Eric Muller details some documents that continue to debunk the central thesis of Michelle Malkin’s book that defended and supports the idea of racially based internment of American citizens. So far Malagang is silent. So go give her a clue.
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Well if the lynch mob wishes to go Malkin a ‘clue’, perhaps they would like to be armed with facts and rationality. Muller is citing an Asst. Sec of War memo. He, Muller ( I have no racial animus towards Muller so I want play mean games with his name), glosses over the phrase “for the most part.” That would suggest most are not suspected spies, but some ARE. Thus it suggests Malkin’s MAGIC point, which is is in defense of liberal Democrat FDR, stands.
Dugger, Put Down The Rope And Have A Drink Boys
“I have no racial animus towards Muller so I want play mean games with his name”
What the hell does this statement mean? It apparently means that a) you do hold racial animus towards other people (there is a name for that) and b) amongst the way you act on your racial animi is to try to bring people down for racial reasons and c) you are aware of this and you still do it.
It means, cypher, that the reference to her Filipino name is racially motivated…
It means that Dugger is not using Muller’s name to cast an ethnic slur…
It means that you didn’t know that (bad) or are pretending you didn’t know that (worse)…
“Thus it suggests Malkin s MAGIC point, which is is in defense of liberal Democrat FDR, stands.”
Interesting point in the context of recent discussions of “blame gaming” in the wake of Katrina. While FDR was one this countries grestest presidents I think you will find few liberals who will cut him slack for the internment. It is a shameful blight on his record. What to say then about Bush supporters who overlook blight after blight after blight. I’ll be big enough to suggest that like FDR, Bush has had to deal with unprecedented challenges. His responses to 9-11 and Katrina, however, have revealed his utter lack of leadership. And then there’s self-inflicted disasters of Abu Ghraib and the occupation of Iraq. Are there any conservatives here with the balls or independence of thought to judge Bush based on his overall record or to hold him accountable for anything?
Why is it, Oliver, the the only person that you insist upon calling by a name that she no longer uses is a strong Asian-American female?
And that you use the term “smack down” gleefully when criticizing her?
I’ll let the readers decide for themselves.
But if Glenn Reynolds, say, began referring to Kweisi Mfume as Frizzell Gray everytime he (hypothetically) criticized him, that would be perfectly okay with you?
I don’t want to speak for you Oliver, but my interpretation is that you used her Filipino name to underline the point that she is a race traitor?
Unlike the generations of Irish and Italian immigrants before who had their names anglicized against their will, Malkin deliberately chose to erase her ethnic identity and this is part and parcel of her willingness to play the fool for the rightwing and justify internment camps. After all, by Republican logic if one Asian says it’s okay it must be okay.
Is anyone interested in actually discussing the substance of the post instead of trying (and failing) to take potshots and “prove” that anytime liberals talk about race it proves they are racist?
“she is a race traitor?”
Pretty ugly stuff Sadie. It certainly doesn’t preclude a discussion about racism. Does it seem probematic to you , when and IF you think about it, that it would be impossible - IMPOSSIBLE, SADIE- for Malkin to erase her ethnic identity when she prominently features her picture at her site, often with her column, and she is on TV frequently - not wearing a mask. The other day you demande you wanted to know my religion to use in an arguemnt. You are the one calling for substance, right?
frame,
“Are there any conservatives here with the balls or independence of thought to judge Bush based on his overall record or to hold him accountable for anything? ”
Why yes and I judge him to be Ok. Not great , but OK.
Dugger, Is Malkin’s Argument so Strong that you Stoop to Mocking her Ethnicity
Race traitor is ugly? Explain, please.
And yes, I already admitted Malkin plays the fool for the Rightwing. She is that Asian who says it’s okay to put Asians in camps. That’s her job. She makes a lot of money at it. The name change communicates: “yes I’m a minority but I’m not one of those scary ones who might, like, ask you to try to pronounce a weird foreign-sounding name or something.” Else why did she change it?
D -
Thanks for the straight forward answer. Still, I’d hate to know what Bush would have to do for you to declare him “So-so.”
I don t want to speak for you Oliver, but my interpretation is that you used her Filipino name to underline the point that she is a race traitor?
So, only “enlightened” people like Oliver and your get to decide whether an Asian-American woman is sufficiently loyal to a vast and diverse portion of the planet’s population that encompasses many different languages and cultures.
