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The result of Hurricane Katrina is unlike anything America’s ever seen. We’ve seen a major American city essentially wiped out with casualties on a biblical level.
Where is our president, and where the hell has he been?
Kristy Sanchez-Trujillo
T-Mobile Outage
T-Mobile
Megan Gale
Sylvie Van Der Vaart
Clash Of The Titans
Ashley Neufeld
Afton Williamson
Kyrstin Gemar
Tesla Coil
Xperia X10
Cany Vossough
Reza Vossough
Ninel Conde
Julia Louis Dreyfus
Guardians of Childhood
Botox
Chase Utley
Prince Of Persia Sands Of Time
Cherokee
Christopher Lee
Prince Charles
Prince William
Prince Harry
Cleveland Browns
Ernie Accorsi
Reina Flynn
Reid Gray
Cole Hamels
Brett Myers
Quinn Gray
SEPTA
Burlington Northern
Star Wars The Old Republic
Nightmare On Elm Street
Gerard Butler
Amrit Dhaliwal
Louise Linton
Gwen Stefani
Curtis Lavelle Vance
Anne Pressly
H1N1 Vaccine
Melody Ross
Oasis Of The Seas
Disney Cruise
Selita Ebanks
Anthony Sowell
JJ Redick
Axe Body Spray
Christopher Walken
Dragon Age Origins
And then there’s this: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_08/007014.php
Ole Bush is on the tube. Something needs to happen. I am absolutely disraught because my entire family lives in Slidell,Metarie, and New Orleans. I can’t contact some of my family and if evacautions aren’t stepped up people will start to get sick and die.
According to Kevin Drum (http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/) it appears that FEMA has been virtually dismantled and is to be replaced by an as yet unnamed new directorate.
“This year it was announced that FEMA is to “officially” lose the disaster preparedness function that it has had since its creation. The move is a death blow to an agency that was already on life support. In fact, FEMA employees have been directed not to become involved in disaster preparedness functions, since a new directorate (yet to be established) will have that mission.”
Isn’t that kind of like jumping out of an airplane with a sewing machine and parachute makin’ instructions?
Leadership is only the beginnings of your trouble. A quick tour of the disaster zone, once Bush gets his head out of his ass, is only the start.
I urge everyone to read about Cyclone Tracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclone_tracy), which wiped the city of Darwin, Australia off the map in 1974. That was a city of 30000 people at the time, and it took at least five years to rebuild it, with 2/3rds of those needing to be evacuated and housed elsewhere during the rebuilding.
Now multiply that by a factor of 30. That’s what New Orleans is facing. You’ve got 1 million refugees with just the clothes on their backs to feed, clothe, and house for years, starting now. You must hold Bush to account on this, and demand real relief and not just token guestures, or you’ve got Darfur on your doorstep.
Mike, how many New Orleans refugees have you offered to put up in your spare room for the duration? (I’m in Australia, so hardly in a position to offer that right now – I wish I was).
Looking at your blog, I see that you’ve used this disaster as an opportunity to fundraise for the Church of the Nazarene. Hardly the first organisation that I would think of in a time of crisis. And you go on a rant about looters and their prospects of going to Hell for it.
The major lefty blogs (Atrios, DailyKos, etc) over the last few days have been fundraising too, with strict instructions to donate to the Red Cross, not some relatively unknown Christian sect who looks at the disaster as “This seems like a prime area for Christian ministries”. Yeah, bible-thumping the desperate will help.
Where is the Democratic party? Take a quick look at the Web sites for the DNC and RNC. Katrina relief is front-page DNC. Bush’es VJ speech is on the RNC, with a tiny Red Cross donation button in the corner.
I just completed a brief tour of many a-list blogs, from both the right and left sides of the blogosphere, and was not at all surprised with what I found. While the left blogosphere is in full hyperventillation mode about what they perceive as an absent president, or a vacationing president, the right blogosphere is all about mobilizing grassroots aid to the victims of Katrina. Bush will DO no less than Clinton would have done, without all the “I feel your pain” bullshit.
It’s time for you liberals to grow up and act like adults, or I swear to god we’re going to stop the car, and leave you on the side of the road.
Is that what you call focused leadership? Them being in tears is exactly the problem, and damning proof that they have no idea what they’re doing.
White Whale, my prayers are with you and your family.
…
Maybe we should be asking, where is the United Nations?
After all, aren’t they the moral standard-bearers for international relief efforts? Aren’t they the arbiters of “stingyness?”
New York is only a few hours away from New Orleans by jet. It’s been three days now. Where is Kofi Annan? Where are the UN food shipments? Tents? Drinking water stations?
For that matter, where is Hollywood? I haven’t heard of a single Hollywood celebrity announcing a substantial donation from movie industry elites. They could raise millions for John Kerry, but where is the cash for the poor and homeless?
And where is the local Democratic party? They can find fleets of buses to carry the poor to the voting booths on election day (and provide helpful instructions on which candidates to vote for) but where were the Democratic party buses when the poor needed them to evacuate the city?
If something is wrong in New Orleans, it goes far beyond Bush and the Republican party.
phile, those a-list left blogs have been calling for donations too. But they can walk and chew gum at the same time. Hence, the perfectly valid criticism of Bush draining National Guard resources to Iraq, cutting funding to improve levvies, and what-not. Those issues must be dealt with, to ensure that a screwup like this doesn’t happen again. The real test of Bush is whether he rises to the occasion to fix these mistakes, or just punts responsibility elsewhere.
