Republicans and other non-feeling entities from coast to coast will likely applaud the polling released this morning saying that 46% approve of the way Bush has handled the flooding.
Laugh it up. I don’t care what the polls are. And neither should any of the powerful with a conscience. Yes, I understand it was “just niggers” who had to die and be drowned and they don’t vote in the same numbers or contribute as much to political campaigns as the ruling class, but we had this fight eons ago in America.
The moral responsibility to secure and protect American citizens is not an issue you can wish away depending on how well it “polls”. This should also serve notice to the Democratic party: if you let them get away this, if you allow the contributory murder and suffering of black Americans to go without consequence because it doesn’t “poll” well, you will be damned with your Republican compatriots for all eternity.
You’re so right, Oliver. If we let them get away with genocide, we will be just as bad as they have been.
I suppose it is also Bush’s fault the corrupt Democratic regime of NO failed to fire up hundreds of buses to facilitate the MANDATORY evacuation (which Bush strongly urged Gov. Blanco to announce on SATURDAY) of its citizens.
http://junkyardblog.net/archives/week_2005_08_28.html#004752
An ounce of prevention and all…
BTW, nice race-pimping, OW.
One of your more disgustinf posts, Oliver… In the top 10, I think.
Congratulations!
The fact that the polling numbers are higher on this issue than they are on the Bush administration’s handling of Iraq are unconscionable. Iraq’s a dismal situation, sure, but at least they seem to have a plan in Iraq.
I have to assume that 46 percent of people in this poll are still in the denial stage. Because anybody who looks at the cold hard facts and looks at the federal reaction–which has not even been spun very well–can’t possibly believe that the Katrina rescue has been anything but FUBAR on the part of the administration.
I will say that I still don’t think the foot-dragging was about race…it was about class, however, and the two remain linked because of the general American attitude towards poverty. Regardless, I don’t think it does us any benefit to be framing the argument that the administration was slow to respond to dying black people, or dying poor people.
The only important thing is that the administration was slow to respond to the needs of dying AMERICANS. Of dying human beings. And that alone is worthy of condemnation, in this life and the next.
And Hughes, just to set the record straight, Republicans killing off Democrats might be ideocide (a neologism), but it isn’t genocide, an overused (often incorrectly, as it is now) word nowadays…
Genocide accomplishes ideocide in NOLA. That city votes a lot like Washington DC. Not no more. Now that that’s been dealt with, Louisiana can be more red than MS and AL.
Until today I was sure it was incompetence and disregard. But now I read FEMA kept the boats out, kept the Red Cross out, turned down aid from everywhere including Chicago, while the White House staged then dismantled photo-op food stations and canceled life-saving helicopter flights for Bush’s visit. So whatever -cide you want to call it, it wasn’t as undeliberate as I wanted to believe.
Once again, I’ve found out what a naive honky I am; my black brothers like Kanye West and OW here have to point it out to me.
This has to be the most disgusting thread I have ever seen on this site. I thought I was at the DU, for a moment. Playing the race-card in this manner, suggesting that Bush et. al. welcomed a “genocide” of the “niggers” is beyond the pale, and evidence of a sick mind.
You want to point fingers? Point them at NO Mayor Ray Nagan, who failed totally to follow NO’s hurricane plan. Point them at Governor Blanco for refusing the Bush administration’s request to take control of the situation 36 hours before she finally called for the evacuation.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090301680.html
Furthermore, there are just as many whites who have been hit hard by Katrina, and completely overlooked by the television media.
Even the sweetheart of the right-wing, Michelle Malkin is calling for the resignation of failed horseman Michael Brown, Director of FEMA.
Oliver, it occurs to me that I haven’t seen any outrage expressed by you, at the members of NO’s poorest and hardest hit, that chose to use this disaster as cover for their savage, and opportunistic criminal behavior. These animals that raped women, looted luxury goods, and violently attacked others, contributed significantly to the suffering of their own neighbors. Oh, but I bet they were uncle-Toms, hired by the evil Bushitler to help-out with the genocide.
