And Frank, your Authoritarian explanation for war is crap:  War is the pursuit of diplomacy by other means. If that s your definition, then it s clear that for you, diplomacy is never anything more than power games, so war is always justifed so long as it results in a net gain of power for the aggressor.
Perhaps this example from World War II (Oliver’s favorite, you know, the one Roosevelt and Truman won without any help from Allies, or even Republicans) will help:

The Japanese goal was to control an Asian Co - Prosperity Sphere; the Germans’ was to create a Third Holy Roman Empire (”Reich”). Japan’s diplomatic options expired at Pearl Harbor, Germany’s in Poland in 1939.
Both were aggressors, but did they win? No.
Did they acheive their diplomatic goals? No.

War is definitely not is a cathartic exercize for military school graduates, or a money making scheme for big business.

And our country has yet to put any of the people who gave the orders at Abu Ghraib, or Guantanamo, or the secret East European gulags, or ordered the renditions to Syria, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, in jail. So far they have either received medals of honor or promotions.

Nor did I ever say, “if you can t be all things to all people all the time, you shouldn t even try.” That’s a pitiful, defeatist point of view and no self-respecting liberal would ever embrace it.

I said something far different but maybe I didn’t explain it well enough. I said war was the unleashing of our collective id. You reference the DSM but don’t seem to recognize the word “id” so I’ll elaborate — it’s that part of the psyche that is completely unconscious and derived from instinctive needs and drives. The killer inside.

If you are going to take the id out in the world, you better make sure as hell the superego (the carrier of morality) is holding the leash on the other end. This is the reason why, traditionally, society has always held the belief that only the best, most honorable, most faithful men can be trusted with the duty of war. This is not a new idea.

I’m not saying this idea has always been implemented because, obviously, it hasn’t, but this is the principle underlying the Geneva Convention, and all other attempts to codify what can or cannot be done by civilized nations at war.

War is not unleashing a collective Id (is there a collective Id, or are you now mixing personality theorist i.e. Jung and Freud). War is not unconscious, nor does it derive from instinctive needs. It is a very well thought out, thoroughly discussed undertaking that is extraordinarily complex.

It will be impossible to refute your conspiracy theories about abu graib, renditions etc. When you tell me the “people who gave the orders” (who exactly would that be, Bush, Cheney, the Barvarian Illuminati?), got medals, well, I say your imagination has run wild, and more importantly you have no basis in fact.

Finally, you missed my point about Hitler completely. “If we torture and rape, we are torturers and rapists. Period.” Fine, you think in absolutes. As far as your concerned if you torture once, you are now a “torturer”. Fine, but that means that you can’t differentiate between a Hitler, and a private in Abu Ghraib who did less “torturing” than the average fraternity house on any given saturday night.

Sadie, you know absolutely nothing about the military, war or honor, except what you have read about in text books and learned about at whatever liberal arts college spawned your nascent intellect, and it shows.

Understand that I don’t consider you ignorant because we don’t agree about everything. You have thoughtful, well reasoned logic behind your opinions. We might disagree, but at least we can respect well thought out opinions.

Some that post here however, use fallacious logic and twisted facts. I call ignorance when I see it.

Bin Laden is still hiding. I would rather my relatives, friends, or myself, would die trying to kill Bin Laden.

I hear people say that as long as we are fighting them over there then we are safer here. We are not safe here. You cannot safely walk down the street by yourself in most large cities. The real terorists, (gang members who prey on us for our cars, shoes, or anything else they want) they are the real terrorists. We need to seal our borders and deport all illegals who commit crimes. And go in with the National Guard and local police and clear out all the street gangs.

We are back to the leftist screed that if you can’t be all things to all people all the time, you shouldn’t even try. I mean, north korea tortures, why not invade them?

Sadie, put your head back in the sand, the rest of us will contine to protect your right to innocence and ignorance

I know that perfectly well, but I can’t seem to quit you trolls!

And Frank, your Authoritarian explanation for war is crap:  War is the pursuit of diplomacy by other means. If that’s your definition, then it’s clear that for you, diplomacy is never anything more than power games, so war is always justifed so long as it results in a net gain of power for the aggressor.

“And it wasn t the US that attempted to throw the Geneva Conventions out the window, it was the no - nationed, no - uniformed, cowardly, women and children killing terrorists (or do you call them  Middle East Minuteman ?) that gave up their own right to civilized treatment when they chose to act like like animals.”

I shouldn’t be surprised, but again you demonstrate a complete and utter lack of understanding of even the most basic concept of honor. Honor is not about what kind of people our enemies are, it is about what kind of people we are. If we torture and rape, we are torturers and rapists. Period. It doesn’t matter why we’re doing it, or why we think we’re doing it, or how well we mean while we’re doing it. It only matters that we’re doing it.

Don’t you right-wingers ever tire of moral relativism?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/images/0824-01.jpg

There certainly seem to be crosses on most of the headstones

Because a) It has never been a legal document except when liberals need it to advocate civil disobedience.
2) Of course, it doesn’t advocate civil disobedience or “dissent” but rather the right of “a people” to set up their own government, when their beliefs are at odds with their governors — i.e., the aforementioned “freedom” and independence.
3) Thomas Jefferson, and the man from whom he filched a great deal of the Declaration of Independence, John Stuart Mill, were by no means anything like modern day “big government” “anti - military” “high - tax” liberals.

Sounds to me like you went to high school in the 70’s when they were seriously trying to teach that bilge. I was in Southeast Asia, practicing what I preached at the time.

If war is the unleashing of our id, the only thing that can redeem it is honor.
But if it is not, then other things can redeem it, like the winning of freedom (done), the winning of peace (soon), and the winning of proseperity (soon).
And it wasn’t the US that attempted to throw the Geneva Conventions out the window, it was the no - nationed, no - uniformed, cowardly, women and children killing terrorists (or do you call them “Middle East Minuteman”?) that gave up their own right to civilized treatment when they chose to act like like animals.
p.s. I didn’t mean to imply that Ian and DrPedro didn’t “answer” you, because they did, and quite well.

When you start mixing psychobabble with national defense…well, lets just say there are no winners when you try to have a political discussion with someone who probably has a DSM IV Axis II diagnosis……

If you support Bush you dishonor our troops, period. You can t be for them both, it s an either/or proposition.

Just more proof the fringe is taking over the party.

And Frank, I guess you must have missed out on that whole “Declaration of Independence” thing. Course it was written by an unrepentant, starry-eyed liberal, so maybe it’s banned literature among your crowd.

Every one being buried in Arlington is not someone who will die in Iraq tomorrow. Try another maudlin approach to bashing Bush, please.

Fastcheck, save the “This country was founded on dissent” baloney for your next Weatherman’s meeting. This country was founded on freedom and entrepreneurship.