Martin Luther King:
I have the audacity to believe that people everywhere can have three meals a day for their tired bodies, education and culture for their spirits. I believe that what self-centered men have torn down, men other-centered can build up. I still believe that one day mankind will bow before the altars of God and be crowned triumphant over war and bloodshed, and non-violent redemptive goodwill will proclaim the rule of the land ‘and the lion and the lamb shall lie down together and every man shall sit under his own vine and fig tree and none shall be afraid.’ I still believe that we shall overcome.
Sounds like a liberal to me. Sounds like someone who was against war, and for helping the poor. Dr. King was a liberal fighting the conservative forces of hate and intolerance. The right gets J. Edgar Hoover, Bull Connor, and other right wingers who sought to stop Martin Luther King. Dr. King fought for the American dream, he didn’t stand for the nightmare that was the conservative status quo.
Ian,
He’s not so much a racist as he is a political bigot. If it’s Conservative, he automatically hates it.
Sounds like the definition of prejudice to me.
Who said anything about white people except you, Ian? Lots of good white people stood arm-in-arm with Dr. King. They were liberals too, including at the time Charlton Heston. I think it’s funny that a member of the movement with racism at its base (conservatism) can keep calling me racist without any facts to back him up.
Dr. King would find Bush’s tokens amusing at best, most likely sad.
Don’t forget Robert Byrd…..
What would MLK think of today’s republicans?
A black sect. of state (the second in a row by the way), a hispanic Attorney General , ditto Dept of Commerce. A black Sect of HUD.
Perhaps more importantly do you think that the leftists push for minority set-asides and affirmative action is in agreement with Dr. Kings
“…. dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”
Me either….only the republicans are demanding that people be judged by their character.
The democrats still believe that people of color (well, only CERTAIN colors) can’t compete on an even playing field….
To quote george orwell “All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others….”
Perhaps that would be another good t-shirt slogan for the democrats…
They taught my four year old nephew about Martin Luther King Day in his pre-school this week. He told me that “Martin King ended all the silly rules.” I asked him what silly rules and he said, “People couldn’t sit on the front of a bus or drink from fountains.” My eyes started watering. All the violence and sacrifice and struggle was to end what were really a bunch of silly rules. I could just imagine all these racists of the period forced to hear their whole way of life, their whole world view dismissed so readily and easily by a child of today as just a bunch of “silly rules.” That’s quite a dream Dr. King had.
Oliver, people like you destroy the King legacy. You find someway to politicize everything, and I mean everything. You ignore the fact that Robert Byrd was once a member of the KKK and stay holds the word ‘nigger’ in his vocabulary today.
What about George Wallace? Ross Barnett? David Duke?
Why don’t you mention great civil rights crusaders like James Meredith?
Oh that’s right, it wouldn’t fit your point that big bad old whitey hates blacks. If anyone is the racist here, it’s you Oliver.
Winner of the Nobel Peace Prize,organized and led marches for black’s right to
vote,desegregation,LABOR RIGHTS,among others. One quote before I leave on King’s speech I have a dream;
“I have a dream one day,that one day down in Alabama,with its vicious racists,with its GOVERNOR having his lips dripping with the words of “interposition” and “nullification”–one day right there in Alabama little black boys and black girls will be able to join hands with little white boys and white girls as sisters and brothers.”
One of the greatest believers in liberty and equality of our age and of many ages who come after ours,we need more like Dr.King who will stand up for liberty and not follow the status quo. It seems daily in the news that liberty is taking a beating and a lot of Americans follow blindly like sheep to slaughter.
Peaceful, non-violent, non-cooperation was the strategy of Mohandas
Gandhi. It was the strategy of MLK in imitation of that successful
revolution that brought results. Do we remember those who advocated
violence as a means of changing the status quo? Yes, but we
remember that approach as one that yielded poor to no results, and
we certainly do not memorialize them.
Yes, the modern Republican party is all about the content of your character… as long as you have the right last name, went to the right schools…
Whuh?
A hundred and forty years ago?
All those guys are gone now, peedro. Today’s Republican party stands for something different.
Oliver, King would be rolling over in his grave if read your entry. You are doing exactly what he was against. Given your past, I brought up the white part. However, the fact remains that you can’t point fingers at conservatives because there are 4 Democrats pointing right back at you.
Brandon, that is true, however O’Dub doesn’t observe racist Democrats.
“You want equality, vote Republican.”
Yeah, that’s always worked in the past. It’s just that republicans
think some are more equal than others.
“I am sure YOU are for judging people by character not color, right?”
Indeed I am Pedro. You’re an idiot.
drpedro, you don’t get it do you, their traitors to their race, that’s why Oliver hates them! It’s really simple. If they’re black and they’re Republican, there is something wrong with that and we can’t let that happen, now can we.
If anyone treats blacks as tokens, it’s Democrats. They are the people who say “hey we have to have a minority in order to make it look like we care about non-white folks” and then when they do it, they just laugh it off. http://www.preventtruthdecay.com/mainmiscfuneral.htm
Quaker, you don’t get it, the blacks are too dumb to make up their own minds. They’re stupid and get fooled by the Democrats into voting for them. And Republicans aren’t racist at all.
The modern conservative movement is the ONLY political movement in this country that embraces equality.
All the rest believe that all the “minorities” need a little extra help cause they can’t quite “keep up”.
You want equality, vote Republican.
You want lip service to equality, vote for anyone else.
I see.
That would explain why black voters tend to vote so heavily in their favor, wouldn’t it?
Let’s set race aside here and acknowledge that Colin Powell was brought into the Bush administration to put a veneer of respectability on foreign policy and defense teams made up of bat-shit crazy people. Powell left and now all the bat-shit crazy people are in charge.
If it s Conservative, he automatically hates it.
There are a few conservatives who don’t embrace racism in one form or another, but they’re in the minority within their movement. I will never support a movement that has hate at its core.
Not really Quaker, they still stand for equality, you know, judging people by their character, not the color of their skin.
I am sure YOU are for judging people by character not color, right?
Obviously not.
Alex, I’ll take Affirmative Action for $200.
In the ’60s, the two parties came to a crossroads. The Southern Democrats decided to embrace the segregationist message, and could find no home in the Democratic party – the party which took up the mantle of racial equality. The Republican party abandoned the legacy of Lincoln and instead adopted the racist southern strategy, and ended up losing the black vote in the process.
Which is why I noted conservative and liberal vs Democrat and Republican (this is the trick the right uses to ignore the conservative movement’s racism). Goldwater, etc. drove out the moderate and liberal Republicans, and they became Dems largely.
Shoot. Good snark goes stale quickly if you don’t serve it up right.
Fool. You can fool all of the people…etc.
Yea OW whitey is keeping the black man down…
Race baiter’s like you and Jesse ARE in fact why blacks vote for democrats. It was summed up nicely by Tom Wolfe in a short story called “Mau-mau’ing the Flak Catchers”, you should read it.
Of course black america just brushes off the Condoleeza’s and Colin’s view oof america, cause you know, they are just uncle tom’s.
Maybe if the democrats would stop TREATING different races differently, people would start ignoring race?
Thats what us conservatives would like to see.
But right now, it ain’t happening. A white kid with a 3.5 GPA will lose out to a black kid with a 3.0 GPA trying to get into med school. But that is the sort of equality that democrats like.
You see, fellas, when you say nonsense like “the playing field is equal” when that doesn’t jibe with the reality black people are living every day — is why you lose that part of the vote.
Conservatives love the illusion of the level playing field because it allows them to rationalize all sorts of policies that, if enacted in the real world, would actually make life harder for the most disenfranchised and discriminated against in this society.
How do they argue against forcing WalMart to provide health care for their employees? Assume that there is a level playing field on which unskilled workers have the luxury to pick and choice whatever job they want. How do they argue against affirmative action? Simply assume that there’s a level playing field for blacks and whites in this country where everyone has access to the same educational opportunities from birth.
The level playing field is a rhetorical illusion trotted out by conservatives to ensure that just such a thing never comes about in reality.
At the core of conservativism is the support for an originalist interpretation of the Consitution. At the time of its deciding and long after, originalists were opposed to Brown V Board of education and the series of court decisions that followed from it. Then as now, with the gay marriage debate, Conservatives would leave a whole class of people disenfranchised and discriminated against in this country to satisfy their reactionary, elitist philosophy.
I see. You can all of the people all of the time–if they’re black?
Party of Lincoln, indeed.
