward deployed billet overseas little Piddgy….

    You behave as if these soldiers were 4 year olds…hell, I demand personal accountability from my 4 year old.

    I grow weary of the incessant bleating of the leftist that it is someone elses responsibility. This is why the democrats lose elections so regularly, Americans believe in personal responsibility.

  57. midderpidge says:
    February 16, 2006 at 10:02 am

    Stop pretending you support the troops Peedro. You don’t. Claiming the troops arrest people in sweeps and then send them to detainment centers for processing does not denigrate the troops. It denigrates your precious Bush for failing to have properly trained troops with proper supervision watch over the prisoners with proper safeguards in place to assure proper handling AND treatment. BUUUUUZZZZZZZZZ!!!

    Here’s a big question for you defenders, why were independent contractors interrogating prisoners? Right.

  58. midderpidge says:
    February 16, 2006 at 11:02 am

    No Doper, you don’t get to pick who is responsible. The Bush Admin chose to go the torutre route. They removed the safeguards. They set up the climate. They outsourced it to foreign countries and independent contractors. They failed to send JAG officers. They failed to properly train the troops. They set up the climate for abuse. Our troops suffer for it. Hard to convince the peoples we better than Hussein when Bush allowed the rape and torture rooms to reopen.

    It sounds like Pedro was a transvestite camp follower.

  59. duros62 says:
    February 16, 2006 at 11:02 am

    Pedro said; “A presumption of innocence is what is afforded an accused CRIMINAL in the UNITED STATES& ..not a battlefield combatant or potential terrorist.”

    So how do you define and identify a “potential terrorist?” It seems that if a foreign nation is occupying your country, they don’t speak the language and they don’t know the customs, they show total disrespect for everything and everone they met (fostering resentement), and take people out of their homes in the middle of the night, doesn’t that make everyone in that country a “potential terrorist?”

    Hell, your mom is a potential terrorist. That doesn’t give anyone (the govmnt, the police, the military)the right to lock her up for years and beat on her without due process.

    Yeah, maybe it is just a few “bad apples” acting out their Grand Theft Auto fantasies. Doesn’t make it right, and Pedro, you can’t definitively say that everyone involved is locked up now, can you? You can’t definitively say that this behavior has stopped, can you?

  60. drpedro says:
    February 16, 2006 at 11:02 am

    How about this duros…

    someone shooting an AK at me. someone with a bunch of IEDs in his house, etc, etc.

    I didn’t say it made it right. I repeat, ad infinitum the people who did it are in JAIL, what more do you want?

    I can’t definitively say that Piddgy hasn’t had an anal probe by an alien either, so what does that prove?

    mjb, US Navy ( I was a surgeon not a combatant) 1993-2003

  61. mjb says:
    February 16, 2006 at 11:02 am

    Pedro, I couldn’t resist.
    “I spent 10 years serving this country with them.”
    Is this like O’Reilly saying he was in combat, when he was actually a reporter in grenada or the faulkland islands or something? I’ve learned to parse what you say carefully because you often are evasive. So answer this, did you serve in the armed forces, what branch, when and for how long?

  62. buma says:
    February 16, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    We’re safer if we torture them over there than if we have to torture them here at home.

  63. drpedro says:
    February 16, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    Here we agree Duros, so we have to remain vigilant. I suspect, based on my experience with Naval Aviation right after Tailhook, that the army monitors its prisons VERY carefully. But I will go one further, I guarantee something like it has happened since…just not on that scale. Some will get caught, some won’t, doesn’t mean we give up what we are trying to do there.

    And that is what makes our country great. We look to improve. The mistreatment is punished, and we do things to avoid it in the future.

  64. duros62 says:
    February 16, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    can t definitively say that Piddgy hasn t had an anal probe by an alien either, so what does that prove?

    Well, you got a point, there…
    I’m just saying that we (you) don’t know for certain that this sort of thing has stopped just because 2 soldiers and a General are in jail for it. They got caught. Others may not have been.

  65. Dkelsmith says:
    February 16, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    I can t fathom why they felt the need to publish the photos&

    It s called  news. Look into it.

