KATRINA RELIEF PLAN FOR SENATE ACTION THIS WEEK
Although the Congress last week appropriated $10.5 billion for the Federal Emergency Management Agency and the Defense Department, it is clear much more will be needed given the enormity of this disaster. While government authorities and others assess the scope of the problem and decide how much additional funding will be needed to address specific problems, there are a number of legislative items the Senate can and should promptly approve that can help Katrina s victims. After the Senate has completed action on this emergency legislation, we hope the Senate will quickly provide significant new funding, and consider other substantive proposals that could help address short- and medium-term needs. These proposals must be followed by a much broader, long-term effort to rebuild and rehabilitate the Gulf Coast region and substantially improve efforts to prevent, mitigate and respond to future disasters.
The following are just some examples of proposals that Senate Democrats believe deserve immediate Senate action this week:
Ensuring health care for all displaced victims
* Immediate access to Medicaid for displaced victims.
* No need to prove residency or assets
* No copayments
* No penalties for failing to sign up for Medicare Part B in time.
To ensure access to medical care, we should ensure immediate access to Medicaid for displaced victims. Paperwork requirements should be streamlined and asset requirements waived to ensure that victims, many of whom have no legal documents in their possession, can enroll in the program with little red tape. Residency requirements for participation should not apply to these victims to allow them to obtain health care services around the country. In addition, copayments should be waived for these people as they struggle to meet other needs as well. The Federal government should bear the full cost of these changes, and ensure that no affected state suffers a reduction in Federal Medicaid funding (their match rate ) for other populations. This proposal is based on a similar successful initiative after the September 11 disaster.
We also should provide compensation to health care providers who provide a disproportionate share of the care for these victims.
Displaced victims should not be penalized for late enrollment in Medicare Part B because they have become newly-eligible or have lost coverage from another plan during this time. Similarly, everyone from the affected states should have an additional year to enroll in the new Medicare drug benefit and its low income subsidies. The automatic transition of dual eligible beneficiaries from Medicaid to Medicare drug coverage should be delayed in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama, with the Federal government bearing the full cost of those people continuing Medicaid drug coverage.
Getting victims housing
* Emergency housing vouchers for displaced victims
* Expedited application procedures with no red tape.
* No tenant contributions until they find work.
* Tax incentives for private families to take in victims.
* Identify federal facilities that can house victims.
* Relief for homeowners facing threat of foreclosure
FEMA has said that up to 1 million people may need housing assistance. The Senate therefore should immediately authorize the Department of Housing and Urban Development to create and distribute temporary emergency housing vouchers to victims, without many of the restrictions that apply under the existing Section 8 low-income voucher program. For example, victims should not have to document their income levels, and tenant contributions should be waived until they find work. HUD also should be authorized to increase existing limits on allowable rents given the likelihood that rents in Gulf Coast areas will increase substantially for the foreseeable future. HUD needs to take over primary responsibility for distributing vouchers since many of the region s local housing authorities are not functioning at full capacity, if at all.
Given the scarcity of rental housing, we will need to rely on private individuals and families to provide free room and board to victims. To encourage this, we should immediately approve a tax subsidy for those who provide such assistance to Katrina s victims.
To help identify locations to house victims, the Administration should be required, within 10 days, to release an inventory of federal civilian and defense facilities that can be used to provide emergency housing, or as locations for the construction or deployment of temporary housing units.
We should increase aid to owners of damaged homes by waiving current law caps on home repair assistance (now $5200) and home replacement assistance (now $10,200). In addition, we should waive a requirement that individuals leave their home to qualify for home repair assistance, a rule that threatens to exacerbate an already massive demand for shelter in the region.
We should reestablish the Temporary Mortgage and Rental Program, which has been used in the past, including after the September 11 disaster, to provide assistance to homeowners and renters facing financial hardship. This could be important for many victims who otherwise could lose their homes through foreclosure.
Getting victims to family members and friends
Many of Katrina s victims have little or no access to transportation. Although FEMA has legal authority to address this, the agency seems overwhelmed and has proven unable on its own to meet the compelling needs of countless numbers of stranded victims. We therefore need to make this a White House priority and direct the President to lead a broad effort to quickly ensure that displaced victims can get to family, friends and others who can provide them with room and board.
Getting students into school
Many of Katrina s victims are children who need to enroll in a new school. To encourage schools to accept these victims, and alleviate some of the resulting burdens, we should provide funding to school districts that accept displaced children. This funding could be used to hire additional teachers, teachers aides, or counselors, or to provide temporary expansions of classrooms. A similar program should be provided for institutions of higher education that admit displaced students.
