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	<title>Comments on: Edwards on Poverty</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/</link>
	<description>Like Kryptonite To Stupid</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Semanticleo</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-7000</link>
		<dc:creator>Semanticleo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Sep 2005 22:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-7000</guid>
		<description>Frank;

Dodging the discussion.  I asked you for some basis for your pejorative use of the phrase.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,

What is wrong with the concept?  I do not associate the idea with Marxism, I associate the concept with that of the early Christian Congregation.  It seems you have a rather narrow view of ideas in general.  I am not a marxist any more than you are a nazi.  I have a spectre of Socialism in my bag of ideas because I am not afraid of names.  I do not like to be cubby-holed as a this, or a that.  I, like my genetic gene pool, am a combination of disciplines and dogmas that changes as I learn.  How do you learn?  I hope one of the reasons you visit this site is to learn about the other point of view.  That is why I visit Powerline. Little Green Footballs and such.  Is that why you are here Frank?

Just once I would like to hear a direct answer to a direct question without all the bobbing and weaving.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Frank;</p>
<p>Dodging the discussion.  I asked you for some basis for your pejorative use of the phrase.</p>
<p>From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,</p>
<p>What is wrong with the concept?  I do not associate the idea with Marxism, I associate the concept with that of the early Christian Congregation.  It seems you have a rather narrow view of ideas in general.  I am not a marxist any more than you are a nazi.  I have a spectre of Socialism in my bag of ideas because I am not afraid of names.  I do not like to be cubby-holed as a this, or a that.  I, like my genetic gene pool, am a combination of disciplines and dogmas that changes as I learn.  How do you learn?  I hope one of the reasons you visit this site is to learn about the other point of view.  That is why I visit Powerline. Little Green Footballs and such.  Is that why you are here Frank?</p>
<p>Just once I would like to hear a direct answer to a direct question without all the bobbing and weaving.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank_D</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6999</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank_D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6999</guid>
		<description>Leo: No you don&#039;t -- sorry

SadieB -- So? Should I be surprised?

To both of you -- the next time some conservative in these threads suggests that liberals are basically Marxists, I would expect you two to own up to it, as you have here.

p.s. SadieB: You couldn&#039;t possibly be more wrong about Kirk; I can&#039;t even tell you where to begin to truly understand him. Sad.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leo: No you don&#8217;t &#8212; sorry</p>
<p>SadieB &#8212; So? Should I be surprised?</p>
<p>To both of you &#8212; the next time some conservative in these threads suggests that liberals are basically Marxists, I would expect you two to own up to it, as you have here.</p>
<p>p.s. SadieB: You couldn&#8217;t possibly be more wrong about Kirk; I can&#8217;t even tell you where to begin to truly understand him. Sad.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: SadieB</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6998</link>
		<dc:creator>SadieB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Sep 2005 03:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6998</guid>
		<description>Hey Frank since we&#039;re on the topic of ideology now, I finally got around to reading that Russel Kirk you mentioned. It was pretty bad, worse than I expected even. Just straight up Authoritarianism, really.

I learned several things. That the poor are poor because they are genetically inferior (from The Injustice of Equality). Justice is nothing more than a matter of maintaining private property rights (from The Meaning of Justice), and the proper role of the Church is to preach obedience to the State (ibid). Also no other nation is capable of democracy, since they lack our unique British heritage (The Degradation of the Democratic Dogma).

So now we know where you&#039;re coming from, right? I believe I&#039;ll take Marx over Kirk, for Marx once told us:

Ideas won by our intelligence, embodied in our outlook, and forged in our conscience, are chains from which we cannot tear ourselves away without breaking our hearts; they are demons we can overcome only by submitting to them.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Frank since we&#8217;re on the topic of ideology now, I finally got around to reading that Russel Kirk you mentioned. It was pretty bad, worse than I expected even. Just straight up Authoritarianism, really.</p>
<p>I learned several things. That the poor are poor because they are genetically inferior (from The Injustice of Equality). Justice is nothing more than a matter of maintaining private property rights (from The Meaning of Justice), and the proper role of the Church is to preach obedience to the State (ibid). Also no other nation is capable of democracy, since they lack our unique British heritage (The Degradation of the Democratic Dogma).</p>
<p>So now we know where you&#8217;re coming from, right? I believe I&#8217;ll take Marx over Kirk, for Marx once told us:</p>
<p>Ideas won by our intelligence, embodied in our outlook, and forged in our conscience, are chains from which we cannot tear ourselves away without breaking our hearts; they are demons we can overcome only by submitting to them.</p>
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		<title>By: Semanticleo</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6997</link>
		<dc:creator>Semanticleo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Sep 2005 03:09:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6997</guid>
		<description>Sounds a lot like  From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,  to me.