As for Clinton, well I happen to think that a little “I feel your pain” bullshit would come in real handy right now. It’s called compassion for the less fortunate. Look it up. The Mayor of New Orleans and the Governor of Louisiana are in tears right now. Bush only cut his vacation short when he started getting bad press because of it.
Is this what you call focused leadership? Playing guitar? First goats, now guitars; President Bush has a leadership problem.
Hey Joe, here’s a sneak preview for what phile’s going to say to whatever you post: Moonbat moonbat blah michael moore fat hyperventilate Cindy Sheehan is a traitor blah blah why no, I’ve sacrificed nothing for this all important war on terror blah blah moonbat liberals suck etc….
Joseph, why don’t you tell us what Bush should have been doing. I’m all ears.
Exactly. With a little less flair, however.
That we’re even debating what the president did in a time of crisis was it enough/wasn’t it? is disgusting. If he had acted, this thread would be moot.
Thanks, TomY. You saved me having to write all that.
I just wish Bush hadn’t cut funding for New Orleans’s levies in his budgets. Is that really such a high hurdle? Oh wait, you’re just here to tell the lie that the left doesn’t fundraise for Katrina victims, and throw the word moonbat around. Go back to making excuses for the accountability president on Free Republic, why don’t you?
phile said, “Is that what you call focused leadership? Them being in tears is exactly the problem, and damning proof that they have no idea what they re doing.”
You insensitive clod.
They are in tears because their entire city has been washed away and the nearest help that could do them some good (military with helicopters and amphibious vechicles) is days away at best. Let’s see how well you would cope in a similar situation. You’d be sitting in the corner rocking back and forth mumbling to yourself in no time.
What they need *right now* is someone to go in, give them a big ole hug, and then say “right, here is how I am going to help you get through this”. When you are sinking, you need someone, anyone, to throw you a lifeline. Seeing people on the shore playing guitars and eating cake while your life is washed away is enough to make anyone cry in frustration. Anyone with a heart that is. Which you seem to be sorely lacking.
Bush’s job is to make sure federal disaster aid and relief is allocated and on-site. The elected officials in the affected states are the ones responsible to lead their constituencies through these horrible times.
Please explain to me what Bush isn’t doing that he should be doing, in order to really help the situation, and what other presidents have done in the past, during comparable events.
Looking back on the Florida hurricanes from the last few years, Jeb Bush was obviously in charge, and effectively led his state through the crises. The president’s role was minimal throughout.
I swear to allah that people like Joseph have to be some of the most patently un-serious people walking upright. Moonbats such as him apparently would prefer if our President dropped everything, starting screaming, yelling, and crying about what a horrific disaster it is, hold some press conferences on site, taking away valuable resources needed elsewhere. According to Joseph, the President is not to eat, especially cake, attend any functions, or do anything that the moonbats might not consider to be sympathetic enough. The reality is that no matter what he does, they will find a reason to criticize him.
Absolutely correct, JD. I share your righteous indignation at all this BDS-driven ankle-biting.
JD, phile, the last time I checked, I was able to walk upright AND be serious. Would I prefer if President Bush dropped everything and helped out? OF COURSE. Why did he go to Arizona and California when people were dying as he ate cake and played guitar? Why? Can you give me ONE good reason why you think he’s got his priorities in order on that one? And please, I don’t give a rat’s ass what he eats. That you think I’m referring to cake and not to what that image represents truly signifies your arrogance and ignorance. It’s not what he was doing, it’s what he WASN”T doing. He could have lead in a time of crisis from the start; instead, he went west to beat a dead horse. Plain and simple. And nothing, NOTHING, you right wingers will EVER say will change that fact. Nothing you do will erase that picture from America’s collective memory.
Both the Coast Guard and National Guard have plenty of choppers and crews working 24/7, rescuing the flooded residents of New Orleans. How many gd choppers doing rescue work are required, in order for you to be satisfied that Bush isn’t an evil chimp?
As for amphibious vehicles:
Hm, I wonder if the President has anything to do with that? It’s not like he’s the commander in chief, or anything.
Or, they would see her as human just like them, able to feel the same pain they are going through, and then pull together to work on the crisis in concert.
Kathleen Blanco seems nothing less than a quivering mass of jello.
Older posters might recall another woman Democrat governor, Ella Grasso of Connecticut, a hard-working, rumpled woman whose sterling leadership during a winter storm crisis in the 1970’s will be long remembered.
And tell me, why aren’t those residents of N.O. being told WHERE to evacuate to?
Oh, wait, that’s Bush’s responsibility!!
phile, I was responding to your nonsense that the poor in the superdome would be angry at the governor for falling into tears. I gave you an alternative way for them to look at it: “she’s going through what we are – she understands – let’s help her out”.
Bush is the leader of the country. If he doesn’t show leadership in a time of crisis, he should be replaced with someone who will.
“And tell me, why aren t those residents of N.O. being told WHERE to evacuate to?”
What is your evidence that they are not being told where? Are you monitoring every radio and TV broadcast in the area? I seriously doubt the denizens of the superdome are happily watching TV right now – no electricity.
And there is still the logistical exercise of getting so many people across miles of water. “Evacuate to So-And-So County” does no one any good if they have no way to get there.
“Oh, wait, that s Bush s responsibility!!”
Yes, organising a huge flotila of rescue craft would seem to be something that Bush can do a lot better than Blanco, don’t you think?
phile, I already answered that. Military with helicopters and amphibious vehicles. Like, yesterday. Oh, so sorry. They are currently in Iraq. Because you never know when you might need an amphibious vehicle in the middle of a desert!