Nobody said anything about “whitey”. Rice and to a lesser extent Powell help those who make life harder for black americans and poor and middle class people of all races. Its up to their maker whether they’re “Uncle Toms” (your words) or not, but they’re certainly not helping. And your nonsense about white kids with 3.5 gpas being turned away would be news to the medical schools of America who graduate thousands of white doctors every year. But that would be because like most conservatives, you can’t help but to lie.
LOL! That is the most pie in the sky prostelizing I have heard in awhile. I personally do not believe that because a person is black and a republican, that you are an uncle tom, but alas actions speak louder than words.
Pedro, now who is demeaning blacks(”Race baiter s like you and Jesse ARE in fact why blacks vote for democrats.”)? It must be easy to believe that the playing field is leveled, but reality could not be farther from the truth. Equality can be attained without demeaning the abilities of minorities. Republicans don’t really want a level playing field, just a means to weed out the poor and different. Remember, its not Fascism when we do it!:)
“The democrats still believe that people of color (well, only CERTAIN colors) can t compete on an even playing field”
Correct, Dr. Pedro, that is what is called “the soft bigotry of low expectations”.
And yet, even soft bigotry is still bigotry. And it still damages the person who isn’t expected to do as well as someone else.
The folks on the left who think affirmative action is necessary are bigots, plain and simple. In their minds all black people (except for the Uncle Tom’s and Aunt Thomasina’s) need freebies to stay equal to whitey. Same with the hispanics. But asians, nope, they don’t need any help. And of course, there is no reason to help a white person get into college or get a job.
What is so wrong with just treating everyone the same as the person standing next to them? If you’re a Democrat, it’s because you can’t play one off against the other, all the while sewing the seeds of anger and dissent and getting the angry person’s vote.
Ian and pedro are the keepers of the silly rules.
The modern conservative movement is the ONLY political movement in this country that embraces equality. drpedro
You spelled “Communist” wrong.
“The modern conservative movement is the ONLY political movement in this country that embraces equality.” drpedro
This is one of the most absurd statements I’ve ever seen on this site. Tell that one to all the gays in this country, who conservatives are doing their best to make 2nd class citizens. Your “originalist interpretation of the Constitution” must include allowing religious dogma to discriminate against a marginalized group of Americans. What a joke!
Oliver,
I think you went too far in saying that the Republican Party/The Right is based in hate and is against the philosophies of Dr. King. Sweeping generalizations are key to losing arguments.
The point is, why should the black kid with a 3.0 get more opportunity than the poor white kid.
Here is a real life example. At my college, one of my classmates who was also pre-med was from a very wealthy family in a very wealthy california neighborhood. His grades weren’t great, but he was black. His 3.0 got him a full ride at an Ivy League med school. Yet some poor kid with his grades (or better) didn’t get that ride. He and his family could easily pay for it. How is that fair? How is that not racist?
By the way Jade, there are no band or sports scholarships in Med school….
You guys have a BIG problem with consistency.
OK OW, who is keeping the black man down and making the playing field “unlevel” then?
You leftist like to talk around the specifics, let people read between the lines.
I applied to med school OW, it is absolutely the case that white kids with 3.5 don’t get in and blacks with a 3.0 do. It is because they ask you to put your ethnicity on your application and because of affirmative action.
What exactly do you think affirmative action does? It lowers the bar so chosen races and groups don’t have to meet the same standards as everyone else….an inherently bigoted philosophy.
But yea, I can see how condi and colin aren’t “helping” black folks. I mean, who could possibly look up to someone who was a provost at stanford, or who rose to the highest rank in the US Army? I mean heck, those two don’t even have their own branded tennis shoes!
What exactly do you think affirmative action does? It lowers the bar so chosen races and groups don t have to meet the same standards as everyone else& .an inherently bigoted philosophy.
Whatta maroon.
Pedro obviously confuses opportunity with outcome. No, Pedro, when you get accepted to medical school, you still have to pass all the tests. They don’t hand you a diploma and shingle on day one.
And I can guarantee you some of those white kids don’t have 3.5 or 3.0 GPAs–they get accepted because mommy or daddy went there and threw a few bucks the school’s way. Some of those white kids got into med schools because they played sports or played in the band or ran a business.
You cite Colin Powell. Well, ol’ Colin admits AA helped him–was the bar set low for Colin Powell?
Wow, there are so many misconceptions about affirmative action. It is a complete myth that people with lesser grades get picked over those with better grades. That is complete lie. If it were even remotely true, I’d be a cop right now.
[...] “http://sayanythingblog.com/”>
Rob
on January 15, 2006 at 9:55 pm
Oliver Willis: Dr. King was a liberal fighting the conservative forces of h [...]
Oliver, you really come off like a major jackass when you write crap like this. But apparently your ego gets stroked when you do it because it elicits a bunch of responses.
People, when Oliver starts putting the conservative political philosophy together with Bull Connor, he’s doing nothing but mentally masturbating. By actually trying to refute such drivel only heightens his mental orgasm.
Guess what? Ivy League schools reject the majority of applicants. It is called selective admission. There are other criteria college admissions boards look at other than grades. What was that student’s job experience? Did he work as an EMT while in college? What about the courses he took? Did he take more anatomy and physiology classes (assuming he was a biology major) or botany classes? If you were on med school admissions committee, would accept someone who took botany classes over the biology student who took anatomy and physiology classes? What were his test scores? Was he able to do some postgraduate study? How many recommendation letters did he get?
Shorter drpedro, the only things admissions committees look at is grades and race. Nothing else matters in drpedro’s world.
“The GPA of minority applicants is almost always lower than non-minority.”
Dr. Pedro. Not a bigot. Not an idiot.
How about this proposition, Oliver?
The Right and the Left don’t get Dr. Martin Luther King. He’s an American hero – to all Americans.
I’ll echo Ian’s sentiment that there are some things that you make political which just shouldn’t be. But hey… keep up the hyperpartisanship.
Wrong, and wrong. If you want to pretend this game doesn’t include race, why are you fighting for affirmative action?
No one wants to come right and say they are bigots, I understand that. Buy don’t give me this crap about he might have been an EMT etc. The GPA of minority applicants is almost always lower than non-minority, this is not usually true at the number one schools however.
You may be a bigot in an attempt to help someone achieve something they might not have otherwise, but you are removing an opportunity from someone else in the process, and you are still a bigot.
And then, imagine going through life wondering if you made it on your merits or your skin color. That will really whittle away at your self-esteem eh?
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions……
In any case, race-based affirmative action is racist, by definition
“Because it s those who talk the loudest. Those who shout from the mountaintops how much they care that couldn t be bothered once nobody is looking.”
Which is not, of course, the reason why you brought it up so loudly …
With regard to helping the poor, I’m willing to bet money that I donated more to charities this past year than you did. I have the paperwork to back it up. And contrary to the stereotype, I’m not one of this “rich Republicans.” I made about $54K this past year. That’s before taxes. And I’m raising a family of 4 with a stay at home Mom.
How much did you contribute to charities Oliver? Or are you like so many other liberals I know? You talk tough about “helping the poor” but your “help” is limited to saying things like, “Stop cutting taxes for the rich!” When it comes to actually opening your wallets the tough talk goes away.
You see, the problem with people like you is this: You think your words make you a better person. You prattle on about “the poor”, yet you don’t really do anything about it. In your view, as long as you’re telling everybody how much you care, then it must be true.
Like I said, I’m willing to put my contributions towards helping the poor up against yours any day of the week. Why? Because it’s those who talk the loudest. Those who shout from the mountaintops how much they “care” that couldn’t be bothered once nobody is looking.
So you go ahead and tell some poor person that you helped them out by voting for John Kerry. I’m sure they’ll be thrilled.
Here is a little data to back me up. I expect you leftists to continue dancing around the issue though…..
http://home.sandiego.edu/~e_cook/analysis/RaceTriplesYourChances.html
If you check a box saying you are black or hispanic you triple your chances for admission to UC med schools….even though those applicants have lower MCATS and GPA’s….
drpedro, not everyone gets what they want in life. The top schools reject the majority of people that apply. I didn’t get into my first choice of college when I was in high school. Did I whine and cry and blame it on affirmative action or discrimination? NO. Was there the possibility that someone “less” qualified could have been admitted instead of me? Yes. But you know what? I moved on and went to my second choice college. I still have a college degree that enabled me to get a well paying job. If that makes me a bigot, then you are entitled to your prejudiced view of life.
