Previously when I wrote about race and the need for new black leaders, some commenters asked why I omitted conservative black leaders. Here’s why: because idiot jackasses like Mychal Massie get paid bucks from white conservatives to tell black people that they should be thankful for slavery
Mychal Massie declared to host Janet Parshall that African-American churches today “have succumbed to hatred” and “disobedience to God.” Massie went on to proclaim that “the black people today that curse America are cursing God because if God had not permitted the Ashanti and Dahomey tribes of ancient Africa to trap other Africans and sell them to Muslims, who sold them to Europeans, we would not have what we have today.” Parshall praised Massie for his “straight talk” — the name of a program Massie hosts on the conservative website Rightalk.com — and called him “brother.”
So, yeah. That’s why.
“Slavery? Forced relocation? Generations of abuse and neglect? Without those, you wouldn’t be here today!
“See? The system works!”
Godamighty.
This must be what going mad feels like.
One guy indicts all black conservatives == liberal “fairness”
Frank, they all sound like this guy.
Then why he is an example? I never heard anubody talk like that — black or white…
I’m in no position at this time to “nominate” anybody for the job of “leader of the black community.” After all, who’s the “leader of the white community”?
All I’m saying is that if, you don’t look on the conservative end of the spectrum, you could be missing out on a lot of talent.
Here s why: because idiot jackasses like Mychal Massie get paid bucks from white conservatives to tell black people that they should be thankful for slavery
And what evidence do you have that he’s only saying these things because he’s getting paid to do so?
After all, who s the leader of the white community ?
That would be Bush. 10-12% approval rating pretty much excludes him from the black community.
Oh no, the jackass probably believes it – paid or not – but he has a platform to say it thanks to cons.
As a black man, where would you rather live? The US or Africa (take your pick of any country there)?
I think you know EXACTLY the point Massie was making.
As an aside, I recall my sister, who spent a year in Kenya, telling me the black people there would literally give an arm or leg to be able to live in the USA.
Ryland, as you know, I was referring to the PRESENT, not the 1700s. Nice strawman.
Massie was NOT saying slavery was justified. He WAS insinuating today’s blacks in the USA are better off than they would be in Africa.
Nite all… gotta go polish my cast iron lawn jockey.
I think you know EXACTLY the point Massie was making.
He was saying that the end justifies the means. I don’t think so. I’m not black, and I don’t presume to speak for black people, but I would be surprised if a lot of black people thought so either.
And I don’t think any black people in Kenya would give an arm or a leg to live in America in, say, the 1700s.
If it weren’t for Hitler, my father wouldn’t have been a GI, wouldn’t have gone to college on the GI bill, wouldn’t have met my mother, I wouldn’t have been born.
I guess that means I should be thankful for Hitler.
Funny thing is…. I’m not.
If Massie wants to say that blacks in America have it better than blacks in Africa, he can say that. But there are just some things you never try to justify if you have an ounce of humanity in you.
curmudgeon: You’re not saying President Bush is your leader, are you?
Remember the African American Republican Leadership Council? Still funny, still in existence, still irrelevant.
Rather than lampoon the poor psychotic Mr. Massie, our eyes need to be on the real viable threat to the African American community: Maryland Lt. Governor Michael Steele. His campaign for the U.S. Senate will be well funded against Congressman Cardin. The disaffection among the Black electorate could lead to a mistake of apocalyptic proportions next year after the memory of Katrina fades.
Don’t worry about Steele. He’ll have a fight.
Ryland, as you know, I was referring to the PRESENT, not the 1700s. Nice strawman.
Massie was NOT saying slavery was justified. He WAS insinuating today s blacks in the USA are better off than they would be in Africa.
Not sure if you’re being obtuse on purpose or if it comes naturally, but what the heck, I’ll bite.
First off, congratulations on learning a new phrase: straw man argument. Unfortunately, you still haven’t quite grasped what it means. (There a list of logical fallacies here, you should look it up.) If I had argued against a lesser point you had made as if it were your main point, then I would be using a straw man argument, but in fact what I did was make an aside to address your aside.
