The images of the right-wing minutemen “border patrol” struck me as familiar when I first saw them, but it was one of those historical similarities you just can’t put your finger on to remember it. And then, I did:
For those of you playing at home, that is Klansman (and former Republican candidate for Governor) David Duke who is on “border watch” for the KKK.
How does Oliver know they are right-wing? The article doesn’t say anything about the politics of the minutemen pictured.
Oliver would never jump to a conclusion and smear someone without investigating first, would he? Surely a classy outfit like MM wouldn’t stand for such a thing, would they?
So you’re comparing people who merely report illegal immigrants to the Border Patrol to the KKK?
It’s hard to imagine you writing some more stupid.
David Duke currently supports the anti-war movement, so obviously the anti-war movement must be based on the same racist premises that drive Duke. Hmmm…
And are you sure thats former R David Duke? I could swear its a young current D Robert Byrd or as they call him back in the WV hills, ‘Kleagsy’.
BTW, good tactic for the left to blow off the immigration problem. Just like your terrorism policy (fund first responders so that when we get hit again, we can carry off the bodies faster) – all negative and no plan, nothing positive. I might suggest you read some of D Gov Bill Richardson’s positions on immigration. They are a lot closer to the R than D side. Or does Comrade Richardson no longer exist in the party record – same as the rumored Zell Miller?
Dugger
“Sheets” Byrd? Who died and appointed you Rush Limbaugh?
Byrd renounced his “sheets”. The Republican party plays footsie under the “sheets”.
One of our interns at CAP wrote an article for Campus Progress about his experience with his father being a volunteer for a Minuteman group.
So you re comparing people who merely report illegal immigrants to the Border Patrol to the KKK? It s hard to imagine you writing some more stupid.
Jay, obviously you’re using hyperbole instead of… well, Google. Clearly, not all members of the Minutemen are white supremacists, but outright dismissing the documented connections between the two only makes you look foolish.
Dugger, don’t waste time with Byrd. That’s not the issue here. Oliver seemingly has a problem with a group of citizens who do nothing more than report people illegally crossing the border to the appropriate authorities. They’ve completely distanced themselves from white supremacists groups and have told such groups trying to use the Minuteman Project as some sort of recruiting tool to take a hike. The few acts of violence that have taken place are from groups that have no association with the Minuteman Project. Other violence has been at the hands of protestors. In short, they are like a Neighborhood Watch.
But to Oliver, they’re like the KKK. You’d do better to focus on Oliver’s ignorance and not ‘Sheets’ Byrd.
Oh. My. God. This is a ridiculous statement. Bush and the republican congress have been driving fiscal conservatives nuts with the increases in spending in these areas.
You forgot the word “illegal.”
To those of you calling the Minutemen benign, I suggest you read Navid Neiwert’s pieces on this subject. They provide the context and facts which anyone who would call them a benign movement sorely lacks. Here’s the link to part 6 of 6, the first five are linked at the top of the article: http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2006/01/march-of-minutemen_18.html. Jay, to say that the only acts of violence came from protesters is just absurd, and really throws into doubt your credibility on this issue.
And are you sure thats former R David Duke? I could swear its a young current D Robert Byrd or as they call him back in the WV hills, Kleagsy .
Byrd was a member in the 40’s. He has renounced the KKK and over the decades made good on his renouncement by supporting policies that the KKK hates.
Meanwhile, the Republican party continues to race-bait, continues to play cozy with the Kouncils of Koncerned Kitizens, continues to starve social programs and infrastructure, to ignore education and health care, and to scapegoat immigrants.
Times change. Time was the republican party was the party of emancipation. Now it’s the party of entrenched privilege. Now it’s the party of Willie Hortonizing and John McCain’s black baby. Nobody cares what anyone was in the 40’s: who are you now?
Some day in the not-too-distant future Robert Byrd will die. Then what will you do? How else are you going to divert attention from your party’s systemic insensitivity to issues involving race?
Dugger, let me get this straight. You complement someone who gave you a factual response to a false comparison YOU made and then condescendingly say that that kind of factual response is what you aim to do? Then you plead for that kind of “cool factual assessment” from the other side? Is it ok to be hyperbolic and inaccurate, or is it not? Help me out.
The organizers can call the sympathizers “rogue” all they want, but the fact is it was their intention to attract such rogues, and given the organizers’ histories and past statements, they seem to have more in common with these rogue racist xenophobes then with mainstream society. Doesn’t it matter to you that every claim the Minutemen leaders has made as to limiting the “extremist” element in the border watch has turned out to be false? They claimed that they were working with the FBI to do background checks, totally false. They claimed they were doing comprehensive gun permit checks, totally false. Why would they lie if they weren’t covering up their back channel connection to these “rogues”?
Jay, your point was that the violence did not come from the Minutemen group. You are wrong.
The minutemen are just “concerned citizens” the way the mob has always had a bunch of “honest businessmen” within their ranks. There are honest concerns on both sides of the aisle on immigration, but the Minutemen are just a bunch of anti-hispanic good old boys with ties to white supremacists.
Wilbur, Your reply on Byrd was fine – factual and correct. It is the type of response I seek to make everytime someone calls Bush a liar or makes some stupid hyperbolic charge against Republicans. Would be nice if tat same desire for a cool factual assessment applied to the ‘demons’ on hte otehr side.
Dugger
Jay, to say that the only acts of violence came from protesters is just absurd, and really throws into doubt your credibility on this issue.
Read more closely please. I did not say the only acts of violence came from protestors. I said any violence has been the result of rogues or splinter groups that are not officially associated with the MMP.
As for Neiwert, I read it. It doesn’t say anything. It’s another attempt by Neiwert to assign a group or person an extremist label that is looking to infiltrate the mainstream. Cripes, he did the same thing with Rush Limbaugh for crying out loud. If you believed Neiwert, Limbaugh is more dangerous to American than Osama bin Laden.
Clearly, not all members of the Minutemen are white supremacists, but outright dismissing the documented connections between the two only makes you look foolish.
What documented connections? Let’s see them.
You could probably find many more anti-semites marching in those pathetic pro-war rallies. And I mean real anti-semites, not leftists who merely oppose the heavy-handed violations of human rights committed by Israel on the Palastinians.
Phelps is a democrat? I thought democrats were the ones fighting for sodomy rights. Shoot, let me check my ACLU card, i’m so confused…
JWG, you’re right, since Duke is anti-Iraq War it proves that the rabid anti-semitic christian fundamentalism that oozes through the conservative pro-Iraq War movement is an illusion.
From Wikipedia:
Geez, your link is one “tie” rather than multiple “ties” considering it discussed one person with racist beliefs who is involved with the Minutemen.
Is that the standard of relationship you wish to set? I bet I can find some anti-semites who march in anti-war demonstrations.
Re republicans starving infrastructure, education, health care and social programs:
Oh. My. God. This is a ridiculous statement. Bush and the republican congress have been driving fiscal conservatives nuts with the increases in spending in these areas.
