On many economic issues, I tend to side with the DLC versus the more traditional elements of the Democratic Party, but it’s increasingly clear that without Bill Clinton to hide behind there isn’t a whole lot of there “there” to the DLC. CEO (I know, right?) Al From defends “Hanoi Joe” Lieberman:
There’s currently an orchestrated effort underway to make Sen. Joe Lieberman into some sort of a pariah because of his views on the Iraq War. That’s wrong. Republicans may try to impose strict litmus tests, but an inclusive Democratic Party should not.
There’s plenty of room for debate on how to succeed in Iraq and in the war on terror. We should be a party that leads that debate, not stifles it.
That’s ironic for two reasons.
1. Lieberman is the one who made himself the pariah. While some of us didn’t think he brought much to the presidential ticket, we went out and voted for him as part of the presidential team with Al Gore. He responded by becoming the media’s go-to guy for stabbing Democrats in the back. Al Gore, John Kerry, and Howard Dean are just a few of his fellow Democrats who have been on Lieberman’s hit parade. Why does he do it? My pet theory is that Lieberman is still licking his wounds from being roundly rejected by the party in ‘03-’04, never seriously being considered as presidential caliber. Then again, the guy could just be a dick.
2. Lieberman is the one who issued the edict last week that we shouldn’t have any sort of debate or dissent on the Iraqi war. It was Hanoi Joe who said that to “undermine” the president was verboten – nevermind that it is the president’s own words and actions that have undermined the authority of his office.
Look, Bill Clinton made the DLC — not the other way around. They play this increasingly idiotic game of telling Democratic candidates to trend to the right, then when they lose the general election they upbraid them for not being right wing enough (see Gore, Kerry). On many issues the DLC increasingly resembles the (miniscule) moderate wing of the Republican party, tacking to the right of even the Blue Dog Democrats – the most conservative contingent of the DNC (please note that these guys somehow happen to be in the minority of their party but don’t make a living at sticking a shiv in day-in and day-out). Right about now they’re flailing, in the face of a progressive movement that is building a foundation for electoral victory that is less reliant on another Bill Clinton coming around.
If they truly are interested in the future of the Democratic party (an open question, quite frankly), they’d do well to quit playing big brother to Hanoi Joe and bring their heads out of the clouds and into the real world.
They play this increasingly idiotic game of telling Democratic candidates to trend to the right, then when they lose the general election they upbraid them for not being right wing enough [empasis added] (see Gore, Kerry)
Well, Duh!
Pray tell, Oliver, share with us a few words about the “progressive movement that is building a foundation for electoral victory.” Please.
Personally, I can’t wait until the whole Democratic Party is entrenched on the left.
Then we’ll see where the “mainstream” of America is.
Then we’ll see where the “bias” of the MSM is.
Then we’ll see the end of the Democratic Party.
They should be irrlelvant, but Hillary is still considered a leading contender for the Presidential nomination (sigh).
As for Holy Joe – he was Gore’s biggest mistake.
Pray tell, Frank, share with us a few words about the compassionate conservative” movement that has built a foundation for pyrrhic electoral victory. Please.
Personally, I can t wait until the few holdouts in Republican Party are entrenched in James Dobson’s ass.
Then we ll see where the mainstream of America isn’t.
Then we ll see another few decades of Democratic majorities.
Because if you really represent the majority, Frank, God help us all.
May I ask again what is with the “Hanoi Joe” moniker? Are you trying to be ironicle? Or did I miss when Lieberman was shown on TV building IED’s with the terrorists?
I like J.Lieberman i think hes honest and hes not faking his convictions like we all know the Clintons did for years. Go ahead and put Hillary on the ticket and will loose again. Furthermore What happen to this country and the Great America who desolves dictators and helps people not be murdered by them and put in massive graves some thousands even buried alive?! Should we have let Hitler go, so we could all be speaking German right now?? Also, Zerkaweeke whose been Bin Laddins right hand man for years has been killed inside Iraq!! Im glad we went to Iraq and Sadamns sons were executed because they were crazier than their father!! No Ones ever gonna vote for any Dem whose gonna continue to whine , blame and complain get some backbone be honest and admit that the things that have been done needed to be done!! Were Americans for Gods sake lets start acting like it We Our the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave!
Is there any way we can throw Joe out of the Democratic party?
Not only is Joe in the pocket of the right wing, he’s also a top lieutenant of the morality police. That’s two strikes against him for me.
Aw, leave Holy Joe alone.
You know what his one big crime was? During the recount fiasco, he went on TV and caved on the phony “Dems are trying to disenfranchise the military” hoax.
I don’t think that single moment was crucial to the outcome, but it seemed to be kind of a turning point–and a very visible one, at that. From that point on, the eventual outcome seemed pretty much inevitable.
If it wasn’t for that, we’d still grumble about some of Lieberman’s actions, but I don’t think there’d be the kind of feed-him-to-the-wolves mentality we’re seeing now.
John S. What is your problem?
