I think for most people the mesage would be that under this program a dangerous felon could be out in your neighborhood and do you harm. And that harm would feel just as bad regardless of the ethnicity of the felon.

Then, once again, you’re ignoring the difference between debating and demagoguing an issue.

I said much earlier that Gore intiated, Atwater expanded. Now if you define the Willie Horton issue as only one in terms of race , then you and your amigos are at least partially correct in that Atwater used a picture which was a true picture. If the issue was more than race, but the irresponsible release of murderous felons, then I was right – Gore started it. My problem or your problem is that I don’t now and never have accepted the racial-only construct of the Horton issue. I think for most people the mesage would be that under this program a dangerous felon could be out in your neighborhood and do you harm. And that harm would feel just as bad regardless of the ethnicity of the felon.

Dugger

What “undercurrent of reprehensible bigotry” are you talking about? Regardless of whether racist skinhead idiots are drawn to it, it doesn’t make the basic idea of the Minuteman Project racist, which is calling attention to the lax border security and the federal government’s failure to uphold existing immigration law. This is no more racist than the pro-Palestinian groups drawn to Antiwar marches makes the march participants supporters of anti-semitism and genocide.

And by the way, it’s anti-illegal immigration. I am a full supporter of legal immigration. And personally, I’m not appalled at all by “the darkening of this country” as you put it. As long as the immigration is legal, I’m all for it, regardless of the skin tone.

Regarding your claim that it’s Globalization, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc that have “completely destroyed the economies in their home countries”, where is your data to back up this assertion? I would expect that the corruption and failed economic policies that were in place long before Globalization and NAFTA have contributed far more to poverty throughout Latin America. By the way, globalization has been going on since the 90’s, while NAFTA was pushed through in 1995 on the Democrats’ watch. Where is your scorn for the Left?

Regarding your diatribe about corporations, when I become one I’ll get back to you and you can criticize me to your heart’s content.

Increased illegal immigration and the destruction of the manufacturing base in the United States causing the loss of thousands of good-paying manufacturing jobs to disappear into the black hole of capitalist greed is what the crypto-fascist policies of the GOP engender.

What does increased illegal immigration (which you appear to agree is a BAD thing) have to do with the transition from manufacturing to service industries that has been ongoing in this country for the last decade? Do you think that people coming illegally to the US to get jobs that have already been offloaded to their home countries? And can you elaborate on what the “crypto-fascist policies of the GOP” are? I apparently didn’t get that particular memo from the VRWC.

When you can learn to live and provide for your family on less than $5 bucks a day then you can lecture me on my reading skills and political philosophy. Until then, I shall gleefully point out the insanity and bias in your positions.

From the high moral tone taken here, I can only assume that you personally have mastered the “provide for your family on less than $5 bucks a day” skill that you demand others learn before daring to criticize YOU. But how do you afford internet access and still feed your family?

Please enlighten us as to what steps you personally have taken to prevent the exploitation of third world workers that you claim all of us conservatives are guilty of perpetrating? What is your seeming absolute moral authority based on? Until then, I shall gleefully point out the insanity and hypocrisy in your postings.

I look forward to the day when you lay in your own excrement in a nursing home

Well that’s awfully charitable of you! At least you didn’t say “dead in a ditch somewhere”. So tell me, while I’m lying there in my own feces, futilely pressing the nurse ‘call’ button, where will you be? Presiding over the utopia that will be realized just as soon as we can brush all those evil red-staters out of the way?

The fact remains that you have consistently minimized throughout your posts the undercurrent of reprehensible bigotry of the minuteman project and other anti-immigration groups that for some “unknown” reason believe that they have a moral duty to stop the illegal immigration of poor colored folks into their “white” nation. It is truly funny that those of you so appalled by the darkening of this country completely ignore the reason increasing numbers of Latin Americans are immigrating illegally in the first place: Globalization, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. which has completely destroyed the economies in their home countries.

From Global Exchange: “According to the National Labor Committee, a worker in El Salvador earns about 24 cents for each NBA jersey she makes. These same jerseys then sell in the U.S. for $140 each. The
60 cents an hour the Salvadoran NBA seamstresses earn covers only about a third of the cost of living, and even the Salvadoran government says this wage leaves a worker in  abject poverty. In poorer countries such as the Dominican Republic and Nicaragua, the wages are even lower.”