My main point, that addressed your main point, is that Massie is saying that the ends (the relatively affluent and successful lifestyle that Blacks in America enjoy today) justify the means (some Africans tribes selling out other African tribes to slavers). Massie didn’t claim that slavery was justified, and nowhere did I say he did.
This probably didn’t make a dent, rightisright, assuming you actually read it and aren’t off high-fiving your buddies on FreeRepublic.com about how you pwn3d a liberal on Oliver’s site, but I felt like I had to correct your obtuseness. But if you would care to address the actual content of my comments, I’d love to hear it.
Wilbur Says: If it weren t for Hitler, my father wouldn t have been a GI, wouldn t have gone to college on the GI bill, wouldn t have met my mother, I wouldn t have been born.
I guess that means I should be thankful for Hitler.
Yes. Wilbur, you should be thankful, but not to Hitler
You should be thankful to God.
The first thing that jumped out at me was when he said “the black people today that curse America are cursing God…” Um, huh? Everyone who hates America (which is a much smaller group than reactionaries would claim, but whatever) is a Satanist? Americans are God’s chosen people? People approve of what America is doing if and only if they are Christian? Am I wrong to think that all of these, or any of them, are reasonable conclusions from what he said?
And whether or not Massie thinks slavery was justified, he certainly said it was good. “If God had not permitted [black Africans to be sold as slaves], we would not have what we have today.” With the earlier statement that [complaining] about [that] is [complaining] about God. How much clearer should he have made it?
And Frank_D Says:
Yes. Wilbur, you should be thankful, but not to Hitler
You should be thankful to God.
That falls under the category of “true but useless.” Some would say you should thank God for everything good. (Makes me wonder why you can’t blame him for everything bad, but that’s not the point.) Okay, so you should not be thankful to Hitler… but you should be thankful to God for creating Hitler? That seems to be what you’re saying. It’s just shifting every bit of blame and gratitude in the world over a step.
Which seems like a more sane thought process? “Thank you God for using Hitler to get my parents together,” or “Gee, God, that was pretty cruel to use Hitler to accomplish a little good here and there at the cost of, you know, genocide. Couldn’t you have just had grandpa’s job pay better, let my father could go to college on his own and meet my mother that way, and skipped the whole war?”
Are you saying I should be thankful to God for Hitler, Frank? Yes, I believe that is what you are saying.
That’s a despicable thought.
Ok, Frank officially needs to turn in his brainholder card after that last comment.
Intelligent Design at it’s finest.
sorry….*its
The notion that today s blacks in the USA are better off than they would be in Africa is a worn out argument. Perhaps slaves ancestors are better off, but they were certainly not. There is nothing to compare the argument with. Slavery may have changed the course of African history at the time, so no one can know what today would bring. And without slave labor, America may not have become what it is today, either.
America is the most affluent country in the world, most people here are better off than where their ancestors came from they didn t need to be slaves to do it.
Slavery was wrong, plain and simple. Stop arguing for it as if America did black people some kind of favor.
Wilbur Says: That s a despicable thought.
trakjoe Says: Ok, Frank officially needs to turn in his brainholder card after that last comment.
That leaves you with one of three alternatives:
1) There is no God (I believe there is);
2) He stands by powerlessly, while incredible harm and cruelty is inflicted on His Creation, because he is either crazed or sadistic or both;
3) We don’t know why He does what he does, because He is God, and we’re not, but we can believe that “all things work together for good … ” Romans 8:28, KJV
Finally, back to the topic, all kinds of things happened to the Africans who were captured and enslaved, whether they ended up in the Middle East, Europe, or the Americas. We can’t paint them with a broad brush, and say nothing but bad things happened, and we can’t say nothing but good things happened. Massie is wrong to think that God did the Africans a “favor” by putting them on the . Some of you are wrong to say that since slavery as an institution was wrong, no good came of it.
OK, same logic: we should thank God for Osama bin Laden and the 9-11 attacks because they will advance His purpose in some way we can’t yet see.
That presents a difficult dilemma: what does God want true believers to do in response? How can you know?
It seems that, yet again, we have living proof of right wing difficulty with the basic scientific principle of cause and effect. As BabyHazel points out, the Africa of today exists largely as a result of the social, cultural, political, and economic ravages of the colonial era, an era which was defined in part by the slave trade.