Do you think that claiming that you’re liberal exempts you from such openly and patently racist behavior?
I already know that Oliver lacks the qualifications to pass judgement on what constitutes allegiance to an ethnic group.
What’s your claim to expertise on the subject?
Yours are some of the most hideous and ignorant comments I’ve read on the Internet.
Because she got married, you blithering idiot.
I swear I thought I’d never see the day when people who called themselves “Democrats” and “liberals” became disgusting racists.
Sadie, pardon me but you’ve got a real problem. Why are you so worried about people’s religion or ethnicity? May I be so bold to suggest just accepting them at face value. Argue for or against their points, but leave their race or religion out of it. Don’t you see how that looks? Just leave it alone. If I’m wrong, I’m wrong regardless of who I am. Vice versa if I’m right.
And, hell yeah, ‘race traitor’ is ugly. It emphasizes a complete racial identification of society. It suggests there are not free thinking individuals but rather mindless predictable racial stereotypes. It says there is only ONE way for a certain person to act or think because of their skin color. And Adie unless you know Malkin’s soul, you know nothing about her convictions or motivations. Could it just POSSIBLY be that some people don’t think like you are honest, decent people?
Dugger
Gee Sadie, why would she chage her last name to Malkin? Maybe because THAT’S HER HUSBAND’S LAST NAME! Unless you consider all women who take their husband’s name “gender traitors” than using her maiden name in this context is blatant race baiting.
Sadie,
I have no desire to go at you, but the more you write the behinder you get.
Didn’t call you a racist though I think your smear of Malkin is very ugly. And then you turned right around and said “So long as race is used a criteria for discrimination”. Does it occur to you even a little bit that that is precisely what you and Oliver are doing with Malkin? Precisely. Are you able to argue points or just criticize on the basis of skin color and religion?
Oliver
“Malkin is probably ashamed of her race”
Yes, indeed. That, then, would be why she puts her picture on her web site.
Dugger, Sheesh
Malkin is probably ashamed of her race (which is why she works for a movement that is anti-immigrant) but I note her maiden name simply because she made an issue of Teresa Heinz Kerry using a hyphenate name.
Okay all you two have done is prove what I said to begin with. Anytime a liberal brings up the word “race” conservatives call them “racist.”
It’s like you have no idea that words have meanings beyond your own definitions. Like there is no such thing as real racism in your world. Which I guess, according to your view there isn’t. The only people being oppressed in your world are white men, right?
No “race traitor” is not ugly and I’ll tell you why. Because people are not individuals only they are members of communities. Our experience in this world is shaped by the communities we are part of, and those we are excluded from. So long as race is used a criteria for discrimination, as part of the reason why some people are treated differently than others, we have to talk about it and keep talking about it. Name calling is not going to shut us up.
And religion, the reason that matters is because it’s also part of who we are, whether you have one or not. If you want to have an honest conversation with anyone, you have to be honest about who you are and where you’re coming from, you can’t just hide behind some mask of supposed uniformity. Because then you really are just acting out mindless predictable stereotypes.
Wow, Oliver, you just keep digging the hole you’re in even deeper. Let’s see, first of all you made this leap: Because one is against illegal immigration, you know, in favor of the law of the land, they’re ashamed of their race.
You might have to paint a few more strokes on that painting, Oliver, ’cause I’m just not seeing the complete picture.
And after you’ve explained that, how does it work if a white person is against illegal immigration. Are they ashamed of their race too?
If you’re saying that it works differently for people of different ethnic extraction, isn’t that a little…racist?
You’re not very convincing when you dissemble. If that were really the reason, you would have referred to “Michelle Malagang Malkin.”
And do you expect us to believe that by using Malkin’s very ethnic-sounding maiden name in 2005, you’re still commenting on something that probably happened over a year ago?
Give it up, Oliver. You’ve been owned on this issue, not only by me. You really ought to stop it. It’s disgraceful
No problem, tuco. The reference to religion was in response to something Dugger said.
And somehow I find it very hard to believe Oliver has a problem with strong women of any race, given this open admiration for Leila Ali!
Cliff Notes Version: It’s wrong to discriminate against someone for who they are. It is not wrong to criticize them for what they do.
I hope that helps?
Well now no one ever said he didn’t have a problem with Malkin. But you make it sound as if he is somehow threatened by her strength, instead of repulsed by her ideology and hucksterism.
