Spy net may pull in all U.S. calls overseas
The National Security Agency, in carrying out President Bush’s order to intercept the international phone calls and e-mails of Americans suspected of links to al-Qaida, has probably been using computers to monitor all other Americans’ international communications as well, according to specialists familiar with the workings of the NSA.
Next time I call my mom in Jamaica, I guess I should tell the NSA agents listening in “hi”. What the…
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Oliver,
I do find this to be troubling, and I am not going to say that the current OPTEMPO of our war on Terror should be a justification for everything. But, I will say that massive streams of data can be captured, but it takes a human being to filter through them and identify those pieces of information that threaten us. I don’t think that they will be interested in what you say to your mother in Jamaica, nor will they worry about my calls to my friends in Europe and other places. But, if you were born in Syria and came here on a student visa, dropped out of school but took flight lessons, and then went on vacation to Afghanistan twice in the last year I would probably watch what I said on the telephone.
Of course, I think that this “wire-tapping” would only be something that we could use to prove that terrorists were conspiring “after” the fact. I really don’t see someone saying over the phone, “Yes, it is a go….Tuesday at 3:30 we are going to…..”
The question that remains is whether or not our safety concerns are a counter-balance to the apparent infringement upon our rights this wire tap is. Also, is the fact that our information is “captured” an infringement upon our rights, or does it become one once a person mics up and listens to the captured data. To tell you the truth, I don’t know.
Translation:
I’m a scared little pussy who will let Bush and the daddy party take away my privacy and civil liberties for an illusion of safety that isn’t real because they’re wasting their time in Iraq and not running down real terrorists.
What a pathetic group we Americans have become. Our founding fathers would be revulsed.
–
What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death! — Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775
I’m a little torn by these revelations as well, but I always thought that this stuff was going on in some way, shape or form. The libertarian in me bristles about the possibility of our rights being violated, but the situation with Islamic terrorists wanting to perpetrate great harm on our society makes me somewhat willing to think a little harder on this.
I do feel that if we do suffer another attack on our soil, there will follow the usual cacophony of hand-wringing and partisan accusations thrown at the President and the Administration for not “connecting the dots”, and a fact-finding commision will want to know why. It’s a no-win situation for him.
Translation:
I am totally incapable of a thoughtful and rational discussion with anyone who may possibly disagree with me and will therefore call him names as I wrongly translate his words.
“But, if you were born in Syria and came here on a student visa, dropped out of school but took flight lessons, and then went on vacation to Afghanistan twice in the last year I would probably watch what I said on the telephone.”
Fantastic. Not one of the activities, including being born for god sakes, is a crime, but nevertheless: “Watch what you say.” Even if you put it altogether you don’t have a crime. But still: “Watch what you say.” Ultimately what you have here is a pattern of behavior that suggests there might be probable cause for further investigation. If an NSA agent has probable cause they can get a FISA warrant, and even get it retroactively. The point being that the hypothetical person described above can be spied on within the law and yet the Bush administration broke the law anyway. Why?
“It s a no-win situation for him.”
This is also fantastic. Yes, fuck the Constitution, our primary concern should be whether the President is in a tough political situation. Do you want to know what a really no-win situation is? Waking up one morning to find out that the Consitution and the separation of powers doesn’t mean shit anymore.
The Right has tried to argue that 2,000 plus military deaths in Iraq is no big deal, not when you compare it to WWII or Vietnam or whatever. It’s a small price for freedom they say. So we now have a situation where soldiers can die in defense of the Constitution but let one civilian die and fuck it, let’s scrap the whole damn thing. That’s what you seem to be saying Sam. My skin and your skin are worth more than the Bill of Rights. That’s a pretty craven attitude as far as I’m concerned. But you go even further, for you Bush’s political reputation is worth more than the Bill of Rights. Like I said, fantastic.
Sam, I think you raise an important point.
