Rove’s “Missing” Email
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That Karl Rove, he’s sure unlucky. First he accidentally reveals Valerie Plame’s covert identity, and now an email contradicting his previous testimony somehow didn’t get to the special prosecutor.
The White House’s handling of a potentially crucial e-mail sent by senior aide Karl Rove two years ago set off a chain of events that has led special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald to summon Rove for a fourth grand jury appearance this week. His return has created heightened concern among White House officials and their allies that Fitzgerald may be preparing to bring indictments when a federal grand jury that has been investigating the leak of a CIA agent’s identity expires at the end of October.
It’s almost like Rove perjured himself and commited a criminal conspiracy to cover it up.
Or something.
37 Responses to “Rove’s “Missing” Email”
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I beleive that is a violation of the Sarbanes/Oxley Act..It would be a shame if that is the only thing he could be found guilty of. But then, the Feds were unable to pin anything except income tax evasion on Al Capone, so it would be better than nothing.
BTW;
For those who are working on their sense of humor; that was a facetious comment. More snark than bark.
Wow people are losing and finding evidence everywhere. Just look at the case of Judy Miller’s amazing reappearing June 2003 notebook!
The whole Plame affair is unimportant to begin with in terms of actual impact. Those who argue Bubba’ s troubles were merely the result of partisan, Puritan curiosity about his sex life and that no real harm was done (other than to Ppaula Jones) can’t easily explain , other than partisan politics, why there is any real harm re Plame.
OTOH. The whole thrust of the Newsweek article is that Rove did not mention at the intitial interview with the FBI, his conversation with Cooper . What was said or not said at said converstaion then gets down to Cooper’s word versus Rove’s, an entirely different issue. I know leftists hate Rove and Bush so much that they celebrate any bad thing that happens to them, but I would really hate to see this evolve into the kind of crap Walsh pulled on Cap Weinberger.
Dugger
Wow Dugger, you sure are blind. Other than the fact that Bush & Co. destroyed the woman’s career, they put her at risk, they put her contacts at risk and they put her contact’s contacts at risk. Furthermore they exposed a CIA cover company, putting at risk all the CIA agents that used that company for cover, as well as their contacts and contact’s contacts. They did this for pure political reasons. Which incidently, undermines the confidence and morale of ALL CIA agents who now have to worry whether this administration will sell them out for a one week boost in the polls or to try and sell some bullshit.
You want to split hairs on possible legal consequences when the damage is very real in terms of harming United States National Security. Here is a very basic consequence that should have already been taken; Karl Rove, Libby, and anyone else who had anything to do with this or even the appearance of involvement should have their security clearances yanked pending investigation.
Dugger;
Whether or not Valerie Plame or any of her contacts were harmed seems light-years beyond the point.
Clinton was wrong to use his power to exploit vulnerable females. The social harm from this sort of predation is ongoing.
If political power was used (in a potentially dangerous manner) to extort control and consolidate more power without regard for the long-term consequences to national security; it rises to a higher level of harm.
Semant, OK. You believe Clinton exploited vulneable females and that that is very important. Expect you to kick inhere next time some idiot leftist yammers about the ‘Clenis’ or Bubba just got a bravo juniper.
Otherwise, I just can’t interpret this:
“If political power was used (in a potentially dangerous manner) to extort control and consolidate more power without regard for the long-term consequences to national security; it rises to a higher level of harm. ”
How does that have to do with Plame? Are you contending that somehow Republicans, or Bush via Rove or Libby or whoever, tried to “consolidate power” by outing Plame? Seriously, what power is there to ‘consolidate’ doing that? Bush is already president. He already had a war vote. What did he stand to gain? He’d have to void the Constittution to gain more power. Perhaps you meant his advisor may have been trying to spin the news. Is that tremendously serious. Do we to give the kids grief counseling? Every politiican does it. Its not a coup. If Rove or Libby or Cooper or Russert or anybody technically violated a disclosure law, tough noogies for them. The law applies. But spare me the Republican created Armageddon theories.