Bringing victims families together and placing them with other families
The government should establish a toll free 800 number and web site through which victims could access a national victim database and information about available assistance. Displaced individuals could register and provide contact information, so that separated family members and friends could find each other. The database also would allow volunteers to sign up if they are willing to provide free shelter to victims.
Getting victims cash to meet other basic needs
To ensure that victims can get cash for their basic needs, we should strengthen and expand the Disaster Unemployment Insurance Program and automatically extend any expiring UI benefits that victims are receiving. We also should give the President authority to increase the $26,200 statutory cap on cash assistance through the Individuals and Households Program, and should waive the 25 percent matching requirement for States in the Gulf region. In addition, victims should be allowed to withdraw funds from individual retirement accounts (IRA s) penalty-free, with extra contributions permitted later.
Providing financial relief to victims and National Guard
Katrina s victims, and National Guard involved in disaster operations, should not be obligated to make payments to the Federal government in the immediate aftermath of the disaster. There should be a short term moratorium on obligations such as:
n Student loans
n Individual and corporate income taxes
n Small business loans
In addition, disaster victims filing for bankruptcy should be treated differently under the bankruptcy code in recognition of their particular hardship.
Ensuring victims have access to food
We should ensure that the many victims of Katrina who are struggling to obtain food have access to food stamps through a streamlined application process. States should be provided relief from the additional costs associated with administering the food stamp program for victims.
Restoring order
We should provide law enforcement funding where needed to help protect innocent citizens from crime and to ensure that there are places in which to imprison dangerous criminals. In addition, we should authorize federal courts to convene outside of their ordinary location in the event of an emergency, such as the massive flooding caused by Hurricane Katrina.
Helping victims get jobs
Private employers should be given an incentive to hire displaced victims by temporarily qualifying them for the Work Opportunity Tax Credit, which can reduce an employer s tax liability by up to $2400 per qualified new worker. In addition, the Federal government should establish a temporary preference for hiring displaced victims who are qualified for jobs.
Moreover, many displaced workers now lack the documents they need to secure employment under Federal law, such as passports and birth certificates. This law should be relaxed temporarily so that victims can legally obtain work without such documents, so long as they can provide a valid Social Security number.
Supporting the National Guard
We should ensure that Guard units serving in the Gulf Coast effort be considered to have been mobilized under Title 32 (they are currently mobilized through the states). This would qualify them for federal benefits and ensure that their service counts as active duty for the purposes of retirement, health care, and other benefits. It also would make them eligible for the Family Separation Allowance if separated from their families for more than 30 days, and could provide relief from creditors and foreclosures.
Requiring accountability
We should require the President to submit regular reports to the Congress on the status of recovery efforts, the number of victims who remain without decent housing, jobs, etc., and any additional resources or action needed to address the crisis.
September 5, 2005
The Honorable William H. Frist
Majority Leader
United States Senate
Washington, DC
Dear Mr. Leader:
Hurricane Katrina has left a trail of death and destruction along the Gulf Coast. Hundreds of thousands of Americans are coming to grips with the loss of loved ones, displaced lives and the destruction of their homes. For days, Americans have watched scenes of disaster victims struggling to survive without food, water and hope.
Across this country, American citizens are mobilizing as part of a massive effort to help speed the relief and recovery from this disaster. We applaud your action on September 1st that allowed the Senate to approve $10.5 billion of emergency assistance for the Gulf region, but the Federal government s role in this recovery effort is far from finished.
On behalf of the Senate Democratic caucus, we hope that the Senate s schedule during the week of September 6 will be adjusted appropriately to allow the Senate to focus on the work this body should be doing to address the needs of the communities devastated by Hurricane Katrina. Certainly the Senate cannot ignore other urgent legislative matters; however, our caucus strongly believes it would be a serious mistake to divert the Senate s attention away from the current emergency at this time.
In particular, the Democratic caucus believes it would be inappropriate to consider repeal of the estate tax immediately upon our return to legislative business. While Senate Democrats hold a wide range of views on estate tax reform, there is broad agreement that the disaster in the Gulf region requires our full attention and immediate action.
We believe that it would send the wrong message to the American people for the Senate s first item of business upon returning from recess to be the repeal of the estate tax. It would be insensitive to focus the Senate s attention on those with so much when so many of our citizens have lost everything. The crisis in the Gulf Region is the top concern of the American people and it should be the top priority of the United States Senate.
