I didn’t write anything about veteran’s day because quite frankly I’m too angry to write anything worthy of the people who have sacrificed themselves for our security, without it being called “political”.
I support the troops every day, and hate the right wing hypocrites who truly don’t give a damn about ‘em.
Ed Schultz said it well the other day: “If I’m not supporting the troops, well then I want my tax money back”.
In fact, it is the people whose whole purpose in life is getting their tax money back– or going out of their way to avoid paying it in the first place (and yes I’m looking at you Grover Norquist)– who are not supporting the troops.
I can’t BELIEVE Bush used his speech – today of all days – to defend his manipulation of coerced intelligence in the lead up to this atrocious war in Iraq.
What a selfish, arrogant prick. If there EVER was a day that had less to do with him and his twisted agenda, it’d be today. These pricks in his administration would stand on a pile of dead Marines just so it’d give them a taller soapbox.
Pathetic and shameful.
Days like yesterday, Veteran’s Day”, aren’t meant to be political by any means at all, Oliver. I understand your feelings, and some service men agree with you completely, others are diametrically opposed. Nevertheless, people in the military have a good understanding of the common goal of liberty, its why they serve. Have a good one man.
Not to worry. Veterans like to be appreciated, as all do, but CYA posturing by left and right wing political groups means zilch. Salute and follow orders when Jimmy Carter said ‘do it’ and when Ronald Reagan said ‘do it’. Goes with the territory.
Dugger
That should read:
“It’s a good thing the troops themselves DON’T buy into your crap.”
I support the troops every day, and hate the right wing hypocrites who truly don t give a damn about em.
Yeah. You support the troops every day. By telling them they’re fighting an “immoral war”, that they’re doing what they’re doing “for nothing”, that the liberation of Iraq was “wrong” and do so by continually spouting the same lies that Harry Reid and Ted Kennedy are spouting, namely that the administration cooked the books on the intelligence and lied about it in order to go to war an enrich Dick and Dubya’s friends in the oil industry. Oh and let’s not forget those who accused the troops they support so much of using “chemical weapons” on Iraqi civilians.
That’s some support Oliver. You’re about a step away from being in Indymedia territory. It boggles the mind how you clowns can continue writing all of this and yet claim to love and support the troops.
It’s a good thing the troops themselves buy into your crap.
Support our Troops. Pay your taxes and stop whining.
Cease support for cutting Veterans benefits.
Watch their behaviors, beware of words purchased on the cheap.
One thing I notice about democrats, they constantly make statements, without anything to back them up….OW no exception.
HOW exactly do YOU support the “troops” everyday?
Just curious….
I think best sums it up.
“I support the troops, but not the war”: Then you don’t support the troops. Once US troops are deployed in a foreign war and you actively protest and attempt to undermine the government’s prosecution and even rationale for the war, you are no longer supporting the troops. You are protesting your government, as is your right, but the troops are part of the government and you protest them whether you admit it or not. You may want the best for them by ensuring they don’t fight a war you don’t approve of, but they signed up for all enemies foreign and domestic, and that’s the President’s call. You are especially culpable in this time of instant and worldwide media, by providing fodder for the enemy, their propagandists and the media in countries whose support the troops need to succeed. Protesting is legal, without question, but well open to question is whether those actions make the missions and war itself more difficult. I am certain they do, so while you are chanting your mindless sing song at least be intellectually honest and admit you are hurting the troops not supporting them.
You guys are idiots and the reason I didn’t write more on veteran’s day. The right thinks slapping a ribbon on their car and watching Fox is how you support the troops. I support the soldiers by believing they should be deployed only when necessary, given the proper tools to succeed when it happens, and given a roadmap to return home to their families and country. The right, as evidenced above, believes you go to war because the President says so, and you should just be quiet afterwards. That’s not only stupid, but unamerican.
The war in Iraq, is in fact being fought for no reason (WMDs, “Freedom”, Al Qaeda – what is it this week?) and is in fact, immoral. If you supported the troops instead of a political party, you’d understand that. But you don’t give a damn.
Left something out. Saying that the rationale for war has “changed” is a lie. It’s as simple as that. A lie. And those who say it are liars.