Dugger
Mitterpidge,
Just about everything in your post is wrong. First, Plame’s career was not destroyed. At the time of Novak’s column, she was not a covert field agent. In fact, she was never deep cover. Also, many analysts feel her usefulness, as any kind of field agent, was done the minute her 1998 marriage to Wilson was made public. Likwise her listing in Who’s Who. No one in the Bush administration has been found guilty of anything regarding Plame. Period. The CIA has many more cover companies and can shift people as needed to other companies. No impact. US security was not harmed. Plame was not in the field. She can assess WMD capabilities for as long as she wants.
And if you want to talk about real harm done to CIA agents and CIA morale, may I recommend you Google ABC News hero, Jake Tapper buddy, Philip Agee. Then tell me how important Plame is. Know who Richard Welch was. I thought not.
Dugger, Let Me Help with the Big Picture
In early October 2003, NEWSWEEK reported that immediately after Novak’s column appeared in July, Rove called MSNBC “Hardball” host Chris Matthews and told him that” WILSON’S WIFE WAS FAIR GAME” But White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters at the time that any suggestion that Rove had played a role in outing Plame was “totally ridiculous.” On Oct. 10, McClellan was asked directly if Rove and two other White House aides had ever discussed Valerie Plame with any reporters. McClellan said he had spoken with all three, and “those individuals assured me they were not involved in this.”
© 2005 Newsweek, Inc.
Last graph of Isikoff’s 7/11 article .( Unable to post link to article)
Dugger;
Why? I assume you are asking, would Bushco out Plame 1 1/2 years after the Niger trip by her husband?
In a word; plausible deniability. The White House knew they could not immediately release this info, as a direct causal link is more obvious.
Was this about Plame or her husband? Yes and no. It was more about keeping the ranks under control with a not-so-subtle message. But it was also payback to the perpetrators of the ‘crime’.
Semant,
No I would not ask why something happened (Bushco out Plame) when it has not been established at all as happening. I’m stating that I don’t think there is much of anything serious about the Plame affair except cheap political vendettas ala Cap Weinberger. You stated nothing to counteract that sentiment. You first treated it like its some big power play (“political power was used (in a potentially dangerous manner) to extort control and consolidate more power without regard for the long-term consequences to national security; it rises to a higher level of harm.”), but now it evidently is nothing more than payback to Wilson. And all of your remarks assume a crime has been committed. That has not been established. Not even a great moral transgression.
Read carefully. Its quite possible Rove said, in effect, to Cooper, that its BS that the WH suggested Wilson for Niger – that it was his wife who works there as a WMD type who suggested him. Rove does not mention Valerie Plame, does not mention she is an undercover agent and thereby has not technically broken a law. Now Cooper, with Whos Who out there and public marriage record available, says Valerie Plame instead of Wilson’s wife. not a technical legal violation, but between the two of them, they sort of outed Plame, but neither did anything illegal and neither tried to give her identity away. Not so glamorous as your version with evil, skulking Republicans and heroic noble Democrats, but quite likely in my book. And again, intelligence operatives have stated that as of the public announcement of her marriage to Wilson, Valerie had zero deep undercover value.
We have no knowledge of real harm, no knowledge of a real crime. What you might get is the crap like Walsh and the Democrats pulled on old Cap Weinberger. And I think that would bother even some of the more vrulent Bush haters.
Dugger
Conversely, if you’re one of those who kept repeating, “It’s not about the sex, it’s about the lyyyyyying…”
Quaker;
I don’t think that’s the argument Dugger is making. I think he has been consistent in his position that diviseness is perpetual in the game of ‘gotcha’.
Whether it’s Clinton and blowjobs, or blowback from cooked intel; the Plame matter/Clinton, are similar in that they are non-issues. I disagree with him .
And no, it is not Armagedon, neither was Watergate. Combine Hubris with Groupthink; you get dirty tricks and dirty lies. It does not have to be the end of the world before we call someone on it.
Dugger;
You keep going back to Weinberger..If that’s the template you are using to minimize the current situation, then the water you are carrying about past ‘witchhunts’ is yours to bear.
The technicalities of law are not always on the side of ‘right and wrong”.