There are a number of legislative actions that the Senate can and should take to provide continued relief and assistance to the victims of Hurricane Katrina and to all Americans who are now feeling its effects. For example, the Senate could take action this week on legislation that would provide hurricane victims with immediate access to health care, housing, food and other basic necessities, and transportation out of the disaster area.
We urge you to set aside the estate tax debate and take up these solutions in our first days back. The Senate not only has the power to do so, we have a moral obligation to the victims, their families, and all Americans.
Harry Reid
Max Baucus
Rawk.
Perfectly appropriate and perfectly played.
I like this plan very much. I hope the Senate acts on it.
Everyone should send an email of support to Sen Reid as he attempts to focus Washington on THE MOST IMPORTANT THING; relief to Katrina victims.
It does not matter if you are not a constituent. He can’t hang out there on his own for long.
As usual, the “Plan” leaves out the part about who does all these things, who pays their salaries, and fills in the gaps left by subsidies, and the like. This is something all Congressional pland do, so I can’t fault the Democrats for acting true to form.
However, I do object to giving victims of the disaster more rights and privileges than lower economic classed neighbors. That’s like tossing a paying customer off an ocean liner to help a castaway found floating in the ocean.
The hurricane victims should be entitled to the same benefits as any person with low or no income.
And, I’m certainly in favor of making it quick
Finally, get the Red Cross out of there!
They’re corrupt and over bureauacritized — Do’t give them your money!
I gave Catholic Charities $100 today — took about 3 minutes
Frank, so let’s see the Republican’s super-ultra-detailed plan then since they are so much better.
Frank D illustrates his serial cluelessness once more.
Plans at this level never go into exacting detail. When the USAF has a requirement for a new bomber–the first document created will be a one- or two-pager outlining the key features and capabilities this new bomber will have to meet requirements.
Catholic Charities is a decent charity; unfortunately, about 25% off the top will go hierarchical management reserves, another 20-25% will wind up paying for church infrastructure, 10-15% will go to mission (proselytzing efforts) and then some portion of what remains will go the victims of Katrina.
rhys, thats easy. The republican plan is for these new poor people to ‘go fuck themselves’ aka ‘ownership society.’
That’s my error:
it’s here
http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/news/katrina.cfm
Rhys, I said the plan was fine with one real drawback… So sue me.
By the way, there is hardly anything else to do but what they have suggested.
However, I gather you don’t know the significance of giving out benefits without ID and income documents.
And, worse, giving out Section 8 certificates in (what may be in some cases) tight real estate markets could be troublesome.
But attacking me is so much more fun than thinking.
Calculating the overhead of implementing the plan? Who cares?
We can pay for it later… And blame Bush for the deficit, while we’re at it!
Woo woo!
JadeGold: If arrogance was terminal you would have died years ago. And, by the way, you need some serious tutoring in reading comprehension:
Number two, idiot, if you went to the link, which you obviously didn’t, you would see that there is a special fund Hurricane Katrin victims. Unlike the Red Cross, it is not going into general fund, to be used later.
Now go attack another poster. You sicken me.
JadeGold, I’ll save you the trouble of running to the link to see if I’m wrong:
From the http://www.catholiccharitiesusa.org/news/katrina.cfmCatholic Charities link:
First of all, I didn’t attack the Democrats at all.
Second, I never said I had a plan, but if I did, I would have noticed that
1) A better provision than “Just forget about it” should be applied to giving out what is called in the public assistance community (that’s givers and receivers) as the ‘Gold Card”: unlimited, unrestricted Medicaid. You may not know why that matters, but Democratic Congressmen and Senators are supposed to.
2) Giving away undocumented Section 8 vouchers in metropolitan areas (where many displaced persons from the Gulf area have gone) could put quite the squeeze on the locals in need of cheap housing. It might also tip the balance in the decison to stay rather than returning home, producing quite a demographic shift — possibly negative, but definitely significant. You might not have thought about it, but Democratic Senators and Congressmen should have.
The solution?
I don’t know — but a) I’m not paid to know, and b) I bet you I would find out in a real quick hurry if it were my job to know. The Democrats apparently didn’t.
As for the overhead of implementing this particular plan — when you include six month and one year follow ups to see where everyone has landed after the “dust settles” — you can expect the cost will be staggering. When the locals get their hands this money, they’re going to have a ball. New buildings, new office supplies and equipment, raises, increased numbers of personnel to “lower the unexpectedly high caseload”, PD and FD hires, probably even Public Works hires…
Roll out the pork barrels, guys, Uncle Sam is coming to town with bottomless bags of money!
But I’m not thinking, I’m just attacking the Democrats.