Pedro: Quit being stupid. Really.
Yes, there are no sports or extra-curricular activities in med school. But wasn’t the subject admission to med school?
And the fact is folks gain admission to med school for a whole host of reasons that extend far past GPAs or MSATs; they get accepted because their parents were alumni, they played sports, they ran a business, they were head of the student council, etc.
And let’s try to remember opportunity does not equal outcome. If med schools are churning out unqualified or poor MDs–that med school’s reputation will suffer. Yet, the most desirable med schools have very active commitments to AA.
peedro’s all about equality.
Jay Caruso might be right.
We really shouldn’t compare today’s GOP to Bull Connor. After all, all Connor did was turn some dogs and firehoses on some civil rights demonstrators.
Today’s GOP is much worse.
“republicans have been fighting racial preferences for quite a while now.”
But not out of some great concern for equality but to maintain a cultural/racial status quo.
Phinky my point isn’t that you get into your first choice school. It is that discrimination based on a persons race is wrong, whether it is “positive” discrimination or negative.
Everyone has nicely danced around having to present an argument for your racial bigotry, and I don’t blame you.
I am not looking at outcomes, I am not looking at extracuricular activites, I am not looking at your degree: I am looking at people who use racial preferences for admissions.
Phinky you are a bigot if you support racial preferences, it’s that simple. And republicans have been fighting racial preferences for quite a while now.
says you frame, says you.
Opinions are like assh*les, everyone has one, thanks for sharing a peak at yours….
Lets get back to the point, can we? The point is Oliver is blaming Republicans and conservatives for bringing down the civil rights agenda. You can make all the noise that you want that the Republican party is different today than what it was 50 years ago, but the fact remains many racist Democrats lived in the party 50 years ago — and today. Perfect example, Robert KKK Byrd. Until O’Dub denounces the old bag, then he should speak no further.
I blame conservatives for racism. Conservatives. Get that through your thick skull. Conservatives compromised the southern Democrats and Republicans. Because of race, southern Democrats left the party and went on to hear Ronald Reagan go on about “welfare queens” and see George Bush do lap dances with Willie Horton. I think Republicans have made some advances, but every once in a while the veil slips and theres a Hurricane Katrina behind it.
Your argument about Byrd is a nonsequitor. Byrd has renounced his Klan days and has voted in favor of numerous bits of legislation that help fight bigotry. People like Jesse Helms and Trent Lott never renounce their racist beliefs, and are held up as lions of the GOP.
Pedro’s argument is the most ridiculous, because if you take him for his word, there just aren’t any white doctors in America. A quick visit to a hospital or local doctor’s office quickly sends this distortion of history to the dustbin where it belongs. I may not be in favor of affirmative action in its current form, but its a lot better than the conservative shell game of running around thinking that life is just peachy and dandy for minorities and they’ve all got the same opportunities as folks like George Bush… they just aren’t trying “hard enough”.
Jay, I think it’s funny how you post that this post doesn’t matter — and then write three replies to it. I’m not going to get into a pissing match with you over how much you donate to charity (I certainly don’t have the disposable income you do), but I would argue that you sort of negate the value of your honorable givings when you support a president and a movement dedicated to ending the upward mobility of American society.
I wrote this entry because I see conservatives trying to claim Dr. King as either apolitical (he wasn’t) or one of their own (he certainly wasn’t). The conservative people (including southern Democrats and Republicans) in America in the ’50s, ’60s, and ’70s were the ones branding people like MLK as socialist/communist agitators who were unnecesarily rocking the boat. King was as against keeping poor people in their place as he was against Jim Crow, and that’s a vital part of his legacy as a progressive American figure without parallel in our history.
Robert Byrd renounced his membership in the KKK years ago. I don’t remember Robert Byrd remembering the good old days of segregation like Trent Lott did at Strom Thurmond’s birthday party. The next thing you will be saying is Strom Thurmond was a pioneer for civil rights because he fathered a biracial child.
“Whoa, hold on there,” the Republican party says, “That’s enough ‘equality’ already.”
Yes Pedro let’s all share our opinions, especially ones backed up by bullshit “analysis” by total assholes who don’t know shit.
“For more than thirty years, medical schools have made a concerted effort to increase the racial and ethnic diversity of their institutions. Affirmative action has served as a successful mechanism for increasing diversity, enabling large numbers of minority students to enroll in medical school. There is still a great deal of work to be done, however, if medical school classes are to accurately reflect our society. Today 1 in 4 Americans is either Black, Hispanic, or Native American; however in medical school these groups comprise only:
· 1 in 10 medical students,
· 3 in 100 faculty members, and
· 1 in 100 full professors.”
http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/pressrel/2003/030319.htm
And for the record, I am considerably to the right of where Dr. King was, and not remotely worthy of even cleaning the scum off of his shoes.
I m not going to get into a pissing match with you over how much you donate to charity (I certainly don t have the disposable income you do), but I would argue that you sort of negate the value of your honorable givings when you support a president and a movement dedicated to ending the upward mobility of American society.
How does that negate the value of what I do? Do you really think the people who benefit from the charitable giving of others give a rat’s ass who they voted for?
And why is it that you blame conservatives for racism? Racism doesn’t have an ideology. I personally know people (several of my in-laws) who wouldn’t hesitate for a moment to call you a nigger. They use the word all the time. Yet, I also know they voted for John Kerry. Does it bother you less to know people are calling you a nigger simply because they voted the right way? Does voting for the right person negate their bigotry?
I just can’t comprehend how you can hold such a viewpoint. I cannot fathom judging a person’s character by who they vote for. It doesn’t make sense.
So because he says he renounced them, we are supposed to believe it? I don’t care, he said ‘nigger’ on a televised interview, I highly doubt he has renounced it.
Oliver, it is truely sad that you are destroying the King Jr. legacy by hating others. King would be rolling around in his grave if he saw your post. If ever wanted a reason why some people are racist, you would be it.
Meant to say “if you ever …” in last sentence.
Does Oliver include JFK and RFK among those right-wingers who fought to stop Dr King?
The most racist people I know in my sphere of life are all card-carrying Democrats who would vote for a monkey before a Republican. My wife has 2 uncles who are only lacking the white robes. I kicked one of them out of my house many years ago after he began spewing his racist bullshit in front of my (then) young children. But since they always vote Democrat, I’m sure that’s all fine with Oliver and his minions here.
Unlike you Oliver, I don’t equate racist sentiments with people of a different political persuasion. Racism is a product of a sick heart and not of a particular political ideology.
I think you have a rather sick heart son.
Sam;
If the only dems you know are your uncles I would say that is probably
a poor sample as it relates to your “sphere” of life. Try to get out more.
I never cease to be amazed by conservatives who use Dr. King’s legacy as an excuse for their own racism.
Did I say “amazed?” Sorry, I meant “revolted.”
Democracy Now played Dr. King’s 4 April 1967 “Beyond Vietnam” speech this morning, and it’s worth listening to.
As I have walked among the desperate, rejected and angry young men I have told them that Molotov cocktails and rifles would not solve their problems. I have tried to offer them my deepest compassion while maintaining my conviction that social change comes most meaningfully through non-violent action. But they asked, and rightly so, what about Vietnam? They asked if our own nation wasn’t using massive doses of violence to solve its problems, to bring about the changes it wanted. Their questions hit home, and I knew that I could never again raise my voice against the violence of the oppressed in the ghettos without having first spoken clearly to the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today, my own government. For the sake of those boys, for the sake of this government, for the sake of the hundreds of thousands trembling under our violence, I cannot be silent.
Leo,
I’m sorry. Did I suggest that they were the only Dems I know?
Thanks for your concern about me getting out more, but in my line of work I get out plenty.
Yeah, Leo. He didn’t say they were the only Dems he knows, he said they were the most racist people he knows.
Also, he said they were his wife’s uncles, not his.
Other than that, you got everything right.
“How does that negate the value of what I do?”
Because no amount of charitable giving can significantly mitigate the systemic economic disasters caused but the total incompetence and chicanery of a corrupt political party. Think Katrina, think the medicare drug program:
“Since the program began on Jan. 1, many low-income people have left pharmacies empty-handed after being told they would have to pay co-payments of $100, $250 or more.”
It definitely matters to the poor who you vote for.
http://tinyurl.com/9odvu
I never said white weren’t doctors OW, why do you even say something like that.
I said that it is racist to give preferential treatment to people because of the color of their skin, exactly what MLK said.