    I am not understanding why it is necessary to REpublish photos, and to publish previously unseen photos either. Not because I want to hide anything….let me take that back. I want to hide the photos because whether or not it makes sense to some of us reared in Western Culture or not, some people go from moderate to fundamentalist in the span of time it takes to read a cartoon, or view a photo. For the sake of the service members that deal with the populace on a day-to-day basis, why don’t we avoid doing things we KNOW that the enemy uses as an excuse to step up agressions against us?

    Can we say with 100% surety that these photos have not contributed to the death of a member of the U.S. Armed Forces?

  66. Quaker in a Basement says:
    February 16, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    Can we say with 100% surety that these photos have not contributed to the death of a member of the U.S. Armed Forces?

    Is that the standard you wish to apply? Goodbye free press. Hello, Pravda.

  67. Frank_D says:
    February 16, 2006 at 1:02 pm

    Stuff it, Quaker, in the grand scheme of things, the photos are only important to the anti – war left, and the anti – american crowd in the Middle East.

    Dkel is underestimating for the sake of argument — I’d go with dozens.

  68. BD says:
    February 16, 2006 at 3:02 pm

    So the people who have attacked our troops in Iraq wouldn’t have attacked them if only we hadn’t published these photos? Respectfully, Dkel, I don’t think that Muslims are turning from moderate to fundamentalist over the cartoons or Abu Ghraib images alone. It’s a question of tolerance on the part of said Muslims–how much inner character does each one have before they turn to violent extremism?

    My parents are practicing Muslims, as is my younger brother. They have seen the Abu Ghraib images, have probably seen the cartoons, and have also kept an eye on the news while wedding parties have been blown up by errant planes with bad intel and the Ann Coulters of the world talk about killing or converting the ragheads. And you know what? They still have no desire to destroy the West in death and fire.

    Some people, from any background, simply lack self-control and human decency. That goes for terrorists and Abu Ghraib prisoner abusers alike.

  69. mjb says:
    February 16, 2006 at 3:02 pm

    I meant e.g., not i.e.

  70. mjb says:
    February 16, 2006 at 3:02 pm

    dkel, I see what you’re saying but I feel that we as a nation work from the premise that press freedom is essential, and any curtailing on that should be accompanied by some pretty hard evidence. i.e. the burden of proof is not on the journalists in this case.

  71. BD says:
    February 16, 2006 at 3:02 pm

    mjb – You meant “for example,” not “that is”?

    I think you were right the first time.

  72. mjb says:
    February 16, 2006 at 4:02 pm

    No, “that is” is what I meant, I think. I’m confused. Back to the pedro bashing.

  73. duros62 says:
    February 16, 2006 at 5:02 pm

    Some people, from any background, simply lack self-control and human decency. That goes for terrorists and Abu Ghraib prisoner abusers alike.
    I think that is the smartest thing I’ve heard anyone here say today.

  74. Quaker in a Basement says:
    February 16, 2006 at 5:02 pm

    Stuff it, Quaker, in the grand scheme of things, the photos are only important to the anti – war left, and the anti – american crowd in the Middle East.

    Stuff it? I decline.

    Smith suggests that news decisions should be made on the basis of whether any particular news item creates an increased risk of violence to a service member.

    By that standard, we’d be left with reports of industrial output and celebrations of the wisdom of the ruling party.

    Does that sound familiar? At all?

  75. duros62 says:
    February 16, 2006 at 5:02 pm

    By that standard, we d be left with reports of industrial output and celebrations of the wisdom of the ruling party.
    Does that sound familiar? At all?
    Umm, I’ll take communism for $100, Alex

  76. Frank_D says:
    February 16, 2006 at 7:02 pm

    I think that, barring any other good reason to publish those pictures, which I have yet to hear, I would say there is a difference between hindering the war effort, and inflaming our enemy.

    I’ll take “discretion” for $1000, Alex.

  77. buma says:
    February 16, 2006 at 11:02 pm

    Thanks for enforcing my point there, “doctor”.

  78. drpedro says:
    February 16, 2006 at 11:02 pm

    what torture did you see in those pictures?

    putting a hood over someones head?

    a dog barking at someone?

    someone bleeding for a as yet undetermined reason?

    someone lying on the ground without clothes?

    a picture of someone with a wound?

    a picture of someone with something written on their thigh?

    Amature hour stuff….