Yes, no crime has been proven yet. I’m sure that if people are convicted there will still continue to be those who dispute the result as a Democratic rail job.
Dugger –
It seems to me that we have had this discussion before and nothing’s changed. You were wrong then and you’re wrong now.
Quaker,
I’m one saying it was all about lying under oath in a sexual harassment deposition, never, at the culmination, about a bravo juniper, and that no GREAT harm was done. Wrong yes. Immoral yes. Sad that it was the #1 law enforcement officer, yes. Great harm, no. End of morality as we know it, no. Grief counseling needed, no. Likewise Plame. Mitterpidge is wrong. Very little tangible or even symbolic harm done. if somebody committed a minot r technical violation, they should get a minor technical punishment.
Semant, You are right re Quaker. My point about Cap is that his real offense was not Iran Contra involvement but that Walsh decided he was obstructing evidence or some such because he forgot to mention to investigators some stuff about his own judgements re Iran Contra. The papers were in the library of Congress all along and anybody could have gotten them. They tried twice to get him. Did it the second time. In other words he ran afoul of the investigative process.
Dugger
Let’s look at the sophistry:
“Plame s career was not destroyed.”
Um, Dugger, does Valerie Wilson still work in her same capacity at the CIA as WMD analyst?
“At the time of Novak s column, she was not a covert field agent. In fact, she was never deep cover. Many analysts feel her usefulness, as any kind of field agent, was done the minute her 1998 marriage to Wilson was made public. Likwise her listing in Who s Who.”
First, you are claiming both that Wilson was never undercover in any real way but that somehow her marriage and her Who’s Who entry compromised her ability to work as a CIA operative. See any contradictions there? Second, care to cite these analysts who seem to beliece that CIA analysts not allowed to marry. Or are they not allowed to marry ambassadors? Or are they not allowed to invited any guests or even announce their marriage? Good lord, what are they supposed to tell their children?
“No one in the Bush administration has been found guilty of anything regarding Plame. Period.”
DUH! Not only is no one officially accussin anyone of a crime, an on-going investigation in no way precludes the possibility that they won’t be found guilty in the future. All we know is that there is an investigation on-going and we are speculating about the nature of that investigation. You seem to be questioning the validity of the investigation in the first place. Is that not also undermining the legitimacy of an important American institution?
“The CIA has many more cover companies and can shift people as needed to other companies. No impact.”
Which is why the CIA doesn’t care at all when it’s operatives are outed. I mean it isn’t like there’s any chance of them getting killed, like Richard Welch, or anything. So the Greek media outed Welch as a CIA agent. Big deal. The agency was big enough, it could have shuffled people around.
“US security was not harmed.”
How the fuck do you know?
Dugger –
The Valerie Wilson matter is a big deal because it could involve a violation of the law. Simple as that. If a law was broken the people who broke that law should face the consequences. Since you brought up Clinton, Clinton perjured himself and paid the price. Maybe not the ultimate price of impeachment, but he definitely faced the consequences for his actions. If a crime was committed by someone in the Bush White House they too should face the consequences of their actions. Or is it partisan Bush-hatred to suggest such a thing?
The reason you don’t think there’s any reason to suspect a crime has been committed is because you don’t have the first clue as to what you’re talking about. First, you are conflating knowledge of Valerie Wilson’s marital status with knowledge of her job and security status at the CIA. Second, you seem to think that Rove’s off the hook because he didn’t use Valerie Wilson’s proper name and that he didn’t tell Cooper that she was an undercover op. Neither of those things matter. What matters is what Rove knew about her security status not what he told Cooper about it. If Rove knew that Wilson’s wife was undercover, just telling Cooper that she worked at the CIA is a breach of, at the very least, the espionage act: revealing classified information. Because what was classified was not her marital status but her job at the CIA. Let’s be clear about this.
