One of the more intriguing battles on the Republican front to watch over the next two years will be the tug of war between the Republicans who hate Hispanics (and hide behind “immigration reform” to further their agenda), and the Business Cons, who like cheap labor and will do anything to keep it flowing. Right now Bush is leading the Business Cons, while Tom Tancredo currently holds the mantle of the Racist Cons. And by touting his “guest worker” idea, Bush made clear who’s still driving the bus. For now.
So, if I’m against illegall immigration because it lowers the wages for the least employable, least skilled american citizens, I’m a racist?
If I don’t want a legally certified group of 2nd class citizens in the US (guest workers) I’m a racist?
In the name of honesty the dems should change their name to the “reactionary party”.
This is a huge rift in the republican party, potentially as explosive as
Harriet Miers and possibly more damaging than Terry Schiavo.
Clearly something has to be done about illegals. The threat from
terrorists is probably much less than the economic drain on local
and state communities who are paying greater and greater
proportional amounts to keeps schools and emergency rooms
operating.
It’s the lifeboat analogy. As the capacity of the boat is finite and
the waters full of those wishing to board threaten to dump all
in the drink, difficult decisions must be made. I am grateful I do
not make the decision who must be denied access, but is it better
all are lost when the boat capsizes?
Cleo, when did you turn into a racist?
Why is this about “racist conservatives” and “business conservatives?” The two biggest names in this issue are the governors of Arizona and New Mexico, both Democrats, and one a potential 2008 presidential candidate, both of whom declared states of emergency in their states over the borders.
I guess it’s also a battle between demogogue racist Dems and demogogue pandering Dems. Looks like Napolitiano and Richardson, are in the demogogue racist Dems camp.
Frank- I guess Cleo is with the demogogue racist Dems on this one.
By the way, Oliver- which camp are you in? Seems like you try to Kerry this one (i.e. straddle the fence.) You’ll complain about immigration but paint any Republican solution as either racist or suck-ups to business.
And exactly what Democratic solution have you heard on this that you support? No- I really don’t give a hoot about which Republican soliution you don’t support. Let’s hear the Democratic, or for that matter ANY solution you do support. I’m listening.
I think there are many common sense things that need to be done about securing the border, but 90% of the Republican agitation for it is blatant dislike of hispanics.
Don’t hold your breathe marty.
Brand Democrat: “No Ideas, Just Opposition”
Immigration is just another wedge issue for Republicans to keep their racist base stirred up and agitated. They don’t want to solve anything. Seriously, they’re proposing a freakin wall across the border. Reactionaries love walls, they hate actual policy.
And I won t hold my breathe for any reference to all these peer reviewed journals you’ve been published in, Doctorb Pedro. “The B is for Bargain”
could be dr ‘c’, as in Credit Dentist.
90% of the Republican agitation for it is blatant dislike of hispanics.
That’s a goddam lie. Why in the world would Republicans hate Hispanics? What a stupendously stupid, unsupported, undocumented falsehood.
And that goes for you, too, frameone. I know, I’m an idiot.
Is it not the case that coming across the border illegally to find work is a crime in the way that stealing a loaf of bread when you’re hungry is crime? Is it so easy for you guys to comdemn people looking for the chance to feed their families?
And if it’s just the crime of crossing the border that you don’t like, why not support a guest worker program or other means to make legal what people do every day anyway? Wait, don’t tell me. That would be rewarding crime, wouldn’t it? Well no one is talking about rewarding that percentage of illegal immigrants who do “break into homes” or “kill cattle.” We’re talking about sound social and foreign policy that recognizes the complexity of the global marketplace.
You talk about illegal immigrants lowering the wages for other American workers and yet you oppose unions and you oppose the minimum wage. I don’t know, maybe Republican don’t hate hispanics in particular but they sure as hell hate poor people.
Brandon (or any winger), much of the rhetoric coming from “border enforcement” groups revolves around immigration threatening “our way of life”. A few questions: what do you take that to mean? and What do you think they mean? Also, do you think total assimilation should be the goal of any immigrant and/or immigration policy? If non-racist immigration reform people want to be taken seriously, don’t you think they should be going out of their way to distance themselves from radicals? A lot of people placed the onus on every arab or muslim to strenuously disavow actions by similar looking/believing people. If one has a serious solution to a sensitive problem, don’t you think they should be adamantly distancing themselves so as to not bring shame on the movement? Or could it be that the so-called serious immigration reform people are really just not that bothered by the racists?