    Show the pictures of saddam throwing people off of buildings, holding them down and breaking their limbs, tying explosives to them and blowing them up, holding them down and chopping off limbs. Show pictures of the prison built for torturing children in front of their parents.

    THAT is real torture.

    You idiot apologists, deciding that “apparently” torture decisions came from “higher up”. Apparent to whom?

    It IS important that this is not as bad as saddam. Water boarding someone ISN’T as bad as chopping off their fingers….hell, we water board our OWN troops in training.

    So even when amature hour torture is performed…WE ARREST, TRY AND PUNISH THE PERPETRATORS.

    How can you idiot leftists keep ignoring this point?

  79. buma says:
    February 16, 2006 at 11:02 pm

    Dkel–
    Which is worse: The torture in our name, or photos of the torture in our name? Just asking.
    I hate the torture and hate seeing the proof. Torture is great for getting someone to admit to whatever he thinks you want to hear, but it’s not going to get you reliable information. It can help your own people be tortured in return.
    Apparently the decision to torture came from those higher up, possibly Rumsfeld himself. The blame goes to them, not to those who have exposed their criminal action.
    It is unfortunate that it takes photographic evidence to convince the naive Bushlickers that this is actually occurring on Our Leader’s watch. Why they continue to defend this Administration as being “not as bad as Saddam” is disgusting. Look how far Bush has lowered expectations of what this country is about.

  80. Quaker in a Basement says:
    February 16, 2006 at 11:02 pm

    Have we reached the point where our freedoms serve our policies and not the other way ’round?

  81. midderpidge says:
    February 17, 2006 at 2:02 am

    Wow, Pedro, take your head out of your ass. Almost every report, from the Red Cross to the Taguba report say abuse and torture has gone on. Sodomy, rape, waterboarding, beatings, exposure to elements, humiliation, holding hostages, etc etc etc. Almost every report says these things happened in more places than Abu Ghraib. Like Gitmo, Afghanistan, Thailand, other Iraq prisons and on.

    Responsibility, it starts with Bush allowing the Genenva conventions to be ignored. It travels through policy makers not properly preparing for the insurgency, not training the troops properly, outsourcing some interrogations, overcrowding in the prisons, “cordon and capture” maneuvers, removing long standing safeguards on interrogations, no effective system to process and release detainees, conflicting and confusing interrogation rules, brushing aside complaints of abuse made by the International Committee of the Red Cross, not investigating detainee complaints etc etc etc. It is in the Bush Admin.’s Doctrine of Torture.

    From the Schlesinger Report:
    “The events of October through December 2003 on the night shift of Tier 1 at Abu Ghraib prison were acts of brutality and purposeless sadism. We now know these abuses occurred at the hands of both military police and military intelligence personnel. The pictured abuses, unacceptable even in wartime, were not part of authorized interrogations nor were they even directed at intelligence targets. They represent deviant behavior and a failure of military leadership and discipline. However, we do know that some of the egregious abuses at Abu Ghraib which were not photographed did occur during interrogation sessions and that abuses during interrogation sessions occurred elsewhere.”

    While trying to lay the blame on the bad apples as Peedro does, it is forced to concede some abuses occured during interrogations, the abused were often not intelligence targets, that abuses occured elsewhere, and that both the “bad apples” and military intelligence personnel were involved. Get real.

  82. drpedro says:
    February 17, 2006 at 8:02 am

    Piddgy why don’t you actually read what I post before going off half-cocked?

    I contend that this has happened a number of times since abu g. My other contention is that when it is simply sadistic treatment, the people be punished.

    Please provide me with the written reference titled “Doctrine of Torture”, it looks like an interesting read.

  83. midderpidge says:
    February 17, 2006 at 11:02 am

    MMMM, Doper, do you really need anyone to tell you how stupid “we aren’t as bad as Hussein” is? Yay! The US is Hussein light. Are you really trying to tell us that those pictures could have benign interpretations to them, especially as you selectively choose your examples, and especially as MOST of the photos haven’t been released and that the worst of them and the video clips are still being withheld? Sick.

    Responsibility for the photos and abuse does not come from a written or expressed order from George W Bush to a group of deranged and bored night shift prison guards in Iraq, it isn’t George W Bush shoving a baton up a prisoner’s ass. It comes from the bad decisions he and his policy makers made to set the climate where such abuses occured and were probably inevitable. I outlined many, but by no means all of them above. Care to respond?