Frame also needs to understand that we shouldn’t be deciding on who does what job based on societal mixtures. What is the ratio of white people to black in the NBA? Should we have affirmative action to make sure more white guys can play? Why not?
Finally OW assumes minorities aren’t in med school because of racial bias….clearly that is a load of crap.
The main reason is that race baiters like OW and Jesse continue to sell black america a bill of goods by maintaining a culture of victims. The black leaders run around telling black america that people who reach the highest levels of education are “uncle toms”, while promoting people who are preaching racial inequality through set asides and affirmative action.
Life isn’t “peachy and dandy” for ANYONE OW, minorities are no different in this regard. And as long as minorities demand to be set aside as somehow different from the rest of us, that is likely to be how they are going to be treated. I am sorry that your party is the party of racism and inequality, but you have a choice.
Only the republicans believe in true equality.
It’s funny how everytime specific examples are given, you Dems have an answer for it … it’s like you have talking points or something ..
Happy Martin Luther King, Jr. Day
Today is a time to reflect on the legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. For some, this means celebrating his most famous speech and the fact that this American hero challenged the status quo in the South. For others, it’s an opportunity to try and sc…
“What is the ratio of white people to black in the NBA? Should we have affirmative action to make sure more white guys can play? Why not?”
Just keep embarrassing yourself Pedro.
Still haven’t seen ONE of you lefty democrats defend race-based affirmative action…
So where are all your facts OW. So far we just have your opinion that conservatives are the cause of racism, something Ian has pointed out is ridiculous. Except of course in Olivers World, where he can change the definition of conservative to mean racist.
The lefties can’t quite get it through their thick craniums that words have actual meanings, not just what your “opinion” of the meaning is.
So what is it? Do we judge people by the quality of their character, or the color of their skin? If you believe that, how can you support the racist policies of the Democratic party?
You’re right Oliver, politics did have something to do with it. Because it was Democrats and Republicans who were racist. I already named several of them in my first post. Get over it Oliver, you’re wrong. This isn’t a black and white picture, there are some gray areas.
Actually, if you read the decision in Plessy v Ferguson, you would see an activist court instead of an originalist reading of the Constitutional issues, creating out of whole cloth, the term “separate but equal.” If you can point to where that’s written in the Constitution, I’ll buy you dinner.
Here are some excerpts from the majority opinion which are consistent with a Living/Breathing context:
This is the opinion of the justice, not rooted in any historical texts.
Here, the majority recognizes that laws forbidding interracial marriage are”technically” in violation of the Consitution… but they sweep that aside in order to arrive at their intended result.
Compare the previous excerpt with this from the dissent:
Much more in line with originalist intent…
***
Oliver – Let’s just say that MLK was a great American and leave it at that. There’s no need to turn the celebration of his birthday into a partisan political issue.
While you have a simplistic view of many things (Republicans are evil), I don’t think you can take ownership of King, who would be appalled at the black leadership of today (which you excoriate yourself) and appalled at the stranglehold that the teacher’s unions have on the ability of poor, disenfranchised children to improve their prospects. Yes, MLK believed in pulling yourself up by your bootstraps, but he also believed in making sure that people had the boots in the first place. Forcing students to stay in underperforming schools because of their zip code and income level and the soft bigotry of low expectations is not something that Dr. King would support. Nor do many parents of those students…
Or we know your bullshit is easily refuted by facts. It’s called research, kids.
And yes, I would include RFK and JFK’s soft-pedaling of helping MLK as an effect of conservativism. They certainly weren’t being brave enough to confront the southern Democrats within their own party. I think it’s amusing how you guys keep trying to say that politics had nothing to do with the civil rights movements when it was all about politics. Many elements of the modern conservative movement look to the ’50s as the sort of utopia America should work towards, and its their blindness to the savage racism that prevailed in America during that era that proves to many of us that they just don’t get it.
Sounds like most 60’s preachers to me, until such words became so politically charged; by the left, ironically — those who now scream for “separation of Church and state.” But I digress.
We have seen 40 years of “(Fill in the Blanks) Rights ______ Legislation” designed to eradicate racism, which Oliver and others bemoan has yet to occur. So, whether the Republicans or the Democrats can take credit for of any of that so – called “progress” is irrevelant. In the minds of most of our (left – wing, natch) commenters, it’s the fault of the Republicans / conservatives.
I would begin to suspect that the strategy is faulty. If America is indeed a “racist country”, and I sincerely believe it is not, the that points to the notion that the legislation.
Consider the legislative pattern:
A law is passed — of course, it’s meaning is not clear.
Lawsuits bloom like daisies.
People arrive at some general points of view:
It doesn’t matter to me, because
a) I’m not a racist, anyway
b) I’m not in a situation (work, school, etc.) where racism is an issue
I might have some racist tendencies (I’d rather not hire them, I’d rather not let them rent in my building, I’d rather not let them in my classes, [if I have something to say about it]), but the law is the law
“I don’t want anything to do with ‘em, and I’m not going to have anything to do with ‘em” (this can apply to any race with any other race).
Life goes on, with little change.
Can “assistance” (read ‘interference’) from the government engender dependency, in its recipients, thus negatively affecting ambition?
I believe it does.
What can be done about it? I don’t know.
Can “Civil Rights” legislation often enrage whites?
I believe it does.
What can be done about it? I don’t know.
What solution do I foresee for the “racism” problem?
I foresee that, within three generations (no more than 90 years), you will be unable to spot a “pure – raced” individual, unless you are a trained scientific observer.
The average person won’t be able to tell one race from another by then. It will be impossible to discriminate between them, once there physical characteristics are almost the same.
Look at this picture:
http://tinyurl.com/9kqz2
Imagine Lisa Fujinaga (l) marries a Hispanic.
Imagine Cindy McMillan (r ) does the same.
Like say one of these guys
http://www.thespanishyellowpages.com/images/men-16.jpg
Imagine what their children will look like? (Say, 20 years from now?)
Now, what if their children marry white people? (About 50 years for now?)
What do you think there children will look like
Thus endeth the lesson for today.
You just don’t get it Pedro. Affirmative action isn’t based on promoting one race over another simply based on race. That’s how Republicans characterize because they are resistant to change and progess. Affirmative action is founded on the idea that people of color have as much to offer society as anyone else but have been excluded from doing so BECAUSE of their race. It affirms the character of qualified candidates which has long been and continues to be denied because of racial discrimination.
That’s a rather simplistic way of characterizing the GOP’s stance on the issue. A fairer way to characterize it would be that the GOP does not think that the color of one’s skin should be involved in the process at all. While this may have a negative result, the GOP is focused on the fairness of the process – and I would submit would support lawsuits that focused on actual discrimination (eg a less qualified candidate was selected over a more qualified candidate that was a minority).
And if you want to talk about resistant to change, I’ve got a litany of instances where the Left is standing athwart history, shouting “Stop!”
Yes, this is the intent. However, in practice it often devolves into number crunching and focusing on race. Much of the language in Plessy v Ferguson regarding the plaintiff being 1/8th black b/c he had 1/8th black blood is similar to the debates today over what constitutes being a part of a minority. In order to meet the results (and measure our progress) of Affirmative Action, each individual must be categorized…. many think this is counter-productive and silly given the number of people in our country with multi-ethnic / multi-racial backgrounds. Dave Chappelle made fun of this very effort to categorize people, although perhaps you didn’t get the joke.
To characterize such sentiment as being “resistant to change and progress” is not a very thoughtful position. Such categorization in today’s modern society is ridiculous – and counter to Dr. King’s dream.
Since the program began on Jan. 1, many low-income people have left pharmacies empty-handed after being told they would have to pay co-payments of $100, $250 or more
Just because you put it in quotes, doesn’t make it so. I know people on Medicaid (myself) and people on Medicare (my wife) who are well tuned in to both assistance systems.
Co – payments are running between $1 and $5. Period.
“Co – payments” such as mentioned in the NY Times story were either explained incorrectly by Pharmacists — happens often; or misunderstood by customers — that happens, too.
Those kinds of expensive prices refer to specific, non – generic prescriptions, with no substitutions allowed.
It only matters to the Democrats that poor people remain convinced that Democrats are their last, best hope. It’s now up to the Democrats to figure out how to give all their special interest dependents whatever they want, without raising taxes on the people who will never vote for them — the upper middle and upper class.
Exactly Frank, and I suspect the same for minorities. If the democrats don’t have a rallying cry of “racist republicans” who are they going to fight against?