The giant red flag that’s waving in my face over this issue has two sides. The one side is the basic issue that you raised, which is the possibility of our rights being violated. I say our rights were already being violated when the Bush administration began illegally spying on us. They violated our rights when they locked up a U.S. citizen without any shred of due process. As I expected, the accusations the Bushies made against that citizen were completely dropped once the Bushies were forced to obey the law. Now, maybe some of us can comfort ourselves by suggesting that Jose Padilla was a bad man who had it coming, but does that change the truth that our constitution– the symbol of our supposed values that supposedly separate us from the ‘terrorists’ we are supposed to be fighting– was pissed on?
Anyway, there is the other side of the flag. You allude to the Bush administration’s alleged failure to ‘connect the dots.’ Well, I submit that the Bush administration’s 9/11 ‘failure’ was a case of criminal negligence, at least. Their failure to protect the nation had nothing to do with being slowed down by legal obstacles. The Bush administration had a shitload of leads right in its face, and a plethora of warning signs, but it chose to ignore all of that. That’s why 9/11 happened. Keep in mind, the attacks were carried out by a bunch of guys with boxcutters and balls. There was no magic, no dirty bomb, no flying anthrax sprayer. This was a plan that was begging to be broken up, but a total lack of leadership and purpose at the highest levels of our government left the door wide open.
Here’s the million-dollar question, Sam: are we supposed to give Orwellian police powers to the same assholes who left us unguarded for the worst foreign terrorist attack in our history? As you’re a libertarian, Sam, I don’t need to tell you that this could lead us directly to the worst possible outcome of giving free reign to Big Government. I share your concerns about security, but I’m not willing to give up my liberties in exchange for the illusion of safety. The Bush administration’s responses to 9/11 have done nothing to make this country safer; if anything, the Bushies have concentrated on solidifying their power and taking (financial and political) care of their friends. If there hasn’t been another attack on our soil, it’s because our nation’s law enforcement has been (legally) paying attention since then, and, more importantly, because the so-called terrorists haven’t really tried to attack us again. Good thing, too, because with all those resources tied up in Iraq and Afghanistan, we’d be hard-pressed to handle a real attack (see: Hurricane Katrina).
All this tapping of phones and data mining is a HUGE waste of taxpayer dollars. A much more efficient method would be to install a “third eye” on everyone at birth (and force adults to have them retroactively implanted), which transmits all you see and hear (temporary headgear available for international visitors) - or lose citizenship . No more worries about who talked to whom, or what was said. No more terrorists. Period.
And the bloopers would spawn a whole new genre of television viewing.
But we’d be safe!
For all the “Bush spied - civil liberties died” blather on the left, it is worth noting:
Democrat Congressional leadership has yet to issue a simple statement asking for the NSA program to be immediately terminated and the collected data to be completely and permanently destroyed. If it is such an awful, catastrophic, evil program, shouldn’t it be ended right now?
Where is Hillary? She is supposed to be our next President and she doesn’t want to tell us how she will accomplish terror prevention differently? Give me a break.
Even the lowly Democrat kooks like Sheila Jackson Lee have kept quiet about this.
We haven’t heard a word from Slick Willie. We know that he craves time in front of the TV cameras, and he has been placed in the middle of this story due to his insistance in 1994 that the President has the authority to order physical searches without a warrant. Why isn’t he out there explaining how his position was perfectly legal and could never be used to justifiy what George W. Bush did?
In short, the only thing coming from the Democrats is hot air; no policies, no positions, no plans. Same old same old.
Yawn.
You’ve got to love these winger trolls.
Did you get all hot and bothered over the siege of the Branch Davidians in Waco, or did you think those gun-wielding kooks had it coming from Clinton’s domestic troops? Did you get your edible panties in a bunch over Wen Ho Lee, or did you just trust that the Clinton administration had every reason to smear and railroad a completely innocent man? Or did you even pay attention to any of that while you were calling down evil upon Clinton’s penis?
Now, there’s no doubting that there should be more of an uproar about this from Dems and well as Republicans. However, to suggest that no one is saying anything is false:
Russ Feingold: Fight terror and still protect civil liberties
Letter From John Conyers Advising the President of Censure and Steps to Begin Special Committee Investigation
Personally, I’m no fan of the Democratic Party such as it exists today. But to suggest that they are guilty of something because the Bush administration broke the law is ridiculous. The Dems are in the minority in both the House and the Senate, and they don’t have the votes to impeach the pResident. I’d still love to see them try, but we know it would take Republican cooperation to make it happen. As far as having “a plan,” the Dems don’t need to come up with one. There was already “a plan” in place, one that was codified into the laws that the Bushies broke.