“but 90% of the Republican agitation for it is blatant dislike of hispanics.”
For the 3,524th time, we don’t hate hispanics. We welcome anyone who wants to come here legally.
It’s the illegal immigrants who trespass on rancher’s property in southern Arizona, New Mexico, and Texas, break into homes, kill cattle, etc. that we don’t like.
Aw, c’mon frame. There are lots of medical schools around that give diplomas to semi-literate rubes.
Dr. Pedro: “I’m not a Doctor, I just play one on blogs.”
I personally think there needs to be some solution to the illegal immigration problem, but why does it always focus on Mexicans and other Central Americans? A large number of illegals from Europe and Asia are also in this country- smuggled through cargo ships, or come in on legal visas and overstay their welcome.
I find it interesting that the face of illegal immigration is always Hispanic.
“I know, I m an idiot.”
And that’s the first step to a better life, Frank.
“90% of the Republican agitation for it is blatant dislike of hispanics.”
Oliver used numbers! Big mistake. References to justify the hard data quoted, please.
The face of illegal immigration is Hispanic because most illegal immigration is Hispanic.
This report (.pdf) by the Pew Hispanic Center states that there were 10.3 Million “unauthorized” immigrants in the U.S. in 2004 of which 57% were from Mexico and 24% from the rest of Latin America – 81%!
The remaining 19% is 9% Asian, 6% European and Canadian and 4% African.
Our esteemed host wrote:
If there “are many common sense things that need to be done about securing the border,” it would have been far more persuasive had you actually mentioned some of them.
Illegal immigrants provide a valuable service for Americans: they provide labor for jobs that most Americans don’t want to do. They aren’t taking jobs away from Americans at all, since good Americans don’t want those jobs in the first place.
And having seen them in action, I can tell you that the Mexicans work harder, longer, with fewer complaints than our good citizens do. Heck, with people as hard working as Mexicans, how bad does the Mexican government have to be that it’s such an economic basket case?
Mr Willis is right: a lot of the hostility is ethnically based. The Hispanic immigrants speak a different language, and a significant portion of them do not seem interested in assimilation.
What is it about “illegal alien” is so hard to understand? They are here illegally, and the republicans believe that this law should be enforced.
It wouldn’t matter if they were all Swedes. This is not a racial or ethnic issue like it was when my family came over from europe. They were discriminated against, even though they were here legally.
I know you want to make this into a race-baiting predjudice issue, but it isn’t, and you have no evidence to the contrary.
I happen to believe that we should be cracking down on the employers of illegals as well. And if it turns out that we run out of work force (which will be an interesting argument for the republicans to use against welfare roles as well) then we will need to change our laws regarding how many immigrant we allow in won’t we….?
“but 90% of the Republican agitation for it is blatant dislike of hispanics.”
OLIVER WILLIS – “Just making shit up as I go along”
pedro, do you mean marty should expect ad hominem like this?: “I didn t ask your very poorly thought out chickensh-t opinion about what Republicans like or dislike.” – marty
At some point you guys have to retire that talking point because the hypocricy is nearing absurdity.
“I think there are many common sense things that need to be done about securing the border, but 90% of the Republican agitation for it is blatant dislike of hispanics”
I didn’t ask your very poorly thought out chickensh-t opinion about what Republicans like or dislike.
I was very specific.
Exactly what Democratic solution have you heard on this [issue of immigration] that you support?
If you can’t think of any Democratic solutions, feel free to name ANY of the common sense solution of which you speak that YOU would support.
We’re all listening.
P.S. If it is a Democratic solution, please reference the particular Democrat who is proposing it. AND PLEASE, do not give me a list of Republican ideas that you are against. Step out of the playbook for a change.
“Stand by for the personal invective and ad hominem attacks against you …”
That’s rich Pedro.
Damn Marty, you are really getting up in their grille! I love it!
Stand by for the personal invective and ad hominem attacks against you however…remember, a cornered animal is dangerous!
Is it so easy for you guys to comdemn people looking for the chance to feed their families?