What rhys said. Did Michael Moore steal your heart, phile?
So, what you’re really saying is that states don’t require strong leadership, because that’s Bush’s responsibility.
Bush’s war of choice has deprived the states hit by Katrina of 6500 National Guardsman in their time of crisis, and all you can talk about is how liberal bloggers aren’t raising enough money and how the Governor of Louisiana cried during a press conference.
Is this what passes for seriousness at littlegreenfootballs these days?
You people are too much. If I was one of those poor souls in the superdome, and saw my governor reduced to tears, at a time when I was counting on her to do her job, I would be livid. In a time of crisis, leaders do not have the luxury of buckling under the emotional stress of the moment. They’re duty, and responsibility, is to get the job done. Kathleen Blanco’s job is to coordinate the response to the crisis in her state, and Bush’s responsibility to giver her what she needs, not do her job for her. To date, she has failed miserably to do her job, and my compassion is with the people who are worse off as a result.
Bush cut funds for New Orleans’s levy reinforcement.
Bush deemphazised FEMA’s role in natural disaster relief.
Bush’s immediate reponse to the flooding of New Orleans was to read my pet goat, no wait, play guitar.
These things are not going to go away no matter how many times you call liberals unserious or moonbats, or how much you pathologically hate Hollywood or the United Nations. Bush is the most unpopular president since WWII, and sticking your head in the sand is exactly what the left wants you to do. Keep it up, and maybe we can get him down to 35% approval!
In a time of crisis, leaders do not have the luxury of buckling under the emotional stress of the moment.
You’re absolutely right. Good ole’ President Bush didn’t buckle –
He ran away!!
Once again, I ask you to illustrate how he has failed in his duy to help the people in the Katrina ravaged states. He has directed federal resources, mobilized the Nazy, and pledged to provide whatever support the respective state governments require. That’s his job during this crisis, along with the requisite visits to the affected areas – something that NEVER occurs before several days have passed. One must not forget that much security preparations must be made before the president, whether his name is Clinton or Bush, makes any public visit, anywhere.
Thanks for joining us Matty. Since you’re taking the same position as Rhys and Tony, perhaps you would like to respond to the same question I put them (for which neither have provided a response):
Please explain to me what Bush isn t doing that he should be doing, in order to really help the situation, and what other presidents have done in the past, during comparable events.
phile,
For starters, he could have cut short his vacation about 4 days ago when Katrina was a Category 5 heading straight for N.O. He could have put a lot more time and effort into coordinating an evacuation plan for the area. Knowing that over 1/4 of the Louisiana National Guard – plus much of its equipment – is over in Iraq, he could have cobbled together a more effective security and rescue force.
After the hurricane passed through, he should have headed straight to the disaster area, rolled up his sleeves, and played a leading role in the efforts to rescue the stranded and keep the survivors fed and sheltered.
Riddle me this, Joseph. How many people that have lost family members, loved ones, their homes, etc … are giving 3 freaking seconds of their thoughts to where the President is at this time?
Both the Coast Guard and National Guard have plenty of choppers and crews working 24/7, rescuing the flooded residents of New Orleans. How many gd choppers doing rescue work are required
Gotta call ‘nonsense’ on this.
Any helo can only fly about 12-16 hours/day–and that’s for a short duration of time. They require mandatory maintenance downtimes–as do the crews. And understand that a helo can’t fly 12-16 hours continuously; their fuel endurance only permits about 2-3 hours–or less depending on the mission. Additionally, it’s very likely these aircrews are only doing limited ops at night.
But let’s answer your question–in a city and surrounding area where some 100-200K might require SAR ops, coupled with medevac and transport ops–do you really believe there are enough helos?
I’ll guarantee you those aircrews don’t think so.
JD, will you let us know when President Bush starts to do the job that you layed out so well in your entry? Or why, at the very least, he only started doing it today, when people have been dying for three days?
phile : The short answer to your question is that the leftists response is essentially President Bush should have done … the opposite of whatever he did. They would not have been satisfied with anything. If he flew there, and got out and walked around, serving exactly no purpose whatsoever, they would have barked about a photo-op. If he actually does his job, mobilizes appropriate amounts of the military, and has the appropriate federal agencies do what they can, within their power, they cry because he is not giving them their “I feel your pain” moment.
Actually TomY’s response is pretty much spot on for what I expected. When asked what President Bush should have done, the response is he should NOT have done A, B, C, D, etc … which are wholely or partly unrelated to the question posed.
JD, I’m sure many of them were eagerly awaiting a massive federal response. When it didn’t come, I’m sure they were at the very least curious. Once they see where their leader was, they’ll be enraged. You’re saying, rightly, that their thoughts were elsewhere when disaster struck. Now that the storm has passed and the response has begun, that it did not begin soon enough is akin to letting the person trapped in quicksand sink a few extra feet before reaching out with the tree limb.
I’m not sure where I implied that ALL choppers were flying 24/7. It is true, however, that at any given moment, there are active search and rescue missions going on. Whether or not more choppers are needed, I can not say for sure.
Shorter JD: “It was a GOOD thing Bush defunded New Orleans’s levies in his budgets. It was GOOD that he deempasized FEMA’s natural disaster role. It was GOOD he sent all the National Guard away to Iraq to faciliate Rumsfeld’s idiotic pet theories about military reorganization.” Typical that he would ignore all those issues. All conservatives can talk about these days is the left, or their twisted vision of it. So when there’s no grieving mother to demonize, or no war hero to call a coward, they flounder like poor JD and phile here.
