Check out the comments on this post about blogs working the press during the NJ governor race. People talking about “exposing” the activity, and “alerting the media” to it.
Are you guys serious?
This is the same reason why the Bush campaign beat the Kerry folks in the media, and why Bob Shrum shouldn’t be let within a thousand miles of a presidential campaign ever again. The only way to win this is to be better at this than the right.
People complain about negative ads, but you know why we see them every year?
They work.
So if only we were better liars we’d win?
They didn’t win because they lied, they won by keeping absolute control of their media message, by pounding out the talking points and repeating them over and over, and by energizing their base with effective leadership. (The latter is helped by the fact that conservatives, by nature, respond well to authority figures.) I don’t know that the left can beat them at their own game; getting liberals organized can be like herding cats. But there are definitely some tactics that Democrats can successfully emulate.
If you read the blog entry from my point of view, what you see is a lot of whining, and innuendo. There’s no real evidence that anything happened: Thune contacted West Virginis Daschle’s in South Dakota, Forrester’s in New Jersey.
Granted, I didn’t read it carefully, but that’s because I was almost instantaneously confused by “flying connection syndrome”, something with which you “Kryptonite” and Media Matters” readers ought to be painfully familiar.
In a desparate attempt yo prove somebody guilty of something this “Web of Association” is thrown up to catch whatever can be caught.
This is is the way I see it, so please don’t gang up on me over details.
Ryland is correct about exactly one thing: “getting liberals organized can be like herding cats”. It has been theorized that this is how both the Nazis and the Bolsheviks came to power. However, liberals are organized, to a degree. Organized liberals are called Democrats.
The left loses, not because they don’t lie as well as Republicans — that is nonsense. Surely, with the existence of the NYT – WaPo – LAT axis, and CBSNBCABC on “regular” TV, and CNNMSNBC on cable, and TIMENEWSWEEK tied at the hip, the Republicans would never be able to lie about anything, and, if they do, whose fault is it that get away with it? “Joe Six – Pack”?
I could tell you why the left loses — in fact — I have, a few times. But every time I do, I get the “We don’t need advice from a troll” treatment. So, keep wandering around in the dark, and waking up scratching your heads the day after Election Day. Keep telling yourself: “Diebold…” “Diebold…”
I agree with Ryland, and I find the “herding cats” simile both hilarious and appropriate. For the most part, Rethug voters know they’re being lied to, and they don’t care. Though many of them have become very good at lying to themselves, they’re political philosophy (if it can be dignified as such) has come to defend on paranoia, hatred, and other kinds of negativity. That’s why their smear campaigns work so well. They don’t have to be true, they just have to tell the base what the base wants to hear. It helps if the smear appeals to jingoism, racism, homophobia, xenophobia, false piety, sexual Puritanism, or some other reactionary family value.
In a sense, both OW and Ryland are right, and therein lies the quandary for progressives. We don’t want to be told the same lies as Rethug voters, but, unfortunately, we still want to cling to the slightly more subtle lie that the Democratic Party is fighting on our behalf. If the Dems were truly the antithesis of the Rethugs, then they would find a way to organize their putative base. The fact that they keep losing– even as the Bushies and their congressional pals drive the country further into the toilet– says at least as much about the Dems’ true colors as it does about the Rethugs’ political savvy.
ROBODIAL sucks….
I live in Virginia and I have heard from George Allen, Leslie Byrne, Rudy Guiliani, and John O Bannon (local delegate).
I cannot wait to cast my vote tomorrow. Becuase then it will be over.
I hope Kaine CREAMS him by 3 or 4% points. Then we can have a MANDATE.
He sneers about conspiracy theories and tenuous connections then writes about the “NYT-WaPo-LAT axis” as if these three insitutional nebbish papers were somehow comparable to networks of anonymous attack blogs. The lack of irony is… ironic.
It’s not that we don’t need advice from trolls, Frank, it’s that we don’t need advice from pig-thick trolls.
In 1976 the Democrats could have taken the last six months of the year off.
In 2008, there will be precious few Republicans who can separate themselves from Bush nihilism. McCain/Graham will be the biggest challenge. If they can make it through the gauntlet of conservative rumor blogs to nomination, they could win. But, it would be a fair fight. They are different from the rest of their crowd.