Do you have a comment to make regarding this post?
Fact-I don’t agree. At some point, there must be a political expression of the basic point that this country cannot militarily exercise itself at will against largely defenceless countries that don’t fit our idea of how they should be. There were a dozen ways to handle Iraq other than chaos, murder, sectarianization, and destruction. Bush and his gang have shown nothing but contempt for anything or anybody who doesn’t support their ‘war,’ never mind the lies, deceit, and manipulation. If Joe wants to throw his unthinking, non-critical weight behind lies and murder, AND suggest that everyone else do the same, then he should definitely go to where his message will be heard and appreciated. My basic point is this: by helping to maintain a mythical ‘middle,’ he betrays a system that survives on difference. I think the intellectual dissonance of his position doesn’t allow him to play the role he needs to be playing.
No, Frankie, conservatism isn’t going down the drain. Just this particularly heinous, theocratically based, autocratically inclined version of it, which I really wouldn’t call conservatism at all, but rather, as anyone who’s paying attention can see, a big fucking con. And like all those who’ve been conned, denial will be the behavior that is engaged when the obviousness of the con becomes clear. Self concept and all. And I think you should check your voting patterns, buddy. Where are the big margins of the Reagan years? Hmmmmm…..
Steven, I see what you’re saying, but Lieberman is right on most issues- except for Iraq. There is room for someone like Lieberman in the Democratic party. However, Holy Joe has to spend more time talking about the issues on which he agrees with the Democratic party and not the issues where he doesn’t agree.
But see I don’t see it as the “middle”, Joe is wrong on ONE issue, IMO. Granted, it is an important one, probably the most important issue. I will not be shedding any tears if he loses the primary in ‘06.
Joe is from the old school of Senator, one who puts compromise over ideals. We certainly have enough Senators who bring the fight directly to the president. Put it another way, if Joe was right on Iraq, but wrong on choice, like Bob Casey Jr.
(Santorum’s nemesis in PA), or Harry Reid(, would that be better? If he was right on Iraq, but wrong on the bankruptcy bill like Biden, would that be better? Iraq isn’t the only issue here.
Joe needs to keep a lid on it with the press- but remember he is an experienced, powerful Senator that won a VP election not too long ago. He is one of the first the press (always wanting to burn Democrats) will seek out.
I am screaming at the TV when he is on Sunday morning too, but there are REAL dino’s like Ben Nelson and Landrieu for me to worry about Joe.
Joe Lieberman could, and perhaps should, be, a moderate Republican. They do exist, you know.
I know they do. And I think that Joe does everyone, including himself, a disservice, by calling himself a Democrat. He isn’t. The only reason he can even begin to qualify is because of the deliberate obliteration of the center by the neo-right.
It’s patently obvious that the likes of Lieberman occupy the now obliterated space once marked by the socially liberal and fiscally conservative “Rockefeller” moderate Republican, a type that has been driven out (see James Jeffords, et al.) of the neo-right’s gallop to extremist irrelevance. Keep your death grip on your withering theocratic autocracy, Frank. Please. The more deadwood that goes down with the ship, the better.
StevenB: You’re not suggesting that, as conservatives get more and more votes everywhere in the nation, including the Presidency, that it is conservatism that’s going down the drain?
And save the “theocratic autocracy” for your buddies on the left. They might buy it.
The same goes for Smokin’ Joe, for that matter. He is an insult as a Democrat, but he would speak for a large percentage of now isolated moderate Republicans. It is not so much a matter of his being demonized by true Dems as it is a matter of how he can best serve his country. It seems as thought he clings to an image that just doesn’t fit, through ego or perhaps necessity, and by doing so, he betrays on several levels. He betrays the basic idea of independent thought and action that is the basis of liberal thought. He betrays the moderate conservative who could really use his representation, and with whom Joe most closely identifies. In case Joe hasn’t noticed, the center has been nuked, and he should either declare as a Republican, or show some real balls (again, see Jeffords) and go independent. As far as Oliver’s DLC points, he’s spot on, and I highly recommend the article in Washington Monthly of January 2005 detailing the DLC’s history and reasons for their pervasive incompetence.
StevenB: are you JadeMold in disguise? Calling me Frankie will get you nowhere. I have done nothing to incur your enmity or disrepect, so I expect to be called by the name I have chosen.
While most of your comment is nonsense, I must disagree with your characterization of the voting numbers:
Below is a site where you will find the total votes received by the top 20 candidates, effective 2002.
http://www.presidentsusa.net/popularvote.html
Adding on GW Bush’s votes for 2004
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/president/
Puts him right alongside Richard Nixon, who is No. 1, on the list.
And that doesn’t include Congressional victories, Gubernatorial victories and State legislatures.
And, oh, I’m not your fucking “buddy.”
Please stick to the subject in the future, and we can avoid these unpleasantries.
I know Dugger, remember that time when the Democrats held open the vote on the prescription drug benefit for HOURS so that moderate Democrats could be threatened if didn’t conform to the party line?