Riddle me this, phile. We were told that Bush was able to do anything he could do in Washington from the “Western White House” in Crawford. We were told he wasn’t on vacation, he was avoiding Washington due to repairs being made to the White House. If he WASN’T on vacation and COULD do as good a job from Crawford as from D.C., then why the hell did he leave Crawford early to go back to Washington?
More of this vacation obsession. Let’s get this straight: whatever the President has to do, he can do at the WH, from the ranch, or on AF1 – i other words: wherever he is. Enough with this vacation crap… as if he told his secretary to hold all calls for 5 weeks. Presidents don’t take vacations like you and me take vacations.
Firstly, how on earth do you know what he was doing all weekend, with respect to preparations for this hurricane? He’s not vacationing in the Big Brother house, so I’m not sure how you can account for his every waking moment. Secondly, coordinating an evacuation is the responsibility of the people hired for such matters. The President’s responsibility is to allocate federal resources, not play Macgyver.
For chrissakes, man! You f**king kill me. That doesn’t even merit a serious response.
I think he should not have cut funds for New Orleans s levy reinforcement.
I think he should not have deemphazised FEMA s role in natural disaster relief.
I think he should not have sent 6500 Gulf National guardsmen to fight his damn fool war of choice.
Now, I think he should take responsibility for these mistakes.
Oh, wait, responsibility only applies to Dan Rather. I forgot.
“That doesn t even merit a serious response.”
Translation: “You don’t even *deserve* to have me call you a moonbat.”
Serious people don’t apologize for defunding levies the day after this kind of catastrophe. Go back to Free Republic.
Spirits lifted? Try waving your arms for help when rescuers fly overhead, only to see them fly away.
Their rage is irrational, ours is fact- and reality-based.
That’s pretty funny. This coming from somebody who believes that people who were trapped in their attics because of flood waters would believe that their spirits would be lifted knowing the President took a chopper flight overhead.
The phony left wing ‘outrage’ has reared its’ ugly head again. You frigging people are more transparent than a sheet of plastic wrap.
Who is the one using profanity? And it was a Republican who said “reality-based community,” not a Democrat. If you want insufficient, try reading the two articles I linked to above, proving without a shadow of a doubt that federal funding was reduced to the areas that have failed in the wake of Katrina.
You have got to be fucking kidding me. We are fueled by rage? Who is it on here that pillories President Bush for every single thing he does, ever perceived slight? Who on here does not even have the common decency to address a sitting President in a respectful manner?
Reality-based ?! Such a beautiful little flippant phrase that is rendered comical in light of your posts. Apparently you know lots and lots about the logistics of the types of response that has been set in motion, so you could easily point out how your “massive federal response” would have been instituted. While you are at it, how about describing how the existing federal response is insufficient. Or, do you just sit back and think that people, equipment, goods, etc … just magically appear somewhere?
Please point out where I have blamed any victims. Please point out where I have attempted to create any victims.
Joseph, in regards to your photo op question, I would answer that neither of them would do one damn thing to help one single person affected by this natural disaster. Neither has any effect, except in your mind.
Is it too much for you to act like grown ups ?
Of course, that is exactly right.
When Joseph is asked about the responsibilities for the aftermath of the hurricane, apparently his list includes ; 1) President Bush, and now 2) the rescuers. Nice.
Seriously, TomY. These guys are like machines fueled by rage. Their rage is irrational, ours is fact- and reality-based. When there isn’t, as you said, a mother to demean or a veteran to deride, they fill the void not by helping the victims, but by blaming them … and creating new ones.
And thanks, phile, for taking the time to be the thread police on a progressive blog. Wow.
“since you re so adamant that Congress funding cuts are significantly responsible for the levee system s failure”
All I have ever said is that Bush has cut levy spending when clearly, the pendulum shoul’ve been swinging the opposite way. At the least, it’s something that should be investigated. But you’re the one who’s certain that the President’s off the hook for this one. But then, he’s always off the hook isn’t he? That’s his whole life in a nutshell, really.
Not to mention the fact that we’re currently engaged in a war of choice that’s deprived us of the National guard in a time when we need them home more than ever. Why did we do it that way? Because of Rumsfeld’s crackpot theories about military restructuring, and because Bush was never willing to institute a draft to demonstrate the courage of his convictions in Iraq. Because he wanted easy answers, and he’s been given them. The only surprise is that it’s taken this long for his poll numbers to collapse.
Fueled by rage? Yes, conservatives are. We see it in every post, subjects that are completely unrelated get brought in, since they’re so central to conservative narrative. 1) liberal media 2) hollywood 3) the UN/France. These are three things you will see every day on Drudge, Instapundit, Hannity, Rush, you name it. Three institutions that, really are quite small in the overall scheme of things, but which loom like Freudian nightmares in the conservative mind.
Ok, it’s time to prove whether or not you actually know what you’re talking about, are regurgitating a brand-new anti-Bush talk-point. I can say with absolute certainty that I have no idea what’s what, with respect to NO levee funding, and if more funding would have made any difference. Please enlighten me as to how the lack of funding over the last 4 years contributed to this disaster. Specifically, what contigencies were not put into place, due to lack of funding, that would have strengthened the levee system to handle the storm surge caused by a category 4 or 5 hurricane.
I don’t have said information but, since you’re so adamant that Congress’ funding cuts are significantly responsible for the levee system’s failure, I’m sure you can elaborate with some specifics.
