’)If you immerse yourself in right-wing media (possible, from morning until night nowadays), you could delude yourself into believing that America is a far right-nation – a country filled with bible beating right-wingers who reject the right to choose and are just this side of James Dobson.
But the truth of the matter is, the hardcore beliefs of the Republican party are just not in the American mainstream, and that’s why Republicans always have to hide their beliefs behind a veil of moderation — and why Republican presidents can never deliver on their right wing venom to the cultural right while in office (about outlawing abortion and banning gay marriage…).
Cue Alito
Supreme Court nominee Samuel A. Alito Jr. said yesterday that his 1985 assertion that the Constitution does not protect the right to an abortion was a “true expression of my views at the time,” but he told senators he would “approach the question with an open mind” if confirmed to the high court.
Where’s the indignation, the rousing defense for what the craziest senator ever – Tom Coburn – described.
A physician who has delivered about 4,000 babies, Coburn said he had cared for over 300 women “who’ve had complications from this wonderful right to choose to kill their unborn babies. And that’s what it is: It’s the right of convenience to take the life.
“And the question that arises … is where are we in America when we decide that it’s legal to kill our unborn children?”
He said senators can’t express concern for those who are weak and vulnerable “and at the same time say, ‘I don’t care about those who have been ripped from the wombs of women and the complications that have come about throughout that.’”
The problem is, if Alito said anything like that he wouldn’t get out of committee, because while it may sell in Oklahoma, it won’t sell in the vast majority of America that’s pro-choice. But wrapped in the cocoon of right wing media, the right can delude itself into believing that they’re in the majority opinion on these things.
Alito’s little mini-rant about people of privilege behaving badly; abortion as killing for convenience…
Am I the only one who smells Bork?
And you were doing so well in the post above on pay raises for Congressman, Oliver.
The vast majority of Americans do not favor abortion on demand. Period.
Abortion will continue to be limited as science catches up to the law.
I predict that when women can stop being pregnant without torturing and killing the life within them, then abortion will end, legal or otherwise.
Terminating pregnancies at will should be a crime.
Here are the polling numbers. Few people believe abortions should be allowed “in all cases.”
What is “abortion on demand?” If it means no restrictions at all then yes, Frank is right. Americans do want restrictions. Only about 25% of Americans want absolutely no restrictions. But the restrictions that Americans favor are fairly moderate – parental consent, brief waiting period, ban on late term abortions – not “only in cases of rape or incest or the mother’s life in jeopardy” as pro-lifers want. The polling on abortion is quite extensive and the majority of Americans clearly fall within the “moderately pro-choice” pale of the spectrum. So, is this “abortion on demand”. I don’t know. I suppose for minors it isn’t. And for the 1% of abortions that involve late-term fetuses it isn’t either. But other than that, it’s pretty much status quo.
Show us that poll, Frank.
The problem for Democrats on the abortion issue is that there has been a shift in public opinion over the last 10-15 years. In the 80’s the question would be asked and you’d get a 65-35 split in favor of people being pro-choice. Now it’s almost split.
The larger problem for Democrats despite Oliver’s spittling about bible thumpers is that once you start breaking the question down, the Democrats position (abortion on demand) is nowhere near the mainstream. Far from it.
The Democratic position (as a whole) is that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion for any reason, at any age, and at any time in the pregnancy. No restrictions. That position is rejected by at least 75-80% of the country.
Contrary to Oliver’s assertion, it is Democrats who hide behind a veil of moderation. Why do you think they’ve started referring to themselves as “progressive?” They talk about abortion and say they support restrictions as long as it doesn’t interfere with a woman’s ‘health’ which is such a broad term it could apply to a woman getting the sniffles.
The Democrats have a chance of beating Rick Santorum in PA. But who did they have to run? A pro-life Democrat. Why is that Oliver?
Nice spinning.
Fifty-seven percent say abortion should be legal in most or all cases. The same poll shows that by a 2-to-1 margin, people want Roe v. Wade upheld.
Because the wordsmith gnomes at GOP got the public to believe that “liberal” was a synonym for “kitten-torturing pervert”?