Frank;

Is there something wrong with this idea?  I don&#039;t get it?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds a lot like  From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,  to me.</p>
<p>Frank;</p>
<p>Is there something wrong with this idea?  I don&#8217;t get it?</p>
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		<title>By: Frank_D</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6996</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank_D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Sep 2005 03:09:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6996</guid>
		<description>I meant to say, &quot;Did he say  Working Society , or  Workers  Paradise ?

And. yes, that&#039;s what I meant.

Sounds a lot like &quot;From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,&quot; to me.

Here in America, wage earners are called employees.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I meant to say, &#8220;Did he say  Working Society , or  Workers  Paradise ?</p>
<p>And. yes, that&#8217;s what I meant.</p>
<p>Sounds a lot like &#8220;From each according to his ability, to each according to his need,&#8221; to me.</p>
<p>Here in America, wage earners are called employees.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Semanticleo</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6995</link>
		<dc:creator>Semanticleo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Sep 2005 02:09:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6995</guid>
		<description>Did he  Working Society , or  Workers  Paradise ?

Frank;

I guess that&#039;s your way of saying this sounds like Karl Marx rehashed?

Or am I reading to much into the cryptology?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did he  Working Society , or  Workers  Paradise ?</p>
<p>Frank;</p>
<p>I guess that&#8217;s your way of saying this sounds like Karl Marx rehashed?</p>
<p>Or am I reading to much into the cryptology?</p>
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		<title>By: stick</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6994</link>
		<dc:creator>stick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 23:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6994</guid>
		<description>Joe Schmoe-
Here&#039;s another idea whose time has come: Every progressive should repeat to themselves 3 times:&quot;Trent Lott and Grover Norquist do not speak for all conservatives&quot;.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe Schmoe-<br />
Here&#8217;s another idea whose time has come: Every progressive should repeat to themselves 3 times:&#8221;Trent Lott and Grover Norquist do not speak for all conservatives&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Schmoe</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6993</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Schmoe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 23:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6993</guid>
		<description>Before the 2004 election, Trent Lott was giving speeches about tax reform.  He said, approximately,  the middle class tax advantage was unfair to most Americans.  Working families get to deduct interest on their mortgages and it was unfair to banks and business.  The myth of every family owning their own home was hurting America by taking money out of the economy that could be invested in more important things...like apartment houses and Wallmarts and rightwing networks.

He had given the speech to grovers and norquists three times before someone told him that the mortgage associations and the real estate associations were furious.  He kept making the speech, but quieter.  Ask him about it.  He really believes middle class home ownership is hurting America.

Maybe you basement conservatives should consider what would happen to you if your family could not afford the house you live in.   And how could a family, that has children so stupid that they must scream &#039;Marx&#039; and &#039;Commie&#039; at  everything they do not understand, be smart enough to buy their own house without the Middle Class tax deduction?

Here is an idea whose time has come; Every conservative family should just give up that tax deduction as a protest to the communist idea that every one has a right to their own home.  It is fair, and honest and balanced.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before the 2004 election, Trent Lott was giving speeches about tax reform.  He said, approximately,  the middle class tax advantage was unfair to most Americans.  Working families get to deduct interest on their mortgages and it was unfair to banks and business.  The myth of every family owning their own home was hurting America by taking money out of the economy that could be invested in more important things&#8230;like apartment houses and Wallmarts and rightwing networks.</p>
<p>He had given the speech to grovers and norquists three times before someone told him that the mortgage associations and the real estate associations were furious.  He kept making the speech, but quieter.  Ask him about it.  He really believes middle class home ownership is hurting America.</p>
<p>Maybe you basement conservatives should consider what would happen to you if your family could not afford the house you live in.   And how could a family, that has children so stupid that they must scream &#8216;Marx&#8217; and &#8216;Commie&#8217; at  everything they do not understand, be smart enough to buy their own house without the Middle Class tax deduction?</p>
<p>Here is an idea whose time has come; Every conservative family should just give up that tax deduction as a protest to the communist idea that every one has a right to their own home.  It is fair, and honest and balanced.</p>
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		<title>By: cellulose</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6992</link>
		<dc:creator>cellulose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6992</guid>
		<description>I thought the government exists only to cut taxes and go to war?

