Yesterday, I went to Arlington National Cemetery. I saw JFK’s grave site and the eternal flame, as well as the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier and the intricate changing of the guard associated with it. But what left the biggest impression on me where the headstones. At Arlington, there are literally headstones as far as the eye can see.
And it makes you think – why are those people there? They served their country, and in honor to their service, they are buried on hallowed ground. They’re all there – WWI, WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan… and Iraq, as well as others who served when we weren’t at war.
But before you go on the grounds there’s a historical video telling you about Arlington National Cemetary. One fact that stood out is that at it’s current rate, Arlington will be full by 2025.
We should probably work to stop that from happening any sooner than necessary.
The kurds are apparently fatalistic abut things unraveling in Iraq, as
they are poised to take Kirkuk with detailed plans and goals. (Do ya’
think the US might have considered a ‘plan’, other than staying as
long as it takes?)
The plausible denialists are silent about progress post-elections.
(at what point does positive thinking become delusion?) In the
meantime, we continue to fill body bags with some of the best
we have to offer. It is a pyrrhic victory we strive for, nothing more.
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/special_packages/iraq/13495329.htm
It does make a certain recruiting incentive. The chance to be buried in Arlington cemetary before its full.
Leave it to Ian to take a perfectly reasonable statement and turn it into and excuse for a stupid wisecrack.
http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/5324/casualltiesbymonth1zc.gif
If you don’t like how our country is being run, then please by all means, move to France.
Ian, my father is buried there; he’s been buried there since I was two.
If you think putting other children’s fathers in the ground, other Mother’s husbands, you’re a chilling piece of work.
If you don’t like free speech, please, by all means, leave. Go where you will be happy and quiet.
Ian cannot help himself. Kids say the darndest things…
16, first, thanks for your fathers service.
Secondly, I wasn’t trying to put down the service of anyone who gave their life for this country, if anyone is, it’s Oliver. He is taking a position that if you die in the line of battle — perhaps in this current war — you wasted your life just to be buried. I don’t think he realizes how much he is disrespecting those who currently serve.
Remember, it was Robert E. Lee’s front yard originally. That’s right. America’s greatest traitor gave his front yard to the nation to serve as a cemetery. I believe there are numerous Union soldiers buried there as well.
Oliver, it will probably happen anyway, whether there are more wars or not. There are so many people alive today who are entitled to burial in Arlington – thousands of World War II, Korean War, and Vietnam War veterans. My father (World War II) wants to be buried in Arlington, and my mother does also.
Ian, Why should I move to France because of a recruiting incentive?
“I wasn t trying to put down the service of anyone who gave their life for this country, if anyone is, it s Oliver”
That’s lame even for you, Ian. Face it, you were being an asshole and you got caught. Suck it up and move on, when you fall back on the “but he started it” thing it just makes you look worse.
SadieB, what are you trying to say? That I was dishonoring the service when several members of my family have served / are serving?
I’ll say it, you were dishonoring the service. Your spitting on everything those soldiers were fighting for by telling someone to “Move to France if you don’t like it here”. This country was founded on dissent. I’m going to spare you the invective because obviously you are a immature child, but what you said was insulting to what this country is all about.
If you support Bush you dishonor our troops, period. You can’t be for them both, it’s an either/or proposition.
Why? I’ll explain. War is a terrible thing. It’s an unleashing of our collective id and for this reason alone it should never be entered into unless all other options have failed. But that’s not what happened in this case, was it? No, this is a war of convenience, or vanity, or greed — we never will know what it really was for. Maybe it was just fearfulness, pure and simple.
Strike one is the why of the war, but strike two is the how. If war is the unleashing of our id, the only thing that can redeem it is honor. People are capable of showing great honor under the conditions of war. But again, not this time. We now know the Bush administration acted immediately to throw the Geneva Convention out the window, and with it any and all claim Americans might have had to honor and the higher moral ground. It will be the work of generations to reclaim our good name in the world, now.
There are military cemetaries all over the country, in case you didn’t know. And, World War II veterans are dying at the rate of, I believe, 1000 plus a year.
Every one being buried in Arlington is not someone who will die in Iraq tomorrow. Try another maudlin approach to bashing Bush, please.
Fastcheck, save the “This country was founded on dissent” baloney for your next Weatherman’s meeting. This country was founded on freedom and entrepreneurship.
Sadie you are one of the fabulous reasons that the democrats as they are constructed today will never return to power in this country.
Thanks!
Funny neither ian nor pedro have a comeback for me …..