Sure, I realize that there’s a really nutty part of the party that’s even more cold-hearted and medieval than Bush.
Dugger:
Wilbur, Your reply on Byrd was fine – factual and correct. It is the type of response I seek to make everytime someone calls Bush a liar or makes some stupid hyperbolic charge against Republicans. Would be nice if tat same desire for a cool factual assessment applied to the demons on hte otehr side.
I don’t think I have to add much to mjb’s reply to this. Once again we see that for Republicans, “civility” in public discourse means “you should treat me fairly while I sling trash and slander at you to my heart’s content.” Any right-wing call for “civility” that doesn’t begin with a heartfelt apology for twenty years of Atwater, Rove, Limbaugh, Robertson, etc. will be talking to the hand as far as I’m concerned.
Like David Duke? Oh, wait…he’s against the war.
From the Minutemen website:
http://www.minutemanhq.com/project/AboutMMP.html
The men and women volunteering for this mission are those who are willing to sacrifice their time, and the comforts of a cozy home, to muster for something much more important than acquiring more “toys” to play with while their nation is devoured and plundered by the menace of tens of millions of invading illegal aliens.
Future generations will inherit a tangle of rancorous, unassimilated, squabbling cultures with no common bond to hold them together, and a certain guarantee of the death of this nation as a harmonious “melting pot.”
The result: political, economic and social mayhem.
Historians will write about how a lax America let its unique and coveted form of government and society sink into a quagmire of mutual acrimony among the various sub-nations that will comprise the new self-destructing America.”
Christ. Let’s just call illegal immigrants “vermin” and have done with it so we can move on to the “extermination” phase.
Like so much of conservative politics these days, the Minutemen are driven entirely by irrational and virulent fear. You guys defending this kind of rhetoric need to step back and take a good hard look at what it is you are really supporting, because it sounds to me, as it would to most average Americans, like an armed apocalyptic cult that has identified for itself an enemy that it alone has the power stop. That ain’t going to end well, guys, not by a long shot.
Fred Phelps is anti-war.
Fred Phelps is also a Democrat.
We are saying that the movement itself is racist with racist roots which are well documented, although the establishment print and tv media don t cover the Minutemen as such.
Everybody keeps saying this. Where is this documentation? Provide some evidence already.
If you can provide some verifiable evidence of these accusations, then I’ll renounce them right now. But again, anecdotal evidence and sinister projections about what could happen is pointless.
And I have to ask a very simple question: What is wrong about calling the Border Patrol when one witnesses a person illegally entering the country? It is after all, against the law to do so. Calling the Border Patrol when they see this activity is no different than calling the cops if you see somebody breaking into your neighbors home. I’m just dumbfounded that people are opposed to that.
JWG, I feel that it wasn’t obvious that your point was “that pointing to one or a few racist individuals who support an issue doesn t provide evidence that the issue is racist” because you have refused to see that we are not claiming one or a few racist individuals are spoiling the Minuteman movement. We are saying that the movement itself is racist with racist roots which are well documented, although the establishment print and tv media don’t cover the Minutemen as such. I though that was obvious.
The point, which I thought was obvious, is that pointing to one or a few racist individuals who support an issue doesn’t provide evidence that the issue is racist. That is, unless you want to distort the issue to your advantage by demonizing the entire group.
It would seem Odub was making a specious connection b/w the KKK and Minutemen only if you don’t know about the historical and present day connections b/w racist groups and these border enthusiasts. If you take his Duke reference in context, which has been given in the comments repeatedly, it’s ridiculous to say that OW was trying to prove a whole group is racist because one member is. The fact is, the deep racist bent of this group and others like it are already well established and OW was highlighting one such example to show that this is not a new phenomenon.
Please explain why opposition to lax border enforcement is racist. It makes sense that racists would be drawn to the issue, but that doesn’t make the issue racist.
My response was to OW who made repeated claims but only made one link which referenced one person. Likewise, this entire thread is about the shared “connection” between the KKK and the Minutemen based on the fact that they both watched the border. Both connections made by OW are faulty.
As to any other documentation, OW is more than capable of using it to bolster his case. He hasn’t.
Not saying that opposition to lax border control is racist. Am saying that their motivation has almost uniformly come from racist sentiment, especially the previous incarnations of this movement.
but the Minutemen are just a bunch of anti-hispanic good old boys with ties to white supremacists.
That’s typical of Media Matters nonsense. They find ONE person volunteering in the Minuteman Project and suddenly that becomes the equivalent of entire organization having ‘ties’ to white supremacist groups.
That kind of crap was the same thing that was tried by detractors of the NRA trying to link them with Tim McVeigh. Why? Because Tim McVeigh went to one meeting of the Michigan Militia. He was told not to come back. The Michigan Militia met one time with Tanya Metaska who at the time was the NRA’s legal counsel. Therefore, the NRA had ‘ties’ to both Tim McVeigh and radical violent militia groups.
Everybody remember that? Militia groups were going to try and take over the country. Lot’s of books were published about the ‘danger’ they represented to the country. “This is only the beginning!” cried the detractors after the OK City bombing.
Now the new danger are a group of people who are tired of the fact that this government does not put enough resources into preventing illegal immigrants from crossing the border. So they’ve taken it upon themselves to patrol these areas themselves and report to the Border Patrol any illegals they see crossing over. What is wrong with that?
In order for anybody to establish that this is a dangerous organization has to provide some proof beyond anecdotal evidence.
Wilbur, You just demonstrated something about civility. Tell you what, you will get an apology from the right for what you consider the bad statements of Atwater etc, right after we get a full hearfelt apology from your ideological kinsmen for the murder of 100,000,000 innocents. And further, see reply to mjb below. You don’t need to add anything because he is totally wrong.
mjb, It your big chance, son. Where did I make a ‘false comparison’ re ex Ku Klux Klan VIP – Democratic Senator Robert Byrd. Try hard, because it ain’t there.
Dugger
Here’s a reading project for you, Jay. The National Vanguard loves it some Minutemen. Go ahead and search for Minutement under the news category and check out the opinion pieces that show up. You’ll know them because they have headlines like “The World is Ending …”, “Why They Must Be Expelled” and “Of Mice and Minutemen.” Come back and tell us all that these guys aren’t racists who share in and support the Minutemen’s rhetoric.
http://www.nationalvanguard.org/search.php
I read your link. The problem with your argument is that it blocks any future border organizations since they have been organized by racists in the past. Again, support from racists does not equate to racism.
Two citations have been provided, one from OW and one from you. Both demonstrate that there are racists in the organization. Both demonstrate that racists have always been opposed to illegal immigration (among other things). Neither demonstrates that the Minutemen organization is a racist organization.