Fifty-seven percent say abortion should be legal in most or all cases.
Look who’s spinning. The Democratic position is that abortion should be allowed in ALL cases. That puts them in the 17% range.
For the mother? The physician? Both?
Who you going to send to the slammer, Frank?
Stop changing the subject, Jay. JWG made a comment about public opinion, and I responded on that topic.
If you wish to talk about the Democrats v. the Republicans, please do. However, please don’t insinuate it into a conversation on a different subject.
The Democrats have a chance of beating Rick Santorum in PA. But who did they have to run? A pro-life Democrat. Why is that Oliver?
The Democratic position is that abortion should be allowed in ALL cases.
Heh.
The Democratic position (as a whole) is that a woman should be allowed to have an abortion for any reason, at any age, and at any time in the pregnancy.
This just isn’t true. And you know it. But you’ll keep saying it, because… God knows why.
It can be spun both ways. However, I was responding to the challenge against Frank’s quote “abortion on demand” which to me implies “in all cases.”
You should note that while a majority want abortion in general to remain legal, a majority also wants to see more restrictions.
We need to be careful about our definitions or everyone talks past each other.
Stop changing the subject, Jay. JWG made a comment about public opinion, and I responded on that topic.
Who’s changing the subject? I merely tied it back to what Oliver is saying about public opinion regarding abortion and the position on it vis a vis Democrats and Republicans.
This just isn t true. And you know it. But you ll keep saying it, because& God knows why.
Oh no? When was the last time a pro-life Democrat ran for President? The hard core pro-choice groups like NARAL were opposed to people like Evan Bayh running for President because he supported a ban on partial birth abortions. If it’s not the case, then why do Democrats almost in their entirety oppose legislation that places restrictions on abortions?
If the “vast majority” of Americans were on the side of the Democrats position as you claim, then how come that mode of attack has been failing for several years now?
Fine then. Let’s put it to a vote.
Oops. Libs don’t want people voting on the issue. Because they fear gay-marriage-referendum-like landslides voting against them.
Because the restrictions usually aren’t as simple as on partial birth abortions, they’re usually like the shit thats coming out of mississippi where the woman is required to wait a ridiculouosly long time, there is only one clinic available in the state so they’re losing pay and having to pay for a hotel while they’re waiting, at which point they’re trying to get them to be forced to “listen to the heartbeat” no matter which trimester they’re in.
And for the jackass who was talking about torturous methods…how about we just make birth control mandatory until someone was actually ready to have a baby? You cool with that? That should make abortions unnecessary. Hows that sound?
And accused me of spinning on a topic I wasn’t even discussing. Once again, JWG commented, and I responded, on the subject of public opinion, not the position of Democrats. As I said, you’re welcome to introduce any topic you wish. However, please don’t pretend that what you want to talk about and what I want to talk about are the same thing.
You’re excused.
That majority includes those who support abortion, but want more restrictions, and those who want to restrict abortion “in most cases,” right?
To me, that segment of “legal, but with more restrictions” is the most interesting. I’d like to see additional polling on what restrictions they favor and what exceptions they would allow.
You have to get past the simple questions to make good policy.
Exactly my point, JWG.
Republicans are in favor of banning abortion. Get George Bush to say that. He won’t. Democrats are in favor of the right to choose an abortion. Every Democratic presidential candidate of the last thirty years or more will say that, because a) it’s the right thing to say and b) most Americans agree.
JWG and I were discussing public opinion. You quoted my comment and accused me of spinning the Democratic position.
Can you really not understand the difference, Jay, or are you just ignoring the difference to be a jerk?
Get George Bush to say that. He won t.
He has and we’ve done this before and showed you proof.
Democrats are in favor of the right to choose an abortion.
No, they are in favor of “the right to choose.” They NEVER use the word abortion. And that right to choose comes without exceptions which puts them out of the mainstream.
nd accused me of spinning on a topic I wasn t even discussing.
Oh please. Stop being so pedantic. You took two sections of a poll, combined the numbers and used it to refute somebody else when those numbers broken up, tell a much different story. Deal with it.