I recall a story that was big here in the Chicago media a few years ago: a near-term pregnant woman was murdered, her womb was cut open, and her baby was removed. The baby survived. Now, should we tell that child that she should thank God she was torn from her mother’s womb, because a dead mother’s womb is an awful place to live?
Saying that ‘African-Americans should be grateful for slavery because Africa’s messed up’ is just another lame attempt to try and diminish the stench of slavery in our historical record. It is also a lame attempt to divert attention from slavery’s tenacious legacy.
Just because the propaganda oozes from the mouth of a descendant of slaves doesn’t make it any more credible. After all, nearly every one of the thousands of revolts and mass escapes during the slavery era in the U.S. was betrayed by a ‘loyal’ slave. It should come as no surprise that we still have a few Sambos and Quimbos walking around today.
I should have said “planned revolts and mass escapes,” because that’s as far as the vast majority of them went. Way to go, Quimbo!
You forgot to ask the question. Instead, you gave me a statement: “I m pretty certain of the right thing to do.” Whence the certainty?
cybishop Says:
Makes me wonder why you can t blame him for everything bad, but that s not the point
It s just shifting every bit of blame and gratitude in the world over a step.
You were this close!
1) You don’t blame Him for everything bad, you thank Him for everything!
2) You are shifting the blame and gratitude — God made the people with free will — we can do whatever we want. God makes it turn out right. Which brings us to the next question.
Which seems like a more sane thought process?
1) If God made the world for Wilbur’s family alone, then what you’re describing might make sense. But, God made the world and everything in it, and everything has to be factored in — Pearl Harbor (Hawaii the 50 th State), the Russian Front (”the Cold War”), Concentration camps (the Holocaust = Israel), the “Red Ball” Express = the fight for Civil Rights, etc., etc., etc.
Quaker in a Basement Says:
That presents a difficult dilemma: what does God want true believers to do in response? How can you know?
Much tougher question: My own philosophy is this: I’m pretty certain of the right thing to do (hit a car in a parking lot — leave a note? y/n Get too much change back in the store — go back in? y/n) but it takes courage.
Sometimes, I grit my teeth and say, “I really don’t want to do this right thing, but I will.” Sometimes, it’s easy. Either way, the time comes, sometimes soon, sometimes not so soon, when something tells me I did the right thing, and God’s will was played out as it should be.
Well, the lord certainly does work in mysterious ways (which is why I let him go his way while I go mine.) But I think its amusing that a movement which professes such coercive certainty about moral values could support this sort of ambiguity about a practice so grossly immoral as slavery.
Quaker: I wasn’t asking a question. I was saying that your question was a much tougher question. Then I attempted to answer it.
“I m pretty certain of the right thing to do” means just that — I’m “pretty certain.” Not absolutely certain, but I have a fairly well – working conscience.
It’s following the dictates of my conscience that presents the difficulty,as I alluded to above.
Gawd. I think it’s pretty safe to say there there has never been a bad action that did not have some good consequences. Just as there has never been a good action that did not have some consequences.
But what are the implications for our present-day actions once we recognize this? Would it make God happy if I did not oppose slavery, torture, war, poverty, oppression, on the grounds that He may be creating a future garden of delights from all these sufferings? I can’t divine all His purposes, but if He has created me with free will, then surely He wants me to use it to oppose evil when I see it. If He doesn’t, then I’d rather burn in hell forever than have anything to do with Him.
Most frequently, when people point out that past evil has led to good consequences, it is in an attempt to persuade people to put up with present-day evil. That is how Massie used it, and that is how Frank has used it in this thread.
That is what is despicable.
Wilbur: I can’t stop you from being a jerk, but I can call you one: You’re a jerk.
Most frequently, when people point out that past evil has led to good consequences, it is in an attempt to persuade people to put up with present-day evil.
That has nothing whatever to do with me, even if it were true — and I don’t believe it is. But, assuming it were true, why should that mean that that is what I have done. I did not “attempt to persuade [anyone] to put up with present-day evil.”