The lefties here keep posting that there is all this racism going on, well, prove it.
And I am sorry that we are causing you limosine liberals to have to carefully examine the world views that you receive in your little echo chambers. It is tough when someone questions your “faith” using logic and fact. It is so much nicer when you can repeat your Soros talking points to other true believers who just nod sagely and smile at your wisdom.
And I await the justification for not “judging a person based on their character, not the color of their skin…”
Because no amount of charitable giving can significantly mitigate the systemic economic disasters caused but the total incompetence and chicanery of a corrupt political party.
You answered a question I did not ask. I asked, “How does that negate the value of what I do?” I didn’t ask why my actions don’t put the GOP into a better light.
Oliver is judging me as a person, not by what I do or who I am, but rather who I vote for. Now, I brought up the fact that several people I know (in-laws of mine) are racists. They’re not of the KKK variety, but they have no problem with blaming ‘niggers’ for all the problems in society. Yet, they all voted for John Kerry. I purposely avoid political discussions at their house because it turns into a free-for-all.
But using Oliver’s logic, he judges them in a better light than me because they supported the right party and candidate. I’m just wondering how anybody can judge another person using that philosophy.
It definitely matters to the poor who you vote for.
We weren’t talking about the poor. Many people who are not poor, benefit from charitable giving. My church helped a few families affected by Hurricane Katrina. They weren’t all poor, but they had lost almost everything because of Katrina. When our church members stepped up to help them, they didn’t ask us who we voted for (though I am certain most members supported Bush). I’m sure it didn’t matter to them.
So, I’d just like an explanation for all of that. Justify it for me. It’s a simple request.
“Just because you put it in quotes, doesn t make it so. ”
“The lefties here keep posting that there is all this racism going on, well, prove it.”
Frank and Pedro, what a braintrust you two guys are. Seriously, you’re both just too stupid to even bother with.
I get it, you believe people should be judged by the color of their skin.
I don’t care what great idea it is based on, it is wrong in this day and age.
Racial discrimination is currently illegal in this country, so excluding equally qualified candidates is punishable by law. I challenge you to show me any significant discrimination in this country that demonstrates equally qualified minorities being excluded. I can however, and have , demonstrated numerous incidences where MORE qualified non “minority” candidates have been excluded in order to alow less qualified minorities in.
Affirmative action is a form of discrimination that is based on race. As the med school data proves, the system allows less qualified applicants in based on the color of their skin….this is called rascism.
So, do we judge people by the quality of their character, or the color of their skin? Want to pick a side? WWMLK do?
We still have Affirmative Action because there is still racism in this country. Duh. It might have it’s flaws, but at least it’s trying to address a real problem that other nations to this day refuse to acknowledge.
One of the reasons France had riots recently was that they refused to acknowledge race as an issue. As a result, minorities were under the government radar, and were being flagranty discriminated against. One way America still holds a degree of moral superiority is that yes, it does recognize race as an issue and tries dealing with it, however haphazard and slipshod the methods may be. People that rant about the politicization of the issue clearly have either no grasp of the actual situation or are just bigots in disguise or denial.
And now what I’D like to know is where you guys get all this time to troll Oliver’s little corner of the web. Seriously. You post here more than he does? Why? What’s the point? Don’t you have better things to do during your day?
Still cant justify your racist behavior and judging people by the color of their skin…
Can’t blame you…
Like I said, too stupid to talk to.
Stupidity can be reasoned with. The second we stop trying, we lose this war that we’re embroiled in. Just because I happen to agree with the ‘Braintrust’ up there doesn’t make it any different.
The second you surrender, for any reason, the other opinion wins. Oh, and please get more ammo than the words “Stupid, racist, etc.” It’s getting old, and my right-wing hide is tougher than that.
Well, frameone called me stupid.
I guess that proves … something
Next time, frameone, respond to my entire comment, and you may come off looking smarter than a can of tennis balls.
“just because you put it in print doesn’t make it so.”
I guess since Frank isn’t having issues with it, it must be mere
falsehood.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/16/politics/16drug.html?hp&ex=1137474000&en=f9353ff31dd315be&ei=5094&partner=homepage
The vast majority of the time, the proponents of affirmative action argue that it’s to help the poor black kid who didn’t have as many advantages as the rich white kid achieve a level playing field. But what about a black kid from a middle class or even rich family (they do exist, and not just on South Park) vs. a poor white kid (yes, they exist too)? Under affirmative action, wouldn’t the black kid still get preference? Does that seem fair?
Why not take race out of the picture entirely and limit affirmative action to a person’s financial background? That way, a person from a disadvantaged background (black or white) gets a leg up on someone (black or white) who has had more opportunities.
What I can never understand is how any liberals honestly think we are ever going to achieve a truly colorblind society as long as they continue to say that people should be treated differently based on their race.
Is there some facet of your argument that I am missing?
%#^$$#&&%(_+*(&%^&^ moderation
VRWC hits it out of the park….that is EXACTLY the sort of “affirmative action”this country should be participating in…..
Prepare for deafening silence from the leftists interspersed with small exclaimations about being the “stupidist…..”
LOL
In 1964 that may have been true, it is now 50 years later, and I see NO evidence of systemic racial bias, except against non-privaleged minorities like caucasions and asians. More importantly, if they can be demonstrated, they can also be prosecuted!
I await, as always, some shred of evidence to back your argument, while I have given you PAGES backing mine. Blacks and hispanics are granted entrance to med school at TWICE the expected rate, while demonstrated LOWER GPA’s and MCAT scores.
Why doesn’t Frameone think “minorities” can handle head-to-head competition against non-”minorities”? Does he think they aren’t smart enough? Why IS he and the democratic party so racist?
Enquiring minds want to know….
More from the same article:
“In King’s teachings, affirmative action approaches were not “reverse discrimination” or “racial preference.” King promoted affirmative action not as preference for race over race (or gender over gender), but as a preference for inclusion, for equal oportunity, for real democracy. Nor was King’s integration punitive: For him, integration benefited all Americans, male and female, white and non-white alike. And contrary to Gingrich, King insisted that, along with individual efforts, collective problems require collective solutions.”
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1292
frameone, don’t talk to yourself like that!
More quotes from MLK:
On “Preferences”
Reporter: “Do you feel it’s fair to request a multi-billion dollar program of preferential treatment for the Negro, or any other minority?”
Dr. King: “I do indeed…Within common law, we have ample precedents for special compensatory programs. … America adopted a policy of special treatment for her millions of veterans…They could negotiate loans from banks to launch businesses. They could receive special points to place them ahead in competition for civil service jobs…There was no appreciable resentment of the preferential treatment being given to the special group.” — (Interview,1965, p.367)
“Something positive must be done… In 1863 the Negro was told that he was free as a result of the Emancipation Proclamation. But he was not given any land to make that freedom meaningful. And the irony of it all is that at the same time the nation failed to do anything for the black man — through an act of Congress it was giving away millions of acres of land in the West and Midwest — which meant that it was willing to undergird its white peasants from Europe with an economic floor…Not only that, it provided agents to further their expertise in farming. Not only that, as the years unfolded it provided low interest rates so that they could mechanize their farms. And to this day thousands of these very persons are receiving millions of dollars in federal subsidies every year not to farm.
“And these are so often the very people who tell Negroes that they must lift themselves by their own bootstraps…
“We must come to see that the roots of racism are very deep in our country, and there must be something positive and massive in order to get rid of all the effects of racism and the tragedies of racial injustice.” — “Remaining Awake,” 1968 (271).
http://www.inmotionmagazine.com/mlk3.html
By the way, people will ALWAYS be treated differently. Fat or thin, dark or light, blonde or brunette, male or female, tall or short, ugly or good looking, dumb or smart…..
So government is supposed to fix that?
Uh, yea, sell that to the electorate.
Dr Pedro says that white people are the real victims of racism.
Like I said, and keep saying, too stupid for words.
Not a doctor like idiot pedro? How about law enforcement? Here’s a letter from the president of the INternational Association for Chiefs of Police:
“By embracing the philosophy of community policing, law enforcement agencies have been able to work with citizens to create safer towns and cities. We have learned that to be effective, police cannot operate alone; they require the active support and assistance of their communities.
Central to maintaining that support is the recognition that law enforcement agencies must reflect the diversity of the communities they serve …
But the realization of the critical importance of diversity in law enforcement certainly comes as no surprise, either to the IACP or me.