First the RNC needs to move past denial. The are the party of the Walking Wounded. And they may have a greater vacation from the WH than the four years post Nixon. But I don’t think McCain has any real chance of a nomination, because the lemmings are ‘organized’.
Can it, Wilbur. I didn’t say they were conspiring. It was pretty clear that I meant that none of them favored Republicans, nor would they deliberately print Republican lies.
And insulting me further doesn’t dissuade me from my point — that liberals aren’t paying attention.
See above:
I told you the liberals aren’t paying attention.
If the Democrats can’t elect anybody, how is a so – called moderate Republican going to get elected?
It’s Rice / Clinton, with Bill “How did that get in my hand?” Clinton her major handicap.
Rice 60 / 40.
I understood the subject of the Kos post to be the use of blogs to spread rumors, smears and lies into the mainstream media — not so much message unity. In the case of smears, obvious message unity is verboten — the rumor has to appear to come from nowhere and appear to go every where on its own. I agree with Oliver that the poster’s solution — hope and pray that reporters will “report on this kind of campaign as it’s happening [and] not publish the rumors a week before the election for fear of being scooped” — is a recipe for more defeat. Having a bunch of liberal blogs cry foul in unison obviously doesn’t matter for shit to the MSM — how else to explain the Swift Boat bullshit in 04. But the other response can’t just be get better at spreading rumors, smears and lies ourselves. Can it? I just want to be clear on what OW is saying. Do the Dems need a better dirty tricks department? If so, the best place to start is with the college Democrats. The college Republicans are a well oiled ratfuck machine, they train by trashing each other in campus elections and then go pro in local races. That’s Rove’s history. So who’s going down to the campus trenches to tell all the polite, DNC careerist wannabes it’s time to take off their blazers and get down in the mud?
Shorter Frank;
Condi not stained by Bush.
We’ll see.
Wrong again — you wouldn’t last long at Readers’ Digest.
Yeah, that Condi Rice is definitely presidential material. Someone should start a blog about how brilliant she is. Whatta hoot!
Condi Mushroom-Cloud Rice.
Condi “I think it was ‘Bin Laden Determined to Stike in US’ ” Rice.
It was pretty clear that I meant that none of them favored Republicans, nor would they deliberately print Republican lies.
Apparently, Frank, you haven’t been paying attention for the last, oh, ten years or so. Remember Monicagate? How about the War on Gore? I don’t know what ‘liberal media’ you’ve been watching, but by and large the corporate press in this country have been running the spectrum between kowtowing to the Bushies and carrying their political water.
Nor do we need to look so far into the past to find an example of a so-called “liberal media” representative who was more than happy to “deliberately print Republican lies.” Five words: JUDITH MILLER, NEW YORK TIMES .
Really, Frank, unless you’re talking about Amy Goodman, you aren’t talking about liberal media. If the corporate conglomerate media outlets had been doing their jobs as journalists, there would be no illegitimate Dubya presidency for true liberal and progressive media to shine the light on.
Your regurgitation of that old Rethug pile of crap about the ‘librul media’ is just another case of a right-winger burying himself in the cloak of victimization. Correct me if I’m wrong, but you voted for this crap, and you continue to support it. All those dead Iraqis and U.S. soldiers are on your head. Your Chimperor has called for an “ownership society.” Why don’t you wingers “own” your decisions, instead of trying to blame things on ‘librul’ straw men?
Oh, and by the way, there’s no such thing as a “moderate Republican.” If you lie down with dogs, you’ll come up covered with shit and fleas. That goes the same for so-called “centrist Democrats.”
Gee, Alex, your moderate tone is oh so persuasive. You must be big fun at cocktail parties or down at the local gin mill.
Let’s go from top to bottom, shall we?
There are, indeed, moderate Republicans and centrist Democrats, your mangled, scatological metaphor notwithstanding. Whether or not they have any influence is arguable, I will admit.
I really don’t feel the weight of any dead Iraqis or US servicemen on my head, or any other part of my body, but if you insist, I will confess that I have supported the invasion of Iraq from its inception, and I think that the actions being taken at this very moment to kill as many terrorists as possible are proper actions. I do not, nor did I ever, believe that WMD’s or Hussein’s purported involvement in 9/11 were good reasons to invade Irag.
I’m not sure what a “Rethug” is, or a Chimperor, or who “Dubya” is (has Jessica Alba made a new movie?) but you misspelled ‘liberal’ a few times.