Frameone, weren’t you frothing at the mouth a few days about violating the law, amd how you’d rather be blown up by terrorists than violate the Constitution?
Well, the Constitution doesn’t say anything about immigration, but the right of Congress to make immigration laws has never been declared unconstitutional, has it?
What are to do? Simply adopt a “guest worker” program because the almighty frameone thinks it’s a good idea, even though it’s not working out too well in Europe?
Open the borders altogether, with the inherent security risks?
Which plan makes me a non-racist?
What about helping Mexico solve its own problems, so jumping the border is not the only viable solution?
“Simply adopt a guest worker program because the almighty frameone thinks it s a good idea, even though it s not working out too well in Europe?”
What are you talking about? No, Frank, we should not adopt a guestworker progran just because I say so. The question is, how do we get greater control over the border without criminalizing poverty. Building a wall across the entire border is not an answer to the problem. A guest worker program or something like it would go a long way toward reducing the number of people who cross illegally. That in turn would reduce all kinds of other illegal activity related to border crossing such as human smuggling.
And what about helping Mexico improve its economy? We’ve been dumping billions of dollars into Iraq to fix a problem that didn’t exist before we got there.
frameone Says:
February 1st, 2006 at 12:11 pm
I know, I m an idiot.
And that s the first step to a better life, Frank.
I was just trying to save you some typing. Now you’ve wasted time, come up with your ususal meaningless answer, and made yourself look like a fool.
And Frank, because you seem incapable of understanding this, Bush had absolutely no reason to go around the FISA law. And if he thought he did, the only Constitutional solution was to go to Congress and get it changed. Crossing the border to find a job doesn’t even even come close to violating the fourth amendment for any reason in terms of relative offenses. That you would even think to argue it suggests how out of control the right wing rhetoric on this issue has become.
A guest worker program or something like it would go a long way toward reducing the number of people who cross illegally. That in turn would reduce all kinds of other illegal activity related to border crossing such as human smuggling.
Liberals always hold out tthe possibility that there is a solution to a problem that, unlike the one in effect, will meet their approval.
“The guest worker program will work,” they say, “or ’something like it’ will work.” Well, of course, something like it will work. Then there’s the absurd metaphor: “criminalizing poverty.” By forcing its own people to scoot over the border, and by facilitating that egress, it is Mexico that is criminalizing poverty, not the US.
That in turn would reduce all kinds of other illegal activity related to border crossing such as human smuggling.
You have absolutely no evidence that such a thing might occur — none. Are you kidding?
That’s like me saying, “A guest worker program is not the answer. An atomic bomb in the northern Mexican desert, or something like it, is what is needed.”
frameone: And what about helping Mexico improve its economy?
Frank (one post before) What about helping Mexico solve its own problems, so jumping the border is not the only viable solution?
I wasn’t arguing about relative criminality. I was talking about you. You can/t pick out your crime, and say, “Aha! I hate that one! That other one? They’re just hungry.” What if I say, “Thousands of people crossing the border, including possible terrorists? That’s terrible! Tapping a few international phone calls to stop terroriists from blowing things up and killing people? Big deal!” How do you answer me? With that “You’re a scaredy – cat” routine?
footnote: I don’t control right – wing rhetoric
We know you don’t control right wing rhetoric because it’s so patently obvious that you are controlled by it.
You gather incorrectly, frameone.
Unlike you, I believe our industrious hermanos to the south will figure out how to get here, if by your formulation, their ever increasing poverty drives them over the border. By that logic, Vincente Fox is driven by his inability to govern to send more illegal immigrants over their northern border. Is there a Law of Diminishing Returns on such activity?
Or will it work like osmosis, where at the point the illegals have all the money they need (or want — what the hell?), some will start to return home. Maybe they’ll get involved in the booming illegal movement business helping other, newer illegals make it over the border to the good ol’ US of A.
All those things you “happen to think” will happen are as likely to happen as are many other things that we wish and hope for: Some might, some might not. So?
As for your final “I think that”, I live in a city with a population of about 72000, with a hispanic population of about 20%. The edge of their neighborhood is a few hundred yards up the street from me. My children went to school with hispanic boys and girls. I sat in special ed meetings as a “Parent Rep” for hispanic parents. If there is any assimilation going on here, it is so subtle, as to be undetectable. And I’ve been in this neighborhood over eight years!