By the way, I thought of that as I typed, and I’m not even a Congressional Staff member.
We are spending, what is it now, a half billion on the Iraq War every week? Somebody who is better than me with numbers feel free to correct me here.
Somehow I don’t see how spending a little cash on Americans for a change should be a problem. And if somebody wants to rip the government off for free rent in a Section 8 house, my God are you really going to begrudge them? Have you ever set foot in a Section 8 house? It’s like you are worried about somebody stealing government cheese — if they’re that desperate let them have it!
But the beauty part of this is that the Republicans won’t do it. They can’t. Reid knows this. Frist knows this. The powers-that-be in the Republican Party will never let them pass any real relief for the people of New Orleans. But finally the Dems are standing up for the people, like they should have been doing all along, instead of giving cover to the Republicans by saying “me too” to every thing they say. Let’s hope it becomes a habit.
“Rhys, I said the plan was fine with one real drawback So sue me.”
Great. Then I assume that you’ll be encourgaging the Republicans to adopt this plan post-haste, fix the niggly flaws, and get on with helping people?
I was merely pointing out that compared to the Democrats quickly thought out plan, the Republicans are yet to suggest anything of substance. Unless Hastert’s bulldoze New Orleans and be done with it proprosal is your plan?
“However, I gather you don’t know the significance of giving out benefits without ID and income documents.”
Yeah, the upper middle class and the rich will rort the system by pretending to be affected when they weren’t. I’m just waiting for Trent Lott to apply for Federal assistance to replace his lost mansion – you know he will.
The poor and lower middle class who are soon to be poor, on the other hand, probably don’t have those documents to hand, or the money necessary to hire a lawyer to find the loopholes for them.
I assume that you have a solution to this dilemma, since you raise it? We’re all ears. I’m sure the Democrats will happily add your proprosal to the list if it makes sense.
“But attacking me is so much more fun than thinking.”
And attacking the Democrats for actually having the outline of a plan, while the Republicans have nothing at all, is “thinking” on your part, right?
Volvo! Now who’s jumping to conclusions? No I don’t own one and I hope never do.
As for what I know about Section 8 housing, well there was lots of it in my brother-in-law’s neighborhood in a little place called “New Orleans.” Maybe you’ve heard of it? From what I could tell Section 8 is basically a middle-class giveaway, these people buy houses in the slums and collect rent on them directly from the government, and they hire “property managers,” so they get all the benefits of being slumlords (steady cashflow, no need for frivolities like maintenance) without even having to actually talk to or deal with poor people in person. And there’s no limit to how many you can own — some people make six figure incomes off Section 8. I don’t know the whole history of it, when it was implemented and all, but the whole thing smelled very Republican to me. As in, “well we’ll give the poor folks a place to live but only so long as there’s a profit in it for some middle-class dude.”
Nice try trying to snag the moral high ground, though I don’t think it will wash. If what you are concerned about is that free vouchers for the hurricane survivors will displace other poor people, whether for housing or health care, well, what is wrong with providing more low income housing and affordable healthcare for everyone? You can’t have it both ways. Either you believe scarcity is desirable, like a good free market Republican, or you believe it isn’t, like a bleeding heart liberal, but either way you have to acknowledge scarcity is a policy decision. It’s a matter of priorities.
SadieB: You are such an insensitive jerk… Did you ever think about how I know about section 8 Housing?
I’ve lived in Section 8 Housing for 15 years… I know something about it. What do you know about it?
You think the problem is that some people might skip a few months’ rent? That’s nothing compared to the real problems that giving away thousands of free certificates / vouchers might pose. Two of the problems are stated above.
I’ll put it in terms you can understand. Let’s say you want to buy a used Volvo — that’s your kind of car, right?
But, everywhere you go the used Volvos are gone, bought up by people from out of town who who have special coupons for used Volvos. So what are you going to do? you have to buy a more expensive Volvo. Get it, now?
As for Medicaid: Have you have ever had a medicaid card? Ever been to a clinic full of Medicaid clients? Well, if you ever have, add about 25% or 50% to the population Why? Because people with unlimited Medicaid cards start going to Doctors – man, do they go to doctors!
If you told the hurricane victims that they have three months of unlimited Medicaid to take care of any ailments related to the Hurricane, and three months to get ID and income documentation (which can be done from scratch — I know lots of people who have done it faster) they’ll be fine, and they won’t swamp the system.
Of course, if they’re eligible, otherwise, then they’re eligible.
Something similar could be done for Section 8.