I can t divine all His purposes, but if He has created me with free will, then surely He wants me to use it to oppose evil when I see it.
That is correct, as far as I know. The question is, What if you can’t change it?
Do you “Curse God and die” as it says in the Book of Job (as you imply you would — “If He doesn t, then I d rather burn in hell forever than have anything to do with Him.”)?
If anything is unnecessarily wrong – headed (”evil” or “despicable” might be too strong — for me, anyway) — it’s the idea that you would take it on yourself to criticize me for what you believe to be true. I’m right here, reading the posts. How difficult would it have been for you to ask, “Are you attempting ‘to persuade people to put up with present-day evil’”?
Even easier: I believe that when people point out that past evil has led to good consequences, it is in an attempt to persuade people to put up with present-day evil. I think that is how Frank has used it in this thread.
That would have shown some intellectual integrity.
Massie certainly did argue that since slavery allegedly had good consequences (bring blacks to the USA), modern day black congregations should stfu about what they perceived as modern-day ills in the USA.
You, Frank, apparently don’t agree with Massie, at least not totally, but instead of joining in the condemnation or finding something else to argue about, here you are tut tut tutting at us out of control liberals who, in your view, are just as off-base as Massie in our own way:
Massie is wrong to think that God did the Africans a favor by putting them on the . Some of you are wrong to say that since slavery as an institution was wrong, no good came of it.
[btw: aside from the fact that none of actually said that, I have no idea what the link you put in that last sentence was supposed to prove]
In your other posts you exhibit sympathy with Massie’s way of thinking by reminding us sententiously of the inscrutibility of God’s designs, and by listing instances where good things have arisen from bad (Hawaii statehood from Pearl Harbor, etc.). For those of us with any political memory these are unmistakable elements of a tried and true reactionary discourse by which the Haves and their allies misuse religion to keep the Have-nots in their place: accept your lot because it is the lot that God has given you. Accept your suffering because God brings good things from suffering. I do find that discourse despicable. Massie buys into it whole hog. You just facilitate. In some ways your role here is a bit less despicable than Massie’s, and perhaps I should have made that distinction, but I do find it despicable.
Sorry if my posts upset you, Frank, but I say what I think. If it helps any you can understand “I believe…” at the beginning of all my posts, thus producing the exact same thing that you say that you wish I’d said in your last paragraph there. That’s all I’m doing here, saying what I think. If you think I’m wrong you’re free to let me know.
Look, Wilbur, you’re going nowhere with this: “Those of us with any political memory”, indeed. I guarantee you my “political memory” is better than yours — I’m probably damn near twice your age. And I am not suggesting that religion be used “to keep people in their place.”
That is, like, so 19th Century!
Your posts don’t upset me, Wilbur, I just like things squared away. I don’t liked to be told what my thinking is by other people, and, of course, it’s worse when they’re wrong — surely, you can appreciate that.
And, by the way, I wouldn’t hang my hat on the word “despicable.” It is a very pretentious and overblown word.
Yes, I know you’re wrong, but I’m not calling you despicable. All you lefties on this ‘blog need to understand that words mean things. And, if you’re going to disgree with someone, stick to basics: Don’t say a person is despicaable, for saying something you think they said.
If I say “a”, you can say “saying ‘a’ is despicable.”
If I say “b”, it is intellectually dishonest (and I’m being extremely diplomatic) to say, “You said ‘a’, and saying ‘a’ is despicable.”
By the way, you have tons of company on these threads, but its most common form is, “You’re saying ‘b’, but you’re a right winger, so we know you really mean ‘a’.”
Since I also am probably more superannuated than your average blog troll, I’d like to think that age by itself imparts wisdom. Sadly, it doesn’t. I may be going nowhere, Frank, but at least I’m not biting my own tail. Here in this post where you accuse me of distorting your position you engage in several distortions of your own. e.g.:
I did not say that you suggested that religion be used ‘to keep people in their place’.
I did not say that you were despicable.
I did not suggest that words do not mean things.