Oliver, YOU’RE the one that doesn’t give a damn. That’s the reason why you trot out, “X amount of soldiers are dead because of President Bush!” Why? Because you get to use their deaths as a political tool. Nothing more. You don’t give a shit about them?
Do you write to any of them? Do you get involved with any of the vast amount of organizations and movements that help them? I’ve NEVER seen you advertise any kind of support for them in that regard. Ever. When you’re presented with actual SOLDIERS who take the opposite view that you do, you call them “idiots.”
and given a roadmap to return home to their families and country.
More bullshit. It’s a useless talking point dressed up as “support.” The whole, “Bring them home” mantra is bullcrap and you know it. A timetable in war DOES NOT EXIST. It never has. So this is just crap.
The war in Iraq, is in fact being fought for no reason (WMDs, Freedom , Al Qaeda – what is it this week?) and is in fact, immoral.
More of your lies. Right from jumpstreet the war was about:
1. WMD
2. Removing Saddam from power who had destabilized the area and totally ignored and violated UNSC resolutions.
3. Giving Iraqi’s their freedom
4. Establishing democracy in a country with a strong Muslim presence.
The moral decadence of the anti-war left in this country was revealed after the bombings in Jordan. Jordanians took to the streets, denouncing Al Qaeda, denouncing Abu-Musab al-Zarqawi, and supporting King Abdullah(a supporter of the US and the west).
Who did the ani-war left direct their ire at? President Bush. It was HIS fault.
That’s the company you keep Oliver. The only immoral ones are people like yourself, who continue to proclaim your “support” for troops you don’t give a rat’s ass about.
Amrican Soldier;
Legal, thus far.
Oliver, don’t be obtuse. In the Gulf War, or any other war, the President did not say, “This is when it will be over. Mark your date on the calendar folks. It will all be over then.
Japan didn’t even surrender after we dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima. We had to drop another one on Nagasaki for them to get the message. Think it would have been prudent for Truman to set a timetable for the war to be over on August 8?
A leader, a real leader, sends our troops into harm s way with a real reason
We had a real reason. Go ahead and keep lying.
and a strategy to pull out when that mission is done.
Pulling out when the mission is done is a strategy? Uh, no. That’s just simply what happens when the mission is done.
The war in Iraq was always about Iraq s possesion of WMDs and their ties to Al Qaeda, as professed by the Bush administration and their allies.
You’ve never read the resolution or listened to any of President Bush’s speeches prior to the war have you? You must not have because anybody who did wouldn’t make such ignorant statements.
and Iraq/Al Qaeda are nothing more than figments of imagination.
Another lie.
The reasoning for the war continues to change, week to week depending on who on the right you ask – either its about democracy or al qaeda or about wmd or about attracting terrorists to iraq,
More lies. Lie. Lie. Lie.
Keep it up. You’re as good as Reid and Kennedy. Maybe it will get you elected to office one day.
The company I keep are the people who TRULY support the troops and recognize the good they did in Iraq and Afghanistan. You do nothing but piss on their memories and their legacy with your lies designed to do nothing more than help to elect Democrats. And you should be ashamed of yourself.
Jay, some of us don’t do like the conservative blogs and post about every super awesome thing you do in order to get some sort of empty congratulations from our idealogical allies.
A timetable in war doesn’t exist?
We beat Hussein in the ’90s, we came home.
We realized Korea and Vietnam were colossal mistakes and we came home.
We dropped the A-bomb on Japan and beat Hitler, we came home.
A leader, a real leader, sends our troops into harm’s way with a real reason and a strategy to pull out when that mission is done. But your boy Cheney thought this would be another Afghanistan – we topple Hussein, stick in Chalabi, out by Xmas.
The war in Iraq was always about Iraq’s possesion of WMDs and their ties to Al Qaeda, as professed by the Bush administration and their allies. America has never gone to war to bring democracy to anyone, because quite frankly it’s a stupid thing to go to war for unless it’s your own country. The reason support has evaporated for your war is that the two major justifications – WMD (which I believed) and Iraq/Al Qaeda are nothing more than figments of imagination. As far as the so-called democracy, Iraq holds a vote that begins to enshrine Sharia law and can only do so when we’ve closed the borders. The reasoning for the war continues to change, week to week depending on who on the right you ask – either its about democracy or al qaeda or about wmd or about attracting terrorists to iraq, etc. the lies from the right just go on and on and on.