You see, I’m not just penurious and uncaring.
rightisright, you are describing a fraction of the total tenant population. And there is such a thing as *insurance* to cover such damage. The problem is minimal, and there is already a solution for it. But by raising the problem you are demonstrating only that you are an inhuman scumbag who tars an entire class of people for the actions of a few. There’s a word for people like you: racist.
Sadie, I know a bit about Section 8 housing.
It is truly hard to keep some of the units “liveable” when the tenants rip out all the copper plumbing to feed their crack habits then shit in the toilets that now have no water until they are overflowing with rancid feces and urine. Then they move on to the garbage cans or spackle buckets. When those are full, they just shit and piss on the carpet.
Want some pictures?
Actually, Atrios and Froomkin point out that Barbara’s full quote was:
“What I’m hearing which is sort of scary is that they all want to stay in Texas. Everybody is so overhwlemed by the hospitality. And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (chuckle)–this is working very well for them.”
She considers it *scary* that all those poor black people now want to stay in Texas. The mind boggles.
Wow, discusson of a plan to take care of victims of this horrifying disaster deteriorates to a prediction on how these very same victims (among others, I presume) will cheat the system and piss on the carpets.
I guess you’re taking from Barbara “a beautiful mind” Bush:
Frank, does this mean that these Catholic charities you mention are taking names and insisting on documents to help victims? How are they separating the wheat from the chaff?
Oh, and this outrage against pork, does it extend to $454 million bridges in Alaska?
Just asking.
Dude, don’t give your money to Jesus, he’s been dead for like 2000 years. I heard some old pedos are using his identity to con gulible folks.
I consider a racist to be anyone who tars a class of people based on the actions of a few in that class. The “poor” is a class of people. If there is a more appropriate color-neutral term for your bigotry than “racism”, I will be happy to use it to describe your inhuman attitude. Please enlighten us rightisright – just exactly what kind of bigot are you?
Hi rhys!!
Thanks for the heads up about insurance. I’ll have my evil tax attorneys and multiple CPAs look into this “insurance” you speak of.
By the way, the particular apartment I was describing was inhabited by honkies.
Sheesh.
That’s corruption in action.
Way to spin it, SadieB. “Houses in the slums”? Where do you live? Nebraska? Section 8 is no “middle class giveaway,” at least where I live.
Whether it is or not is of no concern to potential tenants. You are missing the point. Section 8 rents have a cap on them. If the cap on 2 bedroom apartments, for example is $1000, then when that price range of apartments is gone, they are gone — that is, there is no more “low income housing for everyone”.
Obviously (to me, I guess, but not you) increasing the population receiving health care at any given location is going to produce problems for all of of he recipients.
It’s not a matter of scarcity — don’t be so obtuse. It’s a matter of allocation. We al think in terms of communities — ‘them’ and ‘us’. It’s very discomfiting to people for them to know that “we” are suffering at the expense of “them”, no matter who ‘we’ are, and no matter who ‘they’ are. No matter what Oliver says, race is of no import in that paradigm.
Inform a black community that there will soon be a shortage of low – priced apartments, and difficulties receiving medical care, because of an influx of blacks, and they will be just as outraged as any other community facing an influx of any other race. Community trumps race, at least where I live.
Mouse, I’m not the PR man for Catholic Charities — ask them your question.
As to the $454 million bridge in Alaska, what I do know about it, which is very little, is that people on “both sides of the aisle”, are upset by this project. Why this , as opposed to so many others, I don’t know. What makes it different from the myriad buildings in West Virginia named after Sen. “Sheets” Byrd?
People. not property!
Did you know that the communities served will be billed for those services? Well, they will…
Did you know that the any time the Red Cross feels like it, they withhold monies to the hurricane victims, and set it aside for other emergencies down the road, as they see fit?
That’s,/i> corruption in action!
Anything to disagree with me, eh, Quaker?
From their site:
Funds Received to Date The Red Cross estimates that, as of Sept. 4, 2005, it has received $352 million in gifts and pledges for the hurricane relief effort.
Watch and see what happens when they’re ready to leave town and pull up stakes…
Not actually a Katrina relief plan. How bout this headline: Democrats use Katrina disaster to further political and ideological agenda.
Dugger, has never been sick at sea (what never?)
One problem with Catholic Charities….they’re Catholic. Hypocrisy, thy name is the Roman Catholic Church.
Okay, so they’re not slums. I guess the proper term now is “neighborhoods in transition.” That’s what they called my brother-in-law’s neighborhood in New Orleans. He lived on Annunciation, two blocks off Napoleon, want to try to call my bluff again? Have you not learned anything?