You’re dreaming, kid. Every immigrant who comes here isn’t the same. Hispanics come from an Indian tradition laminated between a Spanish language and culture, and Catholic religion. It won’t break down easy.
“How do you answer me?”
There is absolutely no reason for the President to violate FISA to keep this country safe. On top of that, he has absolutely no authority to do it. I think a president with no good reason to violate the Fourth Amendment and statutory law, shouldn’t.
I happen to think that jaywalkers shouldn’t be thrown in jail with murderers. Do you Frank? I happen to think that people driven by poverty to cross the border should not be treated like federal criminals.
I happen to think that if workers allowed to come to this country legally, they will be less likely to give money to coyotes and other human parasites who exploit desperate people, people made all the more desperate by US immigration law. Once they are here and working legally, they are less likely to be exploited by employees who can hold the threat of deportation over their heads while avoiding health and saftey and other labor laws.
I also think that if he have to spend less time patrolling the border for thousands of migrant workers, we can devote more resources to protecting against real threats such as the possibility of terrorists sneaking overthe border.
I think that if you allow workers to live here legally they will be inclined to assimilate themselves instead of cutting themselves off from the larger society and culture for fear of being arrested and deported.
You, I gather, just want to build a big wall.
Frank, WTF are you talking about? I lived in Los Angeles and grew up in Southern California. I think I know a little something about assimilated communities and mixed neighborhoods.
I’m also talking about social policy that can be undertaken in conjunction with foreign policy measures to coax, cajole or pressure reform in Mexico. What’s the brilliant solution on the Right to this complex cultural, social and economic problem? Build a wall and arrest everybodywho comes near it. Typical.
More typical still is your retreat to oversimplified racist idiocy to make your point: Hispanics are just different than every other immigrant group that has ever come to the United States.
Since so many of you nutjobs think we’re in danger of being invaded by Mexico or that al-Qaeda is going to plant a bombin your cheerios by way of El Paso, why don’t we preemptively attack Mexico and undertake and Iraq-style reconstruction down there. Yee-haw. Problem solved.
“It is about a cultural change that Americans don t want to see happen.”
It’s true that hispanic immigrants can be found working in towns and cities large and small all over this country. But does any one of you people out there who fear this cultural change live in Los Angeles or some other major city that has actually been on the leading edge of this phenomenon?The first brown person shows up an you start freaking out that you’re culture will be wiped out. Gimme a break. What are you afraid will happen? That’ll you’ll be forced to speak spanish and put mole sauce on your Fourth of July bar-b-cue? Do you even know what you’re afraid of?
I see the same reactionary, existential fear percolating through the waron terror: OH MY GOD THE MUSLIMS ARE GONNA TAKE OVER AND MAKE ME PRAY TO MECCA! Ya right.
Quite frankly, if we could wave Harry Potter’s magic wand and immediately seal up the borders and deport all of the illegal immigrants here now, we’d have to start up a guest worker program, because we need the labor!
I guess my last three posts will have everyone here assuming that I’m some sort of Moonbat leftist; I’m actually one of the more conservative Republicans you’ll ever meet. But that also means that I tell the truth, especially to myself.
The first part of solving any problem is being honest with yourself about what the problem is.
We also ought to realize the consequences of our actions: we have illegal immigration because we want illegal immigration.
I’m sure that statement is going to have a lot of people’s backs up, but consider our actions. We vote once every couple of years for politicians who promise to Do Something about illegal immigration, but we vote every single day for illegal immigration by purchasing the goods and services produced by illegal immigrants.
Most of the produce in our supermarkets has illegal immigrant labor somewhere in tye production chain. In most areas of the country, residential construction is significantly done with immigrant labor. The trucking industry is seeing more and more immigrants. How can anyone expect the politician you vote for once every couple of years to undo the economic votes we make every day by patronizing immigrant labor?
Thank you frame. At least you are trying- even if you changed the subject there for a minute or two.
So am I getting this right that you support the President’s idea of a guest worker program? (Let’s forget the knee jerk, oppose the President on everything reflex you may have by how I stated the question for one second.)