It doesn’t matter what was in the Whos Who citation because, and again, I’ll say this slowly, Wilson’s marital status was not and never was classified information. Why you can’t understand that is totally beyond me. The Whos Who entry does not say, Joseph Wilson is married to Valerie Plame … who works as a CIA WMD analyst. Is being married to an ambassador a dead give away that you work at the CIA? I think not. Let me put it another way. Cooper could have found out the name of Wilson’s wife without the help of Rove or Libby or anyone at the White House. Hell, I could have figured it out if I cared to. But why would Cooper or I care to unless we had the other bit of information that Rove leaked, that is her job at the CIA? Furthmore, neither Cooper nor I would have been able to find out that Wilson worked for a CIA front company on WMD intelligence issues unless someone with prior knowledge of that information told us directly or pointed us deliberately and clearly in that direction. Rove told Cooper directly that “Wilson’s wife” was involved in the trip because she worked at the CIA. What’s important in this sentence is not the presence or absence of Valerie Wilson’s proper name. Why you can’t see that is again beyond me. What was important was the information Rove gave about Wilson’s wife’s job: She worked at the CIA.
All that’s needed to prove a crime is to prove that Rove knew “Wilson’s wife” was a protected CIA operative. That’s it. Will Fitzgerald prove that? I don’t know. We’ll see. But you’re argument that no crime could have possibly been committed based on what we know is just too stupid for words.
frame,
You really don’t have a clue at times.
Lets run down your screwy thinking:
First: “big deal because it could involve a violation of the law. ”
Ever hear of technicalities? Jaywalking? All jaywalking is a big deal, frame?? Jaywalking the same as mass murder, frame??? Logic, frame??? Sense of proportion???
Second. You totally miss the point re Plame/Wilson and the name game. The CIA agent was valerie Plame not “Wilson’s wife”. In the Rove/Cooper conversation Rove is reported to have mentioned “Wilson’s wife” works at the CIA, while Cooper then said, later, Valerie Plame. Connecting the two. Of course one could industriously research and figure that out, but that does not mean Rove is guilty of anything . Or Cooper.
Also understand foreign intelligence services would have paid attention to Wilson’s marriage to Valerie and the Whos Who listing. Its not important to you because your mind is made up. Google industriously and you can find analysts who believe that the minute the Wilson’s announced their marriage publicly, her identity as a covert agent identity was worthless.
This too is totally idiotic. “All that s needed to prove a crime is to prove that Rove knew Wilson s wife was a protected CIA operative” . Don’t we have to prove Cooper is telling the truth or is Roves’knowledge’ just suffiecient for your purposes? wingers? Don’t we have to prove, if he did it, that Rove did it first (I mean we are outing Val right here and committing crimes, if it can be done several times, right?). Don’t we have to prove if Rove did it, it wasn’t common knowledge (that Val was CIA) . Don’t we have to prove that Val was a true undercover agent (I’m sure the statute says a helluva lot more than “protected”). So that ain’t it, frame. Not by a long shot.
Dugger,
Dugger,
On behalf of the families of the 2,000 Americans who have died so far in Iraq, I just want to say that the whole Plame Affair IS very important.
Wow, Dugger, you really have those talking points down pat. Congrats. Plame was a covert asset of the CIA. You can’t dance around that, remember it was the CIA who felt they were wronged and it was the CIA that prompted the current investigation.
Trying semantics with Wilson’s wife and her legal name of Plame is just so incredibly lame I can’t believe I just read that. Let me double check to make sure you weren’t kidding…nope you were serious. Connecting Wilson’s wife and her actual name probably took little research not industrious difficulties like you imply.
Plame was covert before she was married and continued doing covert work after she was married. She was not a “deep cover” agent, but she contacted and handled “deep cover” agents, possibly making her uncovering worse because it risked unmasking several people besides herself.
One last thought, this administration has been very poor at keeping national secrets. Remember Chalabi leaking classified info to Iran? They can give information to Dobson but won’t share it with the senate? Etc…
Shorter Dugger:
Leftist hate for Bush and Rove mitigates the seriousness of all crime(s) committed. Although Paula Jones eventually received a decent nose as an indirect of her harrowing experience, she was nonetheless forever harmed and the Clenis should have been removed from office.
Where is the GOP outcry about the “rule of law”? Why are all these bleeding heart wingers soft on crime?