Here we go again. Look at their rhetoric, Jay. These guys aren’t just saying that they want to stop illegal activity because they care so much about following law. They say in their own words that they’re out to protect our “culture” from the menacing hordes. They want to protect us from the danger of “sub-nations.” Sub-nations? Give me a break. Is there a doubt in anyone’s mind what the Minutemen mean when they use the term sub-nation?
You guys like to smear Michael Moore by saying he sounds an awful lot like Osma Bin Laden. Well, you can’t do that and then bitch when someone points out the thinly masked racism apparent in the Minutemen’s own paranoid screeds. They say they want to defend our “culture” but the hard core racists right has long equated culture and nation with race. Go ahead and read this idiot if you can stomach it and you’ll get a good flavor of who relates to the Minutemen’s message.
“Nation is flesh and blood. It is people. It is a common consciousness of an identity. A consciousness of a people s characteristics. Nation is language, culture, customs, religion. It is common perceptions, fears, and phobias. A common identification of who is the common enemy, or perceived friends. Nation is the knowledge of a common history and a common yearning for a common destiny.
A cat born in a stable is not a horse. Thus a birth certificate does not make a Nigerian Negroid a German, a Frenchman, or a Maltese. Race determines everything. Nations are the various subdivisions of the race.”
http://nationalvanguard.org/printer.php?id=2392
Oh and who is the National Vanguard?
“National Vanguard is what you’ve been looking for: an intelligent and responsible organization that stands up for the interests of White people.”
http://nationalvanguard.org/story.php?id=6678
I’ll play happy medium- I’m sure that not all border patrols are racist, but I’m sure there a few out there motivated by that. There are some people who seem themselves as patriots protecting us from sneaky terrorists and there are some who see this as a great chnace to shoot those Mex-e-cans who stole their jobs. As with all endevours, not everyone has the same motivation.
I’ll tell you what, we won’t associate the KKK with the Republican party and the Minutemen if your side doesn’t associate bin Laden with Democrats because the Democrats are nominally against the Iraq War.
Deal?
it s ridiculous to say that OW was trying to prove a whole group is racist because one member is.
Actually, he said it right in the comments:
In short, he’s saying the whole group is racist.
Am saying that their motivation has almost uniformly come from racist sentiment, especially the previous incarnations of this movement.
So being fed up with the government not doing enough to secure our borders is now racist sentiment? One would think that after 9/11, border security would be a high priority for every American or LEGAL immigrant.
“And I have to ask a very simple question: What is wrong about calling the Border Patrol when one witnesses a person illegally entering the country?”
What is wrong with that is that the movement is based on racism and lies. These people actually believe that the illegal migrants’ motivation to cross comes from some Mexican conspiracy to take back the southwest (seriously), or to deal drugs, or to rape our women to muddy the bloodlines, rather than economic or political necessity (or at least what they view as necessity), or even more pathetically, to stem the tide of terrorism which they allege against all facts is coming through the southern border. The movement may not be per se racist, but the people who run it and populate it are almost uniformly racist. That’s why the leaders lied (about the background and permit checks) to show their bona fides. Why did they lie? And if they truly wanted to show their bona fides they could have aligned themselves with the many mainstream liberal and conservative immigration reform groups. They chose not to. They chose thier target and rhetoric for reasons that cannot be benignly explained.
You want proof, read the Neiwert stuff and check the SPLC articles.
You know it s because those groups also support non-paramilitary solutions to the problem
Right. Calling the Border Patrol is now a para-military solution to the problem of illegal immigration.
And I’ve noticed that not one of you has responded to my points on how the Minuteman lied to cover up it’s recruiting of ostensible extremists (as opposed to the undercover extremists who are the face of the movement), and how that reflects on their credibility when they say they are all about getting the crazies out of their movement. You know as well as I that they encourage the crazies because if not for them there would be next to no turnout at their little border meetings.
And Jay, you missed the point again. OW didn’t post the picture to “prove” that the Minutemen are racist hillbillies. He showed it to highlight the fact that everyone already is aware of.
I think the MM are doing a great job. However, what will places like Wal-Mart do when they have to pay the minimum wage to non-immigrants?
Then Brandon, why have they lied about distancing themselves from the even more extreme extremists? Why have they not actively tried to make their movement look more moderate in anyway except by saying they are moderate. As I’ve said, they could have allied themselves with serious groups working on serious border and immigration issues. Why haven’t they? You know it’s because those groups also support non-paramilitary solutions to the problem, but unless the right can hang onto it’s misguided belief that the only solutions to any problem lie in their might as men, they are lost.
Dugger said: “I could swear its (sic) a young current (?) D Robert Byrd”
I’ll assume that you meant to cast no aspersions on Democrats while fluffing over the many modern connections b/w the right and racist groups. I’ll also assume that you were merely plucking a random name of an ex-KKK member out of thin air to make whatever point it was that you were making, rather than following the winger tactic of changing the debate by bringing up Byrd. But, as I said, I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt, so, assuming that, you’re right. Got me.
“Does anyone read this blog for seriousness anymore?”
Oliver’s sycophants apparently do.
I don’t, though.
Frame, I could care less about the National Vanguard. Big deal. They support the MinuteMan Project. As has been pointed out before, David Duke is a big supporter of Cindy Sheehan. The majority of those opposed to the war support Cindy Sheehan and what she says and so does David Duke. You could have read about ole Cindy on Duke’s website. Now, using YOUR logic Frameone, I can connect dots too and say Sheehan and her supporters are now quasi-supporters of David Duke. Right?
Wrong. People that have an agenda are going to use anything they can to advance that agenda as long as they can frame what is happening as supportive of their ridiculous cause. As such, its wrong for you to say that because the National Vanguard supports what the MinuteMan Project is doing, makes the MMP guilty of being racists.
They say in their own words that they re out to protect our culture from the menacing hordes. They want to protect us from the danger of sub-nations. Sub-nations? Give me a break. Is there a doubt in anyone s mind what the Minutemen mean when they use the term sub-nation?
Sure. All you have to do is go back to what they first said on that page:
The Minuteman Project is not a call to arms, but a call to voices seeking a peaceful and respectable resolve to the chaotic neglect by members of our local, state and federal governments charged with applying U.S. immigration law.
It is a call to bring national awareness to the decades-long careless disregard of effective U.S. immigration law enforcement. It is a reminder to Americans that our nation was founded as a nation governed by the “rule of law”, not by the whims of mobs of ILLEGAL aliens who endlessly stream across U.S. borders.
It’s easy to see what they’re talking about. If the people who are coming here illegally know they can do so without much fear of being caught and deported, then what is their motivation for following any of our laws? When laws aren’t enforced and nobody cares, what does that bring? It brings anarchy.
Funny, I did a search on the Minutemen official website and found not one mention of this Vanguard group that frame references.
Which simply proves that just because A supports B, B does not necessarily support A.
Jay, exactly. Para-military just refers to any police force. To employ them is to use a para-military solution. I was saying that some people feel that that may not be the only solution to the problem. No serious person could claim that increased border patrol is not necessary, but alone it will not solve jack. But i suppose you’d say, “Build a fence”.