And Frank, I guess you must have missed out on that whole “Declaration of Independence” thing. Course it was written by an unrepentant, starry-eyed liberal, so maybe it’s banned literature among your crowd.
Just more proof the fringe is taking over the party.
Sadie I can’t possible have a comeback for someone who believes that war is a releasing of our collective id.
When you start mixing psychobabble with national defense…well, lets just say there are no winners when you try to have a political discussion with someone who probably has a DSM IV Axis II diagnosis……
SadieB: I have a “comeback” for you: Your pseudo – Freudian explanation for war is crap. “War is the pursuit of diplomacy by other means.”
No, this is a war of convenience, or vanity, or greed we never will know what it really was for
No, SadieB, you will never know what it was for, and it will be your fault — your denial, your Bush hatred. Historians, political scientists, Arabists, all will know “what it was for”, but you will never know.
But, in typical liberal fashion, if the great SadieB doesn’t know why, then there is no reason, right, Sadie?
If war is the unleashing of our id, the only thing that can redeem it is honor.
But if it is not, then other things can redeem it, like the winning of freedom (done), the winning of peace (soon), and the winning of proseperity (soon).
And it wasn’t the US that attempted to throw the Geneva Conventions out the window, it was the no – nationed, no – uniformed, cowardly, women and children killing terrorists (or do you call them “Middle East Minuteman”?) that gave up their own right to civilized treatment when they chose to act like like animals.
p.s. I didn’t mean to imply that Ian and DrPedro didn’t “answer” you, because they did, and quite well.
BTW, Oliver, next time visit Quantico, or the Viet Nam veterans’ memorial.
SadieB: Are you referring to the American Declaration of Independence?
Because a) It has never been a legal document except when liberals need it to advocate civil disobedience.
2) Of course, it doesn’t advocate civil disobedience or “dissent” but rather the right of “a people” to set up their own government, when their beliefs are at odds with their governors — i.e., the aforementioned “freedom” and independence.
3) Thomas Jefferson, and the man from whom he filched a great deal of the Declaration of Independence, John Stuart Mill, were by no means anything like modern day “big government” “anti – military” “high – tax” liberals.
Sounds to me like you went to high school in the 70’s when they were seriously trying to teach that bilge. I was in Southeast Asia, practicing what I preached at the time.
I am not sure what they were referring to, but
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/images/0824-01.jpg
There certainly seem to be crosses on most of the headstones
I love how OReilly and Cheney both asserted that there were crosses on all the graves at Arlington that they had both ’seen themselves.’ OReilly got really mad and started arguing with a caller one time who said there were not crosses at Arlington.
“lets just say there are no winners when you try to have a political discussion with someone who probably has a DSM IV Axis II diagnosis& & ”
I know that perfectly well, but I can’t seem to quit you trolls!
And Frank, your Authoritarian explanation for war is crap: War is the pursuit of diplomacy by other means. If that’s your definition, then it’s clear that for you, diplomacy is never anything more than power games, so war is always justifed so long as it results in a net gain of power for the aggressor.
“And it wasn t the US that attempted to throw the Geneva Conventions out the window, it was the no – nationed, no – uniformed, cowardly, women and children killing terrorists (or do you call them Middle East Minuteman ?) that gave up their own right to civilized treatment when they chose to act like like animals.”
I shouldn’t be surprised, but again you demonstrate a complete and utter lack of understanding of even the most basic concept of honor. Honor is not about what kind of people our enemies are, it is about what kind of people we are. If we torture and rape, we are torturers and rapists. Period. It doesn’t matter why we’re doing it, or why we think we’re doing it, or how well we mean while we’re doing it. It only matters that we’re doing it.
Don’t you right-wingers ever tire of moral relativism?
Spare me the self – flaggelation, SadieB. “If we torture and rape, we are torturers and rapists.” If you torture and rape, you are a torturer and a rapist.” I don’t believe in collective guilt, and I damn sure don’t believe that the only thing that redeems war is honor. Thst sounds like some kind of “Four Feathers” BS. But war. like life, isn’t a novel.
Save it for the Judge, Frank, and I know you know who I mean.
The funny thing is, Sadie and her ilk , because of their moral absolutism, can’t distinguish between a Hitler or Saddam and a country that puts torturers in jail (that is where all the Abu Graib perpetrators are right?)
We are back to the leftist screed that if you can’t be all things to all people all the time, you shouldn’t even try. I mean, north korea tortures, why not invade them?