The company you keep, Jay, is in the immoral few who continue to say – hey, so a couple thousand soldiers die to keep George Bush’s legacy intact – no biggie. I’ll concede that my opinion of this ill-fated policy was in the minority for much of the last two years, but that’s no longer the case. As the bodybags come home and Al Qaeda continues to operate with a free hand, people understand that the president and his enablers are simply incapable of telling the truth, incapable of admitting mistakes, and incapable of washing the stain of blood off of their hands.
That’s the company you keep, and at the end of the day you’re going to have to suffer the moral consequence of that.
Lie. Lie. Lie.
My god, you sound like a four year old. I know that’s the Republican level of discourse nowadays, but still.
The right has made a living at sticking its fingers in its collective ears and pretending nothing’s going wrong. That leads to death and decay. But you know that already. You just support it and don’t give a damn.
I support firefighters, but I don’t care if the building burns down.
I support policemen, but I don’t care if criminals get caught.
I support “the troops”, but “The bad guys are winning, we’re losing, the Commander – in – Chief doesn’t know what he’s doing, they’re all the bunch of liars. Iraq is headed for a civil war anyway; we don’t have an exit plan, it’s al about Halliburton.” Sound familiar?
OW can’t reply with facts so his typical response is bush is evil, war bad, troops commit attrocites, i support troops though!
Ever wear a uniform there jackass?
Tell us how you support the troops again oliver. Please.
Frank D,
Your notion that one supports the troops only through an unquestioning acceptance of the Commander in Chief’s stated rationale(s) for war ignores two very basic facts.
Fact #1: “The troops” are not a single, monolithic entity that all think and believe as a unified whole. Yes, you can find me links to soldiers/veterans who support this war and believe in its mission. And yes, I can find you links to veterans who don’t (see Paul Rieckoff’s Operation Truth and the recent Ohio congressional campaign of Paul Hackett). While all of the troops have pledged not to publicly question or impugn the CIC while in active service, that does not preclude any of them from having their own private opinions about the rightness of their mission and/or the competence (or lack thereof) in which they are being asked to carry it out.
Your suggestion that one can only support the troops by refraining from voicing an opinion which many of those in uniform undoubtedly share is therefore a fallacy. Instead, your admonition to “Support the troops” becomes, in effect, little more than code for “Shut up and support the president.”
Fact #2: Given that one can not really “support the troops” simply through the force of one’s stated opinion, there remains only one viable option for offering that support: By making sure they have the needed equipment tto keep them safe while in harm’s way and to receive whatever medical care they need upon their return.
Sadly, this is something that this administration is apparently loath to do. Such support generally takes the form of money, i.e. tax dollars, which are pretty scarce in D.C. nowadays. Ergo, supporting the troops in this war – or any other war – requires something more than just silent opposition to the president and/or a little yellow magnet on the back of your SUV. It entails sacrifice, be it through higher taxes (this is the first time the U.S. has gone to war without raising taxes to finance it), rationing (see WWII), or a draft.
If you indeed “support the troops” as much as you claim, you were no doubt outraged by the Republican’s recent refusal to support Washington Senator Patty Murray’s request to include $1.5 billion in additional funding for the VA as an amendment to an emergency appropriations bill for the war this past spring. No, it was only after VA Secreatry Nicholson went before Congress, with hat in hand, to cite the huge upsurge in new patient enrollmnets at VA facilities, that the additonal monies were finally granted.
In short, Frank, if you are really sincere about supporting the troops, then write your congressman, write your president and urge them to spend the money to buy our soldiers and veterans the proper equipment and health care they so badly need.
I don’t know, ask W not me. If it’s the goverment you have a problem with, then go to congress and raise the question to congress. I don’t have the answers.
^fighting for ALL the wrong reason.
Ever tell you how much I hate wordpress.