And if you think that the only liberal reporter is Amy Goodman at Democracy Now, you’re ignoring, MoJo and The Nation, and many, many more publications…
The ability to find one Republican – friendly reporter at the Times, just provides evidence that they are few and far between
As for “MonicaGate” it was sex and politics, an irresistible combination to the Press. Did the Press hurt Clinton in 1996? He won, didn’t he?
Did the Press hurt Gore in 2000? No, he lost a squeaker… So, too bad.
That’s two items you can cite since 1992.
If you wait four hours for me to return, I’ll be back with 100 citations where Bush took a beating including, but not limited to: two separate running body counts in Irag, one which marks every 100 casualties in total, with a note that there’s no end in sight; and the other a count of every 100 casualties Bush since “declared victory.”
“The ability to find one Republican – friendly reporter at the Times, just provides evidence that they are few and far between.”
Would that be the one Republican friendly reporter who played an instrumental role in leading this country to war on false information? Ya. I see your point. No big deal. She was just one reporter.
BTW, Frank, I’ve been meaning to ask. There’s no question that Condileeza Rice has a presidential pedigree but do you honestly think that the Republican base is ready to elect a black woman to the highest office of the land? They may say nice things about her to pollsters but standing in the privacy of polling booth where, in your heart of hearts, do you think the hard white right will fall?
Wrong.(?) Condi IS stained by Bush. I would agree, but I have been willing to wait until Nukular Condi’s Mushoom Cloud hangs ominously over the reluctant candidates head.
Do you honestly think that the Republican base is ready to elect a black woman to the highest office of the land?
Why do people ask questions in that fashion?
Am I supposed to answer it, “Well, no frameone, I honestly don’t, but don’t tell anyone else — we’ll just pretend I believe it, OK? Between you and me…
Of course, I believe it! And I have believed it since 2004, and earlier, when I was hoping that Cheney would step down, and give the VP nomination to Powell. And I believed it when Powell left, and Rice became Secretary of State.
In case you forgot, the first black Secretary of State was nominated, not in the Clinton administration, but in the Bush administration. And, oh yes, the second black Secretary of State was appointed in the Bush administration.
Leo. Stop arguing and get all your fellow anal retentives out there registered. The left is going to need a lot of help to beat Secretary Rice.
Remember, there’s always “Diebold… ” Diebold…”
Did I misinterpret your words?
Condi not stained by Bush.
Wrong again
How am I arguing?
Leo: Condi IS stained by Bush. Suggests disagreement to me.
Of course, I could be wrong. It has happened before. Just never with you.
Let me see if I can clarify
Semanticleo said; as a response to your previous post which seemed to indicate you thought Condi was NOT stained by Bush.
“Shorter Frank;
Condi not stained by Bush.
We ll see. ”
Frank__D said “Wrong again”
Frank;
Let me add to Frameone’s charcterization of you. You are a Motherfucking
idiot !
Now stop stalking me asshole.
I was being facetious Frank. I really don’t give fuck what’s in your heart of hearts.
Geez, if your skin is that thin, maybe would should reconsider posting in comments sections on blogs, where the idea is, maybe, to debate the issues.
frameone and leo: both graduates from the same language school…
You guys are great! A real addition to the intellectual give and take around here.
And I’m the troll.
I don’t know about your news folks, but the 6:00 news last night on NBC in DC (and perhaps the 11 PM version, too) featured a story on the robo-calls, complete with identifying the sponsors as members of the Republicans’ Party and indicating that so far, the Kaine campaign had not decided whether to pursue the miscreants in court or not.
And guys, give it up — Frank is pig-headed, irreparable, and probably does that squirmy thing with his legs and tush that indicate sexual excitement (like those odd, creepy, socially inept souls who frequent the adult bookstore sidestreets) every time he “lays it to” one of us liberals. You’re just leading the poor guy on by replying to him, and he’ll soon have to change his pajamas if we keep it up (no pun intended by that last phrase). As the line goes, “Don’t feed the trolls.”
Ed
Ah, yes, Ed, when in doubt, what it’s all about, stand in the corner and scream and shout.
The old sexual innuendo ploy. You’re right, Ed, except for one thing: I don’t wear pajamas.
Mwahahahahahahahahahahahah!