  84. duros62 says:
    February 17, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    Show the pictures of saddam throwing people off of buildings, holding them down and breaking their limbs, tying explosives to them and blowing them up, holding them down and chopping off limbs.

    You got links for that stuff? Saddam Hussein HIMSELF doing these atrocious things, or people lower down (as in orders come from higher up)?
    I don’t think anyone here, left or right, would say that Saddam is a great guy and he should come over for Thanksgiving, but Iraq under his authority is not the only place this shit goes on.

  85. duros62 says:
    February 17, 2006 at 12:02 pm

    & WE ARREST, TRY AND PUNISH THE PERPETRATORS.

    ..except when it is easier not to. Well, 2 out of 3 ain’t bad.
    Read this, please.
    http://www.slate.com/id/2136422/

  86. Bushwacked says:
    February 17, 2006 at 3:02 pm

    The name’s different but that’s it.

  87. drpedro says:
    February 17, 2006 at 3:02 pm

    sure piddgy-widgy…I will respond again…

    I never said “we aren’t as bad as hussein”…you invented that out of whole cloth.

    You are now using as your “facts”, unreleased photos/videos…in that case, I have an imaginary friend who tells me that all the torturers are democrats that contributed to the Kerry campaign….the facts are just being suppressed…

    The difference with hussein is that after all the atrocities, no one was arrested when saddam was in power….You pinko lefties miss that point every single time. The Bush administration has prosecuted people for the things that have been proven…

  88. buma says:
    February 17, 2006 at 6:02 pm

    Man, that Gonzalez would make a fine SC justice. In the Scalito mold, only more sinister.

  89. drpedro says:
    February 17, 2006 at 7:02 pm

    bushwacked, thanks for the reference.

    I note it is not called the “doctrine of torture”, and while the subject matter is decidely unpleasant, it seems reasonable.

    Ask someone who was in the military and an aviator about SERE school….you might be suprised.

  90. Quaker in a Basement says:
    February 17, 2006 at 7:02 pm

    Peedro, Thursday, 11:47 p.m.

    It IS important that this is not as bad as saddam. Water boarding someone ISN T as bad as chopping off their fingers& .hell, we water board our OWN troops in training.

    Peedro, Friday, 3:42 p.m.

    I never said  we aren t as bad as hussein & you invented that out of whole cloth.

  91. drpedro says:
    February 17, 2006 at 7:02 pm

    Sorry Cracker, I forget that you are english language challenged.

    The object of the first sentence “this” refers to specific actions.

    The more general object “we” suggests a line of argument equating a set of actions, or more generally a mindset, and then comparing the two.

    I HAVE to stop being so nuanced around leftists….

  92. midderpidge says:
    February 17, 2006 at 9:02 pm

    Wow, you are dumb. Are you saying the gov’t chose to withhold all the nice pictures that show the prisoners playing shuffleboard and eating steak? Dumbass. Testimony, testimony testimony. It’s all in the reports. Crap that would even make your stomach turn. All the photos with women on them, all the videos, etc etc etc.

    I don’t know Doper, everytime mention of US torture comes up, idiots like yourself keep screaming “What about Hussein” as if his bad conduct excuses ours.

    Doctrine: 1 A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
    2 A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent.
    3 A statement of official government policy, especially in foreign affairs and military strategy.

    Torture: 1a. Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion. b. An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain. 2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense. 3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
    TRANSITIVE VERB: Inflected forms: tor·tured, tor·tur·ing, tor·tures
    1. To subject (a person or an animal) to torture. 2. To bring great physical or mental pain upon (another).

  93. Bushwacked says:
    February 17, 2006 at 9:02 pm

    Survive, Evade, Resist, Escape (SERE) – a good comparison and it sounds a lot like some of the things used at AG, although there were some added perversions mostly by individuals. My biggest concern is that this will make it easier for even worse treatment of American soldiers, if anything worse than the Hanoi Hilton, can be imagined.

  94. Bushwacked says:
    February 17, 2006 at 9:02 pm

    Sorry the link didn’t work, I’ll try again
    http://www.farfromglory.com/hanoihilton.htm

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