Harsh words, “phony outrage.” Like anyone cares whether you think I am, in fact, angry at Bush defunding the levies.
JayC, by contrast, saw the devastation caused by Katrina and thought, “I think the most virtuous response to this kind of suffering is to go make excuses on a liberal blog.” Truly you are a Christian among Philistines Jay, and I am humbled simply to hear your upright, moral message.
… and what’s better, a photo op from the disaster area, or a photo op of cake eating and of guitar playing?
Wilbur,
I don’t disagree with the second part of your statement. Bush’s speech today, for example, was hollow and very much uninspiring. That doesn’t mean for a second that he is failing to perform the duties of the office of the president. There’s a difference between reasonable criticism and the typical demagoguery that’s the hallmark of many of this site’s posters.
I don’t want Bush “rolling up his sleeves” anywhere near those rescue operations. I’m sure the people in charge of those have enough incompetent loons to deal with.
What _would_ make me feel a little better about Bush was if he could show the slightest capacity for inspiring and compassionate leadership. Which in this, as in other situations, he is apparently completely incapable of doing. phile, if you look back on inspiring conservative leaders like Ronald Reagan, Barry Goldwater, Teddy Roosevelt, I’m sure even you can recognize the difference.
JD, try reading into what I write. I wasn’t blaming the rescuers, I was likening Bush’s low-level flyover to a situation where someone is aching for help only to see it get so close yet so far away. Is nuance lost completely on you?
Try this. And then this. Look, the hurricane which no one disputes or blames Bush for wasn’t a man-made disaster. It appears the resultant flood may have been.
Hey TomY, show me where I called anyone a moonbat. You’ve put that term into my mouth so often in this thread, you actually believe I said it.
Thanks for the laugh.
As I predicted, not a shred of substance on the levee funding issue. Just the same old Liberal mantra: every problem could have been avoided had we only thrown more money at it, while we could – never taking into account how said money would have been spent. Perhaps, we should refurbish the levee system with actual dollar bills.
You’re right, I’ve got my threads confused. All you guys who think that defunding the levy system and sending the national guard away were a good thing — you all look alike to me.
Should I still fuck-off? You didn’t specify.
BTW, TomY, that was a very gracious apology. In any case, I think it’s obvious to any casual observer of this thread who’s really “fuelled by rage”, right Joseph?
And where today, during the president’s speech, did he ask for a national sacrifice? All I heard him do was say that it was “hard work” to be in the oil industry. Meanwhile, we’re taking it in the shorts at the pump.
talking points has alink to red cross right at the top.
kos has an ad for the red cross on the top right.
washingtonmonthly: right at the top.
You really are a fucking idiot, phile. Did you think I wouldn’t visit those sites?
Slur? It’s exactly what I observed after visiting dozens of left and right blogs. Go have a look for yourself.
Of course. I also think you should withdraw your cowardly slur about liberals not donating as much as conservatives.
Or hollow promises and unfunded mandates. Perhaps a faith-based levee. Something along the lines of what you would have done.
From the left:
Atrios main page: one brief entry with a link to a list of places to donate.
KOS main page: nada
tpmcafe main page: nada
washingtonmonthly: i do not have access
From the right:
LGF main page: seven posts, several of which are massive clearinghouses for information on how to help
instapundit main page: tons of info on how to help
I could go on, but I’m sure it would accomplish nothing. I stand by my original statement.
Talkingpoints, washingtonmonthly, atrios, kos, tpmcafe are the ones I check regularly, and they all have them. I think you’re a liar.
After the hurricane passed through, he should have headed straight to the disaster area, rolled up his sleeves, and played a leading role in the efforts to rescue the stranded and keep the survivors fed and sheltered.
For chrissakes, man! You f**king kill me. That doesn t even merit a serious response.
Ha ha! I know phile! I myself bust a gut laughing right after I posted that comment. What the hell was I thinking??
You see, I forgot who we’re dealing with here. It’s pretty ludicrous to think President Little Boy Blueblood would do something even remotely compassionate and humane like get directly involved in an effort to save a drowning city. Why, he might get his precious little hands dirty. And he might be forced to (gasp!) rub shoulders with the commoners. After all, we all know Bush only associates with two kinds of people: the “haves” and the “have-mores.”
I would like to point out, boys and girls, that comparing how differing groups of sites are linking to donation sites is slightly less juvenile than comparing penis sizes in the locker room, and not nearly as entertaining.
Joseph, I am not concerned with who coined the term. You using it to described your way of thinking is nothing short of laughable.
Insufficient, not timely enough … maybe he should have mobilized rescue teams the day before the hurricane hit, so they could all just be standing there waiting to get annhililated in the storm. Kind of hard to respond to the wake of a natural disaster until the natural disaster has actually passed.
TomY – How much was cut from their budget? What was their budget when President Bush took office? What were their budget requests? How much would it have costed to build a levee that would withstand a Cat 4 hurricane? Cat 5? Would those absolutely or hopefully stop the water? What funding level were you crusading for prior to this disaster, or did you jump on this bandwagon after Kos told you to ?
Matty – I was going to attempt to respond to your post, but it is hard to come up with a response to a post that is so obviously devoid of reality. Suffice it to say that the job of ANY President of the United States, is NOT to do as you described. In fact, it would be incredibly stupendously irresponsible for ANY President of the United States to do so.
Phile –
Here’s the broad categories of individual, private response: For those with the time and the training, there’s direct involvement in the relief effort; for those without the time or the training, there is the cash donation to a responsible relief organization; and for those without the time, training or money (and even for those who have al three) there is prayer.