Dick Armey, GOP Majority Leader
Phyllis Schafly
There are more unpatriotic Americans who oppose a war yet support the troops here IOKIYAR
And did George W. Bush feel about our intervention in the Balkans?
From here
It looks like someone has flip flopped
He doesn’t. I think supporting the troops is more of a mindset versus a ‘mob affect’ following. Whether you are left or right, you either support the country AND troops or you don’t.
Besides, he is entitled to his belief. I fight to give it to him. He can call me a mindless drone who is fighting for all the reaons but I don’t need to explain my reasons to fight. He can just reap the benefits of what I do.
And before you start with the 9/11 changed everything, where is Osama bin Ladin? Why did we spend so much time and resources on Iraq? So W could avenge his Daddy?
I remember getting in trouble with the CO. Why? Something to do with my motorcycle. I was assigned to bagging detail . I met the C-130. It was full of body bags.
The smell was overwhelming as the ramp dropped because it just came from in country fresh from a nameless valley with the blood dripping out of the bags (yes they leaked).
We moved them out of the cargo area. You read the tags. Booby trapped latrine, weight 19 pounds. Age 20.
You puke. The smell blends with the rest of the odors on the airplane.
Fire fight, letters that you don t understand, 168 pounds . Oh shit. That s what I weigh.
War is sudden and unforgiving violence. You go to war as a last resort because there is no alternative.
We believe that life is precious; not to be wasted or squandered. I fear that lives are being squandered , again.
American Soldier: Handling bodies is a specific MOS, not a “detail” for misbehaving soldiers. He is full of shit.
Troops committed to Bosnia are veterans too.
Jay C, van, American Soldier, dugger1 and drpedro have criticized Americans for being against Bush’s war. Let’s see how our favorite wingers try to spin these critics:
“You can support the troops but not the president.”
–Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
“Well, I just think it’s a bad idea. What’s going to happen is they’re going to be over there for 10, 15, maybe 20 years.”
–Joe Scarborough (R-FL)
“Explain to the mothers and fathers of American servicemen that may come home in body bags why their son or daughter have to give up their life?”
–Sean Hannity, Fox News, 4/6/99
“[The] President . . . is once again releasing American military might on a foreign country with an ill-defined objective and no exit strategy. He has yet to tell the Congress how much this operation will cost. And he has not informed our nation’s armed forces about how long they will be away from home. These strikes do not make for a sound foreign policy.”
–Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA)
“If we are going to commit American troops, we must be certain they have a clear mission, an achievable goal and an exit strategy.”
–Karen Hughes, speaking on behalf of Gov George W Bush
“I had doubts about the bombing campaign from the beginning . . I didn’t think we had done enough in the diplomatic area.”
–Senator Trent Lott (R-MS)
“I cannot support a failed foreign policy. History teaches us that it is often easier to make war than peace. This administration is just learning that lesson right now. The President began this mission with very vague objectives and lots of unanswered questions. A month later, these questions are still unanswered. There are no clarified rules of engagement. There is no timetable. There is no legitimate definition of victory. There is no contingency plan for mission creep. There is no clear funding program. There is no agenda to bolster our over-extended military. There is no explanation defining what vital national interests are at stake. There was no strategic plan for war when the President started this thing, and there still is no plan today”
–Rep Tom Delay (R-TX)
“Victory means exit strategy, and it’s important for the President to explain to us what the exit strategy is.”
–Governor George W. Bush (R-TX)
Jim,
I think you are full of shit. Bobby trapped latrine huh?
Squandered, well sit back on your posh chair and type away. Enjoy it.
I support the soldiers by believing they should be deployed only when necessary, given the proper tools to succeed when it happens, and given a roadmap to return home to their families and country
Oh, you support the troops by BELIEVING…now I see. What ARE the proper tools OW? A magic force field? Telepathy? What do you BELIEVE about that?
Iraq violated a cease fire- an immediate causis belli. It violated 12 UN proclamations including ones that required it to PROVE that it had destroyed WMD’s. It shot daily at naval aviators and air force pilots who were lawfully over the country enforcing a UN MANDATED no-fly zone. It violated lord knows how much of the “oil for food” program, bribing our european “allies” with billions.