JayC;
Stop. Would you want to be a supporter of the war in Iraq and
have your picture taken with some marine who’s just had his
head blown off?
Abortion is ugly and no one likes the idea. You want the pro choicers
to show whole hearted support for the practice by seemingly
reveling in the gore? Please.
Bottom line the Dems are on the right side of the issue and the right side of public opinion. Right wing republicans on the wrong side on both counts.
If the Republicans want to run for office on the platform of ending legalized abortion in all cases they’re welcome to. Have fun in political Siberia guys.
Democrats NEVER use the word abortion, Jay C? Someone should have told that to the people who wrote the Democratic Party Platform for 2004: “Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.”
That phrase concludes this paragraph:
“We will defend the dignity of all Americans against those who would undermine it. Because we believe in the privacy and equality of women, we stand proudly for a woman’s right to choose, consistent with Roe v. Wade, and regardless of her ability to pay. We stand firmly against Republican efforts to undermine that right. At the same time, we strongly support family planning and adoption incentives. Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.”
http://www.democrats.org/pdfs/2004platform.pdf
Would one of the right wing idiots here please direct us to that portion of the 2004 Republican Party Platform that so clearly and directly states Republican opposition to legalized abortion? Bet you can’t.
Because while we all know that the hard core right wing would like to see abortion completely banned it is the political desire that dare not speak its name in mainstream debates. We all know that a guy like Rick Santorum opposes legalized abortio. Or am I wrong? Does Rick Santorum support legalized abortion? Reading this I just can’t tell. Santorum opens up his little screed with the same bullshit put forth here: The the majority of Americans oppose abortion. He writes: “Thirty-two years after the legalization of abortion by the Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade, the majority of Americans consider themselves pro-life.” Surprisingly, however, Santorum doesn’t seem to have the courage of his convictions even when they are so backed up by the majority. At no point in the rest of his essay does he once assert or even suggest that now is the time to over turn Roe and make abortion illegal. Indeed, Santorum goes so far as to write that, “Women need to know that they have a choice and that people are there to help.”
Please. Santorum is arguing for choice? Talk about semantic games, Jay C.
Someone just tell me why, if he believes that the majority of Americans are pro-life, Santorum didn’t just come out and say that he wants to make abortion, all abortion, illegal? Has he no balls?
Speaking of “balls”, frameone, and explaining the motives of others, why don’t you treat us to one of your grand 1,000 word treatises that will explain why the Democrats on the Judiciary Committee won’t come out and say, “Judge Alito, we are really opposed to your nomination, because someday, you might be the swing vote that makes Roe v Wade null and void?”
No Frank. It is a little more complex than that. Roe v. Wade
is just one element of what possibly could be the larger issue
of individual rights vs. the power inherent in big business and
abusive government. Has he cast off his old views as he says
he has? Or is he cleverly avoiding answering the pivotal questions
on this issue? I am not going to argue it with you here. I
am asking the question because I have doubts. I am glad
the dems are not just signing off on him to avoid a fight.
Perhaps you failed to notice frameone’s comment, its last paragraph, and the fact that it was that paragraph to which I was responding.
I think some of the people on these threads have contracted “mad frameone disease,” an affliction which causes commenters to attack other comments with irrelevant comments.
Frank, the Dems have directly asked Alito his position on Roe and he has demurred and deflected even as he has offered his opinion on other issues and rulings that may also come before the court. The Dems on the judiciary committee and Democrats in general, with few exceptions, can some right out and state their position on abortion: They’re for keeping it legal. It is the Republicans and conservatives who seem to have trouble speaking clearly about their position. Most of them can’t or won’t come out and say that they want to see abortion made entirely illegal. They can’t run on banning abortion because the American public is in favor of keeping abortion legal, period.
Frank;
Are you the only commenter here who doesn’t horn in on a conversation?
The very last exchange we had was the result of your inane comment in response to what I said to someone else. Frameone disease?
Is that worse than Frank disease?
And btw; you dismiss as irrelevent, that which to you have
response to.
strike last setence
insert;
btw, you dismiss as irrelevent, that which you have no response to.
****crickets***