When I became a law enforcement officer in 1979, women were severely underrepresented in policing. Unfortunately, despite the fact that 26 years later a woman is president of the IACP, only 12-13 percent of the nation’s police officers are women.
These numbers represent an improvement over those of 30 years ago, but they are still far from where they need to be. The same can be said of many other underrepresented racial and ethnic groups as well. Things have gotten better, but we still have a long way to go.”
http://tinyurl.com/8j7fq
Listen guys, you can live in a fanatsy world of white persecution and whine and bitch about affirmative action or you can live in the real world where this country’s legacy of racism still manifests itself everyday, in very real world ways. Dr. Pedro whines and complains that people of color are being admitted into medical school “at TWICE the expected rate,” whatever the hell that means. But in 2003 the facts were these:
“Today 1 in 4 Americans is either Black, Hispanic, or Native American; however in medical school these groups comprise only:
· 1 in 10 medical students,
· 3 in 100 faculty members, and
· 1 in 100 full professors.”
There are laws against discrimination, yes, but does that sound like we’ve achieved equality? Hardly. Affirmitive action is only part of a larger solution that begins with head start and health care programs and continues on through federal grants and financial aid. Conservatives are against all of it, every step of the way.
Please. Affirmative action exists and is necessary because people HAVE BEEN AND CONTINUE TO BE treated differently based on RACE.
Yes, and as long as liberals and the Democratic Party continue to do so, minorities (or at least those people who choose to identify themselves by their ethnic group) will never think of themselves as equals, regardless of how anybody else treats them.
Again, it is not about advancing someone simply because of their race…
Wait a minute… in the statement above you said that affirmative action is necessary because of a person’s race, and now you’re saying it’s not because of their race. So which is it?
…it is ensuring that qualified people of character aren t discriminated against because of their race.
Courtesy of the Civil Rights Act (and later legislation), we already have laws on the books ensuring that people aren t discriminated against because of their race (and which also allows legal redress through the courts when someone is stupid enough to do it). How does affirmative action add to this? It doesn’t.
Discrimination is when someone is treated as less equal than someone else. Affirmative action, on the other hand, requires that some people be treated as more than equal than others. I guess a person’s tolerance for discrimination depends on who it is on the ‘less than’ side of the equation.
You’ll note that most of your MLK quotes are regarding efforts to get industry hiring practices changed (very necessary back in the pre Civil Rights Act days). As a result of his efforts, we now have (as noted above) legislation in place to help prevent the discrimination that was in effect in the early 60’s. Kudos to MLK.
But how does that apply to affirmative action?
I think the Dr.’s entire rant regarding Martin Luther King sums up Oliver’s headline for this post: “The Right Doesn t Get Dr. King.” When confronted with MLKs actual words, what does the good moronic Dr. have to say: “In 1964 that may have been true …” Truly they just don’t get it.
Oh yea, I forgot you are learning to doctor philosophy, straight answers backed by factual material are verboten….
Paul, why don’t you go plagiarize a thesis or something…..
Hey frame, here’s an idea….
Why not, for once, engage the question? I mean, your idiotic rhetorical replies suggest that you really CAN’t respond.
Well, perhaps that explains it. But honestly, don’t waste the electrons, there is enough spam out there already.
“Why not just give people honorary degrees and be done with it?”
Are that fucking stupid?
“As long as the democratic party, Oliver Willis and Jesse jackson continue to denigrate educated, intelligent african americans, those AMA numbers will not change”
Yes, indeed you are.
Shoot if you just want to improve these numbers…
Today 1 in 4 Americans is either Black, Hispanic, or Native American; however in medical school these groups comprise only:
· 1 in 10 medical students,
· 3 in 100 faculty members, and
· 1 in 100 full professors.
why not just give people honorary degrees and be done with it?
While we are at, I would like to apply for a job with the NBA, seeing as 80% of them of african-american
As long as the democratic party, Oliver Willis and Jesse jackson continue to denigrate educated, intelligent african americans, those AMA numbers will not change, even if you do have a 2:1 advantage getting into med school. You keep “uncle tom’ing” and “traitor to your race’ing” blacks that get educated and guess what? They won’t value education.
I don’t see how continuing to discriminate against people based on the color of their skin is helping things. Maybe you lefties could help by STOPPING RACED BASED DISCRIMINATION!
Or, are you argueing that only a black doctor can treat a black person? I don’t think you want to take THAT twisted idea to it’s logical ends.
So, do we “judge people by their character, or by the color of their skin”?
Or is it just a statistics game? Once we have the same percentage black doctors as are in the population we win? If so, don’t forget my application to the NBA…!
Oh, and here is what being accepted at twice the expected rate means, for those of you on the “short” school bus of life…..
from admission statistics UC Irvine Med see my previous link
Race Applied Accepted % Accepted Avg. GPA Avg. MCAT
Asian/White 4675 140 3.0% 3.79 11.6
Black/Hispanic 489 51 10.4% 3.42 9.8
See, 3% of asian/whites accepted. 10% of black/hispanic. However, the black/hispanic GPA and MCAT is substantially lower than the white. Probably just random luck eh?
Not.
So, you still promote racism? Way to go lefties……the KKK’s got nothiing on you! (Well, that was a democratic party offshoot too, so I guess it figures)
Am waiting for Oliver to condemn Ray Nagin for making Pat Robertson-like remarks today and Hillary Clinton for making a plantation comparison,
Why isolate this discrimination / affirmative action, point / counterpoint within one profession?
Do you know how many Afro – Americans want to be doctors?
It seems to me, that the most important numbers would be which amount of young people who want to be doctors, get to be doctors.
And what stops them? Race or money?
I refuse to believe that a seventeen year high school student can’t find a pre – med school and a way to pay for it, and get him / herself into medical school four years from now, on his / her own damn merits
This whole idea that “We’re not a good society, because (fill in the blanks) ______ have been left behind” is faux – socialist nonsense.
Take the Metro – North commuter train from Westchester County, NYS to NYC, and on your way out of the Bronx, you will pass right through the heart of Harlem, crossing right over 125th Street, before you go underground around 100th St. In that area, you are likely to see more decent cars (10 years old, or newer — mine’s 11 years old) parked, not passing through, than there are in many Thirld World capitals.
Poverty in America is not like poverty elsewhere. There are are probably many more young people in all of Eastern Europe, then there are in the United States, who would like to go to medical school, but never will.
This idea that everyone in America should be able to wake up tomorrow, and have the exact same opportunity, as if they all have the exact same gifts, and receive the exact outcome, would be incredibly laughable, were it not for the fact that believing in it has had such pernicious and deadly side effects.
Thomas More rightly named the place where “Utopia” can be found: “Erewhon” — ‘nowhere backward.’
There are laws against discrimination, yes, but does that sound like we ve achieved equality? Hardly.
Is there 100% equality? No. Is it markedly better in 2006 than it was in 1964? Yes. Will we ever reach 100% equality? Who know? As long as race-pimps like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton (aided by the ever willing Democratic Party) continue to treat blacks like second-class citizens who need their help to stand up for themselves, it’s going to be an uphill battle.
Affirmitive action is only part of a larger solution that begins with head start and health care programs and continues on through federal grants and financial aid. Conservatives are against all of it, every step of the way.
I’m a conservative and like most conservatives, I’m all for headstart, health care, federal grants and financial aid for all those who are financially in need. Care to offer some proof that I’m “against all of it, every step of the way”?
I believe the question is how many times do I have to engage and answer your tired arguments before you realize that you’re an idiot? I’ll say it again. Affirmative action is an important part of working toward a just and equal society. It is predicated on the fact that diversity produces a stronger society. It does not place diversity above competence. It does not set one race over another. It is an attempt to rectify centuries of racial discrimination by ensuring that people of color do not have their character and competence overlooked because of their race. Again, here are the words of Martin Luther King:
“In 1863 the Negro was told that he was free as a result of the Emancipation Proclamation. But he was not given any land to make that freedom meaningful. And the irony of it all is that at the same time the nation failed to do anything for the black man through an act of Congress it was giving away millions of acres of land in the West and Midwest which meant that it was willing to undergird its white peasants from Europe with an economic floor& Not only that, it provided agents to further their expertise in farming. Not only that, as the years unfolded it provided low interest rates so that they could mechanize their farms. And to this day thousands of these very persons are receiving millions of dollars in federal subsidies every year not to farm.
And these are so often the very people who tell Negroes that they must lift themselves by their own bootstraps&
We must come to see that the roots of racism are very deep in our country, and there must be something positive and massive in order to get rid of all the effects of racism and “the tragedies of racial injustice.