As for myself, the first place I went to donate what I could was the Red Cross. http://www.redcross.org/ When the tsunami hit (and throughout the year for certain family birthdays) I gave money to Mercy Corps. http://www.mercycorps.org/
For those of us who cannot give our time, a link to a site is all we need to do all we can. If someone has time and training to get involved but doesn’t know where to go, the Red Cross is still probably the best place to go as it is directly plugged into the major relief efforts. If a site has 100 links to choose from, most people will still only be able to donate money to one site, so pissing contests over who has the most links to the most charities on their sites is ludicrous.
I understand, however, where your frustration comes from. No doubt for those, like yourself, who supported Bush through the nation’s worst terrorist attack, through what is rapidly becoming one of its most expensive foreign wars, through record gas prices, through the gutting of funds for the nation’s infrastructure and now one of the most mismanaged disaster responses in recent memory, there is a great inner need to overcompensate for your misplaced faith. I recognize and understand the struggle that divides you. Could you really have been that wrong, that mislead? Denial is the natural first response. Give it time and slowly you will be able to accept your role in this nightmare of a presidency and come to terms with it. We will be waiting for you and we will forgive you. We are all Americans, afterall, and everyone makes mistakes. In the meantime, don’t bring your righteousness here. You and other Bush supporters have a lot to answer for in voting for this failure of a man and a leader.
TomY,
Yes, but all of those sites were late to the party.
Reason: They were focusing all of their energy into trying to come up with ways to blame Bush for what had happened. Unlike non-leftist sites, where the first instinct was to think about the actual victims, not to try and score political points doomed to reach their targets anyway.
“regurgitating a brand-new anti-Bush talk-point.”
Oh shut up phile. You’re just pissed that we got our talking points out the door before your side could come up with some cockamamie scheme to blame it all on Clinton. If it’s good enough for you, it’s good enough for us.
I’ll remind you of this in two days time when Rush, Hannity, et al are repeating the Republican talking points. Because as sure as I’m sitting here, some think tank is right now focus grouping some excuse for Bush’s incompetence that blames it on everyone but himself.
You made up the rules to this modern media game. We’re simply making you play by them.
Tuco -
That’s bullshit and you know it. This whole holier than thou discussion is stupid and childish, apparently the only response that conservatives have when faced with serious questions about Bush’s policy priorities and management skills. Would anyone like to take a stab at actually defending Bush’s funding choices in 2003 and 2004 and current leadership in this time of crisis?
This is why debating with the left is so much fun. Instead of addressing any points of substance, you guys are all about the ad hominem, laced with the occasional paranoid ranting. And, how hostile you become toward people that don’t agree with you. I wonder why you find it so difficult to just have a civilized conversation. Perhaps, this hostility is just the manifestation of your frustration at not being able to articulate a reasoned response to a question put to you.
TomY, I don’t think you know how to read.
I never mentioned this site, and the one sole link is exactly my point, which I will restate: the size of the effort to mobilize help for Katrina victims is miniscule on the left, while the effort from the right is comparitively massive.
Once again, I must question your ability to read, and understand simple concepts. Perhaps, you might explain to me how running an ad suggest that KOS and his diarists are working on drumming up aid and support for Katrina victims. Everything I have said on the matter has been related to blog posts, because that’s what counts. Not getting paid to run an ad.
Again, the one sole link is exactly my point.
More of that charming liberal charisma.
Mr Ad Hominem Pot, meet Mr Kettle.
I didn’t attack you. I attacked the you of two days hence, when you come back with some asinine right-wing talking point to blame everyone but Bush.
We answered the question. You just didn’t like the answer. If you are only looking for an answer that confirms your own viewpoint, then why bother asking the question? It is not a “debate” if you mark us down for merely disagreeing with you.
To clarify, how exactly is this a “debate” when you are one of the participants and you have also elected yourself the adjudicator of what the correct answer is? You’re not looking for a “debate”, but rather blind agreement with your viewpoint.
That second graph should not have been blockquoted. I’m still waking-up.
Keep moving those goalposts, phile. “Oh, free ad space for the red cross doesn’t count as promoting disaster relief. Links at the top of the page don’t count. Liberals don’t CAAAAAARRREE about the victims of Katrina the way IIIIIIII DOOOOO.”
Oh, how wrong you are. This has nothing to do with politics. This has to do with values. Today’s liberal is inclined to sit back and expect the government to fix everything, during a crisis such as we are seeing. Conservatives tend to get involved and do what they can to help. When you tour the blogosphere, that’s exactly the difference one will see between the left and right blogosphere. Using this crisis to once again attack Bush, and find ways to blame him for everything wrong under the sun, is precisely the politicing you’re referring to.
How hilarious that cons will count column inches for disaster relief on a liberal blog to make a political point. Do you know how loopy that is?
Tomy, it is obvious that cons care, they are ordering “Support the Katrina Victims” ribbons from China right now. That will cover up the unsightly mark on their cars from the “Support the Troops” ribbon that fell off months ago.
frameone said:
“That s bullshit and you know it.”
Sorry, I don’t know it. I read a lot of blogs, both liberal and conservative, and the conservative blogs first instinct was to think about the victims.
The liberal bloggers’ first instinct was first to figure a way to blame Bush for an act of nature, and only in retrospect remember that there were more important things to think about than scoring political points.
What has become of this country?
We’ve gotten to the point in our political discourse where we are blaming the other side because they don’t put a link to a relief effort on their blog?!