“By exploiting workers in sweatshops, corporations drive down working conditions for all workers and prevent countries from pursuing a real model of development. When corporations pressure countries to keep wages low, ignore domestic labor laws, violate international environmental codes, bust unions, and drive down working conditions globally, they are no longer taking advantage of poor working conditions  they are creating and perpetuating them.”

Increased illegal immigration and the destruction of the manufacturing base in the United States causing the loss of thousands of good-paying manufacturing jobs to disappear into the black hole of capitalist greed is what the crypto-fascist policies of the GOP engender.

Blaming the victims of sweatshop labor and corporate greed for their plight solves nothing and makes, you all look like the simplistic xenophobes that you all are proud of being. When you can learn to live and provide for your family on less than $5 bucks a day then you can lecture me on my reading skills and political philosophy. Until then, I shall gleefully point out the insanity and bias in your positions.

As an afterthought, I think the real animus I detect is a realization that one day you and your adherents will be vastly outnumbered and consigned to the irrelevance you so richly deserve. I look forward to the day when you lay in your own excrement in a nursing home and realize that Guadalupe, the woman who is underpaid to look after you is a human being deserving of your respect.

It is interesting that you failed to disavow any racial animus

You don’t read very well. I’ll redirect you to my reply to your original comment in which I wrote

racists with despicable views

They have reading programs to help you increase your comprehension skills.

As far as your other incorrect accusations about me, stick them up your ass.

So by your reasoning, if we look at the usual participants in an anti-war rally or parade we can come to the logical conclusion that anybody against the Iraq war (i.e. anti-war) “owns” anti-semitism and genocide (courtesy of the pro-Palestinian “push the Israelis into the Sea” crowd) as well as communism and anarchy (courtesy of those fine representatives).

It is interesting that you failed to disavow any racial animus but to minimize and ignore it, which in my mind is suspect.

So describing racist participants in the Minuteman Project as, well, “racist”, and pointing out that racist support for a cause does not make the cause racist is minimizing and ignoring the racism.

it also is emblematic of a myopic and ignorant view with regard to the economic devastation imposed by globalization for the exclusive benefit of First world nations like the United States.

So for those of us you label “myopic and ignorant”, maybe you can enlighten us as to how a statement like “economic devastation imposed by globalization for the exclusive benefit of First world nations like the United States” applies in any way to the topic under discussion (i.e. the Minuteman Project, illegal immigration, etc.).

I remind you again that all of you conservatives own the racism inherent in the minuteman movement. It is interesting that you failed to disavow any racial animus but to minimize and ignore it, which in my mind is suspect. It is a very revealing omission that is characteristic of an extremist viewpoint that is untenable to me and inimical to American values regarding equality. Moreover, it also is emblematic of a myopic and ignorant view with regard to the economic devastation imposed by globalization for the exclusive benefit of First world nations like the United States.

During a debate, Gore did, in fact, bring up the Massachusetts prison furlough program. He pointed out that escapees from the furlough program (Willie Horton was not one of these) had committed murders. Gore questioned the wisdom of the program. He didn’t mention Mr. Horton or any other criminal by name. Sounds like a pretty good issue for a debate, no?

The Bush campaign, on the other hand, ran a famous television ad that included a photograph of Mr. Horton. Mr. Bush himself invoked Mr. Horton’s name as a shorthand for “weak-kneed mamby pamby liberal softness on crime (by big ugly black men against the delicate flower of anglo-saxon womanhood, wink, wink)”.

So, in that sense, it’s true that Mr. Gore was the first to “bring up Willie Horton.”

How much of his show does Ebert spend pushing partisan politics? I don’t watch it but I would imagine the answer is almost none. How much of his show does Limbaugh spend pushing the same: close to all of it. See the diff?

Listen to much AM radio at night? hear Rush?

Yes, frequently I do hear Rush in reruns. When it isn’t Rush it’s Michael Savage or Glenn Beck or Laura Ingraham or Gordon Liddy or one of the dozens of other Rush clones preaching the same bilious gospel.