Crap OW, you spew absolute crap
buma,
“….American Soldier, dugger1 and drpedro have criticized Americans for being against Bush s war. Let s see how our favorite wingers try to spin these critics:”
I have done no such thing. I am very much for the war and support myself(soldier) in this effort.
drpedro:
“[Iraq] violated 12 UN proclamations including ones that required it to PROVE that it had destroyed WMD s. It shot daily at naval aviators and air force pilots who were lawfully over the country enforcing a UN MANDATED no-fly zone.”
By the way, how was Saddam supposed to ‘prove’ he had destroyed WMDs? Bush did a bit of sabre-rattling that gave UN inspectors access to whichever sites they wished to investigate (as well as a few other sites suspected by Rumsfeld and Powell). But just as it began to appear that Iraq had no illegal weapons, Bush of course pulled the inspectors out. Bush squandered an admirable position he gained by waving the big stick to enforce diplomatic efforts — for an expensive invasion and a very expensive occupation.
Jeebus thi s is so tiresome, to go round and round on this again, you’d think it was 2002.
UN resolutions? Israel violates them consistently. We don’t unilaterally invade to “enforce” them. Are you guys repudiating your fellow wingnuts who have nothing for contempt for the UN? Or are you among them, and thus hypocrites of the first and highest order?
My point is: all this nitpicking is a waste of time. You wanted a war, and you got one. No real concern as to why, you just wanted to go kick ass, and you did…. and now we-all are suffering the backlash and the cost.
I wish someone had trotted out all the damned “we have to have an exit strategy” and “we can’t go into an open-ended war” quotes from Shrub and DeLay back in 2002 when they were pushing for thi s fucking war! Thanks guys. Glad to see the oppo research team finally show up to work– 3 years too late.
But that’s all behind us now. We’re in, America wants out, let’s get out.
And I am very tired of all the “troop worship”. Somebody explain why exactly it is necessary for a patriot to “Support the Troops”, but not to “Support the Teachers”, for exaple? Soldiers, saliors, marines, and airmen have a important, difficult, dangerous, low-paying jobs, and deserve respect and good treatment. And so do cops, firefighters, social workers, drug counsellors, nurses, public defenders, construction workers, and teachers, goddammit. And they deserve the same level of reverent devotion that our troop-worshipping friends on the right only issue to uniformed personnel.
I’m glad our friends on the left have grown out of the teenage habit of bashing troops or cops just because their jobs involve carrying guns. I’ll be happy when our friends on the right grow out of the teenage habit of shitting on every *other* working person (Hey, how do you feel about unions? Just asking.), just becuase their jobs do *not* involve carrying guns.
To paraphrase Bill Hicks, either you love all working people– military and non-military–, or you shut the fuck up.
So chew on that one for a while.
Salute and follow orders when Jimmy Carter said do it and when Ronald Reagan said do it . Goes with the territory.
Salute and follow orders when Adolph Hitler said ‘do it’ and when Hideki Tojo said ‘do it’ and when Benito Mussolini said ‘do it’ and when Nathan Bedford Forrest said ‘do it’ and when Josef Stalin said ‘do it’ and when–
The difference between marching for ‘tyranny’ and marching for ‘freedom’ is when those who do the marching (and their fellow citizens back home) have the balls and the brains to ask “Why are we marching?”
Here we go with the ‘our boys are like the nazis’ bs again.
You people make me sick.
Support the troops my ass.
And unions suck too.
Maybe if you’re sick enough, you won’t come back. I’m sure we’d all miss the depth of your critical analysis.
@ just.jim, American Soldier, and Frank_D,
A 92 Mike is indeed an MOS for mortuary affairs, but the excerpt that he wrote could have been correct under certain circumstances. In-Country many people would be assigned to mortuary affairs. My dad was a CW2 while he was in Vietnam, he was assigned to an Engineer outfit, but did a stint as the OIC of a mortuary, because there was nobody there to fill the slot.