Do you see any other proposals that make sense to you? Since Oliver is afraid of the question, I’ll engage you instead.
Let me repeat my question to save you some scrolling.
Exactly what Democratic solution have you heard on this [issue of immigration] that you support?
If you can t think of any Democratic solutions, feel free to name ANY of the common sense solution of which you speak that YOU would support.
Frameone suggested:
Uhhh, we have poured money into the Mexico, and it’s been a waste.
Mexico has oil, it has natural resources, and it has the hardest working people in the world (or they sure are when they get here!), and the place is still a dump. That has to be due to a government and a culture that ruins the place.
John Judis, writing in The New Republic, had a major article on immigration, Border Wars, in which he concluded, rightfully, that the political problems over illegal immigration are cultural identity: Americans don’t like seeing the changes happening to our country wrought by a large wave of immigrants who seem reluctant to assimilate.
Our esteemed host might see that as evidence of racism, but I disagree. It is about a cultural change that Americans don’t want to see happen.
The Hispanic immigrants have, in my not so humble opinion, one huge difference between themselves and the earlier waves of immigrants who came to our shores. The immigrants from Ireland and Poland and England and Vietnam had to come from overseas, often at the last extremity, and harbored no (realistic) hope or desire of ever returning to the Old Country. The mostly Hispanic illegal immigrants of today frequently do expect to return, sometimes temporarily, sometimes permanently, to their home countries. They can drive back or walk back, something the Irish sure couldn’t ever do. And thus their separation from their original countries isn’t really completed, and they seem to have less of a desire to complete such a separation.
“Exactly what Democratic solution have you heard on this [issue of immigration] that you support?”
The Dems have a plan but a shitty website where it isn’t easy to find their policy statements. As far as I can tell I think a combination of Bush’s plan and the Dems plan would work best, that is a guest worker program that opens the opportunity for a green card or citizenship at the end of a certain period. I think it’s a mistake, as in Bush’s plan, to offer guestworker status to someone without giving them a stake in the system through a green card or citizenship on down the road.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/05/02/democrats_urge_immigration_changes/
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/05/02/democrats_urge_immigration_changes/
Exactly what Democratic solution have you heard on this [issue of immigration] that you support?
The Dems have a plan but a shitty website where it isn t easy to find their policy statements. As far as I can tell I think a combination of Bush s plan and the Dems plan would work best, that is a guest worker program that opens the opportunity for a green card or citizenship at the end of a certain period. I think it s a mistake, as in Bush s plan, to offer guestworker status to someone without giving them a stake in the system through a green card or citizenship on down the road.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2004/05/02/democrats_urge_immigration_changes/
You wanna who should be afraid about cultural change? Mexican immigrants. Anyone here actually know what Cinco de Mayo is, aside from a day for everyone to get loaded on Coronas? Please. I can see having a reasonable disagreement about jobs on this issue but anyone who’s afraid that immigration will destroy our way of life is a reactionary, racist idiot.
frameone, I actually attempted a rational response to your stupid posts, but then I thought, “Why? He’s just another dimwitted leftie who thinks he’s smarter than everybody else, when he’s not indicating that he has any more knowledge about this issue than any Sunday morning goony talking head.
Call everyone who disagrees with you a racist, and say that ideas they did not agree to are incorrect. Get your lips off Oliver’s butt cheek, and get a real idea.
Your running out of steam with that “You’re an idiot!” “You’re an idiot!” routine. It’s getting real, real, old.
BTW, bruja, How many Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe processions have marched past your house? ¡Baboso!
“How many Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe processions have marched past your house?”
How did you enjoy it from the cellar? It’s the end times Frank. It’s the end times.
“He s just another dimwitted leftie who thinks he s smarter than everybody else…”
Of what, Frank, would you have attempted to convince me? Am I supposed to be concerned for my culture or my way of life because people come to this country looking for work? Am I supposed to look at every bodega,botanica or store front church in my city as evidence that American values are under attack? In other words, do you think I should live in fear like you?
frameone,you are good at one thing: opening your mouth to change feet. What do you think I’m afraid of? Is it important for you to think I’m afraid?
