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	<title>Comments on: Mining Horror</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/</link>
	<description>Like Kryptonite To Stupid</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Frank_D</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17801</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank_D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 22:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17801</guid>
		<description>buma: The total incomprehensibility of your previous comment speaks to noone about anything.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>buma: The total incomprehensibility of your previous comment speaks to noone about anything.</p>
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		<title>By: buma</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17800</link>
		<dc:creator>buma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17800</guid>
		<description>The irony of Frank&#039;s response to me speaks for itself.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The irony of Frank&#8217;s response to me speaks for itself.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank_D</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17799</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank_D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 12:01:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17799</guid>
		<description>SadieB: Thought this article (OT) might interest you:

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12101074_1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12101074_1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12101074_1&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SadieB: Thought this article (OT) might interest you:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12101074_1" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12101074_1" rel="nofollow">http://www.commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12101074_1</a></p>
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		<title>By: Frank_D</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17798</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank_D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 11:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17798</guid>
		<description>buma, for once in your life, could you stop being an idiot?

You have no idea what you are talking about. Believing that all things work according to God&#039;s will has nothing whatever to do with denial, plausible or otherwise. You don&#039;t want to have a serious conversation about this, so I won&#039;t pursue the topic any further.
Not only is how I feel about George W. Bush completely unknown to you, it is also totally irrelevant to this topic.

You just felt the urge to &quot;pay me back&quot; for the beginning of my response to you. Silly boy.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>buma, for once in your life, could you stop being an idiot?</p>
<p>You have no idea what you are talking about. Believing that all things work according to God&#8217;s will has nothing whatever to do with denial, plausible or otherwise. You don&#8217;t want to have a serious conversation about this, so I won&#8217;t pursue the topic any further.<br />
Not only is how I feel about George W. Bush completely unknown to you, it is also totally irrelevant to this topic.</p>
<p>You just felt the urge to &#8220;pay me back&#8221; for the beginning of my response to you. Silly boy.</p>
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		<title>By: buma</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17797</link>
		<dc:creator>buma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 10:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17797</guid>
		<description>Frank, it&#039;s just another one of your indulgences in plausible denial. If the miners are saved, it&#039;s a miracle of God; if they are almost all dead it&#039;s  God&#039;s will. Sure, some people find comfort in religion. They always have, regardless of the peculiarities of their particular religion. I am not wired to believe in that kind of nonsense. And that&#039;s just God&#039;s will, right? Your comment would have been more interesting if it had not been made by you. After all, you also believe Bush&#039;s word.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank, it&#8217;s just another one of your indulgences in plausible denial. If the miners are saved, it&#8217;s a miracle of God; if they are almost all dead it&#8217;s  God&#8217;s will. Sure, some people find comfort in religion. They always have, regardless of the peculiarities of their particular religion. I am not wired to believe in that kind of nonsense. And that&#8217;s just God&#8217;s will, right? Your comment would have been more interesting if it had not been made by you. After all, you also believe Bush&#8217;s word.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank_D</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17796</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank_D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jan 2006 04:01:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17796</guid>
		<description>buma: Your point would have been far more interesting, if it had been made by you.

Nevertheless, I have no trouble discerning God&#039;s will in this, and further, I would venture to say that the friends and families of the dead miners will be far easier to console having the knowledge of God&#039;s will than they would wandering in spiritual darkness cursing Him.

See the Book of Job in this regard.
Any translation will do, but the New American Bible is my preference:
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/job/intro.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/job/intro.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/job/intro.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>buma: Your point would have been far more interesting, if it had been made by you.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I have no trouble discerning God&#8217;s will in this, and further, I would venture to say that the friends and families of the dead miners will be far easier to console having the knowledge of God&#8217;s will than they would wandering in spiritual darkness cursing Him.</p>
<p>See the Book of Job in this regard.<br />
Any translation will do, but the New American Bible is my preference:<br />
<a href="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/job/intro.htm" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/job/intro.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/job/intro.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: buma</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17795</link>
		<dc:creator>buma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 23:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17795</guid>
		<description>When it was a &#039;miracle&#039; it was God answering our prayers. Now that it is a human tragedy and outrage, is God ignoring our prayers? Inquiring minds wish to know, while the faith-based ones are just chalking it up to God working in those mysterious ways.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thetalentshow.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.thetalentshow.org/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.thetalentshow.org/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/a&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When it was a &#8216;miracle&#8217; it was God answering our prayers. Now that it is a human tragedy and outrage, is God ignoring our prayers? Inquiring minds wish to know, while the faith-based ones are just chalking it up to God working in those mysterious ways.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.thetalentshow.org/" rel="nofollow"></a><a href="http://www.thetalentshow.org/" rel="nofollow">http://www.thetalentshow.org/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Quaker in a Basement</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17794</link>
		<dc:creator>Quaker in a Basement</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 21:01:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17794</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Far be it for me to defend the media, however, in this case, I don t think anything was their fault. They reported the information they were being given as they had no way of knowing the correct information unless they had a mole in the command center.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

They got the story wrong. Badly.