Again it’s that being versus doing thing. And he already pointed out the name check was a reference to her Theresa Heinz-Kerry dig — something she did.
What words? What definitions? We’re talking about Oliver’s conscious decision to refer to a person’s maiden name only in the case of one strong Asian-American woman that he at least doesn’t like (or maybe worse).
You guess wrong.
You really ought to turn your very active imagination into a paying career. Like writing fiction.
Are you even aware that first you wrote:
Followed in the same paragraph by:
See a contradiction here? Of course you don’t.
Can you please provide the Cliff’s Notes version of that, because I have no idea what it has to do with this conversation.
Smear? what smear? Are we even speaking the same language? Well, when in doubt, whip out the dictionary, right?
“Smear: an unsubstaniated charge.” Is Malkin Asian? yes. Has she made a lot of money for herself by being willing to say there was nothing wrong with the internment of Asians? yes. Where is the smear? Are any of these facts even in question?
And how on earth am I discriminating against Malkin? I never turned her down when she applied for a job with me. I never refused to rent her a house. I never made her pay a higher interest rate to get a bank loan than I did for a white person.
If you wingnuts spent half as much effort fighting real racism instead of tusing the word to smear (and I mean that in the actual, dictionary sense of the word) your opponents, the world would be a much better place.
Oh, Oliver definitely has a very big problem with Michelle Malkin. That problem consumes him at times. That’s not hard to find.
Oliver’s name-checking of Malkin’s maiden name is not a criticism of what she does. But if you believe that it is, and you’re right, then I’d definitely say doing so is racist.
Oh give me a break. Right wing troll acuses me of being racist towards asian women? Malkin is avowedly anti-immigrant, illegal or legal makes no difference to her as long as the checks from the Heritage Foundation clear. She slammed Teresa Heinz Kerry for “changing her name”, yet Magalang did the same exact thing. Like most cons, she’s a hypocrite.
>>And Adie unless you know Malkin s soul,
I simply can not wrap my noodle around the whole idea of caring enough about Michelle Malkin to defend her. You don’t need to be a psychiatrist to notice that there is something seriously wrong with that woman.
How about selling your soul? Just keep those speech and appearance fees coming and she’ll keep batting those crazy eyes around.
JK
Sadie,
The smear was and remains the ugly “race traitor” remark. Do yourself a favor and retract it. That kind of racially tinged crap went out some time ago. Disagree with her all you want or me, but leave her and my race and religion out of it. And Sadie, neither you nor Oliver has addressed the point that if Malkin is ashamed of her race, as it was put, why does she prominently display her picture on her site.
JK
So racially based criticism of Malkin is all Ok in your book - because you don’t like Malkin. Because you judge from a thousand miles away and with no credentials that she is sick (I guess its just coincidental that she disagrees with you politically).
Dugger
>>So racially based criticism of Malkin is all Ok in your book
She a public figure. It goes with the territory. Some pubic figures like to keep a relatively low profile, she obviously does not. If you write a controversial “book” on race, expect some controversy on race.
IMO…95% of the criticisms Malin has recieved are legitimate. I would not call her a race traitor, however.
I don’t think her book approaches anything close to a scholarly work, and I don’t think she adds anything of serious note to discussion of pubic policy and immigration issues in this country.
If you want to continue to feed your obvious infatuation with the woman by defending her, then whatever floats your boat.
Personally, I don’t spend much time defending all of the crazy things people like Al Sharpton say. But that’s just me.
JK
O-Dub : Heaven for freaking bid you actually put something in context … so, here goes. Michelle Malkin criticized Tereza Heinz for changing her name to Tereza Heinz-Kerry for the election, not for having a hypenated name, but you knew that. One changed her name for a political election, and one changed her name because she got married. Your inability to see the difference in this completely explains how you think that the Redskins have an icecube’s chance in hell of making it to the Super Bowl.
Sadie - It is nice to know that you have now become the arbiter of what constitutes being a racist, or a race traitor. That must make it a lot easier to live in your world.
“the smear was and remains the ugly race traitor remark.”
Okay let me try again because you still don’t get it. I can’t tell if you are a clever man pretending to be dense, or a dense man pretending to be clever, but it’s starting to look more and more like the latter.
Race traitor. The operative word here is traitor — one who betrays. Betrayal being something that you do. Remember the little being versus doing distinction?