I don’t think American values are under attack at all. What do you imagine I am, some Neanderthal – browed numbskull in a “wife – beater” watching Wheel of Fortune every night? What a shallow tool you are. You know what bothers me about assimilation, clown? I wonder why I’m assimilating like I’ve moved into a foreign country, when I graduated from the Elementary School across the street 45 years ago. I have nothing to fear, stupid.
Once again you have raised a point I was not trying to make, made what you consider to be a sound argument against it, and derived (I presume) some pleasure from it.
Where did I mention anything about “being concerned for (your) culture or (your) way of life because people come to this country looking for work?”
If there is one I’m sure of frame, it’s that you couldn’t give two shits about your country, your culture, or your way of life.
But I’m asking you where Imentioned being afraid. You only have to go back about six or seven posts. If it’s there, you’ll find it.
But I know what you’ll do: You’ll find some statement that (for you) fills the bill, and then hit me with a liberal “either / or”: Either you were saying that snails hve jet engines or you were saying you were afraid — which is it?
I’m telling you, frame, your game is old. Get a clue, or revamp your act.
BTW, I live on the third floor in an apartment building, not in a comfy little house like you La La Land sissies.
Frame said:
Perhaps you see that as a way to simply dismiss people’s concerns, but you need to face facts: those concerns do exist, and “a reactionary, racist idiot” has just as much of a vote as you do.
Further, if you look at our immigration laws, and the quotae that are legally allowed, you will see that they have always been based on trying to maintain some sort of ethnic and cultural balance.
So what exactly is your problem with the Hisapanics down the street Frank?
And Dana, why on earth should we should we lay down when politicians blatantly pander to reactionary, racist idiots? What rational basis is there to believe that illegal immigratation represents an existential threat to this country’s way of life?
So what exactly is your problem with the Hisapanics down the street Frank?
The “problem” is not with Hispanics… It’s with you. While the language / communication peoblem can be frustrating, it’s not apocalyptic, as you so humorlessly pointed out. Perhaps it’s the impression one gets that it is getting worse instead of better — “For English, dial ‘1′” “Para Espanol, marca numero ‘dos’”
I hear it in my therapy classes: “For example, if your client(s) is Spanish…”
It’s as if we as a people are not really supposed to expect assimilation, but rather a “living side – by – side” that is totally incompatible with the American Way.
As usual, you on the Left will say, “Then the American Way must change.” And the average American (like the average human, conventionally conservative) will say, “Oh yeah? Sez you!” And then the ‘fun’ begins.
Frame, politicians in a democracy are supposed to represent the will of the people. Whether you like it or not, that’s just the way it is.
Nor does it require some basis that you would find rational for other people to believe that illegal immigration presents a threat to our American culture. You can argue about people’s beliefs and perceptions not being rational all that you want, but unless you actually persuade them to change their minds, they will hold whatever beliefs they wish. In a representative republic, those beliefs carry weight, whether you believe they should or not.
As I see it, the biggest single problem is language. If the immigrants were making a major effort to learn English and assimilate quickly, much of the perception of problems would disappear.
Well I’m glad we’ve settled this. Frank thinks that having to wait a few extra second on an automated voicemail system represents a threat to the American Way. Meanwhile, Dana is willing to support nutjob, neofascist, racist policies as long as a majority of the general populace supports them. Great guys. Democracy hasn’t shined this bright since Germany 1933.
“It s as if we as a people are not really supposed to expect assimilation, but rather a living side – by – side that is totally incompatible with the American Way.”
Wow, living side by side with Latinos and Spanish speakers is incompatible with the American way.
Because the American way is the official language is English- oops, it’s not now is it?
But you’re not racist or xenophobic at all, right? In those therapy sessions, are you sure you’re the therapist?
frameone, as usual, can always be counted on to argue ab absurdo. How many examples did you expect? 12? 20? 144?
fastcheck, laws don’t determine how I feel. I’m not a liberal. If you think they do, maybe you’ll be my patient one day — but I’ll charge you double because of the extra effort.
Incidentally, for the record, neither racism nor xenophobia is a pathology.
frameone, I don’t know what kind of movie critic you are, but a political philosopher you ain’t.
You keep playing this “fear card”, like I don’t know that you have 11 aces. I counted them already, and you passed 4 a long time ago. Give it up.
conservatives direct their fear and angst on anyone who looks different or sounds different.