Bottom line: what’s your f-cking point? Do you even have one, or is this just another case of a winger stapling smugness and stupidity together in public?
So why are you here? Feeling threatened? The SS Abramoff is streaming right for you, are you going to go over the side like the other rats, or hold out for rescue?
“No blowjobs on the horizon sir; we’re sunk!”
Next year, when the republicans have returned to their rightful place as the minority party, let’s all sing them a rousing chorus of the old tv show theme song “welcome back”.
Hey alex, here is a point….
Maybe it ain’t illegal?
Maybe the dems don’t want to get out in front of something they know is OK?
Maybe that is why the President stood up immediately and said, “yup, I authorized it alrighty…”?
How else can you explain that the rabid leftists that run the demo party haven’t already called for articles of impeachment be drawn up? I mean, if this is SO obviously un-constitutional…here is their smoking gun for getting Chimpy McBushHitler out of 1600 PENN ave, eh?
Hmmmm…..makes one wonder doesn’t it? What DO those DOJ lawyers know about all this Constitution-stuff anyway? I mean it’s just what they study THEIR WHOLE FREAKING LIVES FOR, you think maybe they have a point here?
The left wing in america is so ignorant. They believe that because the Bill of Rights said that men are created equal it actually means that each one’s uneducated opinion is as valuable as the next. Not so much….
Thats alright kids, just get WAY in front of this so we can throw it back in your face during the NEXT election cycle…BWHAHAHAHAH
Another sh-t-spewing, winger peacock struts across the line of fire. What to do…?
Maybe it ain t illegal?
Maybe the dems don t want to get out in front of something they know is OK?
Maybe that is why the President stood up immediately and said, yup, I authorized it alrighty& ?
Bush was merely drawing a line in the sand, daring the Dems to do what he knows they can’t get the votes to do: impeach his sorry ass. As we saw with Monicagate, impeachment is a purely political process and has nothing to do with rule of law; even if Bush kills and eats babies, it will still take a number of Republican congressmen to vote for impeachment.
Bush’s DOJ lawyers might have been studying their whole lives, but, as we can see from the example of “Torquemada” Gonzales, they’re not trying to make sure the Bush administration’s behavior is legal. They do their best to help the Bushies get away with as much illegal sh-t as possible.
And if you think the Democratic Party is run by ‘rabid leftists,’ then you really have been getting high on your own (noxious gas) supply. That, in addition to their being in the minority in both houses of Congress, is why we haven’t seen the articles drawn up.
As far as your smug prediction about 2006, well, that all depends. God knows there are quite a few ignorant birdbrains out there voting Rethug. However, some states have caught on to the Rethug election scams perpetrated in 2000 thru 2004, and let’s face it: you backward assholes are in the minority. You need to cheat big to win. Unless the Bushies can pull another fear extravaganza out of their hat, all the gerrymandering, gay-bashing, and coded racism in the world won’t keep the Rethugs from losing seats in 2006. Furthermore, I’d really like to see who the Rethugs put up for the White House in ‘08. The Dems, incompetent pansies they’ve been for the last five years, would have to try really hard to not win the White House from the Rethugs.
I’m guessing you backward methane-breathers will be trying to scare up a new sex scandal by the end of ‘09…
Yea, your right, impeachment is nothing but a political process….but what about disbarment? Perjury? Just curious.
Alex this is just another of the leftist personal ad hominem excuses for a political argument. It is impossible to refute statements like “They do their best to help the Bushies get away with as much illegal sh-t as possible.” and “I m guessing you backward methane-breathers will be trying to scare up a new sex scandal by the end of 09& ”
And since “(we) backward assholes” are in a minority, what up with all the R’s after people’s names in congress and the white house, huh?
So you are saying that the democrats refuse to put something to a vote on principal, knowing that they would lose? Hmmm, if this is SO CLEARLY illegal, why not throw it out there for the American People to see? Oh yea, cause they are “ignorant birdbrains…..”