A race traitor is someone who takes advantage of his or her race to secure a position of influence, from which he or she either actively promotes, or provides political cover for those who promote, an agenda which harms other people of their race.
So let’s go through it again: Is Malkin Asian? yes. Does she promote policies harmful to Asians? yes — the internment of Japanese Americans was very harmful to them. There is no falsehood here, therefore by definition there is no smear.
Face it, you righties just love that little tingle it gives you in the base of your spine to call a liberal “racist.” You never try to figure out if it makes sense or not, and frankly, it makes you look ignorant.
And no JD, there’s nothing special about me except I do have common sense, which is apparently a rare substance in Wingnuttia since you seem never to have encountered it before.
One might think that your alleged “common sense” would allow you to get your mind around the concept that minorities do not necessarily have to all think, act, or even vote the same way. Heck, they might even be allowed to exert a little free will, think for themselves, formulate their own opinions, without having to be labeled a race traitor.
I suppose that since she is Asian, actually Phillipina, that she should share common beliefs with all Asians, Japanese Americans, Chinese Americans, Vietnamese Americans, Korean Americans, et al. Is it not possible that maybe different people in this enormous class of people have differing views on different topics?
Of course minorities can think and act anyway they want. They just can’t expect to act like assholes and not have anyone call them on it, anymore than anyone else can.
I think I understand what’s going on. I think maybe you believe “racism” and “race blind” are opposites. Is that it? So when you call me racist what you are really saying is that I am not being race blind?
I never said the race word is inoperative. Where do you get this stuff?
Race is the word that qualifies traitor. In English we call it an adjective. What kind of hat? A blue hat. What kind of traitor? A race traitor.
See how it works?
No, you just keep digging yourself in deeper. Anytime a liberal uses the word “race” conservatives shriek “racist!” and consider that the end of the conversation. Well it isn’t.
We are going to talk about race in this country and keep on talking about it until it isn’t a problem anymore. This will probably take a long time. We don’t need permission from delicate conservatives to do so.
JK,
“If you want to continue to feed your obvious infatuation with the woman by defending her, then whatever floats your boat.’
Wow. Can’t argue with that lucid, intellectual dart.
Sadie,
Sometimes its just too easy.
“Race traitor. The operative word here is traitor one who betrays.”
If the “race” word is inoperative, Sadie, why have you repeatedly used it?? After all, you say of yourself, “I do have common sense, ”
Dugger
You’re a real intelectual, eh, SadieB?
Malkin is Filipino, not “Asian”. Japenese Americans are Japanese Americans, not “Asians.” Unless you think they’re all alike.
Malkin never promoted policies harmful to Japanese Americans, as there is no plan to inter Japanese Americans any time soon — is there?
She is presenting her version of history. Her interpretation. She is advocating nothing.
Finally, the earliest book I ever read on the subject was entitled “America’s Concentration Camps” (pretty clear what the point of view was, right?), and even that author conceded that right or wrong, Governor Earl Warren thought the interment was necessary.
Roosevelt’s cronies were credited with saying, when asked why German Americans weren’t interred, “Germans vote Democratic.”
That’s history, not racism — treacherous, or otherwise.
That’s history and racism, do you think they are exclusive? Earl Warren may have thought he was right, but he was wrong. There is such a thing as objective reality, and it matters.
Malkin is an apologist for this policy. She argues that it was justified. That is promotion. It’s people like her who lay the groundwork for these things to happen again, and they can. Do you honestly think human nature is fundamentally different now than it was 60 years ago?
The Japanese-American internment was a permanent black mark on our nation’s history and on Roosevelt’s reputation. He did it under pressure from conservatives. That, and refusing to sign anti-lynching legislation. Politics being what they are, sometimes you have to go along to get along, but it is still shameful. He was ashamed of these actions until the day he died.
SadieB: You have no such knowledge. The Japanese Americans were interred as of the day FDR died. When did he express any regret? Why didn’t he just order them freed?
And don’t tell me about objective reality — liberals don’t even believe in it.
Ms. Malkin argues that the policy was justified based on the intelligence at the time, not because she personally dislikes Japanese or Japanese Americans. If you have any evidence that she dislikes Japanese Americans, now would be a good time for people like you and Oliver to present it, or stop making such baseless charges.