I have to say I have been pretty disgusted with the coverage of Katrina from both the media (with a few exceptions) and both the left and the right side of the political spectrum – the left wants to blame Bush for just about everything in regards to this storm while the right shoots back and blames someone else – hell, even the lunatics on the fringes of both parties are finding someone to blame.
If we can’t even come together over a natural disaster, then, I’m sorry, but I don’t see any way that things can get better in this country. This is why there is so much political apathy in this country – too many on the left and right are too busy complaining about each other rather then trying to work together to improve the standard of living.
Sorry for the rant, but I think both sides need to take a step back, look at themselves in the mirror, and reassess their priorities for peets sake.
Phile:
“Today s liberal is inclined to sit back and expect the government to fix everything, during a crisis such as we are seeing.”
The government has a huge responsibility in times of crisis like this. Are you expecting provate citizens to relocate, house, feed and assist the 25,000 people in the Superdome? We can give money to the Red Cross and some of us can volunteer our time and training but someone needs to coordinate these efforts, maintain communications, move supplies and equiptment and a thousand other things that are beyond the means of even the most dedicated group of private citizens. You’re just talking out your ass to suggest that private citizens alone can handle a disaster that has cost thousands of lives and billions of dollars. Are private citizens supposed to impose price caps on gas or otherwise control gouging? Are private citizens supposed to stop looters on their own? Are private citizens supposed to get in their private helicopters and rescue people from their roofs? There’s a good one, how many conservative billionaires have put on their blue jeans and jumped in their corporate helicopters to rescue people? WTF fuck do we pay taxes for? Is it just to kill Iraqis? Because if it’s just to kill Iraqis just say so. Oh and the next time you need a levee fixed or a city drained on American soil do it yourself, sucker.
Tuco –
No one anywhere ever blamed Bush for an act of nature. There are many levels of response to any disaster. In the short term you give aid and comfor to those afflicted. For many of us, the full extent of our ability to help consists of sending money to the Red Cross or some other reliable relif organization. Eveyr liberal blog I read and I read a lot of them included some post expressing their hope and fears about the impending disaster. Most of them have posted links to their favorite Beyond these immediate initial responses there are longer term responses that must take into account public policy issues and how we can better deal with these situations in the future. Many people, on the left and right, after expressing there empathies and sending in there money, moved on to this longer term discussion because there was nothing else that they could do. At the very least discussing policy matters and public priorities gives one a sense of being involved and doing something. And then there’s you, who are here pissing on people for not caring enough, for not giving enough, as if you’re the holy righteous arbiter of such things. The bottom line is you and your fellow supporters of Bush have a lot to answer for given the disaster that this presidency has become. Maybe now was not the best time for this to come up but there you go. It’s time some people in this administration took some responsibility for what happens on their watch. Not for the natural disasters themselves (and I can’t believe I have to make that clear to you) but for their response to those disasters.
Somebody should count the times Tuco and phile have patted themselves on the back in this thread. Just like Jesus would have done! No doubt the citizens of New Orleans are happy that you’re out there on the line, trolling the liberal message boards in the name of decent humanitarianism.
“Conservatives tend to get involved and do what they can to help.”
Unless the words “Iraq” or “Terrorism” come up. Then it’s “let the neighbor kid do it!”
The only thing you cons are really good at is smearing your fellow Americans, kind of like you’re doing in that last post of yours. Keep it up!
“What I do see is outrage from the right, regarding the left s propensity for blaming Bush for just about everything.”
Phile –
Who cut the funding for levee repair and construction in 2003 and 2004? Who took FEMA and gutted it of funding, responsibility and experienced personnel (replacing them with political hack appointees)? Who started a war in Iraq and decided that an unprecedented mobilization of National Guard troops was the best way to fight it? Who is repsonsible for these things if not Bush? Why won’t you hold him accountable or responsible for anything?
Phile: “I really do not see any evidence of blamemongering coming from the right. What I do see is outrage from the right, regarding the left s propensity for blaming Bush for just about everything.”
You may not see any “blamemondering”, but that doesn’t mean the right is any better then the left.
Just look at the situation with Clinton or, more recently, look at the situation in Iraq/War on Terrorism. The right refuses to compromise (or have a rational discussion about the methodology used) and vice versa. It seems like the right is more interested in defending President Bush and the Republican Party then it is sitting down and working something out so both sides are happy – and the left did it too, back during the Clinton years/Impeachment.
(I don’t mean to single you out, you just happened to be the one to respond to my comment!)
Todd,
I really do not see any evidence of blamemongering coming from the right. What I do see is outrage from the right, regarding the left’s propensity for blaming Bush for just about everything.
I’m reposting this comment because it was originally held up because of the links it. I’ve taken em out.
Phile
Here s the broad categories of individual, private response: For those with the time and the training, there s direct involvement in the relief effort; for those without the time or the training, there is the cash donation to a responsible relief organization; and for those without the time, training or money (and even for those who have al three) there is prayer.
As for myself, the first place I went to donate what I could was the Red Cross. When the tsunami hit (and throughout the year for certain family birthdays) I gave money to Mercy Corps.
For those of us who cannot give our time, a link to a site is all we need to do all we can. If someone has time and training to get involved but doesn t know where to go, the Red Cross is still probably the best place to go as it is directly plugged into the major relief efforts. If a site has 100 links to choose from, most people will still only be able to donate money to one site, so pissing contests over who has the most links to the most charities on their sites is ludicrous.