And liberals direct their fear and angst on anyone who acts differently or thinks differently from them.
I think you re posts are ample evidence of this.
Frank, look at the contradictions at work in your own post:
‘The problem is not with Hispanics& ‘ but then you describe a scenario in which you posititon Hispanics as the source of the problem:
“Perhaps it s the impression one gets that it is getting worse instead of better For English, dial 12 Para Espanol, marca numero dos I hear it in my therapy classes: For example, if your client(s) is Spanish& It s as if we as a people are not really supposed to expect assimilation, but rather a living side – by – side that is totally incompatible with the American Way.”
Further up the post you argue that this “refusal” to assimilate has nothing to do with the way Hispanics are treated by this culture or the fact that whole Hispanic communities are looked at as interlopers or criminals, no matter how many generations have been born and died here as Americans. No, their “refusal” to assimilate is entirely the result of who Hispanics are as a race and a people:
“Every immigrant who comes here isn t the same. Hispanics come from an Indian tradition laminated between a Spanish language and culture, and Catholic religion. It won t break down easy.”
You even feel the need to point out that Hispanics are radically different from those good immigrants — the Irish, the Germans, the Italians — who assimilated so easily and readily into American culture without any problem at all. Yup, it’s just the Hispanics who are causing all the trouble because they’re different.
Just tell us, what are you afraid all this Hispanic immigration will lead to?
Un, Frank, you forget the fact that I’m not afraid of you or conservatives.
“How many examples did you expect?”
How about one that didn’t expose your deep-seeded abject fear of people different from you?
Let’s face it Frank, the American Way is constantly changing. Indeed, one could argue that the American Way IS change. Change driven by capitalist markets that constantly push technology and culture forward. Immigration plays it’s part too but it’s only one piece of a much larger process. And yet it’s always immigration that so many conservatives choose to separate out to lay all the blame of when ever the pace of change freaks them out too much.
I’ve always been fascinated by how much anxiety the free market actually produces in supposed free market cheerleaders. I think bashing immigrants is born of repression and subsitution. Unable to face the facts that capitalism itself is a threat to tradition, conservatives direct their fear and angst on anyone who looks different or sounds different. I think you’re posts are ample evidence of this.
Frame wrote:
I find it interesting that both frame and our esteemed host thought that this was about conservatives, when the highest profile politicians who have raised this issue are Governor Bill Richardson (D-NM), Governor Jean (?) Nepolitano (D-AZ) and Senatrix Hillary Clinton (D-NY). It seems that the highest profile Republican who had addressed this issue is President George Bush, and his proposals are to stabilize the situation with guest worker administration, rather than the “they’re all illegal, deport ‘em all” reaction.
Tell it to Tancredo, Dana. AndI already mentioned above I don’t like the Dem plan. Like I said, pandering is pandering.
Un, Frank, you forget the fact that I m not afraid of you or conservatives.
And you forget that, despite the fact that I denied being afraid of Hispanics, and my numerous denials of being afraid of terroristsm you insisted it was a lie, and that I was afraid.
So your statement should mean bupkus to me. But, unlike you, I don’t pretend to know what is really on your mind. If you say it’s true, I must at least admit that you believe it to be true.
But my belief is that liberals seek an ordered, rational world, and fear a disordered, irrational world. A world of freedom, such as conservatives envision, would naturally frighten you.
I think that Oliver Willis is finally beginning to get it. (Subtitle- the Democrat’s Plan or Lack Thereof.)
Yeah, yeah, I know. Fisking Cousin Oliver is not exactly a big challenge, but everytime I go over there I find myself writing so much in rebuttal to his commenters and to his…. (try not to be insulting…be nice…think of something that won’t belit…
“A world of freedom, such as conservatives envision, would naturally frighten you.”
A world in which Pat Robertson can tell women what to do with their bodies; where the President can eavesdrop on Americans without a warrant; in which science that conflicts with policy is suppressed; in which individuals have less rights than corporations; in which the free market determines who gets health care and who doesn’t, who eats and who doesn’t, who is entitled to an education and who isn’t; in which workplace safety laws don’t exist …
All this and more because you’re afraid of brown people and terrorists. Can’t wait.
Never mind. I give up. You’re an an incorrigible asshole.
I just want to help …