But you are dancing around the real issue here. It’s the classic economic question of guns and butter. Maybe you have heard of this one? There’s only so much money to go around, you can spend it on guns (defense, etc) or you can spend it on butter (social programs). Any money spent on one is thereby unavailable to be spent on the other. Are you with me so far?
The reason the clinics have long lines, the reason people cannot get decent housing, is because we live under a government that buys about 10 guns for every stick of butter, and has been doing so for years. So which side are you on? Do you believe, with the rest of the Republican Party, that these priorities are the right ones, and it’s just tough luck that people suffer? Or do you believe, as the Progressives do (I wish I could say Democrats but that would be too optimistic) that maybe the government ought to buy some butter once in a while?
I believe the Bible has a few choice words on the fate of fence-sitters, I can look them up for you if you wish.
Don’t worry, Frank.
I chipped in a little extra to cover your share.
Sadie, Sadie,
“The reason the clinics have long lines, the reason people cannot get decent housing, is because we live under a government that buys about 10 guns for every stick of butter, and has been doing so for years. So which side are you on?”
Why doesn’t the governing entity of New Orleans do what you say. Do they hate poor people? Blacks?
Dr. Dugger’s easy answer: a massive city tax increase for the city of New Orleans . Do it now before the next hurricane. Raise taxes Mr Mayor! Your people need better housing, shorter clinic lines, sticks of butter. How can you afford not to raise taxes? And if you need help. may I suggest the governor and the Lt. Governor, especially. Mitch Landriue . I’m sure doesn’t hate poor people. He’ll pony up the bucks (right after bailing out his violent sister). After all, ALL OF THESE OFFICIALS ARE DEMOCRATS AND THEY DO NOT HATE THE POOR. Let me know how it turns out. In my mind, if the city and the state don’t pay out all the bucks, we can assume they too hate the poor.
Bad, Bad, Dr Dugger
Well Dugger it was Frank I had in my sights, but if you want a piece of it I’m happy to oblige.
Explain, please, why the burden should fall on New Orleans alone and not the nation as a whole.
(And by the way do you happen to consider yourself a Christian? Because I have a special place in my heart for wingnuts who think they are Christian.)
It’s about time we got to double team a leftie, eh, Dugger?
I think your ratio of guns to butter implies that the government, Bush’s in particular, is spending ten times as much on defense than it is on social services. I’m not sure who’s spending more than who, but I’ll bet neither one is spending ten times more than the other.
It’s a terrible analogy.
If you’re asking me outright if we should throw more money at social services, I challenge you to tell me what to spend it on. And I caution you in advance that I am loaded for bear on this issue.
It’s a common leftie compulsion to throw money at programs to “improve: them.
The money comes, but nothing improves. Tell me how it could be improved.
Lets see Sadie. Who said “alone” other than you? Primarily, yes, ‘alone’ no. But if an individual chooses to live in the Big Easy, he/she should be willing to pay whatever the price is for living in that city. That makes sense doesn’t it? Why should a poor farmer in Iowa or a busboy in New York City have to work even harder to subsidize somebody who chooses to live in a more risky city? People should be free to live in New Orleans but if they choose to do so, they should be required to look after themselves, pay their own way- via their own government. If I chose to live in an area right below an avalanche zone, is it right for me to demand the federal government construct expensive avalanche barriers to sustain my hotsy totsy little place.
And BTW what in the wide wide world of sports would my religion or lack thereof have to do with anything? Do you have something against Christians? Are you a Christian -o-phobe? A Christian hater? My arguments are what they are regardless of faith, color or creed. I thought liberals and progressives were supposed to be inclusive and open minded. Sheesh.
Dugger, who copied all the letters in a big round hand
Ummm, Frank, that’s not an answer. Can you answer the question or not? If you can’t, just say so and I’ll let you go on your merry way. But be honest here. Do you share the priorities of the Republican government or not?
Dugger, I just wanted to clear things up because I have always heard this place referred to as the United States of America. If you think the name ought to be changed to the Every-man-for-himself States of America, we need to talk about this because someone is going to have to order some new letterhead.
The reason I wanted to know about your religious identification is because I am a Christian, and I carry a special grudge for those who defile the name of that faith. If you don’t advertise yourself as a Christian you have nothing to worry about from me on that count.