The Minutemen is not a call to arms but they aggressively sought out licensed gun owners to sign up and patrol. Makes sense to me. If they try to physically block an illegal from coming across, the illegal fights back, does the Minuteman have a right to shoot him, even though he provoked the confrontation? That is exactly what they want to happen.
Wilbur, You just demonstrated something about civility. Tell you what, you will get an apology from the right for what you consider the bad statements of Atwater etc, right after we get a full hearfelt apology from your ideological kinsmen for the murder of 100,000,000 innocents.
I will overlook the slanderous nature of your assertion that the people to whom you refer (I assume you mean, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc.) are my “ideological kinsmen” and give you what you ask for:
“I detest, despise, reject and renounce all mass murderers of any ideological stripe: Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Saddam, Pinochet. You name them and I will abominate them. If I have ever carelessly or clumsily said anything so as to make anyone think that I condone or excuse such crimes against humanity, I do sincerely and whole-heartedly apologize for it. I will never, ever condone the murder of innocents in any number for any reason whatsoever.”
See, it’s not so hard, and I didn’t call you any names in the course of it. I await a similar declaration from you abjuring the lies and tactics of Atwater, Rove, Limbaugh, Robertson, etc.
If they try to physically block an illegal from coming across
But they don’t do that.
Many are armed because of the gangs and drug dealers who have already threatened members of the MMP project for what they’re doing.
Look, I’m not going to deny there are elements of this organization that are probably joining, just so they can have the opportunity to plink a “wetback.” I won’t argue that. And yes, they should be more vigilant in weeding out such people if they want to be more legitimate.
However, the actions of this group thus far have not been violent. They’ve behaved, as I said in a similar manner to that of a neighborhood watch organization. They are merely contacting border patrol when they witness people illegally entering the country. Nobody would blink at a group of residents in a neighborhood getting together and patrolling the streets and calling the cops whenever they witnessed any criminal activity. But calling the Border Patrol on illegals? RACIST!
hey mjb,
Assume what you want – I could care less what your imagination conjurs up. Only I know what I ‘meant’. You didn’t back up your ‘comparison’ charge and thats what I contended you would be unable to do.
Wilbur,
Rush is often very funny and I endorse 9/10s of what he says. Rove is a great party tactician. I don’t like Robertson – never have. He goes too far. I condemn Hitler and other right wing murderers (unfortunately, in my 50% of the total political spectrum) with the same language you condemn leftist murderers – except that I note that historically, worldwide, the extreme left (in your 50% of the total political spectrum – what I was trying to say) has been much, much more murderous than the extreme right. But neither are welcome on my block.
My point would be that if we are really, really worried about extremists as conjured by OWs image in this post, historically there is much more to fear from the extreme left than the extreme right. My point also is that polemicists such as Rush, Olberman etc are not a problem in the sense that real political extremists like Pol Pot, Castro, Hitler are. And if you are worried about those guys and don’t know what has gone on historically, you may be in for some unpleasnt surprises in your adult life.
Dugger
Best Minuteman photo caption. From Norbizness.
Ian,
And again with the fat jokes…
“Yea? Yea? Uh, well… your mom! Huh! Take that logic!”
“MMP is affiliated with MinutemanHQ.com, the new National Organization for the original Minuteman border project. It is the only group authorized by Chris Simcox and Jim Gilchrist. MMP has no affiliation with, nor will we accept any assistance by or interference from, separatists, racists, or supremacy groups or individuals, no matter what their race, color, or creed.”
I don’t know this Gilchrist guy, but I did have a chance to listen and speak with Chris Simcox on Saturday in Atlanta. He was a teacher for 13 years in Los Angeles, and thoroughly enjoyed hiking and camping. After 9/11, bummed out (like who wasn’t), he took a leave and went to a national park in Arizona, on the Mexican border, to just get away from it all and clear his head. Seems that particular park was also a highway for illegals, not just folks looking to work for a living, but drug runners also. At the end of the week, he asked around the Park Service and border patrol as to why they let this happen – that is, why permit these folks to just troop across the border? The simple answer was that they didn’t have the funds or people to stop it.
He got pissed, because what better way to allow terrorists into the country with whatever weapons they could bring? He went back home, did his research, organized, wrote letters to Congress, had meetings, and NOTHING HAPPENED. It was like he didn’t exist and there wasn’t any problem (this is fairly typical of the Bush crime family).
It was then that the Minutemen came into being. He said they screened all of their people; that their goal was to alert the border patrol to unauthorized crossings; and to help anyone in trouble. They weren’t vigilantes, just people who cared deeply for their country and to call out the danger in letting this continue.
He sounded about as radical as Oliver rooting for the Redskins.
Right, because fighting illegal immigration is just plain and racist. Our founding fathers intended for Jose and Maria to come into our country illegally.
Where is the right to an abortion in the Constitution?
Ian, I do seem to recall that the founders engaged in some rather vigorous efforts to, um, encourage people to come to the U.S.–whether they wanted to or not.
Ian wrote:
My days of studying American history are so far behind me, I’ve probably forgotten most of it. Perhaps you can point us to the place where the founders put immigration restrictions into the Constitution.
Rush is often very funny and I endorse 9/10s of what he says. Rove is a great party tactician. I don t like Robertson – never have. He goes too far.
If your endorse the divisive and uncivil tactics of Rush and Rove, and can muster only tepid and vague tongue-clucking on the subject of Robertson, then don’t go complaining about the lack of the civility of the left. When you do so it is utterly hypocritical. I have no idea how old you are, but learning can go on at any age, so I remain hopeful that you will come to understand that in the fulness of time.
The point is not, Dugger, whether worse crimes have been committed by both left and right. they surely have. The topic was civility, and as far as I can remember, you introduced it. Don’t imagine that you can avoid looking foolish by changing the topic.
Actually, its the republicans who argue for the strict interpritation of the constitution, Ian, hence the anti-abortion argument. The fact that immigration is not in the constitution is inconsistent with that belief.
Jay –
Here’s what you can say following my logic. The rhetoric of the Minutemen is the rhetoric of the paranoid, racist far right wing. There is no difference. Both state that they are out to defend “American culture” from an onslaught of illegal immigrants that threaten to “devour” and “plunder” our nation. If your aim is defend the laws of this country, you don’t have to go any further than the first half of their statement which one could read as totally reasonable, so long as one also thinks that vigilantism is a mainstream, reasonable position. But then again, the Minutemen don’t stop there, do they Jay.
It’s the second half of their mission statement that reveals the stark paranoia that motivates these people. Are we just supposed to ignore that part? Only if we want to put our head in the sand.