And lets be clear, you are more concerned about what Rush did a decade ago than what Ebert did last year re the Bush girls.

No, chucklehead, I am more concerned about what Rush did and has continued to do day in and day out for much longer than a decade and continues to do up to this very day. Yes, I am more concerned with that than I am with something Roger Ebert said on one occasion. I know, I know, I’m such a hairsplitter!

But, if it makes you feel any better, I’ll say that Roger Ebert shouldn’t say nasty things about the Bush girls. If he did do that, I think he should apologize. What are my chances of getting you to say the same for the crap Rush spews day in day out, year after year after year.

I can sort it out. I don t expect an apology from Ebert. You shouldn t from Rush.

I never said I expeted an apology from Rush, and I don’t expect one from you. What I stand by is that unless you apologize, and util you cease and desist, complaints about how “unciivily” you and your allies are being treated are the height of hypocrisy.

See the diff? The upshot is that I fully expect you to go on being both uncivil and hypocritcal.

Ok. I’m only repeating what WaPo, Slate (Bill Bradley), and others on the left have said: that Al Gore started the whole thing against Dukakis. I’ve seen reports both ways as to how Gore actually used the issue versus Atwater. I am satisfied that Atwater used a picture and Gore did not. I am also satisfied that Atwater was factual. I don’t know whether Gore ever mentioned Horton by specific name or just referred to paroled convict(s) (Why would that be important?) As an issue and as an incident, Gore initiated and Atwater expanded (as I said).

mjb, Forget Media Matters – lest I refer you to News Max or something similar.

Dugger

You may well find the GOP fantasy version of the Gore-Dukakis debates repeated by the WaPo or ABC. I’m pretty sure it’s been told and retold by reporters in the New York Times, the Washington Times, and endlessly on cable.

I encourage you to visit the Daily Howler and search for “Gore and Horton.” You’ll get a very long list of hits (Here’s just one example, if you don’t want to go to the trouble.) The mainstream press repeated many things about Mr. Gore that were simply false.

Media Matters is a left wing partisan site – hardly a reliable source for dog squeeze, much less partisan political issues. My sources for Gore’s use of the Horton issue were left wing ABC and left wing WaPo. Gore clearly used the issue against the tanker. Atwater, true, exploited it further. You have your left wing sites fight it out as to who got it right.

Wilbur,

Sure there’s a diffrence, Ebert is a rabid p[artisan who pretends he’s not apartisan and has a weekly national televison show. Rush acknolwedges he is a partisasn and is on AM radio. Listen to much AM radio at night? hear Rush?
I don’t mind your simple diffrences when in fact they are correct. I will concede there was a difference bewtwen Gore’s use of the issue and Atwaters (I think Atwater has, paradoxically, apologized for it).

And lets be clear, you are more concerned about what Rush did a decade ago than what Ebert did last year re the Bush girls. I see. Huge diffrence.
And I don’t care whether its pre-blogger or post blogger – you introduced that into the converstaion. I say both sdies have loudmouthed extremists and both side have polemiciists. I can sort it out. I don’t expect an apology from Ebert. You shouldn’t from Rush.

Dugger

In fact, as Media Matters for America has documented, although Gore did ask Dukakis about “weekend passes for convicted criminals” during a 1988 Democratic primary debate, “Gore never mentioned that Horton was black; indeed, he never mentioned Horton by name,” as Slate.com “Chatterbox” columnist Timothy Noah noted on November 1, 1999. Further, as Daily Howler editor Bob Somerby has documented, Gore never mentioned Horton’s crime but specifically mentioned two other criminals who committed murder after escaping from their prison furlough.

It was the Bush-Quayle ‘88 campaign that first used the Horton case against Dukakis. After winning the Republican presidential nomination, George H.W. Bush frequently invoked Horton on the campaign trail to portray then-Massachusetts Governor Dukakis as soft on crime. As Newsweek reported in October 1988, Lee Atwater, Bush’s campaign manager said, “By the time this election is over, Willie Horton will be a household name.” The Americans for Bush arm of the National Security Political Action Committee used Horton in an anti-Dukakis attack ad that drew particular attention to Horton’s race.