Perhaps these distortions are deliberate, perhaps they are a result of careless reading, or perhaps you read carefully but your brain cognitively slotted what I said into the pigeonhole for ‘what liberals usually say’. Those things can happen. In any case, you can come down off your high horse and apply to yourself all those santimonious strictures you normally reserve for us benighted lefties.
But since you feel misrepresented, I’ll go ahead and ask: for what purpose did you come on here, Frank, and take us to task for criticizing Massie’s idiocy? Put it in your own words.
And what’s wrong with “despicable”? Would you prefer “contemptible”? “abominable”? “execrable”? “disgusting”? “revolting”? Take your pick.
In your other posts you exhibit sympathy with Massie s way of thinking by reminding us sententiously of the inscrutibility of God s designs … these are unmistakable elements of a tried and true reactionary discourse by which the Haves and their allies misuse religion to keep the Have-nots in their place … You did say that?
I do find that discourse despicable… You just facilitate. In some ways your role here is a bit less despicable than Massie s … but I do find it despicable. You did say that?
My first post, as you can see, did not “Take [you] to task for criticizing Massie s idiocy?: One guy indicts all black conservatives == liberal fairness
What’s wrong with “despicable”? It’s “holier – than – thou”; sanctimonious — to me, anyway.
That’s what I’m saying…
In your other posts you exhibit sympathy with Massie s way of thinking by reminding us sententiously of the inscrutibility of God s designs & these are unmistakable elements of a tried and true reactionary discourse by which the Haves and their allies misuse religion to keep the Have-nots in their place & You did say that?
Yes, which is different from saying you openly advocated the use of religion for this despicable purpose.
I do find that discourse despicable& You just facilitate. In some ways your role here is a bit less despicable than Massie s & but I do find it despicable. You did say that?
Yes, which is different from saying that you yourself are despicable. Sometimes perfectly nice people play despicable roles and say despicable things. It’s up to the people who care about them to point it out so they can mend their ways. I care, Frank. I really do.
My first post, as you can see, did not Take [you] to task for criticizing Massie s idiocy?: One guy indicts all black conservatives == liberal fairness
Yes, your first post took Oliver to task for usurping the tried and true right-wing-tactic of argumentum ab extremo. How dare a liberal do that! But I wasn’t asking about your first post. You moved on to other topics. Still awaiting an answer on those.
What s wrong with despicable ? It s holier – than – thou ; sanctimonious to me, anyway.
Physician, heal thyself.
Wilbur: A wonderful example of “I didn’t say what you think I said. I said what you thought I meant”, combined with “I’m rubber , you’re glue.”
You say I’m wrong for using a tactic other conservatives have used, when not only is that irrelevant, but I didn’t even do it.
You moved on to other topics. Still awaiting an answer on those.
Keep waiting, if you choose. I did all the answering I’m going to do. If you’re not satified, read them again, until you understand what I wrote.
Then, if you truly have a question, ask away
Until then, quit while I’m ahead.
Wilbur: A wonderful example of I didn t say what you think I said. I said what you thought I meant
If, as you conservatives like to argue, the only meaning in lanugage is the meaning which the author of that language intends, then you have clearly misconstrued what I wrote.
You say I m wrong for using a tactic other conservatives have used
That’s not even close to what I said. More distortion.
You do, however, employ many common right-wing tactics in your posts. Chief among which is whining about people treating you the way you treat other people. Usually this tactic is used to distract attention from an untenable argument. Boring. Listen, Frank, this is the sound of me declaring victory and going home too.
The silence is deafening …
Frank;
Doesn’t all this sound vaguely familiar? A word to the wise is sufficient.
Yes it does, Leo: You’re minding my business instead of your own — again.
Leo: Why do you even bother with me? You so rarely have anything to say about what I say, because you are so busy trying to critique my comments, and give me “advice,” you’d think by know you would have given up.
Have you taken me under your wing? Am I a project of yours? Let me make it as clear as I can to you: If I never read another word that you typed for as long I lived, it wouldn’t affect me in the slightest, except, perhaps, positively.
In fact, you know what? I think that from now on, I won’t even read your posts. Yeah, that’s the ticket! I’m dropping out of “Leo school”
Free at last! Free at last! Thank God almighty, I’m free at least!
Type away, Leo!