Damn, conservatives are such pussies.
To the conservatives who have NOT YET moved from the first stage of mourning (DENIAL) to the next stage of ANGER, please move forward and stop making excuses for the administration.
[...] rime is ethnic cleansing. UPDATE II: Even more VALID ANALYSIS from Willis: Laugh it up. I don t care what the polls are. And neither should any [...]
Contrary to what this administration says about it’s decsions having nothing to do with polls, their reaction to criticism shows this falsehood better than most Bush and gang consistently proliferate.
I think the reaction to Katrina is endemic to the overall philosophy of these people. They believe the federal government has little to NO role in regional matters like this disaster. In the same way their attempts to mask their derision for the CONCEPT of social security protecting the elderly poor, disabled, orphans and widows, they show a faux sympathy for the suffering of these same persons in the wake of Katrina
phile:
This type of behavior can occur pretty much anywhere if the populace perceives that anarchy has broken out. A disturbingly small percentage of people have the wherewithall to maintain their morals in the presence of such mayhem. I am not attempting to excuse their behavior, but merely pointing out that this sort of thing could have been prevented had the government created a strong visible show of force on the ground to show the people that law and order still reign supreme.
Semanticleo: And your point is?
“Governmental bureaucratic incompetence, not bigotry, is to blame for the woeful slowness of FEMA s aid effort after Katrina struck. That the federal government botched up the relief effort should, unfortunately, come as no surprise: look at how many things our government routinely botches up, from the Big Dig to the attempt to keep our borders secure. The circumstances may be different (and more tragic), but the incompetence is just the same…”
http://drtucker.blogs.friendster.com/my_blog/2005/09/out_on_a_limb.html
Sorry, but this utter crap.
First: moral, law-abiding citizens do not become crazed rapists and murderers, under duress. We can accept, however, that under extreme stress people may resort to stealing food and other items, in order to survive. However, someone that runs around the city, shooting at rescue workers, raping and pillaging, is likely a very experienced criminal, taking advantage of an opportunity to engage in such behavior with impunity.
Second: it was most definitely a minority of people engaging in this behavior.
OK, phile. Have it your way. Criminals are bad. Criminals were opportunistic in the face of deteriorating conditions. We can all agree.
Why is it so important to you to have someone acknowledge the obvious?
Charles Mackay wrote the following in 1843 in Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, a book that has been continuously in print since then and is still a staple of social psychology:
“Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.”
Diffusion of responsibility is a well-documented society phenomenon. The case of Kitty Genovese is the most cited example of this. William Saletan echoes my sentiments in this article. He points out that even uniformed police officers have been involved in the looting.
The notion that everybody’s sin is nobody’s sin is a powerful component of social psychology and it takes a sadly uncommon mind to avoid this trap.
Frank;
There are several points, but one general one. If you are still making excuses for the Admin. you are in denial. Move on to anger where even neocon Michelle Malkin is.
Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.
Kind of describes the love affair cons have with the Bush administration.
Now that several days have passed, and the federal effort is in full swing, everybody has noted how well things are being done. Doesn’t anyone understand that things are being done well now because time was taken for planning and preparation?
I don’t know about any of the rest of you, but I am a manager in an industrial setting, and the six Ps (proper planning prevents piss poor performance) are paramount: you plan your work, and work you plan, and things go smoothly. When you don’t have a plan, when you move before you are ready, that’s when mistakes are made.
I fear to actually get involved in this particular thread, but I do want to point out something.
In times of disaster, people usually rally around their leaders (which is what many a conservative has preached for all us disenters to do). The fact that 47% of the public is not rallying should be considered telling. Yes, Bush’s popularity plummet isn’t a blowout — I doubt it ever will be. But the last major disaster (9/11) united this country. This one is going to tear us apart, and for some very legitimate reasons.