Well, guess what Sadie. My religious affiliation or lack of it is none of your business. So you can take your special grudge do with it as you see fit. As for the rest of your argument, which is faulty on its own merits, not because you are apparently Christian and female, we have something called federalism in this country. It allocates powers between federal and state governments. State and local governments have unique powers and responsibilities. So it is neither all Federal nor all state. comprende vouz? verstanden sie? Perhaps you would like to federalize New Orleans; make it another Wash DC. The turn-a-blind-eye attitude towards New Orleans and Louisiana state Democratic politicians would make more sense were that the case NOW.
Dugger, Bad Christian or Hater of the Poor? Or both?
So I guess we should go ahead and order up that stationery, then?
So let’s recap: SadieB argued that the reason for the scarcity in Section 8 housing that Frank deplores (and uses as his own argument against the plan offered by the Democrats) is that for years the U.S. government has seen fit to spend more money on arms than food. Your response to her was why didn’t New Orleans raise its own taxes to pay for housing. After all, why should anyone subsidize someone else’s decision to live in a risky area:
Oh Duggie, you’re so cute when you’re so wrong.
As we near the end of the costliest decade in the 70-year history of government farm subsidies…taxpayers have spent more than $131 billion on federal farm programs over the past nine years. The total includes $16.4 billion spent during 2003, the fourth highest amount over the nine years and a 27 percent increase over 2002.
Guess what primarily drove the increase. C’mon, just a quick guess off the top of your pretty little head.
Surges in disaster payments.
It appears that it’s the rest of America that’s working harder to subsidize farmers. (But your busboy example still stands though. No one appears to be subsidizing busboys experiencing natural disasters.)
So, by your logic, people should be free to live on farms but if they choose to do so, they should be required to look after themselves, pay their own way- via their own state government.
While we’re at it, how about eliminating oil subsidies. Recently, oil companies received billions of dollars in tax breaks and subsidies in the recent energy bill (at a time when oil executives received the largest pay increases of any group of executives).
So it seems that in America today, it is commonplace to subsidize risks taken by others. So if your suggestion is that all subsidies should stop then you’re not actually arguing this thread. You’re arguing for a libertarian approach to government and that is an entirely different discussion.
Now go back and copy those letters again; this time, make sure you’re writing from left to right, OK? That’s a good human!
Sadie,
No just order the stationery.
So you ignoreed the point about federalism. Pretended it doesn’t exist. Pretend there is no such thing as delegation of powers. Its all Bush. Well how about this plain common sense question? Which makes more sense. We have a disaster in New Orleans. It would be better for the responsible government activity to be in (A) New Orleans (on site) or (B) Wash DC? (1,000 miles away)?
That clock is ticking.
BRRRRRNT. Thats Beulah the buzzer. If you answered New Orleans, you are correct!
Dugger Trebek
If you want to discuss parliamentary procedure while people die, well it’s a good thing you’re not a Christian.
Only please please don’t tell me Bush is a “leader.” Please don’t tell me he is a person who is “keeping our country safe.” Because if you can say that after everything that’s happened, I’m gonna hafta reach through this computer screen and throttle you.
My previous comment is still awaiting moderation, so let me address this:
The answer is actually (C) a coordinated response involving the city, the state and federal government.
As there was advance notice about Katrina, all branches of government had time to prepare. And because of Katrina’s severity, it was necessary that all levels of government coordinate emergency preparedness and response.
The plan PDF is now available to view. Go google it and see what the federal government was responsible for after all. (I’ll find my link later and post it if time permits).
sadie,
You can’t get past your religious hate can you. What does my religious faith have to do with anything? BTW Bush is THE LEADER of the country. Don’t you hate democracy? Sorry if that impels you to Landrieu-like violence – the typical liberal response.
And Maus, you missed the point completely. The question could just as easily apply to farmers or busboys or donut makers. Why should we force our citizens to work harder (at the point of a gun) to subsidize somebody living in a city that has been conclusively demonstrated as risky? Why not say that if YOU CHOOSE to live in this risky place, we will not bail you out when the trouble that we are telling you WILL come, comes? Why? Why? Work harder farmer. Work harder mechanic. Work harder roofer. People want to live in the Big Easy.
Dugger
SadieB: What the hell are you driving at? Am I marching in lockstep behind the RNC? No.
Now, if you have a real question, which requires a real answer, ask it…
However, I have to go out in a few minutes and will not return until 5:00 PM (EST). I have no time for foolishness…
Calling Dugger, “Bugger”? How adult of you, Mouse… Way to gain rhetorical points!
By the way, I guess your idea of fair is that since Bush’s administration knew the hurricane was coming, he’s criminally incompetent, but the Louisiana state officials and the City of New Orleans officials, possessing the same information, were helpless, and get a pass…
Bugger, my point was subsidizing others’ risk is a common practice in America. Why should people subsidize oil companies, auto makers, farmers etc, and not private citizens who were caught up in a horrible circumstances?