I honestly think that human nature is now different than it was 6,000 years ago, when the earliest “civilizations” spent such an inordinate amount of time hacking each other to pieces. So what does that with the price of tea in China?
The issue originally was someone’s contention that one piece of paper suddenly makes Ms. Malkin a liar. Not mistaken, mind you, but a liar.
The real issue is that Oliver really hates Ms.Malkin. I don’t know why, but I know he does. I also know she believes what she writes about, and is not race conscious. That’s what I do know.
I read about FDR’s regret in a biography. Can’t remember now which one, sorry.
“the policy was justified based on the intelligence at the time, not because she personally dislikes Japanese or Japanese Americans”
Okay here’s the crux. It doesn’t matter how she feels. Love the Japanese, hate ‘em, it doesn’t matter. It’s the internment that matters, and the fact that she claims it was the right thing to do. It’s the things we do that matter.
It’s no mystery why Oliver hates Malkin, it’s the same reason every sane person who has not been possessed by a Republican body-snatchin’ alien hates her — because she’s terrible! She is a terrible person!
The reason I asked you about human nature was because you seem to think this kind of stuff, making excuses for internment camps and such, is just harmless fun among friends. My point was that it isn’t, because we are just as capable of barbarism as the Nazis were, and your 6,000 year old people. We have to be vigilant about ourselves.
Sadie and Frank,
Actually, perhaps you are not aware that Germans (”By the end of the war, 11,000 persons of German ancestry, including many American-born children, were interned”) and Italians were interned. That would seem to deflate the the racial angle somewhat, nicht wahr?
Dugger
Sadie,
So when you said:
Race traitor. The operative word here is traitor one who betrays.
You really meant:
“the operative wordS here are ‘race’ and ‘traitor’ “?
I think you are winning your first debate here - the one with yourself.
Dugger
Nice work, Dugger. No, I didn’t know about the Germans. Doesn’t change my argument, though. If a Kraut-American were to come along saying that was hunky dory it would be just as wrong as Malkin saying what she says.
“Traitor” is the noun, “race” is the adjective. The general grammatical convention is that the noun is more important, that’s why I called it “operative.” Remember in junior high when you used to diagram sentences, how the noun went on the line and the modifiers went below? Or maybe kids don’t do that anymore, maybe I am showing my age.
Frank, help me out here. These young kids don’t know their grammar.
Okay, let me try one more thing to help you get this. Imagine in Nazi Germany there are some Jews who work for the Nazis, giving them information on which families in their town are Jewish. Maybe they even help draw up list of who should go first. What would you call those people?
SadieB: This is not about the definition of the term “race traitor” — a stupid term, made even stupider, by its use here.
It’s about whether or not Ms. Malkin has some sort of responsibility to keep what she perceives as history a secret because she is Asian, and the people she is writing about were of Asian descent. It’s a tenuous connection to begin with, but let’s suppose we fall back on “She’s Asian, and so are they.”
I have two questions: 1) Was her investigation valid? Did she indeed collect sufficient information to make a case that some Japanese Americans may have been dangeous enough to inter, even if wholesale interment was excessive?
2) If she didn’t do that, what did she do? Did she deliberately make a case for interment, when it was not justified?
If she didn’t do 1), and she did do 2), then: Why?
That’s why I think “race traitor” is such a stupid term. Because I’m not sure how you “become” one. SadieB, your example of the Jews in Germany isn’t valid, either, because you’ve said nothing of their motives.
Keeping a secret? What in the world are you talking about? What secret? Is she, like, some kind of spy or something? I thought she was just a high-powered wingnut, I didn’t know she had a deep dark secret. The things you know are really amazing to me.
You can’t grasp the concept of race traitorship, fine, just leave it at that. The rest of the world does, and we are perfectly capable of carrying on a conversation without you.
Let me try to explain simple English to you:
In this sentence
It s about whether or not Ms. Malkin has some sort of responsibility to keep what she perceives as history a secret because she is Asian, and the people she is writing about were of Asian descent.
the words in bold represent the secret you think she should keep. Now, we can take off the clown hat and oversized shoes.
I would say that your use of a term like “race traitorship” indicates that you don’t know what it means, either.
As this thread winds down, I note no one rebutted the fact that Muller passed over the fact that the memo referred to the fact that “most” were not spies. Malkin actually has the high ground in defending liberal Democrat FDR.
Dugger