That means either an official source gave them bad information or they reported a poorly sourced story. If it&#039;s the former, the media should report that. If it&#039;s the latter, then somebody didn&#039;t do their job right.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Far be it for me to defend the media, however, in this case, I don t think anything was their fault. They reported the information they were being given as they had no way of knowing the correct information unless they had a mole in the command center.</p></blockquote>
<p>They got the story wrong. Badly.</p>
<p>That means either an official source gave them bad information or they reported a poorly sourced story. If it&#8217;s the former, the media should report that. If it&#8217;s the latter, then somebody didn&#8217;t do their job right.</p>
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		<title>By: Hedley</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17793</link>
		<dc:creator>Hedley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 19:01:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17793</guid>
		<description>Far be it for me to defend the media, however, in this case, I don&#039;t think anything was their fault.  They reported the information they were being given as they had no way of knowing the correct information unless they had a mole in the command center.

In all likelihood, I think the word from the resuce teams in the mine must have come back to the command center that they found the 12 miners and somehow someone thought they heard that 12 survivors were found.  It appears that the mine personnel who misinterpreted the reports from the rescue teams then phoned their family and friends in the church and word quickly got out of control.

While I can sympatize with the &quot;damned if you do, damned if you don&#039;t&quot; position the company was in at that point (i.e., &quot;Who do I tell not to celebrate?&quot;) I think they should have erred on the side of providing truthful accounts of events (and rebuking unproven rumors) even if it would have caused more anguish to the families.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Far be it for me to defend the media, however, in this case, I don&#8217;t think anything was their fault.  They reported the information they were being given as they had no way of knowing the correct information unless they had a mole in the command center.</p>
<p>In all likelihood, I think the word from the resuce teams in the mine must have come back to the command center that they found the 12 miners and somehow someone thought they heard that 12 survivors were found.  It appears that the mine personnel who misinterpreted the reports from the rescue teams then phoned their family and friends in the church and word quickly got out of control.</p>
<p>While I can sympatize with the &#8220;damned if you do, damned if you don&#8217;t&#8221; position the company was in at that point (i.e., &#8220;Who do I tell not to celebrate?&#8221;) I think they should have erred on the side of providing truthful accounts of events (and rebuking unproven rumors) even if it would have caused more anguish to the families.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank_D</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17792</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank_D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 19:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17792</guid>
		<description>I might add that this statement, &quot;The actual worth of that work is irrelevant, you see, as is the relationship between the demand for coal for wages paid,  was sarcastic.

Coal miners are, of course paid for the danger of their work. GAP clerks, for example, are not.

Your apology is accepted.

Jay C, nonetheless the story was not, at that moment, the media&#039;s error. It was the death of twelve men. Nothing could be more horrible, in my mind, (with the exception of losing a child) than saying goodbye to a loved one in the morning, and never seeing them alive again.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I might add that this statement, &#8220;The actual worth of that work is irrelevant, you see, as is the relationship between the demand for coal for wages paid,  was sarcastic.</p>
<p>Coal miners are, of course paid for the danger of their work. GAP clerks, for example, are not.</p>
<p>Your apology is accepted.</p>
<p>Jay C, nonetheless the story was not, at that moment, the media&#8217;s error. It was the death of twelve men. Nothing could be more horrible, in my mind, (with the exception of losing a child) than saying goodbye to a loved one in the morning, and never seeing them alive again.</p>
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		<title>By: theunderpantsgnome</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17791</link>
		<dc:creator>theunderpantsgnome</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 18:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17791</guid>
		<description>yahoo had it wrong too
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>yahoo had it wrong too</p>
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		<title>By: Hedley</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17790</link>
		<dc:creator>Hedley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 17:01:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17790</guid>
		<description>I watched the coverage until very late, flipping back and forth between Fox, CNN and MSNBC.  Overall, I think CNN actually did the best job covering the events, particularly the medical condition of the lone survivor.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I watched the coverage until very late, flipping back and forth between Fox, CNN and MSNBC.  Overall, I think CNN actually did the best job covering the events, particularly the medical condition of the lone survivor.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank_D</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17788</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank_D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17788</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;CNN is now saying that only one man survived. How the hell can they have done this to those families?&lt;/i&gt;
Oliver, please learn to write. Unless &quot;they&quot; refers to FOX news.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>CNN is now saying that only one man survived. How the hell can they have done this to those families?</i><br />
Oliver, please learn to write. Unless &#8220;they&#8221; refers to FOX news.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay C</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17789</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:01:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17789</guid>
		<description>Frank, I&#039;m not one to defend Oliver, Redskins fan that he is, but....On this one, I think you jumped the gun a little. I was able to take his reference to &quot;they&quot; as whoever it was said these men were alive, and not a shot at CNN for reporting it.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank, I&#8217;m not one to defend Oliver, Redskins fan that he is, but&#8230;.On this one, I think you jumped the gun a little. I was able to take his reference to &#8220;they&#8221; as whoever it was said these men were alive, and not a shot at CNN for reporting it.</p>
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		<title>By: SadieB</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17787</link>
		<dc:creator>SadieB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:01:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17787</guid>
		<description>Looking back I admit I was reading between the lines when you said this:

&quot;Orwellian (well named) would have us believe that the  solution  to this coal mining  problem  is to pay more money for every other job in the area. The actual worth of that work is irrelevant, you see, as is the relationship between the demand for coal for wages paid.&quot;

I extended your argument further than you did -- free market dictates value of coal= free market dictates value of lives spent in procuring coal, and the whole thing justified because people enter into the free market on their own free will.

It&#039;s a classical libertarian-type argument, but it is not the argument you made and I apologoze.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looking back I admit I was reading between the lines when you said this:</p>
<p>&#8220;Orwellian (well named) would have us believe that the  solution  to this coal mining  problem  is to pay more money for every other job in the area. The actual worth of that work is irrelevant, you see, as is the relationship between the demand for coal for wages paid.&#8221;</p>
<p>I extended your argument further than you did &#8212; free market dictates value of coal= free market dictates value of lives spent in procuring coal, and the whole thing justified because people enter into the free market on their own free will.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a classical libertarian-type argument, but it is not the argument you made and I apologoze.</p>
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		<title>By: SadieB</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17786</link>
		<dc:creator>SadieB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:01:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17786</guid>
		<description>&quot;Is there some way for you jokers to develop a friggin  heart?&quot;

Now that&#039;s rich coming from the man who only recently was explaining to us all so patiently that the miners deserved their fate because they chose to work in the mines.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Is there some way for you jokers to develop a friggin  heart?&#8221;</p>
<p>Now that&#8217;s rich coming from the man who only recently was explaining to us all so patiently that the miners deserved their fate because they chose to work in the mines.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank_D</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17785</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank_D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 16:01:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17785</guid>
		<description>SadieB: You are a liar. I said no such thing. You&#039;re just being a bitch.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SadieB: You are a liar. I said no such thing. You&#8217;re just being a bitch.</p>
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		<title>By: Oliver Willis</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17784</link>
		<dc:creator>Oliver Willis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:01:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17784</guid>
		<description>Nobody&#039;s writing about CNN, Frank. Please learn to read.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nobody&#8217;s writing about CNN, Frank. Please learn to read.</p>
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		<title>By: elrod</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17782</link>
		<dc:creator>elrod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17782</guid>
		<description>Hedley,
I agree. I don&#039;t think anybody was being malicious. But the CEO knew that the rumors floating throughout the town - and the world - were, at least, not confirmed. Maybe there was nothing they could do to control them. Maybe if the CEO had said, &quot;Wait a minute, folks. We&#039;re not sure if they&#039;ve made it out yet. Let&#039;s just hope that things work out, but we haven&#039;t confirmed that the miners are alive yet,&quot; it would have helped the situation. Or maybe, as you say, it would have just meant taking the community on an emotional rollercoaster. Who knows? The whole thing is so tragic.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hedley,<br />
I agree. I don&#8217;t think anybody was being malicious. But the CEO knew that the rumors floating throughout the town &#8211; and the world &#8211; were, at least, not confirmed. Maybe there was nothing they could do to control them. Maybe if the CEO had said, &#8220;Wait a minute, folks. We&#8217;re not sure if they&#8217;ve made it out yet. Let&#8217;s just hope that things work out, but we haven&#8217;t confirmed that the miners are alive yet,&#8221; it would have helped the situation. Or maybe, as you say, it would have just meant taking the community on an emotional rollercoaster. Who knows? The whole thing is so tragic.</p>
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		<title>By: BD</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2006/01/03/mining-horror/#comment-17783</link>
		<dc:creator>BD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:01:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=1165#comment-17783</guid>
		<description>Actually, Oliver, your post uses the pronoun &quot;they&quot; in a less than concrete fashion (as JWG noted above). I presume that you were emotional and didn&#039;t care to check it, which is understandable.

What a terrible mess.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Oliver, your post uses the pronoun &#8220;they&#8221; in a less than concrete fashion (as JWG noted above). I presume that you were emotional and didn&#8217;t care to check it, which is understandable.</p>
<p>What a terrible mess.</p>
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