Sadie, put your head back in the sand, the rest of us will contine to protect your right to innocence and ignorance
I would not call other people stupid or ignorant just because they do not see things the way I see them. Some people blindly support Bush because he is a Republican, or he gave them a tax cut, or he is supposed to be pro life and a born again Christian. In my opinion, and the opinion of about 75 percent of the people in this country, Bush did the right thing by sending troops to Afghanistan to track down Bin Laden and kill as many terrorists as possible. But, before completing that mission, he decided that Sadam was a threat because most people believed that he possessed WMD. So a large number of troops were sent to Iraq to overthrow Sadam before he ws able to unleash his weapons on us. But, I believe if there were WMD, Sadam was able to either bury them in the desert or was able to transport them out of Iraq before we invaded. Once we had all those troops there then the insurgency began and Bush underestimated how many were willing to commit suicide to kill a small number of Iraqi civilians or American soldiers. Bush felt like it would be more honorable to stay the course instead of cutting and running. So 2000 dead Americans, 15,000 severely injured Americans, and estimated 30,000 dead Iraqi civilians and the objective is to bring democracy to the Iraqi people. Some people think it was worth the sacrifice, including a majority of the families of the dead and injured Americans.
Bin Laden is still hiding. I would rather my relatives, friends, or myself, would die trying to kill Bin Laden.
I hear people say that as long as we are fighting them over there then we are safer here. We are not safe here. You cannot safely walk down the street by yourself in most large cities. The real terorists, (gang members who prey on us for our cars, shoes, or anything else they want) they are the real terrorists. We need to seal our borders and deport all illegals who commit crimes. And go in with the National Guard and local police and clear out all the street gangs.
Great post, and it demonstrates a difference of opinion from myself.
Understand that I don’t consider you ignorant because we don’t agree about everything. You have thoughtful, well reasoned logic behind your opinions. We might disagree, but at least we can respect well thought out opinions.
Some that post here however, use fallacious logic and twisted facts. I call ignorance when I see it.
You have just stated your entire problem.
War is not unleashing a collective Id (is there a collective Id, or are you now mixing personality theorist i.e. Jung and Freud). War is not unconscious, nor does it derive from instinctive needs. It is a very well thought out, thoroughly discussed undertaking that is extraordinarily complex.
It will be impossible to refute your conspiracy theories about abu graib, renditions etc. When you tell me the “people who gave the orders” (who exactly would that be, Bush, Cheney, the Barvarian Illuminati?), got medals, well, I say your imagination has run wild, and more importantly you have no basis in fact.
Finally, you missed my point about Hitler completely. “If we torture and rape, we are torturers and rapists. Period.” Fine, you think in absolutes. As far as your concerned if you torture once, you are now a “torturer”. Fine, but that means that you can’t differentiate between a Hitler, and a private in Abu Ghraib who did less “torturing” than the average fraternity house on any given saturday night.
Sadie, you know absolutely nothing about the military, war or honor, except what you have read about in text books and learned about at whatever liberal arts college spawned your nascent intellect, and it shows.
Ummm, no again, pedro. And a little advice? Once you reach the point of arguing your side is “not as bad as” Hitler, Saddam, etc., you’ve already lost.
And our country has yet to put any of the people who gave the orders at Abu Ghraib, or Guantanamo, or the secret East European gulags, or ordered the renditions to Syria, Egypt, Saudia Arabia, in jail. So far they have either received medals of honor or promotions.
Nor did I ever say, “if you can t be all things to all people all the time, you shouldn t even try.” That’s a pitiful, defeatist point of view and no self-respecting liberal would ever embrace it.
I said something far different but maybe I didn’t explain it well enough. I said war was the unleashing of our collective id. You reference the DSM but don’t seem to recognize the word “id” so I’ll elaborate — it’s that part of the psyche that is completely unconscious and derived from instinctive needs and drives. The killer inside.
If you are going to take the id out in the world, you better make sure as hell the superego (the carrier of morality) is holding the leash on the other end. This is the reason why, traditionally, society has always held the belief that only the best, most honorable, most faithful men can be trusted with the duty of war. This is not a new idea.
I’m not saying this idea has always been implemented because, obviously, it hasn’t, but this is the principle underlying the Geneva Convention, and all other attempts to codify what can or cannot be done by civilized nations at war.
SadieB: Save it for the Judge, Frank, and I know you know who I mean.
Actually, I don’t know what you mean. Perhaps you should explain.
Do you envision long lines of Bush supporters heading “south” on Judgement Day?
Silly lady.