You respond to this with the suggestion that there is no racism in 2006 unless its racism directed at whites through affirmative action programs. That is utter nonsense. Conservatives such as yourself have been arguing against affirmative action since its inception on the same grounds you are arguing today: The Civil Rights Act ended institutional racism so let’s just leave well enough alone. Progress has been made but we do not yet live in an equal society free of racism and its pernicious effects including poverty.
You can continue on with your attempts to appropriate King’s legacy for your own ends but no one is buying it. You’re an ass Dr. Pedro, a whining ass, and you prove it in these threads time and again.
I believe the question is how many times do I have to engage and answer your tired arguments before you realize that you re an idiot?
How about just once? Quotes from MLK describing the racism endemic to American society 40 years ago does not in any way address the questions, points or arguments made on this thread. Nor does dismissing people as “idiots” when they don’t share your view.
But since addressing any of our statements seems to be beneath you, let me address a couple of yours…
Affirmative action is an important part of working toward a just and equal society.
AA might have been important in the 60’s and 70’s when racism was prevalent. But now? Where is the rampant racism keeping minorities from attending colleges and getting hired by states and municipalities? Give me some facts that support your statement and I’ll consider it with an open mind.
It is predicated on the fact that diversity produces a stronger society.
One of America’s greatest strengths has been it’s ability to absorb and incorporate parts of other cultures and make them part of our own. The key to this strength is the “parts of other cultures and make them part of our own” part. Unfortunately, this does not include the current concept of “diversity” being hawked in America, which foresees all cultures living side by side, all equally valid and important. Believe me, working for a large corporation for the past 18 years I’ve seen many iterations of this “diversity” training to know what I’m talking about. It’s just like metallurgy… different materials, blended together, make a stronger product. But if you just lump some different materials they stay brittle and break apart when any force is applied. We saw a few months ago how well this “separate cultures” policy is working for France.
It does not place diversity above competence.
This is an irrelevant statement, since “competence” is not a measurable factor used in college admissions or state/county hiring.
It does not set one race over another.
It’s whole purpose is to elevate one ethnic group over another.
It is an attempt to rectify centuries of racial discrimination by ensuring that people of color do not have their character and competence overlooked because of their race.
Under affirmative action, a person’s character or competence is irrelevant. The only important and measurable factor that applies is their ethnicity.
Up thread, you stated that “this country s legacy of racism still manifests itself everyday”. You know, that’s a mighty big claim. What are you basing that statement on? I’m sorry, but pulling it out of your ass doesn’t make it a fact.
You’re not talking about a “culture”. You are talking about a few radicals in the culture. It’s just like if I talk about Christian culture being less than equal, based on the ideas and actions of freaks like Eric Rudolph.
You are using the worst of the culture to validate your dismissal of the culture. That is racist and xenophobic. Sorry. You’re a racist.
All cultures are equally valid and important.
That’s your opinion. It’s not a fact.
Your first statement is a pretty good idea of racism manifesting itself.
Really? So if I happen to think less of a culture that says it’s perfectly OK to treat women like property and requires men to kill women in their family if they think the family’s honor has been slighted by them, that’s racism? Or if I look down on a culture that thinks it’s fine to kill other people because they have different religious belief or a different ethnic background, that makes me racist? And if I think that Hip Hop and the whole “Gansta” mentality is garbage and is damaging to women, that makes me a racist as well?
And it’s that kind of racism that’s keeping minorities out of universities all over this country so that affirmative action is desperately needed?
I think you need to check your facts a little harder.
Frank_D=
This is an argument about giving results to blacks, not opportunity. You must be too young to remember the events surrounding the passage of those bills: They were aimed at, and directly for the benefit of, blacks.
To pretend otherwise, is beyond disingenuous it is lying.
But intellectual dishonesty is your claim to fame, isn t it,. sissy boy?
No, it is your M.O., little girl. You sure the hell are not any older than me, and you certainly weren’t alive when this happened:
b) Does saying that an act of Congress & was giving away millions of acres of land in the West and Midwest which meant that it was willing to undergird its white peasants from Europe with an economic floor mean that blacks were excluded from the Homestead Act?
Were there no blacks out West?
Of course there were
Of course you weren’t.
Why do you try to divert away from results? The road to hell was paved, etc., so the proof is in the pudding. Get it?
you suuposedly back up your arguments with this:
http://www.writerswest.com/DIRECTORIES/re-black.htm
which is a ludicrous example of idiots linking to a biased and unsubstantiated claim.
Do you even understand what a fact is, little girl? You couldn’t put two and two together and get four if your life depended on it, you are so twisted.
Now, quit being such a whiner, and use recognized and substantive references, you tit!
WRWC =
Really? So if I happen to think less of a culture that says it s perfectly OK to treat women like property and requires men to kill women in their family if they think the family s honor has been slighted by them, that s racism?
WTF???? What ‘culture’ are you talking about, and WTF does that have to do with N.A./US society?
Can’t you base an argument on reality, you have to ’suppose’ stuff???
Another loser argument, brought to you by WRWC
“Unfortunately, this does not include the current concept of diversity being hawked in America, which foresees all cultures living side by side, all equally valid and important. “
All cultures are equally valid and important.
“Up thread, you stated that this country s legacy of racism still manifests itself everyday . You know, that s a mighty big claim. What are you basing that statement on? I m sorry, but pulling it out of your ass doesn t make it a fact. “
Your first statement is a pretty good idea of racism manifesting itself.
frameone, it is important to respond to the comment being made, before you call the person who made the comment an idiot. Really.
Let’s take a closer look at one of your mini – treatises: You quote MLK, Jr.:
a) Who says land is required “to make that freedom meaningful”?
Freedom isn’t possession. I don’t have any land.
b) Does saying that “an act of Congress … was giving away millions of acres of land in the West and Midwest which meant that it was willing to undergird its white peasants from Europe with an economic floor” mean that blacks were excluded from the Homestead Act?
Were there no blacks out West?
Of course there were
This is an argument about giving results to blacks, not opportunity. You must be too young to remember the events surrounding the passage of those bills: They were aimed at, and directly for the benefit of, blacks.
To pretend otherwise, is beyond disingenuous — it is lying.
But intellectual dishonesty is your claim to fame, isn’t it,. sissy boy?
deepdodo says we have proven..”
No you haven’t! You have to use facts to prove stuff, moron.
Mikmik you command of the english language remains atrocious, so I am not actually sure what you want me to compare.
Blacks and hispanis don’t apply to med school in the same ratio that they live in society. What I have demonstrate is that simply by being a “minority” your chances of acceptance are 3 times better than a non-minority…..even if you are not as strong an applicant based on gpa/mcat.
So far no one has demonstrated any evidence of institutional racism in this society today, in fact, we have proven that because of institutional REVERSE racism, “minorities” have a 3X admission advantage.
The question remains: do you judge people by the quality of their character, or the color of their skin?
Hey, Ian!
ian Says:
January 16th, 2006 at 1:32 pm
It s funny how everytime specific examples are given, you Dems have an answer for it & it s like you have talking points or something ..
Good one! Woudn’t want to have refutation to idiodic claims, now would we? No, they are “talking points, or something”.
LMAO! That something is called facts and reason, which of course you don’t recognize.
Here is a ‘talking point’-
drpedro, you don t get it do you, their traitors to their race, that s why Oliver hates them! It s really simple. If they re black and they re Republican, there is something wrong with that and we can t let that happen, now can we.
If anyone treats blacks as tokens, it s Democrats.
Jesus, where have I heard that before? “Look at the democrats”, whether or not that has anyhing to do with anything, it is a pretty useless excuse “they are doing it too! whaa, whaa.”
How stupid are you that you cannot use valid reasoning?
Deeplikepondscum says”
Actually I just take Martin Luther King at his word when he said
I have a dream that one day my children will be judged on the quality of their character, not the color of their skin
The first step to a society that is free from racism is to stop the institutional racism inherent therein.
I guess he thinks that without affirmative action to counterbalance the lack of equal opportunities, that suddenly, lo and behold – all imbalance disappears.
You can easily prove your point, dipstick, just show where the same % of admissions = the same % of population, it is an easy ratio to find and compare.
Do it now.
Blacks and hispanis don t apply to med school in the same ratio that they live in society. What I have demonstrate is that simply by being a minority your chances of acceptance are 3 times better than a non-minority& ..even if you are not as strong an applicant based on gpa/mcat.