Republicans say that compromising the identity of undercover agents fighting terrorism is no big deal. Democrats feel otherwise.
Damn it. I just can’t resist. If a foreign intelligence service looked in the Who’s Who, what information would they find there? They would find that Joseph Wilson married a woman who’s maiden name was Valerie Plame. How, pray tell, does one get from that bit of information to Valerie Plame is a covert CIA operative? Please, enlighten me. Are all wives of ambassador’s automatically suspected of being covert CIA operatives? Suspected sure, maybe, just like all ambassadors and diplomatic personnel could be working for the CIA. But, since you’re big on proof these days, does a Who’s Who entry consistitute proof, of anything, beyond the fact that a woman name Valerie Plame married a guy named Joe Wilson? Do foreign intelligence services tail every ambassador’s wife? What in a Who’s Who entry would possibly rise to the level of this kind of suspicion? Presumably the Wilson’s were allowed to invite people to the wedding. Or were they forced to have the ceremony in a black box? Or, would you believe, a cone of silence (Don Adams, RIP)?
But let’s get to the real point of stupidity here. Once again you are arguing that the Who’s Who entry would have compromised Plame’s effectiveness as a CIA agent while, at the same time, doubting whether she was ever undercover at all. If she was compromised wasn’t she covert at some point? And if she was covert at some point, maybe the CIA had an interest in not having her position leaked to the press anyway. Hell, they don’t even put the names of dead agents on their memorial wall. But even that’s all bullshit because what you’re asking everyone to buy is that the CIA forwarded the case to the DOJ, the DOJ appointed a special prosecutor and the special prosecutor got a panel of judges to throw a journalist in jail for 80 plus days all over the course of a two year investigation but that no one at any point took the time to check if Plame’s identity was being protected by the CIA. That’s you’re ultimate point? That after two years and countless subpeonas and interviews and the jailing of Judy Miller, Fitzgerald is going to come out and say, “Woops. It turns out her identity wasn’t being protected by the CIA, afterall.”? Puhleaze!
Dugger –
I started writing another long comment trying to use small, simple easy words for you to follow and understand but what’s the point. I just want to ask you one thing. Do ever say the shit you think out loud before you type it? You know, shit like this: ‘The CIA agent was valerie Plame not Wilson s wife .’ You should say it out loud to yourself, maybe even looking in the mirror, if you can still face yourself. I think you’d realize just how assinine it really sounds.
Mitterpidge,
I blew your marshmallow tugboat out of the water and all you come back with is is something about covert versus deep cover which was not at all part of the conversation. You had poor unemployed Val out begging in Times Square and the CIA in a deep malais (ala Jimmy Carter), on its last legs, thanks to the evil genius. All that go away? Western civilization now safe? BTW, did you read about the leftists very best friend Philip Agee, like I suggested and compare the impact of Plame versus Agee? Leftists just love Agee. Whats the difference?
Matty,
On behalf of my cat’s *ss I want to say that your comment had nothing to do with this thread.
buma,
Really intelligent comment. Your mommy or daddy write it for you? If not, all on your own, tell us which “crimes’ you are talking about. Don’t try to get off the hook, now. Crimes. The clock is ticking.
frame,
Have to dispose of the ankle biters first. More later.
Dugger
frame,
You should resist. Plame was reportedly compromised as early as 1994 by Aldrich Ames. She was brought backt to washington because of this compromise. Veteran NY TImes Bush hater Kristoff acknowledges Valerie had long since quit being an undercover field agent.
Further more, intelligence services have scads of people tracking the moves and the activities of persons of interest in foreign target countries. They catalog, track and keep logs of the movements of scientists, diplomats and politicians and many. many more and their families. Its the part of intelligence work nobody understands. the mind numbing cross referencing of publicly available info. Sometimes you can combine this data with classified tidbits to gain valuable intel. Foreign intelligence services would have been on to Valerie when Wilson was announced for the yellow cake job. Her NAME would have been back checked and tied to Wilson via Whos Who marriage records etc. , or via other intel. And thats assuming she wasn’t compeltly blown by Ames anyway -as reported. You are naive if you don’t think intelligence services track that deeply. They do.
