AS an Internet poster we can take all sorts of daring and controversial positions and it means nothing. But if we are talking the actual guilt or innocence of people involved in the death of other people, I would want to see the complete picture – not a bunch of random and (even you have to admit) conflicting news reports.

Having said that, I would not argue that the evidence on hand looks bad for the mine. And were I head honcho in charge of mines, I would be pursuing this hot and heavy. But that still does not warrant bypassing due process.

And I am confused. Still sipping my morning coffee, the (left wing) AJC has a feel-good headline that says that 12 miners are alive and only one dead. I need to find out more.

Dugger

When a traffic cop gives you a citation, you are guilty until proven
innocent.

The use of the word ‘alleged’ in the linked article was no doubt
added by an inexperienced editor who wished to be safe.

The fines paid by the company are similar to when you get busted for speeding; an admission of guilt.

from latimes;

“During 2005, the mine was cited for 181 federal violations, totaling $24,155 in fines. At least 96 of those citations were described as “significant and substantial.” Those figures were up substantially from the previous year, when the mine was cited 68 times and fined $9,515. Injuries grew over that period from eight to 14, though no fatalities had been reported at the mine in the last decade.”

What facts would you need?

Surely I should have already deducted your age from your previous posts. In retrospect, I can see the virtuous sense of superiority that comes with advanced age.

As for your “broken window” analogy which surpasses even your own age, to waste my time on its inadequacies is as ridiculous as the article itself. Suffice to say that the anology assumes that businesses best know what to do with the nation’s wealth, not the people. Most arguments against increasing the mimum wage have to do with either concentrating the funds of this great country in the hands of the corporations or the wealthiest 1-5%. The “Flat Tax,” the “Fair Tax,” ending the “Death Tax”…all these share that trait and one other: they are policies that are consistently proposed by the Republican majority. That is why I brought up first-hand experience with miners. Not to insult you, not to insinuate violence – though I profess weakness and I truly apologize – but rather to say that there is a problem, a BIG problem in this country.

Men and women cannot survive on what they are earning. Businesses are not willing to pay living wages because they are not being forced to. This new year marks the 9th consecutive year that the Federal Minimum wage has not budged one cent. Granted, many states have set theirs above this $5.15/hour. West Virginia, where I live now, has not. Unions are largely stripped of their powers, thanks to “activist judges” (to borrow a phrase) from Republican and Democratic administrations alike. Strikes are largely a thing of the past.

I asked if you knew miners for validity and context. Your statement about the awesome power of the “super-powerful” UMWA to prevent layoffs illustrates my point exactly. How many layoffs do you think there have been in the last 30 years? How many miners have lost their way of life forever? Your ignorance is showing, Frank. Mining in West Virginia is already becoming mechanized. It’s part of the reason the state is so desperately poor. Fewer mining jobs = Fewer people with mine money = less money going into other businesses = fewer businesses.

We aren’t going to fix that problem at its nexus; the mechanizing with continue and I don’t think we should stop that. The way to solve it is to have higher-paying jobs for those men to go into. THAT is what I mean.

The abortion discussion will receive no more of my attention because it is without merit and out of context.

208 “ALLEGED” safety violation citations. Not the same as 208 safety violations.

Is it just me, Sadie, or ” Inconvenient little things aren t they, those facts?”

Dugger

Inconvenient little things aren’t they, those facts? Though what I was wondering was, 208 safety violations = how many $$ in campaign contribitions to continue operations without making any changes? Maybe Abramof will be able to give us some idea.

He will talk about it any chance he gets so don’t take it personal.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/09/politics/09coal.html?ex=1249790400&en=f22d6df4cfba5caa&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland

NY Times

Oliver isn’t Bush-bashing, he is in fact citing a currently Bush-run organization–the Dept. of Labor–and saying that the owners of this mine might be criminally negligent.

I don’t care if Sago Mine is owned by Howard Dean. Whoever owns it has some ‘splainin to do.

Oh really? The way I read the rest of your comment is that you are doing just that. At least admit it.

As usual, Orwellian, I respond to long, drawn out, pseudo – intellectual arguments from top to bottom.

If I knew you, this is the point where I would take a swing. I know coal miners. I sincerely doubt you do.

I could eMail you my address, if taking a swing suits your fancy. I’m almost 60, but I’m not afraid of you.
I don’t know any coal miners, and yet I have managed to make it to this ripe old age. I hope you will, too, provided you don’t persist in the habit of “taking swings” at conservatives.

2. My point was that we don’t know if those miners are alive. Yet, we don’t give the same benefit to life in the womb. The fact that you “take offense” doesn’t mean a goddamed thing to me. Or are you winding up for another swing?

3. Your argument that raising the minimum wage puts more money in the economy is called the the “broken window argument” You can read the argument, and learn something, or try to answer this question: Where does the money to pay the minimum wage come from?

4) What I said was that you were ignoring the idea of supply and demand, by suggesting that removing men from coal mining wouldn’t raise the price of coal. And, also, since you made no mention of this “phantom machinery”, who pays for that? And how does one get around the super – powerful Miners’ Union, to lay off miners, and replace them with machines?

And, you started here: Allow me to briefly list a few fallacies to your argument:
You assume that the jobs that I m speaking of are low-skill, know-nothing jobs like working at a fast food restaurant

No, actually, you said it: mining is one of the very, very few decent-paying jobs in the state of West Virginia.

Worker safety shouldn’t be a partisan issue. Should it? Both sides should fight for effective regulation. One could argue that Republicans should care about mine safety even more because most mines are in red states, in red counties.

In this society, profits are usually put ahead of people, and that often results in disasters, like this one in West Virginia.

Ans: facts, not conjecture based on partial evidence

I just don’t know what level of proof you need to proceed.

This is not connected in any way to ‘Bush Hate’ and therefore
no taint. The company who was cited in excess of 200 times
in 2005 sold it recently and left the new company holding the
bag. What would it take for Dugger to become incensed and
pursue any responsible for loss of life?