You guys say that these immigrants are breaking the law. Indeed they are. But isn’t it a crime in the way that stealing bread when you’re hungry is a crime, which most of us are willing to forgive as a crime of necessity? Most immigrants come to this country as a matter of economic survival, both for themselves and the relatives they leave behind. It is just ridiculous to suggest that just because someone is willing to illegally enter this country to find work they must be equally willing to break every other law in the country as well. As if the desire to feed yourself and your family is also evidence of total lawlessness.
But that isn’t really what the Minutemen are talking about Jay. Not at all. What they’re talking about when they refer to “sub-nations” isn’t some neighborhood where everyone jaywalks and speeds because “Hey, fuck it, were illegal anyway.” What the Minutemen are afraid of is that these immigrant neighborhoods and communities are the beginnings of “sub-nations” like the Basques in Spain or the Kurds in Iraq which will one day demand independence from the larger nation around them based on racial solidarity.
It’s the same paranoid fear and rhetoric of the hard core racist right. The only difference is that where the Minutemen assert that: “Historians will write about how a lax America let its unique and coveted form of government and society sink into a quagmire of mutual acrimony among the various sub-nations that will comprise the new self-destructing America.” The hard core right just says “Race War.”
“What Rush says and does is polemical and partisan but it pales to the likes of Kos, OW, and leftie posters ont his site.”
Oh please. Are you kidding me? Limbaugh is ground zero for the corsening of political speech in this country. You seem to have learned your lessens well from him, Dugger. Your whole contribution to this thread has been a serious of slanderous non-sequitors and dodges. You are simply one of the most dishonest commentors I have ever come across. Liberals in this country have to apologize for Stalin? Go fuck yourself. All the civility you deserve.
Wilbur,
Rush etc engage in partisan political speech. I suspect neither of us knows entirely what Rush or Franken or Joe Blow actually has said in entirety. To set aside Rush etc and claim that he or he Rove etc is the main problem with civility is silly. Rush is no different than a thousand commenters on the left – partisan political commenters. IE, Do you wish all partisan commenters to apologize or just the right wing ones? What Rush says and does is polemical and partisan but it pales to the likes of Kos, OW, and leftie posters ont his site. The failure of you or I to practice civility is not excused by Rush et al. You, in afit of bad judgenent, deciode that apologies were needed from ONLY right wing political commenters. makes nos ense to me. My point: leet ‘em be. The yahoos that murder millions on th e left right, Commies/Nazis/real extremists are the problem.
And get over the age thing. I’m right or wrong for what I say – not becasue of my imagined age. IMO I extended you a minor civil courtesy and you acted like a jerk. Your perogative.
Dugger
Dugger at 4:17:
And if you are worried about those guys and don t know what has gone on historically, you may be in for some unpleasnt surprises in your adult life.
Dugger at 9:28:
And get over the age thing. I m right or wrong for what I say – not becasue of my imagined age.
That’s about all we need to know about you, Dugger.
Just a small appendage to what frameone said: Oliver and most of the other leftish blogonauts were probably still on their tricycles when Lee Atwater engineered the Willlie Horton slander, Pat Robertson started channelling God, and Rush Limbaugh started making a career our of smearing “feminazis” and making fun of Chelsea Clinton’s looks. I challenge you to name any five lefties who had as much to do with the coarsening of public discourse as any one of these gentlemen in the period before the rise of the blogosphere. In the last few years some of us pinkos have started to kick back, sometimes excessively, but it’s a reaction, not a provocation. It’s the sort of slaps you can expect to get if you keep hurling garbage about “Sheets” Byrd and the like. You want nice? Act nice.
For my right-wing blogger friends who defend the Minutemen, it is perfectly acceptable to defend the bigots, wingnuts and white supremacists that populate these and other anti-immigration groups on the right. It is the American way to defend xenophobia and racism in the face of the truth. So by all means, if the swastika fits, wear it and be honest about your bigotry. Be proud. Stand tall and shout it from the rooftops. Don’t hide behind some mealy mouthed rhetoric about the imaginery racists of the left. You are the racists. Own it.
From the Southern Poverty Law Center s Intelligence Report:
COCHISE COUNTY, Ariz. — The predominantly Hispanic towns of Douglas and Naco are connected by the aptly named Border Road, a 20-mile stretch of rocky dirt that runs parallel to a ragged barbed wire fence separating the United States from Mexico.
The night of April 3, armed vigilantes camped along Border Road in a series of watch posts set-up for the Minuteman Project, a month-long action in which revolving casts of 150 to 200 anti-immigration militants wearing cheap plastic “Undocumented Border Patrol Agent” badges mobilized in southeastern Arizona. Their stated goal was to “do the job our government refuses to do” and “protect America” from the “tens of millions of invading illegal aliens who are devouring and plundering our nation.”
At Station Two, Minuteman volunteers grilled bratwursts and fantasized about murder. “It should be legal to kill illegals,” said Carl, a 69-year old retired Special Forces veteran who fought in Vietnam and now lives out West. “Just shoot ‘em on sight. That’s my immigration policy recommendation. You break into my country, you die.”
Carl was armed with a revolver chambered to fire shotgun shells. He wore this hand cannon in a holster below a shirt that howled “American bad asses” in red, white and blue. The other vigilantes assigned to Station Two included a pair of self-professed members of the National Alliance, a violent neo-Nazi organization. These men, who gave their names only as Johnny and Michael, were outfitted in full-body camouflage and strapped with semi-automatic pistols.
Earlier that day, Johnny and Michael had scouted sniper positions in the rolling, cactus-studded foothills north of Border Road, taking compass readings and drawing maps for future reference.
“I agree completely,” Michael said. “You get up there with a rifle and start shooting four or five of them a week, the other four or five thousand behind them are going to think twice about crossing that line.”
With a grilled sausage in one hand and a cheap night vision scope in the other, Johnny scanned the brush in Mexico, spitting distance away.
“The thing to do would be to drop the bodies just a few hundred feet into the U.S. and just leave them there, with lights on them at night,” he said. “That sends the message ‘No Trespassing,’ in any language.”
The conversation stopped just short of decapitating Mexicans and putting their heads on pikes, facing south.
“I don’t really like violence, but if we did start doing what you’re talking about, it would show we mean business for a change,” said the group’s only woman, and the only person who didn’t carry a gun. “It would say, ‘This is the USA, don’t f**k with us!”
The woman, who said she was with a Pennsylvania anti-immigration group, had outraged Johnny and Michael that afternoon by reporting for duty with a Star of David pendant dangling below the neckline of her “I Survived the Minuteman Project” t-shirt. She also squabbled with them over the morality of pit bull fighting, and expressed her belief in animal rights and no-kill dog and cat shelters. They started calling her “Jew bitch” behind her back.
She got back on their good side by condoning blood lust.
“Damn, I thought you were one of them,” Michael said. “One of what?” the woman asked. “You know, animal rights, pacifism, save the kittens, all that crap.” “Well, this may sound a little weird, but I just have more respect for the lives of stray cats and dogs than I do illegal aliens.”
“That’s not weird at all,” Michael said. “Not one damn bit.”