AAnd what I am telling t you ids not that any one source is at issue here: Whos Who, marriage record, Novak, etc but rather the sources taken collectively. One source verifies another. So hold off on the “stupidity” until you have the brains to understand the real process.
My real point (have you been paying attention?) was and is all along, that no great harm has been done by the Plame affair. Quirte likely no harm has been done. if individuals committed technical violations of the law, they should pay the appropriate penalty. But to make out that the Palme issue has done dmaage to our intelligence ssytem or that is dealt the CIA a heavy blow is preposterous bullsh*t. The Plame affair is primarily a partisan vendetta. In terms of real harm done, it doesn’t even show up on the scope. Special prosecutors are routinely used by both sides for partisan revenge. You are aware of that, right? This is all about Bush hate.
Dugger
Yes, Dugger, the DOJ, under John Ashcroft, used Fitzgerald to exact partisan revenge on Bush. The DOJ was forced into doing the bidding of the Democratic minority. That makes so much fucking sense I’m going to go beat my head with a hammer.
What harm was done? Who cares? This is all about Bush hate? Are you kidding me? At the very least someone in the Bush White House may have revealed classified information to the press. This is no big deal to you. Just like jaywalking, right? Why yes, of course, it is. I mean everyone reveals classified information now and then. Why just the other day, after reading Who’s Who, I outed two clandestine CIA analysts before lunch. What the hell, right? Everyone does it. You brought up Richard Welch. I bet his outing in the Greek media was no big deal, just the intelligence equivalent of jaywalking, right up until he was killed. Neither you nor I have any idea what long term, widespread harm was done by this. Indeed, the unpredictable nature of the consequences is probably one reason why the CIA frowns on outing anyone at any level of undercover protection. But the real question is what harm would be done if the outing of a CIA operative by high ranking government officials was treated as no big deal. What a precedent that would set. Like if Clinton faced no consequences for lying under oath. Even if it was about an extra-marital affair, what kind of precedent would that be to set? It’s okay for Presidents to lie under oath? Similarly, are you saying that it’s okay for White Hosue officials to leak classified information about CIA operatives? Of course it isn’t.
You say that Plame was “reportedly compromised” by Ames. Bzzzt. Wrong. The CIA suspected, but wasn’t sure, that she was compromised. They didn’t know for certain either way. So the agency brought her back to the states in an abudance of caution. You’ll note in the Welch case CIA officials had warned Welch not to live in the same home in Athens that his predecessors had lived in even before his identity was revealed in the Greek press because the house was already under suspicion. He did it anyway. So Welch may have been under suspicion as a CIA chief anyway. The outing of his identity just sealed the deal. After the Ames incident, the CIA took the precaution of recalling Plame but she was still working NOC. When in doubt, the CIA acted with caution but kept her job status protected. Plame was still working NOC after she returned to the states. So the whole argument that the CIA didn’t care about Plame’s clandestine status after Aimes is itself bullshit. Of course it did. I ask you again, why did Tenet’s CIA forward the case to the DOJ in the first place? Was Tenet playing a partisan revenge game? Let’s not forget, George “Slam Dunk” Tenet won the Medal of Freedom.
You say this:
“Foreign intelligence services would have been on to Valerie when Wilson was announced for the yellow cake job. Her NAME would have been back checked and tied to Wilson via Whos Who marriage records etc. , or via other intel.”
First of all, when and where was it “announced” that Wilson was working on the “yellow cake job.”? Second, you’re completely eliding one crucial bit of information. If Spy X knew that Joseph Wilson was being sent to Niger on a WMD related mission and Spy X used Who’s Who to find out that Wilson was married to a woman who’s maiden name was Valerie Plame, how does Spy X put those two bits of information together to arrive at “Valerie Plame works for the CIA.”? How? How is this leap of logic accomplished? Is it this other intel you speak of? Talk about rank speculation on your part.