What? That wasn’t Democrats? Never mind.
C’mon, Oliver, you know who they are: They vote with the Democrats on domestic issues..
Paul Weyrich calls them liberal republicans, but I wouldn’t go that far. But moderate, definitely.
I love it. Only a few moderate Democrats left and the fanatical kool-aiders want to lynch them. Wipe out every vestige on non-conforming thought. Then: ideological purity. Robespierre would be so proud. But perhaps, I’m unfair here. Maybe the Jacobins will allow non-conforming thinkers to have their opinions as long as they never voice them.
Citizen Dugger, Senator Lieberman meet Mdse. Guillotine
Joe Lieberman could, and perhaps should, be, a moderate Republican. They do exist, you know.
Where? I haven’t seen one for a long time now.
You sure chased your tail on that comment, Steven. My numbers prove your point? Let’s go over it again. I said that Republicans are winning more and more elections, and you said, in effect, where are the “Reagan – like” margins? I pointed out that in two elections, G.W. Bush has received more votes than any President in history, and that’s not counting gubernatorial races, Congressional races, and state legislature seats. That sort of supports my position that the electorate is following the Republicans to the right.
It was Clinton’s eight years that pulled the Republicans toward the center to win in 2000, 2002, and 2004. Now you want to head further towards the left to win back the White House? How in the world could that work?
Also, by the way, what you call a rightward sprint took about 40 years.
The DLC is the Democrats’ last, best hope. If the Democrats stay situated on the far left, they will only see the rest of the country running off into the sunset.
Frank, your chosen numbers prove my point:
http://www.presidentsusa.net/popularvote.html
which really wasn’t MY point, just a clear showing of how the extreme rightward sprint of what used to be a respectable political party has deserted a huge number of voters. Funny how you’re wrong, and I’m right. If you knew how to read, you wouldn’t call what I say nonsense, and if you knew how to see, you’d be calling your neo-rightist thugs to the carpet for their actions. This…IS the subject, Jacko, about how we aren’t listening to your crap, or Lieberman’s, or the DLC’s, and we aren’t going to. By running to the center, the DLC has done more to erode the quality of political debate in this country than anyone except Bushboy himself and his pathetically mendacious malingerers. The DLC’s pre-mediated positioning is arrogant and condescending to the extreme, and the Repubs like it ’cause it means they get a free ticket, no “unpleasantries.” I almost prefer the sleazy invidiousness of Mr. Bush and his gang; at least you KNOW they’re the bad guys. Anyways, yeah, you’re not my buddy, pal, and don’t worryc about the “unpleasantries;” unlike your chickenshit chickenhawks, I ain’t sceered.
OK, Lieberman detractors will love this.
Three’s a rumor going around that the party is officially ‘changing’ all Party photos to have images of Sen Lieberman deleted. And the town of Lieberville has now been changes to Peoplesville.
Dugger Dzugashvilli
Translation: Waaaa! Leave me alone.
Sorry, Frank, when you make moronic comments, I will take them to task.
Funny, my comment was nearly identical to yours (merely substituted conservative for liberal in your rant). So I guess you admit that you like to post irrelevant comments that have nothing to do with the topic of the thread.
Thanks for the insight.
Dugger1: Don’t forget the hat! LOL
Hey, Butthead, my comment was addressed to Oliver, who authored the post. Who did you address your comment to? Stop being an asshole and blaming it on me. If you must be an asshole, take responsibility.
And. incidentally, my question, “John S. what is your problem?”, doesn’t require translation. In fact, judging by your stupid response, it no longer requires an answer. You’re just an asshole.
Good news, everybody! Civility is back in style.
LOL
Well, isn’t this peachy, now Quaker has taken up arms for John S. You deserve each other.
I don’t why you’re behaving like this, John S. After all, I’m not the who cut in front of you on line for the Partridge Family concert. That was someone who looked like me. And I didn’t run over your pet Yorkie, that was my cousin Charlie. He looks very little like me, and he has less hair.
So what have you got against me? You arrived on this blog, what, a week or so ago, and you came out swinging — at me. No one but me.
So, what’s it all about, John?
C’mon, ‘fess up, you’ll feel better.
Quaker: You wouldn’t know civility if it crept up on you, and drank your decaf tea.
Your claim to civility went out the window a few days ago.
John S. You can’t be stupid enough to be laughing, can you? You must be high.
Put that crack pipe down, before you burn your lips.
Aw Frank, you’re such a tragic figure.
I already told you, I don’t have a thing against you – it’s your comments that I find to be incredibly partisan and shrill. I don’t have a problem with conservative points of view, as long as they are articulated in an articulate fashion. People like you, Ian and Jay Caruso only know how to do one thing around places like this: Score cheap talking points with insults and zingers.
The day you start making posts that actually have some substance worth addressing, I’d be more than happy to engage in a reasonable debate. As long as you persist in waving around that red falg of yours, don’t be surprised when you get the horns. Since you seem to prefer the horns, I can only suggest that you get a thicker skin.
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