John Edwards clearly has not gotten the memo.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought the government exists only to cut taxes and go to war?</p>
<p>John Edwards clearly has not gotten the memo.</p>
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		<title>By: elrod</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6991</link>
		<dc:creator>elrod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 22:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6991</guid>
		<description>Jay,
You are making an illogical point here. He said, &quot;even when our government failed...American citizens stepped up.&quot;  The words &quot;even when&quot; are not the same as &quot;because&quot;.  What he is saying is actually identical to what you are saying: regardless of what the government did or didn&#039;t do, the people did their share. His problem is that the government didn&#039;t do anything in addition to what the people did privately. And that&#039;s a shame because the government can do a whole lot of good here.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay,<br />
You are making an illogical point here. He said, &#8220;even when our government failed&#8230;American citizens stepped up.&#8221;  The words &#8220;even when&#8221; are not the same as &#8220;because&#8221;.  What he is saying is actually identical to what you are saying: regardless of what the government did or didn&#8217;t do, the people did their share. His problem is that the government didn&#8217;t do anything in addition to what the people did privately. And that&#8217;s a shame because the government can do a whole lot of good here.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay C</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6990</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6990</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;That s why even when our government failed to respond to Katrina, American citizens stepped up in an extraordinary way.&lt;/i&gt;

Oh please. People didn&#039;t step in &lt;i&gt;because&lt;/i&gt; of what the government did or didn&#039;t do. People helped &lt;i&gt;regardless&lt;/i&gt; of all that because that&#039;s what Americans do. They don&#039;t need to follow the governments lead to lend fellow citizens a helping hand in their time of need.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>That s why even when our government failed to respond to Katrina, American citizens stepped up in an extraordinary way.</i></p>
<p>Oh please. People didn&#8217;t step in <i>because</i> of what the government did or didn&#8217;t do. People helped <i>regardless</i> of all that because that&#8217;s what Americans do. They don&#8217;t need to follow the governments lead to lend fellow citizens a helping hand in their time of need.</p>
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		<title>By: SaveFarris</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6989</link>
		<dc:creator>SaveFarris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:09:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6989</guid>
		<description>Too bad Edwards is a chickenhawk when it comes to Hurricane Relief.  According to the Immutable Laws of Liberals, that means his opinion is automatically deemed irrelevant.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Too bad Edwards is a chickenhawk when it comes to Hurricane Relief.  According to the Immutable Laws of Liberals, that means his opinion is automatically deemed irrelevant.</p>
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		<title>By: sam</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6988</link>
		<dc:creator>sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 21:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6988</guid>
		<description>cellulose,

What happens when we &quot;ask&quot; and not &quot;force&quot; people to &quot;hold up their end of the bargain&quot; by staying in school, by working hard to obtain a marketable skill so as to obtain a higher-paying job and by waiting until after marriage before having children and they thumb their nose at you and refuse?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>cellulose,</p>
<p>What happens when we &#8220;ask&#8221; and not &#8220;force&#8221; people to &#8220;hold up their end of the bargain&#8221; by staying in school, by working hard to obtain a marketable skill so as to obtain a higher-paying job and by waiting until after marriage before having children and they thumb their nose at you and refuse?</p>
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		<title>By: rightisright</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6987</link>
		<dc:creator>rightisright</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:09:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6987</guid>
		<description>He does have a knack for making Marx sound all flowery and fun.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He does have a knack for making Marx sound all flowery and fun.</p>
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		<title>By: Brandon</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6986</link>
		<dc:creator>Brandon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6986</guid>
		<description>&quot;In the Working Society, everyone will also be asked to hold up their end of the bargain to work, to hold off having kids until they re ready, and to do their part for their kids when the time comes.&quot;

Just how does Edwards propose enforcing this virtue?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In the Working Society, everyone will also be asked to hold up their end of the bargain to work, to hold off having kids until they re ready, and to do their part for their kids when the time comes.&#8221;</p>
<p>Just how does Edwards propose enforcing this virtue?</p>
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		<title>By: cellulose</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6985</link>
		<dc:creator>cellulose</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6985</guid>
		<description>Edwards uses the word &#039;asked,&#039; not &#039;forced.&#039;

Not all that ballsy of a statement.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Edwards uses the word &#8216;asked,&#8217; not &#8216;forced.&#8217;</p>
<p>Not all that ballsy of a statement.</p>
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		<title>By: Frank_D</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6984</link>
		<dc:creator>Frank_D</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:09:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6984</guid>
		<description>Did he &quot;Working Society&quot;, or &quot;Workers&#039; Paradise&quot;?
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did he &#8220;Working Society&#8221;, or &#8220;Workers&#8217; Paradise&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: robot_nixon</title>
		<link>http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/19/edwards-on-poverty/#comment-6983</link>
		<dc:creator>robot_nixon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Sep 2005 19:09:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://improveman.com/ow2008/?p=566#comment-6983</guid>
		<description>The magazine he is talking about the &quot;The Economist&quot; their cover a week or two ago was, &quot;The Shaming of America.&quot;  I think they were pretty fair in their analysis for the fuckup of handling Katrina.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The magazine he is talking about the &#8220;The Economist&#8221; their cover a week or two ago was, &#8220;The Shaming of America.&#8221;  I think they were pretty fair in their analysis for the fuckup of handling Katrina.</p>
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