So far no one has demonstrated any evidence of institutional racism in this society today, in fact, we have proven that because of institutional REVERSE racism, minorities have a 3X admission advantage.
LOL! Yeah, when the ratio of applicants = the ratio of population, then you talk, okay?
You sat “we have proven
WRWC = When you know what you re talking about, you talk, okay?
Okay, you got it.
Does that mean that 50% of the police force should be female?
It means that women should have an equal opportunity to apply, dipstick. If they are not allowed to, or unable to apply because of their financial situation, or lack of education because they are oppressed, then it means they are not getting an equal opportunity, dipstick
You re not talking about a culture . You are talking about a few radicals in the culture
Wrong. It’s not just a few bad apples… it’s the cultural norm. Have you ever been to Saudia Arabia? I have, numerous times.
You are using the worst of the culture to validate your dismissal of the culture
Again, it’s the cultural norm, not the “worst” of the culture. And where did I dismiss the culture? I said I don’t think as highly of it as I do ours. And my opinion of cultures is based on the values, beliefs and actions that each one embodies, not just some kneejerk “all other cultures are inferior to mine” mentality. And keep in mind I’m talking about “culture”, not “people”. When I interact with people in those cultures, I treat them as equal human beings, with decency and respect. That still doesn’t mean I think their culture is 100% equal to my own.
That is racist and xenophobic. Sorry. You re a racist.
I’m racist and xenophobic if I think less of some cultures because of the beliefs and actions that those cultures espouse? Sorry. You’re an idiot.
LOL! Yeah, when the ratio of applicants = the ratio of population, then you talk, okay?
What makes you think that people apply to medical school in the same ratios as the population? What if some people don’t want to be doctors? Look at frameone’s post above quoting a statistic that “only 12-13 percent of the nation s police officers are women.” What should the ratio be? In the 2000 census, women were just over 50% of the population. Does that mean that 50% of the police force should be female?
When you know what you’re talking about, you talk, okay?
It means that women should have an equal opportunity to apply, dipstick. If they are not allowed to, or unable to apply because of their financial situation, or lack of education because they are oppressed, then it means they are not getting an equal opportunity, dipstick
Yes, they should have an equal opportunity to apply. Are they not getting it? How do you know that? Where is the data that shows (or hell, even hints that it might be the case) that women or minorities are being routinely denied opportunities in education and hiring?
Rather than offer any facts or data, people just say “of course minorities are being denied opportunities because of widespread racism, that’s why we need affirmative action” as if the statement alone is enough. It’s not.
If people from a disadvantaged economic background need help in getting an education, they should get it. If people are denied a job based on their gender or race, there is legal recourse and they deserve to prevail. Other than that, the world isn’t fair and most of the time you have to work hard to get what you want.
And “dipstick”? Is that the best you could do, or are you just going easy on me?
The same goes for blacks, or any other minority. If they are not treated equal and given the same education as everyone else and this renders them less likely to apply for university, it is still unequal opprtunity.
You try to say that ‘numbers who apply’, but you conveniently ignore the factors that determines who get’s to apply, and who gets a proper education.
Don’t be so stupid, try to expand your simple little mind to see the whole picture. I don’t fall for falsely represented situations.
the family s honor has been slighted by them, that s racism?
Of course, only a bigot would assume that this behavior would be indicative of another race. It is not like rednecks, or WASP liberal mysogynists could ever do anything like that.
Since this post was ostensibly about Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., I wonder what his impressions would be of Sen. Clinton s slave reference yesterday, or Mayor Nagins desire to rebuild a chocolate New Orleans.
ian asked the same thing upthread yesterday. Radio silence from OW or anyone else here. I guess the options are to either (1) come out and criticize it or (2) support it, either vocally or by staying silent. I guess the consensus from OW and the liberals here is for (2).
I’m concerned that Mayor Nagin has been stealing from Pat Robertson’s playbook… he said that “”Surely God is mad at America. He sent us hurricane after hurricane after hurricane, and it’s destroyed and put stress on this country”.
And in his comments about a “chocolate New Orleans” the mayor also said “This city will be a majority-African American city. It’s the way God wants it to be. You can’t have New Orleans no other way. It wouldn’t be New Orleans.”
Nope. No racism there.
And dipstick ? Is that the best you could do, or are you just going easy on me?
No, that is a sign of weakness, or an admission of defeat, calling names.
mikmik: Your schizophrenically written comments defy reponse.
You are in need of therapy.
You apparently don’t even recognize the content of other people’s comments — not just my own.
Your responses are composed almost entirely of belligerence, with no substance.
I am not a psychiatrist, but I have worked in mental health for about ten years, and I am sure there is help availble for you.
Anyways, I am guilty of prejudging you, VRWC, just because you said you are conservative.
I learned already debating with you here, I respect you a lot.
When I interact with people in those cultures, I treat them as equal human beings, with decency and respect. That still doesn t mean I think their culture is 100% equal to my own.
Absolutely! They are ‘people’ who are members of a culture, eh?
That still doesn t mean I think their culture is 100% equal to my own
No, you are not biased.
Ever think of people as just ‘people’? You and your Fundamentalisrt Christian Evangelical culture. You are not equal to me, my culture is more refined.
Since this post was ostensibly about Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., I wonder what his impressions would be of Sen. Clinton’s slave reference yesterday, or Mayor Nagins desire to rebuild a chocolate New Orleans.
Frank_D says:
mikmik: Your schizophrenically written comments defy reponse.
You are in need of therapy
Look man, flattery will get you no where ;o)
If I use names, say STFU mikmik, we all want what’s best, that’s what counts!
What a moron. I know that it is Islamic to practice protecting the family honor , I never said anything about that it isn t. It is your simple, yet still misunderstood by you, assumption that it is only a cultural thing.
Do you even read this stuff? I specifically quoted a statement that said it’s NOT religious but it IS cultural. You even copied it in your post!
Here, I’ll quote it again, with special emphasis for the thinking-impaired:
Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honor killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural issue. But since Islam has influence over vast Muslims, culturalist and murderers of females use Islam to justify honor killing even though there is no support for honor killing in Islam.
You’re making it crystal clear who the moron is here, mikmik.
mikmik, if you can, swim upstream and read my pages of links to med school admissions profiles…those are the facts you were looking for.
I imagine when the democrats stop promoting a racist affirmative action agenda, we will find a broader spectrum of our society doing a variety of things. Currently though, the leftist believe that the only way a “minority” can take advantage of education, public jobs and public contracts is by giving them special benefits that non “minorities” don’t get.
That is racism, pure and simple…and it is part of the Democratic Party Platform.
You and your Fundamentalisrt Christian Evangelical culture. You are not equal to me, my culture is more refined
Oh and by the way, I am a Christian but not a “Fundamentalisrt Christian Evangelical”. I find people like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell both amusing and disturbing.
Ever think of people as just people ?
All the time. And that’s one of the key differences between conservatives and liberals… conservatives tend to base their opinion of a person on their character and their actions. Liberals just can’t seem to separate the person from their ethnic or cultural group. Conservatives see the individual, liberals see the group.
You and your Fundamentalisrt Christian Evangelical culture. You are not equal to me, my culture is more refined.
That’s your opinion. I disagree, but that’s my opinion too. That still doesn’t make you a better or worse person or more or less equal than me.
Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honor killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural issue.
I repeat, what does a ‘cultural issue’ have to do with US society? If you are seeing in terms of culture, you are seeing biased.
I know plenty of people that have it made because they are spoiled, and I know plenty of people that are hard workers, and suffer in poverty.
It is not an indication of effort if you are rich or poor, I think that ias a feeble excuse to justify inequality in society. There are more poor minority people than % of population, far more than could be explained than by ‘harder working’. It is cultural and racial bias.
What Martin Luthor King Jr. despaired over, is still true today, only perhaps in a slight difference of degree.
drpedro Says:
January 17th, 2006 at 11:12 am
mikmik, if you can, swim upstream and read my pages of links to med school admissions profiles& those are the facts you were looking for.
I imagine when the democrats stop promoting a racist affirmative action agenda, we will find a broader spectrum of our society doing a variety of things. Currently though, the leftist believe that the only way a minority can take advantage of education, public jobs and public contracts is by giving them special benefits that non minorities don t get.
That is racism, pure and simple& and it is part of the Democratic Party Platform.
I don’t agree with you one bit. I am sorry for calling you names, though. That is not right to do.
Naa nana ;o)