Does this mean that anyone living in areas prone to hurricanes, droughts or earthquakes should simply fend for themselves as well?
And are you saying that the people of New Orleans should figure out a way to take care of themselves now?
Take a pill, avenging angel, and simmer down. Dug has taken to misspelling or changing my name for the past few days, Herr Mouse, Fraulein Mouse, Maus, Mouse Brown etc…I assume it’s all in good fun and playing along (Duggie, Duggie Poo etc). It doesn’t appear to be bothering him, and it certainly hasn’t been bothering me. If I’m wrong about this, I’m sure that Dugger has the wherewithal to defend himself ably.
As for rhetorical points, I wasn’t trying to make any. I was making an actual point based on actual facts.
Seriously, get over yourself.
Bugger? Are we losing it Miss Mousie? Can’t we win with logic and intellectual debate? Got to go to the hate speech? I’m now -yes, yes- UNCOMFORTABLE. Come see Mousie’s hate everybody!!!
And Mousie, no one here has said that the Federal government should do nothing. Federalism permits a role for the Feds, states and local governemnts. But resources are limited and there must be some reasonable limit on the moral obligation of governments t sustain risky behaviour. Or do you disagree? Can a person do anything, no matter how costly and risky, and rely on the Federal (or state or local) governments to take money and resources from workers to bail him/her out – no matter the price. Keep in mind its fine for the Feds provide help but thats not the same as bottomless obligation to sustain risky behaviour – as was known well ahead of time. Thats why its up to the city of New Orleans to sustain themselve as far as making the city a safe, decent place to live. And that includes protection fro natural disater. After all, I have to buy flood insurance for my house. The US government nor the canadian governemnt gives me the money.
Dugger, Still UNCOMFORTABLE due to Mousie’s Vicious Hate Speech Attack
I learned about ten years ago in a course called The Making of Moden Europe, that in the days of the monarchy, there were no plans for naturally occuring disasters, even if they happened again and again every year. The example the professor used was rockslides, as a result of avalanches. Every spring, the King would summon the Lords, and tell them how many men to provide to get all the rocks off the roadways. There was no “Getting the rocks off the roads” department… It was all left up to the King.
Why don’t we try that system? Then, if anybody complains about how it’s being handled, they’ll get thrown into a dungeon, or get decapitated.
Certainly better than what’s going on now, I think.
Mousie? I bet you wouldn’t be calling me that if I had a penis. I am now OFFENDED, yes I am, at this rampant display of sexism.
So the basic argument here appears to be that the Dems have posited a plan of action and the conservatives on this site are objecting to it on the basis that it’s too expensive (Frank) and that the Federal government shouldn’t have to pay for it since New Orleans is a high-risk town (Dugger).
Duggie, no one here has said that the Federal government should do everything. You suggested that New Orleans fend for itself since lack of Federal support may be insufficient to support funded housing for everyone. The housing issue came up when Frank objected to the Dems’ relief plan (the subject of this post, lest we forget) due to the fact that it would cause the aformentioned funded housing shortages.
I’m not objecting to New Orleans participating in and providing funding for its own recovery. I was objecting to the basis for your position that the government should not subsidize risks taken by others by pointing out that the government often does exactly that.
Now you are changing tack and implying that I am supporting unlimited Federal support when in fact, I have said no such thing. I simply disagree that the entire cost of providing for the victims of the flood should be borne by the people of New Orleans as you have suggested.
I agree with Sadie that the government has already spent billions in reconstructing a country in which it fought a foolish war for ever-shifting reasons; I also agree that it seems only fair that a fraction of that amount be spent on providing for Americans and reconstructing a formerly great American city. Do you disagree with that Duggie?
[...] m/2005/09/05/the-progressive-century/#comments”>Progressive Century and Dems introduce Katrina Relief Plan.
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09/07/2005 2 [...]
I’m sure you won’t get any argument from the crowd in Washington.
Why did you leave out the last line, when it leads to the point of the whole thing, namely, that there was an unused plan, which is the same as no plan, wherein everybody runs to the “King”. And, that being the case, “the King” (George Bush) would be saying, “You left it to me, so that ipso facto, I could do nothing in advance, and now you’re complaining because I did nothing in advance?”
“Off with your heads!”
“To the dungeons!”
Contrary to popular left – wing belief, not all conservatives are knuckle – draggers, and are just as capable of nuance and subtlety, as Kerry and other liberals.