For full article: http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/
Ian,
That was a clumsy attempt to change the subject–even for you.
I was remarking on your earlier comment: a seemingly sarcastic statement that the founders, having achieved separation from England, promptly acted to keep “Jose and Maria” out of our new republic.
Thus my question about the Constitution. How did you come by the befuddled notion that the founders ever even contemplated the question of immigration limits, much less that they expressed an intention that sprang from that contemplation?
Your sparkling rejoinder: “Where is the right to an abortion in the Constitution?” would make sense, but only if I was the one asserting that today’s practice should conform with the founders’ intent. I’m not, and so you’ve wasted that precious nugget of wit.
Roger Ebert’s impact as a political commentator = Rush Limbaugh.
One comment by Roger Ebert = three hours a day five days a week of market-saturating trash talk by Limbaugh and the myriad Limbaugh wannabes
Only in the Duggerverse.
And about feisty liberals: did you miss the part where I said “…since before the rise of the blogoverse?”
I will give you one thing: The Willie Horton biz was not slander, per se, it was race-baiting.
Gore criticized Dukakis for the work-release program. He didn’t race-bait the issue the way Atwater did. Look it up.
Willie Horton wasn’t slander. In fact Al Gore per WaPo and ABC, first brought up Willie Horton. So what you are asking is that somebody beleive your disrorted version of history and then apaologize to you for it.
And Chelsea was overboard and wrong re Rush, just as Ebert was wrong to pick on the Bush daughters. Can you tell me where it is you are calling for Ebert to apologize? A simple cite of a previous complaint against Ebert on your part wins the debate. Otherwise, it appears your complaints are all, ahem, interestingly one-sided.
AS far as naming polemical leftists, now we have no way of measuring who’s right or wrong, do we?. Al Franken, Mikey Moore, Cynthia McKinney, Ray Nagins, Ted Kennedy. Off the top of my head. Next.
Dugger, Easy Pickens
Trevor, thank you for once again providing the same example that’s already been discussed about a couple of racists with despicable views about most things who believe that illegal immigration should be stopped. (BTW, did they actually kill anyone? Did they resort to any violence what-so-ever?)
Racist support for a cause does not make the cause racist.
So Wilbur, its not the words you object to or that the commenter is national figure (Ebert has a national weekly TV show – Rush old AM radio) its the effectiveness of those words you object to. IE, it would have evidently been OK for Rush (a decade ago) to say Chelsea was ugly as long as he was not an effective radio commenter.
And all of your anger is directed at Atwater who exploited and expanded a Gore-initiated assault against the Tank Commander.
Does it occur to you that in justifying your call for an apology you have focused on issue that are also pre-blogger (Atwater and Chelsea)? Are you aware that, Today, on a heading of this very site, there is an allegation that Bush had warning of 9-11?
Re this argument, you are waste deep in the Big Muddy, methinks.
Dugger
So, wanting to stop illegal immigration is equal to “xenophobia and racism”? Sorry, but you can keep your swastika.
I read the full SPLC article you linked. Is this supposed to be a news report or a (slanted) opinion piece? Who was the author? I saw a lot of racist people quoted and racist actions described first hand. Other than this “report”, has there been any other corroboration of these statements or events in the media or by any other organization?
Further down in the story, you have this piece:
Vigilante militias have been capturing, pistol-whipping and very possibly shooting Latin American immigrants in Cochise County since the late ’90s, when shifts in U.S. border control policies transformed the high desert region into the primary point of entry for Mexico’s two most valuable black market exports, drugs and people.
“very possibly” shooting immigrants? Is the capturing and pistol-whipping documented?
But the Minuteman Project raised the stakes with a highly publicized national recruiting drive followed by a campaign of deceitful media manipulation. These maneuvers generated massive and mostly positive nationwide coverage of what in actuality was little more than a relatively small and ineffectual gathering of bigots and weekend warriors, led by a pair of dueling egos. While they played Army in the desert for a few weeks, this slapdash band was transformed by the hype into the elite vanguard of America’s anti-immigration movement.
“campaign of deceitful media manipulation”? “small and ineffectual gathering of bigots and weekend warriors”? “slapdash band”?
Nope, no unsubstantiated claims or bias here. Just your average fair and balanced news coverage. Contrast it with reports here or even here.
Did you also read the accompanying interview with Ray Ybarra, one of the ACLU “watchers” at the site? Maybe you missed this part:
IR: Have you seen or heard of any Minuteman volunteers pointing guns or committing acts of violence?
YBARRA: No, we haven’t. Of course, it’s impossible to know how they’d be acting if they didn’t know we’re watching. But I think that more than anything, the Minuteman Project has turned out to be a staged media event. So they’re on their best behavior.
No, we didn’t see anything bad happen, but the only reason they didn’t commit evil acts is because we were here.
And I think this part sums up Mr. Ybarra’s world views (and “very possibly” those of the SPLC as well):
IR: How will history judge the Minuteman Project?
YBARRA: My hope is that like slavery and racial segregation, future generations will look back upon the Minuteman Project, and this period on the border as a whole, with outrage and with wonder.
They will think, “How could this have been allowed, let alone condoned? How could it have been acceptable for so many people to needlessly suffer, just in order to find work, walking four or five days through a harsh desert environment? How could it have been acceptable for hundreds of these people to die every year of thirst, for them to die slowly, like animals that can’t fend for themselves anymore? How could it have been acceptable for armed vigilantes to stand in their way, taking the law into their own hands, and illegally imprisoning them?”
Apparently, wanting to stop illegal immigration is akin to slavery and segregation. I guess the real crime is that these poor immigrants have to endure dangerous hardships just to illegally enter this country and find work. Should we arrange air-conditioned buses to take them directly to the Home Depot day labor centers so they can start working with a minimum of discomfort?
Pay no attention to the endemic corruption, failed economic policies and poverty throughout Latin America. It’s all America’s fault that we have opportunity and a high standard of living, but we’re selfish jerks who don’t want to open our borders and share our wealth. Apparently, the $982 million dollars we gave to Latin American countries in 2005 alone (up from $894 million in 2004 and $896 million in 2003) isn’t nearly enough.
Yes, I do think there is a clear qualitative and quantitative distinction both in substance and intent between what Ebert does and what Limbaugh does. Last time I checked Ebert spent the vast majority of his time reviewing movies. Do you consider praise of “Brokeback Mountain” uncivil liberal commentary?
And yes, I do think there is a clear distinction -in terms of civility if nothing else – between ascribing ill effects to the Governor’s penal policies (as Gore Did), and suggesting that a vote for Dukakis will put a crazy black man in everyone’s living room (as Atwater did).
I’m sorry you can’t understand these simple distinctions.
Does it occur to you that in justifying your call for an apology you have focused on issue that are also pre-blogger
Um yes, that was the whole point: that you guys started it (and you’ve never quit). So don’t go whining if you’re getting some of it back now.