I think when the stark reality of the number of dead in NO comes to light, people’s opinions will change. Statistics can change minds. People will ask “How many of these deaths could we have prevented? What the hell was the plan? Didn’t 9/11 teach us anything?” And there will be no answers — or more to the point, no answers that anyone will like.
Oliver….if this makes you feel any better, that is an absolutely horrible number in the wake of a disaster. Usually, leaders who “rise to the occasion” poll in the 80’s and 90’s.
JK
It is a given that the poor are going to get screwed in America, the poor are generally considered dispensable ( until you need them to fight a war).
But a more important question is what is wrong with FEMA? If they can’t handle this, they sure can’t handle the aftermath of a terrorist attack on the US.
The disaster in NO is indicative of what faces the US the next time Bin Laden gets another stupid idea.
Yes, it’s race pimping to point out that race had an issue to play in this non-response. We must never mention race, and always pretend that we solved all those problems long ago, inconvenient truths and all.
Semanticleo: You are batting .0000 I am not “making excuses for the Admin.” You are reaching for ways to make them guilty of crimes they did not commit.
Second, I am not in denial. I am not in any stage of mourning, nor do I need your assistance — or any other liberal’s — in coping with these events. “Moving on to anger” would be required if I felt helpless — I’ve read Kubler – Ross, too — but I don’t.
You don’t know the meaning of the word neocon. I will not tell you what it means, but I will tell you that Michelle Malkin is not one. I will give you a hint: “neocons” are not ‘new’, or modern conservatives.
Finally, using the term “even” suggests that if someone as conservative as Michele Malkin is angry, then I should be, too.
If you are representative of all liberals, and I sincerely hope you are not, then all liberals are idiots.
Do you really think conservatives don’t care about anybody else but themselves? Do you really think that conservatives don’t get angry when children are separated from their parents, or left deserted on the side of a highway?
It was left wing national socialists who killed 12 million people in concentration camps (Germany); left wing communists who killed more than 50 million of their own citizens in their 75 year tyranny (Russia); it was communist north Vietnamese who let more than 10% of their population die, rather than surrender to the US, It was the Red Chinese who killed more than 30 million of their citizens, and Pol Pot’s communist Khmer Rouge (Cambodia) that killed millions of their dissenters.
But conservatives are the “bad guys”?
Puhleeeze
Well Frank, I’m glad to see you dropped that bogus Christian routine. It’s a real pet peeve of mine, wingnuts claiming to be Christian. Doesn’t it feel better to be honest, just let all that hatred hang out?
But I need some help from both you and phile. I need you to walk me through this new right wing talking point because I must admit I don’t quite grasp it.
Apparently there were some black people, presumably young and male, who turned to criminal behaviour after days of no food and water. Therefore it is a good thing that Bush’s FEMA caused the deaths of many many black people, even if some of them were not young or male? I mean maybe some of the old people were related to the criminals, is that it? Or the children who died of dehydration might have grown up to become criminals? Or maybe there were some who died, who were young and male, and though they didn’t actually commit crimes, they might have thought about it?
Help me out here I’m trying to understand. I don’t have any hopes of ever becoming a right-winger myself but I do try to stay current with the zietgiest.
It’s worth noting that after Hurrican Andrew, President Bush Sr. got a 67% approval rating for his handling of that storm. It was only weeks later, when the relief efforts flagged, that Bush came in for criticism. In late August 1992, when Bush’s overall numbers were plummeting, the public approved of his response by 67%. Today, with W’s approval sinking (though not as low as Sr. in late summer 1992), the public’s approval of his handling of the crisis is only 46%. JK is right. Those are terrible numbers.
Back from Vacation
Owing to his years of experience in disaster management, detailed knowledge of FEMA, and on-the-scene awareness of the problems pre- and post-Katrina, Oliver Willis informs us that there’s no need to
You lost me, SadieB. What hatred did I express?
SadieB:
Huh?