“Bagging Detail”, has always been in regard to filling sandbags to my recollection, I do sort of doubt that a detail to meet bodies would be reserved for Soldiers in trouble. That has always been a solemn detail at Dover.
The piece that just.jim wrote sounded like it could have come out of a book written by McDonough or Caputo. I am inclined to believe that it is fiction as well.
AlexCorrigan,
Do you mean to imply that troops that are deploying forward have no balls or brains because we don’t mutiny? In case you are wondering, mutiny or sedition are the terms that the armed forces use when service members refuse to execute lawful orders. I hope you don’t mean to imply that.
Goatchowder is right. This discussion is really tiresome… and utterly pointless to boot.
There are already 30+ posts in which voices from both sides of the aisle proclaim their love for the troops/vets. But none of y’all actually talkin’ ’bout troops or the vets – y’all talkin’ ’bout The War. Those on the right say if you support the troops, you should support The War; the left says The War is wrong and that the best way to support the troops is by bringing them safely home.
But do any of you actually think for one second that someone struggling to survive in Iraq right this very moment actually gives one flea speck of shite about what you, or I or OW thinks of this war? Do any of you really believe that my opposition to the war will so weaken the morale of some Marine in Ramadi that he will no longer be able to get off his cot in the morning and go fight? Or that your support of the war will give him the will and courage he needs to carry on? Puh-leeze.
This aint the 1960s, people. The anti-war movement has thankfully moved beyond spitting on returning soldiers and calling them “babykillers.” Discussions like this one have little or no bearing on troop morale or well-being. So if, in fact, any of you are serious about supporting the troops, you need to start moving your focus beyond your own personal opinion of the war. Focus instead on those people whose opinions can actually make the difference between life and death to the people who are fighting in it. I’m talking, of course, about the current occupants of the White House and Capitol Hill.
Now, each of us no doubt has an elected representative who at some point has wrapped him or herself in the flag, proclaimed their love of mom, apple pie, baseball and every young man and woman fighting in Iraq. But that’s not what I’m talking about. That kind of posing is not too dis-similar from the kind of meaningless crap you will read in threads like this one. But unlike you or I, your average elected rep has a much more substantive way of making his opinion known: The Power of the Purse.
How many of you have taken the time to familiarize yourself with the president’s – or your own congressman’s or senator’s – position when it comes to support for issues like veteran’s health benefits? Woefully few, I suspect. But don’t you think a much more constructive use of your time might be to find out how the person who allegedly represents you in D.C. actually votes on such matters and to try and influence their opinion by writing to them rather than to some anonymous asshole who posts on a blogsite? Have your reps supported the funding and oversight bills that ensure our soldiers are getting everything they need in terms of equipment? Have they voted to fund adequate levels of health care for returning veterans? Or, have they sought cuts to those particular budgetary items to help finance a tax cut that most people on a military pay scale will never even benefit from?
Remember: Supporting the troops is not about you or your own two-bit opinion of this war. It’s about making sure that the people who are fighting it have all they need while in the field and upon their return.
Great post Bublitchki.
buma, You arem, asusuual, 100% wrong. I have never criticized anybody for just opposing the war. I have doubts myself, but not about the integrity of our President and congressional leaders, Democrat and Republican, who were trying to do a good thing. Are you capable of actual thought?
Dugger
Shorter dugger:
In his heart he knows he’s right; and for that reason I support Bush.
Well, it is easier than actually thinkng.
buma,
You are still ‘err’ confused. I don’t particualry support Bush. I just question cartoon ish, buffoonish critiicsms of the left. Most leftists can’t argue intelligently beyond that point. See above with frame blown out of the water when he/she tries to debate rationally.
Dugger
Semi well put, Doc.
This website and democrats and republicans are both crooked and corupt.
Oliver only goes after Republicans but Democrats do the same kinds of things.
Kids, this is politics and this is what it consists of. Backstabing, lies and all kinds of negative stuff going down.
Oliver is biased and only points out one point of view, but the real point of view is both parties are worthless and are corupt. It’s like Satan verses Satan and going off on religious beliefs isn’t going to help your cause.
Oliver, you need to move out to the rest of the country and get away from politics, it’s time you can do more productive things with.
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