You are a brilliant orator Alex, no question. I sure would hate to go up against you in debate club…
Nasty rhetoric ain’t going to help the leftists get elected Alex, even the “backward assholes” and “ignorant birdbrains” will see through that.
ROFLMAO
but what about disbarment? Perjury?
I didn’t know Bush was a lawyer; before politics, wasn’t he just a perenially failing businessman? Also, has he been put on trial for anything? Other than taking the oath of office, was he ever under oath at any congressional hearing? What’s your point?
Hmmm, if this is SO CLEARLY illegal, why not throw it out there for the American People to see?
It is out there, and it is quite clear. I guess some just refuse to accept it. I can understand, though; it’s not like Bush lied about a blowjob. Stupid pr-cks.
Nasty rhetoric ain t going to help the leftists get elected
I would like to see them try it, for once. It seems to work just fine for the Rethugs. Actually, I’d like to see more than a handful of actual leftists run for office. That would be a first.
ROFLMAO
Yes, I’m sure you get a good laugh at this:
Casualties in Iraq: the Human Cost of Occupation
Oh, I get it now! Haahaaaa!! Neo-con suckhole winger humor:
Q: What do you call a U.S. soldier who gives his life in a draft-dodger’s war?
A: Sucker! Haahaaaa!
Yeah, that’s some f-ckin’-A funny sh-t, there, pedro. It’ll really be funny if you weedbenders, chickenhawks, and other assorted rubes get your 2-4 more years of it, eh?
uh….yea, sure alex.
Nice having this intellectual discussion with you, I’ll check back after your serum lithium levels have gone up a bit…..
Happy New Year
uh& .yea, sure alex.
Excellent point Dr. Scholl. By the way, if you and the other conservatives should develop a ‘moral’ compass and some ethical standards, other than
your standard bulwark in a crisis; “It’s legal”, perhaps you will emit
some non-Nixonian pheromones and stop
stinkin’ the joint up!
All that must be winger-speak for “uncle”; seriously, if you wanted to have an intellectual discussion, you should have brought your intellect instead of lame Bushie talking points.
I swear, this is like swatting mosquitos in late November in Chicago. Were it not so satisfying, it would get tedious.
Hear, hear, Leo. Moreover, the fact is that the big excuse for the Bushies’ push for a total secret surveillance state– 9/11– occurred because there was too much cloak-and-dagger sh-t, not because there wasn’t enough. That, and a complete failure of leadership from the Bushies, is what left the doors wide open for the hijackers. Criminal negligence and incompetence is what these jackals have given us, and we want to give them more power over our lives?
I marvel at the stupidity and cowardice of those who have the nerve to proudly beat their chests while begging for more intrusive government. “Conservatives.” Hah! What a bunch of hypocritical chickensh-ts. You can’t expect ethics or even good sense from these people; all you can expect is a bunch of nonsensical gas and regurgitated Rovian talking points.
Fog Fact of the Year - the Big Lie Goes On
Wow, I can see your jugular veins bulging from here! The raw hate and anger…
It is going to be fun to watch you leftists implode as Iraq gets better, the economy continues to improve, there are no further terrorist attacks on US soil and the republicans continue to maintain their majority. It’s going to be just like the fall of the Berlin Wall…all the lefties crying over the loss of the “workers paradise…”
And us fat cat republicans just sitting back in our leather club chairs in our smoking jackets enjoying another mighty swig of our superlative single-malt scotch….What a country!
I don’t hate conservatives, I hate the sin!
It is going to be fun to watch you leftists implode as Iraq gets better…
…It s going to be just like the fall of the Berlin Wall&
In lieu of laughing, I just farted. Oh, but another corner has been turned, and the last Ba’athist remnants– oh, I farted again.
Violence Flares Up Across Iraq
Iraqi election slightly less corrupt than last few in U.S., but that’s not saying much
Bush’s Game of Fiscal Chicken
Nuclear Clouds Gather Over Asia
Yes, all the above are reasons to open a bottle of bubbly and toast the future.
single-malt scotch doesn’t have any bubbles you cretin….!
LOL