Re this argument, you are waste deep in the Big Muddy, methinks.
If by “Big Muddy” you’re referring to your own brain, I’m afraid you’re right.
I know this thread is old but Dugger, for christ’s sake, the Gore-Willie Horton talking point is the one, when used by conservatives, which most clearly shows one has not listened to the other side at all. Read the following and ask yourself if you still trust Rush and Hannity for lying to you.
From MediaMatters:
In fact, as Media Matters for America has documented, although Gore did ask Dukakis about “weekend passes for convicted criminals” during a 1988 Democratic primary debate, “Gore never mentioned that Horton was black; indeed, he never mentioned Horton by name,” as Slate.com “Chatterbox” columnist Timothy Noah noted on November 1, 1999. Further, as Daily Howler editor Bob Somerby has documented, Gore never mentioned Horton’s crime but specifically mentioned two other criminals who committed murder after escaping from their prison furlough.
It was the Bush-Quayle ‘88 campaign that first used the Horton case against Dukakis. After winning the Republican presidential nomination, George H.W. Bush frequently invoked Horton on the campaign trail to portray then-Massachusetts Governor Dukakis as soft on crime. As Newsweek reported in October 1988, Lee Atwater, Bush’s campaign manager said, “By the time this election is over, Willie Horton will be a household name.” The Americans for Bush arm of the National Security Political Action Committee used Horton in an anti-Dukakis attack ad that drew particular attention to Horton’s race.
mjb,
Media Matters is a left wing partisan site – hardly a reliable source for dog squeeze, much less partisan political issues. My sources for Gore’s use of the Horton issue were left wing ABC and left wing WaPo. Gore clearly used the issue against the tanker. Atwater, true, exploited it further. You have your left wing sites fight it out as to who got it right.
Wilbur,
Sure there’s a diffrence, Ebert is a rabid p[artisan who pretends he’s not apartisan and has a weekly national televison show. Rush acknolwedges he is a partisasn and is on AM radio. Listen to much AM radio at night? hear Rush?
I don’t mind your simple diffrences when in fact they are correct. I will concede there was a difference bewtwen Gore’s use of the issue and Atwaters (I think Atwater has, paradoxically, apologized for it).
And lets be clear, you are more concerned about what Rush did a decade ago than what Ebert did last year re the Bush girls. I see. Huge diffrence.
And I don’t care whether its pre-blogger or post blogger – you introduced that into the converstaion. I say both sdies have loudmouthed extremists and both side have polemiciists. I can sort it out. I don’t expect an apology from Ebert. You shouldn’t from Rush.
Dugger
No Dugger, the crowd has it right. Gore brought up the furlough program. He never mentioned the name of Willie Horton or any other criminal who participated in (or escaped from) the furlough program.
You may well find the GOP fantasy version of the Gore-Dukakis debates repeated by the WaPo or ABC. I’m pretty sure it’s been told and retold by reporters in the New York Times, the Washington Times, and endlessly on cable.
I encourage you to visit the Daily Howler and search for “Gore and Horton.” You’ll get a very long list of hits (Here’s just one example, if you don’t want to go to the trouble.) The mainstream press repeated many things about Mr. Gore that were simply false.
Here’s the link: http://mediamatters.org/items/200411100007
If you can tell me how this item is biased or untruthful, I’ll again buy you a cookie.
Quaker,
Ok. I’m only repeating what WaPo, Slate (Bill Bradley), and others on the left have said: that Al Gore started the whole thing against Dukakis. I’ve seen reports both ways as to how Gore actually used the issue versus Atwater. I am satisfied that Atwater used a picture and Gore did not. I am also satisfied that Atwater was factual. I don’t know whether Gore ever mentioned Horton by specific name or just referred to paroled convict(s) (Why would that be important?) As an issue and as an incident, Gore initiated and Atwater expanded (as I said).
mjb, Forget Media Matters – lest I refer you to News Max or something similar.
Dugger
Either he brought up Willie Horton or he didn’t. When Rush tells you that “Gore did it first” he’s trying to get you to believe that the racially tinged ads were pioneered by Gore. They were not. I defy you to find where the WaPo and ABC said anything of the sort.
So you don’t believe the left-wing Media Matters but you do believe the left-wing Washington Post and left-wing Slate. Except when you don’t. Or something. Got it.
Sure there s a diffrence, Ebert is a rabid p[artisan who pretends he s not apartisan and has a weekly national televison show.
How much of his show does Ebert spend pushing partisan politics? I don’t watch it but I would imagine the answer is almost none. How much of his show does Limbaugh spend pushing the same: close to all of it. See the diff?
Listen to much AM radio at night? hear Rush?
Yes, frequently I do hear Rush in reruns. When it isn’t Rush it’s Michael Savage or Glenn Beck or Laura Ingraham or Gordon Liddy or one of the dozens of other Rush clones preaching the same bilious gospel.
And lets be clear, you are more concerned about what Rush did a decade ago than what Ebert did last year re the Bush girls.
No, chucklehead, I am more concerned about what Rush did and has continued to do day in and day out for much longer than a decade and continues to do up to this very day. Yes, I am more concerned with that than I am with something Roger Ebert said on one occasion. I know, I know, I’m such a hairsplitter!
But, if it makes you feel any better, I’ll say that Roger Ebert shouldn’t say nasty things about the Bush girls. If he did do that, I think he should apologize. What are my chances of getting you to say the same for the crap Rush spews day in day out, year after year after year.
I can sort it out. I don t expect an apology from Ebert. You shouldn t from Rush.
I never said I expeted an apology from Rush, and I don’t expect one from you. What I stand by is that unless you apologize, and util you cease and desist, complaints about how “unciivily” you and your allies are being treated are the height of hypocrisy.
See the diff? The upshot is that I fully expect you to go on being both uncivil and hypocritcal.
Dugger, you seem to be suggesting that there’s no difference between debating an issue and demogoguing one.
During a debate, Gore did, in fact, bring up the Massachusetts prison furlough program. He pointed out that escapees from the furlough program (Willie Horton was not one of these) had committed murders. Gore questioned the wisdom of the program. He didn’t mention Mr. Horton or any other criminal by name. Sounds like a pretty good issue for a debate, no?
The Bush campaign, on the other hand, ran a famous television ad that included a photograph of Mr. Horton. Mr. Bush himself invoked Mr. Horton’s name as a shorthand for “weak-kneed mamby pamby liberal softness on crime (by big ugly black men against the delicate flower of anglo-saxon womanhood, wink, wink)”.
So, in that sense, it’s true that Mr. Gore was the first to “bring up Willie Horton.”
JWG,
I remind you again that all of you conservatives own the racism inherent in the minuteman movement. It is interesting that you failed to disavow any racial animus but to minimize and ignore it, which in my mind is suspect. It is a very revealing omission that is characteristic of an extremist viewpoint that is untenable to me and inimical to American values regarding equality. Moreover, it also is emblematic of a myopic and ignorant view with regard to the economic devastation imposed by globalization for the exclusive benefit of First world nations like the United States.