Frank;
I am not sure why conservatives see communism under every rock. Or, that any ‘liberal’ has to be pink, or red or whatever color you Goldwater campaigners want to paint them with. That is very Sixties of you.
Nor do I agree with the trite characterization that conservatives are all ‘nazis’.
(although you may agree some are)
But I do find it interesting that you mention the National Socialist Party in Germany of the 1930’s.
Like the Neocons of today this was a movement that was funded by the religious right. They had an ideology which promoted fear and distrust of neighbor or family. Hitlers rise to power during the depression was facilitated through the radios that he gave away to any who wished them.
In a time of economic hardship his message was the only thing heard.
And we know the rest of the story. So don’t get too hung up on the atrocities committed by past demi-gods. We have our own history to deal with. It doesn’t look like it’s gonna get prettier until it gets worse.
Okay you caught me that time. I skimmed the posts and let the rightwing ones run together in my mind. You did not express any hatred.
But am I incorrect in assuming you think Oliver is wrong to ask what role race had to play in this tragedy, else why would you call his post “disgusting?” I have seen all over the blogs, and heard on the radio, the rightwingers trying to defend the Bush administration by changing the topic to looters. Do you not share this point of view?
And please don’t tell me you think the Nazis were left-wing!?! Yes, I know their full name was National Socialists, but that is just plain ignorant. Maybe you’ve never heard this quote?
“Fascism should more properly be called corporatism, since it is the merger of state and corporate power.”
Now just who is it today who argues for complete, unfettered corporate control of the world, who gave us an energy policy written by oil companies, tried to privatize Social Security, and is now engaged in a war that profits no one outside of Halliburtin and again, the oil industry? Hint: it’s not the pinko hippy liberals.
I forgot to attribute that quote, it was Benito Mussolini.
Frank_D you show plenty of hatred to liberals calling us all idiots and suggesting we are the same as Nazis and Soviets. Stop saying that you don’t show hate, youre lying.
First of all, outer_space (origin or destination? Just wondering)
I didn’t call liberals idiots: “If you are representative of all liberals, and I sincerely hope you are not, then all liberals are idiots.” [emphasis added].
Second, I didn’t say liberals were the same as Nazis and Soviets. I implied that the villains were on the left, not on the right.
Third, you want to see hate, check this: {JK’s last three comments)
http://www.oliverwillis.com/2005/09/03/rehnquist-has-died/#comments
BTW, outer_space, check out SadieB’s posts above for some “friendly debate”.
SadieB, I’m still lost… What quote?
How did Benito Mussolini, another world class socialist (leftist) thug, get into this?
Exactly. The inverse of your argument is that things were not being done well before now because time was not taken for planning and preparation while there was still time.
There should have been a disaster recovery plan. All cities have them (or should) in conjuction and in harmony with state and federal plans to ensure timely and effective response to emergencies and disasters at various levels as required.
For example, during the blackout of 2003, the emergency level was high enough that we (at the local level) had communcations lines and offices set up to share information and make decisions at the federal, provincial and municipal levels of government. This plan had been in place and tested annually for years prior to its utilization in a real emergency. The activation of the plan and the response began within minutes of the emergency level being established and announced.
Apparently, there was such a plan:
Katrina’s arrival was predicted well in advance. Authorities at all levels had plenty of time to begin preparations and working the plan. Considering that this administration has been selling themselves as the only line of defense between U.S. citizens and the next national catastrophe, it is nothing short of appalling that their reaction was as slow and incompetent as it has been. The National Guard should not have been days away, it should have been hours away. Basic necessities like food and water and medical personnel should have been ready for dispersal prior to the hurricane’s arrival. They were not. Emergency centres and lines of communaction should have been in place and functional prior to the hurricane. They were not.
Even information coming out of FEMA was inaccurate or simply wrong. This nothing short of appalling and inexcusable.