And yes, I do think there is a clear distinction -in terms of civility if nothing else – between ascribing ill effects to the Governor’s penal policies (as Gore Did), and suggesting that a vote for Dukakis will put a crazy black man in everyone’s living room (as Atwater did).

I’m sorry you can’t understand these simple distinctions.

Does it occur to you that in justifying your call for an apology you have focused on issue that are also pre-blogger

Um yes, that was the whole point: that you guys started it (and you’ve never quit). So don’t go whining if you’re getting some of it back now.

Re this argument, you are waste deep in the Big Muddy, methinks.

If by “Big Muddy” you’re referring to your own brain, I’m afraid you’re right.

I read the full SPLC article you linked. Is this supposed to be a news report or a (slanted) opinion piece? Who was the author? I saw a lot of racist people quoted and racist actions described first hand. Other than this “report”, has there been any other corroboration of these statements or events in the media or by any other organization?

Further down in the story, you have this piece:

Vigilante militias have been capturing, pistol-whipping and very possibly shooting Latin American immigrants in Cochise County since the late ’90s, when shifts in U.S. border control policies transformed the high desert region into the primary point of entry for Mexico’s two most valuable black market exports, drugs and people.

“very possibly” shooting immigrants? Is the capturing and pistol-whipping documented?

But the Minuteman Project raised the stakes with a highly publicized national recruiting drive followed by a campaign of deceitful media manipulation. These maneuvers generated massive and mostly positive nationwide coverage of what in actuality was little more than a relatively small and ineffectual gathering of bigots and weekend warriors, led by a pair of dueling egos. While they played Army in the desert for a few weeks, this slapdash band was transformed by the hype into the elite vanguard of America’s anti-immigration movement.

“campaign of deceitful media manipulation”? “small and ineffectual gathering of bigots and weekend warriors”? “slapdash band”?

Nope, no unsubstantiated claims or bias here. Just your average fair and balanced news coverage. Contrast it with reports here or even here.

Did you also read the accompanying interview with Ray Ybarra, one of the ACLU “watchers” at the site? Maybe you missed this part:

IR: Have you seen or heard of any Minuteman volunteers pointing guns or committing acts of violence?

YBARRA: No, we haven’t. Of course, it’s impossible to know how they’d be acting if they didn’t know we’re watching. But I think that more than anything, the Minuteman Project has turned out to be a staged media event. So they’re on their best behavior.

No, we didn’t see anything bad happen, but the only reason they didn’t commit evil acts is because we were here.

And I think this part sums up Mr. Ybarra’s world views (and “very possibly” those of the SPLC as well):

IR: How will history judge the Minuteman Project?

They will think, “How could this have been allowed, let alone condoned? How could it have been acceptable for so many people to needlessly suffer, just in order to find work, walking four or five days through a harsh desert environment? How could it have been acceptable for hundreds of these people to die every year of thirst, for them to die slowly, like animals that can’t fend for themselves anymore? How could it have been acceptable for armed vigilantes to stand in their way, taking the law into their own hands, and illegally imprisoning them?”

Apparently, wanting to stop illegal immigration is akin to slavery and segregation. I guess the real crime is that these poor immigrants have to endure dangerous hardships just to illegally enter this country and find work. Should we arrange air-conditioned buses to take them directly to the Home Depot day labor centers so they can start working with a minimum of discomfort?

Pay no attention to the endemic corruption, failed economic policies and poverty throughout Latin America. It’s all America’s fault that we have opportunity and a high standard of living, but we’re selfish jerks who don’t want to open our borders and share our wealth. Apparently, the $982 million dollars we gave to Latin American countries in 2005 alone (up from $894 million in 2004 and $896 million in 2003) isn’t nearly enough.

And all of your anger is directed at Atwater who exploited and expanded a Gore-initiated assault against the Tank Commander.

Does it occur to you that in justifying your call for an apology you have focused on issue that are also pre-blogger (Atwater and Chelsea)? Are you aware that, Today, on a heading of this very site, there is an allegation that Bush had warning of 9-11?

Re this argument, you are waste deep in the Big Muddy, methinks.

Dugger