I remind you again that all of you conservatives own the racism inherent in the minuteman movement.
So by your reasoning, if we look at the usual participants in an anti-war rally or parade we can come to the logical conclusion that anybody against the Iraq war (i.e. anti-war) “owns” anti-semitism and genocide (courtesy of the pro-Palestinian “push the Israelis into the Sea” crowd) as well as communism and anarchy (courtesy of those fine representatives).
It is interesting that you failed to disavow any racial animus but to minimize and ignore it, which in my mind is suspect.
So describing racist participants in the Minuteman Project as, well, “racist”, and pointing out that racist support for a cause does not make the cause racist is minimizing and ignoring the racism.
it also is emblematic of a myopic and ignorant view with regard to the economic devastation imposed by globalization for the exclusive benefit of First world nations like the United States.
So for those of us you label “myopic and ignorant”, maybe you can enlighten us as to how a statement like “economic devastation imposed by globalization for the exclusive benefit of First world nations like the United States” applies in any way to the topic under discussion (i.e. the Minuteman Project, illegal immigration, etc.).
Trevor tells me,
You don’t read very well. I’ll redirect you to my reply to your original comment in which I wrote
They have reading programs to help you increase your comprehension skills.
As far as your other incorrect accusations about me, stick them up your ass.
JWG, Vast Right Wing Conspiracy drone
The fact remains that you have consistently minimized throughout your posts the undercurrent of reprehensible bigotry of the minuteman project and other anti-immigration groups that for some “unknown” reason believe that they have a moral duty to stop the illegal immigration of poor colored folks into their “white” nation. It is truly funny that those of you so appalled by the darkening of this country completely ignore the reason increasing numbers of Latin Americans are immigrating illegally in the first place: Globalization, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc. which has completely destroyed the economies in their home countries.
From Global Exchange: “According to the National Labor Committee, a worker in El Salvador earns about 24 cents for each NBA jersey she makes. These same jerseys then sell in the U.S. for $140 each. The
60 cents an hour the Salvadoran NBA seamstresses earn covers only about a third of the cost of living, and even the Salvadoran government says this wage leaves a worker in abject poverty. In poorer countries such as the Dominican Republic and Nicaragua, the wages are even lower.”
“By exploiting workers in sweatshops, corporations drive down working conditions for all workers and prevent countries from pursuing a real model of development. When corporations pressure countries to keep wages low, ignore domestic labor laws, violate international environmental codes, bust unions, and drive down working conditions globally, they are no longer taking advantage of poor working conditions they are creating and perpetuating them.”
Increased illegal immigration and the destruction of the manufacturing base in the United States causing the loss of thousands of good-paying manufacturing jobs to disappear into the black hole of capitalist greed is what the crypto-fascist policies of the GOP engender.
Blaming the victims of sweatshop labor and corporate greed for their plight solves nothing and makes, you all look like the simplistic xenophobes that you all are proud of being. When you can learn to live and provide for your family on less than $5 bucks a day then you can lecture me on my reading skills and political philosophy. Until then, I shall gleefully point out the insanity and bias in your positions.
As an afterthought, I think the real animus I detect is a realization that one day you and your adherents will be vastly outnumbered and consigned to the irrelevance you so richly deserve. I look forward to the day when you lay in your own excrement in a nursing home and realize that Guadalupe, the woman who is underpaid to look after you is a human being deserving of your respect.
trevorwells,
What “undercurrent of reprehensible bigotry” are you talking about? Regardless of whether racist skinhead idiots are drawn to it, it doesn’t make the basic idea of the Minuteman Project racist, which is calling attention to the lax border security and the federal government’s failure to uphold existing immigration law. This is no more racist than the pro-Palestinian groups drawn to Antiwar marches makes the march participants supporters of anti-semitism and genocide.
And by the way, it’s anti-illegal immigration. I am a full supporter of legal immigration. And personally, I’m not appalled at all by “the darkening of this country” as you put it. As long as the immigration is legal, I’m all for it, regardless of the skin tone.
Regarding your claim that it’s Globalization, NAFTA, CAFTA, etc that have “completely destroyed the economies in their home countries”, where is your data to back up this assertion? I would expect that the corruption and failed economic policies that were in place long before Globalization and NAFTA have contributed far more to poverty throughout Latin America. By the way, globalization has been going on since the 90’s, while NAFTA was pushed through in 1995 on the Democrats’ watch. Where is your scorn for the Left?
Regarding your diatribe about corporations, when I become one I’ll get back to you and you can criticize me to your heart’s content.
Increased illegal immigration and the destruction of the manufacturing base in the United States causing the loss of thousands of good-paying manufacturing jobs to disappear into the black hole of capitalist greed is what the crypto-fascist policies of the GOP engender.
What does increased illegal immigration (which you appear to agree is a BAD thing) have to do with the transition from manufacturing to service industries that has been ongoing in this country for the last decade? Do you think that people coming illegally to the US to get jobs that have already been offloaded to their home countries? And can you elaborate on what the “crypto-fascist policies of the GOP” are? I apparently didn’t get that particular memo from the VRWC.
When you can learn to live and provide for your family on less than $5 bucks a day then you can lecture me on my reading skills and political philosophy. Until then, I shall gleefully point out the insanity and bias in your positions.
From the high moral tone taken here, I can only assume that you personally have mastered the “provide for your family on less than $5 bucks a day” skill that you demand others learn before daring to criticize YOU. But how do you afford internet access and still feed your family?
Please enlighten us as to what steps you personally have taken to prevent the exploitation of third world workers that you claim all of us conservatives are guilty of perpetrating? What is your seeming absolute moral authority based on? Until then, I shall gleefully point out the insanity and hypocrisy in your postings.
I look forward to the day when you lay in your own excrement in a nursing home
Well that’s awfully charitable of you! At least you didn’t say “dead in a ditch somewhere”. So tell me, while I’m lying there in my own feces, futilely pressing the nurse ‘call’ button, where will you be? Presiding over the utopia that will be realized just as soon as we can brush all those evil red-staters out of the way?
Quaker,
I said much earlier that Gore intiated, Atwater expanded. Now if you define the Willie Horton issue as only one in terms of race , then you and your amigos are at least partially correct in that Atwater used a picture which was a true picture. If the issue was more than race, but the irresponsible release of murderous felons, then I was right – Gore started it. My problem or your problem is that I don’t now and never have accepted the racial-only construct of the Horton issue. I think for most people the mesage would be that under this program a dangerous felon could be out in your neighborhood and do you harm. And that harm would feel just as bad regardless of the ethnicity of the felon.
Dugger
Then, once again, you’re ignoring the difference between debating and demagoguing an issue.
[...] who aren t in the majority race are certainly not like THE REST OF US!!! The connection between the Minutemen and David Duke don t seem quite so stretched [...]