Others on this thread have suggested that NO had turned down help from the Federal gov’t (this information is far from reliable BTW). If an emergency protocol had been in place and followed, the primary decision that would have been necessary was defining the level of emergency. All actions would have have followed the protocol for that level. In other words, because emergencies have a way of following an unpredictable path, emergency and disaster protocols are designed to facilitate the top-down decision-making process to allow for a speedy response with the necessary resources at every level.
BTW, I am a PM and have participated and led in emergency planning and response.
I love it when conservatives stop at the name of the Nazi party to accuse liberal philosophy of being complicit in the Holocaust. The National Socialists represented the extreme right-wing of German politics that was vehemently opposed to communism or socialism of any stripe. Their number one targets for abuse and intimidation in their rise to power were the left-wing intelligentsia and cultural avant-garde that thrived in the Weimer Republic. After seizing power, the Nazis purged German institutions of liberal and progressive thinkers. They staged “degenerate art” shows to “prove” a link between avant-garde art, mental illness and racial impurity. Conservatives who argue, as Frank did, that the Nazis were somehow liberal socialists are dangerously misinformed.
I always find it funny when conservatives attempt to describe Naziism as a left-wing ideology. It’s really quite cute.
Nothing cute about it. Socialism with a nationalist tinge, but socialism nonetheless. Look around you, JG. Look at all the totalitarian governments that ever existed: were mostly left wing or mostly right wing?
You know the truth, JG.
Dang, and I thought I was dealing with an educated man.
Okay. Mussolini was a fascist. He should know something about just what that movement stood for. He described it in terms that sound curiously similar to the philosophy of government currently being practiced out of our own White House these days. Does that help?
Do you even know what socialism is? Because the way you throw the word sound I’m beginning to wonder.
A lot of posts have appeared ahead of mine, after I posted mine. Mybe they were being typed while I was typing posts elwehere, but fit inderted ahead of mine….
The answer is yes to the first statement. No one should be dragging race into this, especially Oliver. He’s pulled the race card out may times; his attitude: something bad happening to bad people, find a guilty white person to blem it on.
At the time, he advocates personality. Apparntly, for Republican blacks in high places.
“Do you not share this point of view?” I’m not sure if there is any connection between looting and disaster management, except, of course, that there must be in the plan a plan to do something about it.
I don’t think that’s Bush’s problem, do you?
Mouse — what’s a PM?
And. since when disaster planning begin at the National Government level? they get called in by loval and state authorities..
You know that…
Okay I think maybe we are getting somewhere. You say Oliver is wrong to bring up race because “something bad happening to bad people find a guilty white person to blame it on.” My point was that yes, something bad happened to bad people, but something bad also happened to good people. A lot of them. A whole lot more good people than bad.
Would this same equation have held for a white city? Would America have been willing to watch thousands of white people die slow, agonizing deaths and been comforted by the thought that, “Well, you can’t really expect FEMA to help them, don’t you know there’s looting going on? Didn’t they kind of bring it on themselves, yada yada?” Somehow I don’t think so. I think if it was white people dying on TV Bush would’ve been impeached two days ago. He would have been put in prison.
PM=Project Manager
Great post, Oliver. One of your best.
I see a bunch of right winger whining about this entry. Must have really struck a nerve. They know it is true and they are only trying to distract.
No, what has people’s back up is the fact that Oliver Willis is hypocritical and averts his eyes when racism rears its ugly head on the left.
If you want to see a vivid illustration of this for yourself, head on over to the Q&O blog, where Oliver got Own3ed in response to this post. (qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=2508)
Offered the opportunity to condemn the hate groups welcomed into Camp Casey (Cindy Sheehan certainly didn’t), Oliver declined to do so every time. Very telling. Go and see for yourself.
Own3ed?
Haw.
Tuco, you ran away last week without telling us where Warren Christopher went after the bad, bad natural disaster. Was he getting his nails done or grooming his polo pony?
Either way, I hope somebody yanked his chain and told him to get back to work–as apparently someone did with Dr. Rice last week.