I shouldn’t even have to re-argue the “Plame”/”Wilson’s wife” name game you revel in because it’s stupidity is so patently obvious that not even the slickest lawyer in the world would try to pass it off before a grand jury. If Rove knew that Valerie Plame Wilson was working NOC for the CIA, it wouldn’t matter if he replaced her proper name with any number of options, be it “Wilson’s wife,” or “the mother of Wilson’s children.” It doesn’t matter that Rove left it to Cooper or Novak or anyone else to find her proper name. Because — and here’s where we always seem to loose you, so just read it slowly — HER PROPER NAME WAS NOT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION. Her job at the CIA was. In revealing that “Wilson’s wife” worked for the CIA, Rove was still leaking classified information. One law says he had to know it was classified for there to be a crime. Another, the espionage act, says his foreknwoledge of her status is irrelevant to the question of whether a crime was committed. Fitzgerald will no doubt weigh the evidence and figure out what to do. But the idea that there is no reason at all for an investigation — and this is my point which you seem to have missed — is simply empty spin.
Re crime(s),
Task One for the prosecutor is to determine that a crime did indeed take place. If Fitzgerald determined there was no crime, then the investigation would not have continued all these months. The guy is no Brownie; he is competent enough to know his job well.
It is a crime for a person in the government to willfully leak a CIA operative’s identity. Perjury is also a crime, as are conspiracy and destroying evidence. The behavior of those in the President’s inner circle has made them vulnerable to these charges, beginning with the 12-hour notice Gonzalez gave the WH before requiring the submittal of files, phone logs, email, etc. http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20050715.html
Partisan hack Patrick Fitzgerald:
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20051011/a_fitzgerald11.art.htm
Friends and critics agree that his integrity is unassailable and that he is relentless. The list of people he has prosecuted including al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden, former Illinois governor George Ryan and New York mobsters shows he has no qualms about going after the powerful.
Fitzgerald’s politics, motivations and style have prompted debate.
He has no agenda, says David Kelley, former U.S. attorney in New York and a longtime friend. He looks at the facts, uncovers the facts and goes where the facts lead him.
Mary Jo White, who was Fitzgerald’s boss when she was U.S. attorney in Manhattan, says she knows nothing about his political views if he has any, and he may not.
Fitzgerald, who declined interview requests, is registered to vote with no party affiliation.
frame said,
“I m going to go beat my head with a hammer. ‘
Well, fine, but try and avoid any vital organs
BTW, you’re so easy. Republican scourge Lawrence Walsh was appointed by, (are you ready?) Bush! But, the original Clinton special prosecutor was appointed by (are you ready?) Clinton!! So your first paragraph was a joke, right? Hopefully, you are smart enough to not argue that the entity responsible for appointing a special prosecutor can’t suffer by that same prosecutor. Right?
And, if you wipe away the froth for a minute, the whole point is that when a left wing hero, Philip Agee, outs lots and lots of CIA agents and gets at least one murdered, nary a peep from the left. As late as 2003, he was the subject of a fawning Jake Tapper interview on ABC (from Stalinist Cuba, natch). Now, OTOH, we have no idea if Val was even outed (if Ames compromised her or she was figured out by agents ahead of time, she wasn’t outed) , if anybody in the administration did it, nobody has been murdered, not one other agent, undercover or otherwise has been mentioned, and you guys are going berserk – without even a crime being identified. Agee is a leftist hero and not a peep about that.
Here: “The CIA suspected, but wasn t sure, that she was compromised” you are merely talking out of your *ss, unless you have access to TS, code word CIA intell and have just decided to commit a crime. She was pulled back after Ames. Thats highly suggestive.
And again you have no idea of how intelligence agencies work. Now sit down, a sec. They have a lot more people working on intelligence and many of them are smarter than you. So the fact that you can’t figure it out, doesn’t mean they couldn’t. I’m telling you that all major intelligence agencies keep logs of the movements and activities of all sorts of VIPs over days, months and years. They take pictures at airports, gov. buildings etc etc. The whole purpose is marry many extraneous bits of information into an intelligence picture. Its done every day.
And I hope you know Wilson went public with his Africa BS before Novak’s column and had talked to reporters. You know that right? So if some joker is saying I went to Africa and investigated these claims and we know he must have done that at the behest of the CIA, we, being only average intelligence officers, would wonder about his family. Hmm. Val Wilson. Val Plame. Lets invesitgate. A computer does it in seconds.
Dugger
Dugger;
Are you saying that because it can’t be proven someone was killed as a result of the ‘outing’, no harm was done?
And are you further saying;
“Philip Agee, outs lots and lots of CIA agents and gets at least one murdered, nary a peep from the left.”
If harm can be proven from the ‘outing’, it is not a crime because others have done it and gotten away with it?
Semant,
Are you saying that because it can t be proven someone was killed as a result of the outing , no harm was done?
Not at all. In fact, I’m not particualry arguing “no harm” was done (though that is possible), rather not very much harm. I say if there was a techncal violation of the law, say if Rove did tell Cooper that Wilson’s wife works someplace in the agency and that that is a technical violation of some law, he should get a punishment commensurate with the real harm of the violation (within the statutes) – if it occurred. Same w/Cooper, Russert, etc.
And, yes, the fact that Agee committed much more egregious violations than is even being alleged here, does not mean a violation didn’t occur. But same hasn’t been proven at all. And my overall ultimate argument is , no major harm done at all and that all the hoopla on the left and the MSM about this issue this has nothing much at all to do with national security or the CIA’s efficiency/security (else, why didn’t we hear from them on Agee – even in 2003 when he was on TV), but more with partisan politics – i.e., Get Bush!
My guess is and has been that Valerie Plame was compromised a long time ago. That it was known widely in inside circles that she worked in the CIA. (as a side, I worked in my blue suit days for a while at a place called FTD in Ohio. We interfaced with the CIA a lot. I knew the names on numerous persons working at the agency, socially -mostly drab analysts- and had nothing to do with them via work channels. ). I can believe and do believe that the working locale of a higher profile personality like Ms Wilson would be known in inside, non Agency circles.
If you want to hang Rove at all costs, and you find a technical violation of the law that allows you do it, thats that, but don’t kid me or yourselves as to why you want to do it.
Dugger
Dugger;
I am willing to wait for the facts of the case, The jury system is all we have, If that can’t be trusted; what do we have here?
Yes partisan politics plays a part in this. Do you think the reluctance to exercise political power, when you have it, should give those who may have nefarious motivations a clear path knowing that the clarion call “Partisan Politics!” will defuse any proper legal prosecutions? Perhaps we should trust the system we have. As imperfect as it is; there is no good alternative.
Semant,
But prosecutors often have leeway as to whether to prosecute or not. It can be equally proper to prosecute a suspected violation or to not prosecute. That decision is made daily. And if you are arguing should someone be able to holler “partisan politics” and be above the law, well, the answer is, of course, no. And who has said anything about the system as a whole? We’re talking about happenings within the discretion of the system. Is every decison made within the system OK? Hopefully, you a liberal (I guess) are not saying if the system did it , it should never be challenged.
I’ll say it agin. This is primarily about partisan politics. If not for partisan politics, it wouldn’t be happening. How many liberals are hollering for Sandy Berger’s scalp if the sanctity of our security system is the issue?
Dugger
Dugger;
There is no need to holler for Berger’s scalp. He could have said ‘I don’t recall….I have no recollection…..But he didn’t.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,152108,00.html
framone :
Things are not a big deal because “it could involve a violation of the law”. That is a tired position where the alleged seriousness of the charge outweighs whether or not the charge is, in fact, true, and rises to the level of a crime.
“All that s needed to prove a crime is to prove that Rove knew Wilson s wife was a protected CIA operative”. Intentional mistatement, or blissful ignorance? There is so much more involved in this alleged crime than your trite little explanation, but you know that. Was the CIA actively trying to protect her identity? Apparently not when Novak went asking. Just one aspect of the many, but when looked at individually, the likelihood of a crime being committed decreases considerably.
Is it not possible to be a CIA operative, and at the same time, not be deep undercover?
You claim to be “speculating” about the possible results of the investigation, yet unequivocably state that they are guilty of a crime, and that any view of the available information that takes a position other than yours is wrong. How is that?
buma : You are an idiot.