I understand, however, where your frustration comes from. No doubt for those, like yourself, who supported Bush through the nation s worst terrorist attack, through what is rapidly becoming one of its most expensive foreign wars, through record gas prices, through the gutting of funds for the nation s infrastructure and now one of the most mismanaged disaster responses in recent memory, there is a great inner need to overcompensate for your misplaced faith. I recognize and understand the struggle that divides you. Could you really have been that wrong, that mislead? Denial is the natural first response. Give it time and slowly you will be able to accept your role in this nightmare of a presidency and come to terms with it. We will be waiting for you and we will forgive you. We are all Americans, afterall, and everyone makes mistakes. In the meantime, don t bring your righteousness here. You and other Bush supporters have a lot to answer for in voting for this failure of a man and a leader.
I would like to point out, boys and girls, that comparing how differing groups of sites are linking to donation sites is slightly less juvenile than comparing the sizes of our members in the locker room, and not nearly as entertaining.
Joseph, I am not concerned with who coined the term. You using it to described your way of thinking is nothing short of laughable.
Insufficient, not timely enough & maybe he should have mobilized rescue teams the day before the hurricane hit, so they could all just be standing there waiting to get annhililated in the storm. Kind of hard to respond to the wake of a natural disaster until the natural disaster has actually passed.
TomY – How much was cut from their budget? What was their budget when President Bush took office? What were their budget requests? How much would it have costed to build a levee that would withstand a Cat 4 hurricane? Cat 5? Would those absolutely or hopefully stop the water? What funding level were you crusading for prior to this disaster, or did you jump on this bandwagon after Kos told you to ?
Matty – I was going to attempt to respond to your post, but it is hard to come up with a response to a post that is so obviously devoid of reality. Suffice it to say that the job of ANY President of the United States, is NOT to do as you described. In fact, it would be incredibly stupendously irresponsible for ANY President of the United States to do so.
JD, you’re attacking a straw man. I’ve never said Bush’s levy defunding is definitely to blame, only that it very well might be. You, on the other hand, want to definitely let him off the hook without knowing any of the answers to that question. Why? Because when it comes to Bush, it’s always the same answer for you guys: Give the rich kid a pass.
frameone : Other than you on the left claiming that the response was inadequate, what evidence do you have of that? So far, the only evidence is the fact that you on the left claim it to be. I suppose that if you could show that they did not plan on getting potable water brought in after the storm had cleared, had not mobilized military resources, etc … you might have a point. However, it seems your point is that it was inadequate because the President did not show the requisite level of concern as required by you.
While you are at it, please show us a government construction project that would have been funded in 2003 and/or 2004 on the scale of the levee work that you are suggesting that could have been completed prior to this natural disaster. Despite you assertion that there are insufficient National Guardsmen available, that does not appear to be the position of the National Guard itself. Unbeknownst to you, members of the military can walk and chew gum at the same time.
TomY : I think if you looked at the evidence available, you would see that the funding requests were for additional work at Cat 3 level preparedness. Clearly, even a Cat 3 level of preparedness would have been insufficient for this natural disaster. Additionally, it looks like the studies alone that were requested for additional work would not have been scheduled to have been completed until 2008. How again is this President Bush’s fault ?
So the alternative to upgrading the levees so that they could effectively handle a Cat 3 surge is—- do nothing. Got it.
Kind of like the response to the 9/11 warnings- we can’t POSSIBLY know EXACTLY WHEN and WHERE the hijackers will attack, so we’re just going to go to Crawford and do nothing.
You wingnuts always come up with these false choices- in Iraq, it’s either “Stay the Course” or “Cut and Run”. Nothing in the middle, like setting a timetable for withdrawl.
Here we have “Since we can’t prepare for EVERYTHING that may happen, let’s do nothing.” That’s a false choice. Taking the steps suggested by ACE probably would have mitigated the tragedy, and maybe would eliminate the risks altogther. Rational people know that you can’t always safeguard people, but you do what you can hoping the steps you take help.
Instead of having a real discussion and investigation of what could have been done to better prepare for this disaster, and therefore the next disaster, the wingnuts Make Excuses for Bush first.
I’m hesistant to accuse you of deliberately misunderstanding my remarks. Of course, the federal and state governments have huge roles and responsibilites, in dealing with this crisis. I never implied otherwise. My point was, and is, that no matter the level of government involvement, crises as huge as this require everyone to pitch in. What I have seen from the left blogosphere is pitiful. It’s mostly just whining, bitching, and finding ways to blame Bush and his administration for all this misery. What I see from the right side of the blogosphere is a huge effort to get help to the affected areas.
As for this new talking-point on levee funding: I’m still waiting for someone to explain what the cut in funding would have done to help avoid what we are seeing today. What contigency projects – that would have enabled the levee to breeze through the strom surge cause by a cat 4 or 5 hurricane – were not done as a result of lack of funds? I hear a lot of talk about cutting funds, but I hear no engineers screaming about how they had the solution, but no money to implement it.
“My point was, and is, that no matter the level of government involvement, crises as huge as this require everyone to pitch in.”
Phile, might I ask you if you feel that whining and bitching about the left’s whining and bitching is an appropriate use of your own time in this crisis? At the same time, I live and work full time in Los Angeles. I’ve given as much money as I can afford and will give more again when I can. What else do you want me to do?
And neocon has it right. Between do something to improve the quality of the levees and hindering that effort, Bush chose to hinder it. It’s that simple.
“What I see from the right side of the blogosphere is a huge effort to get help to the affected areas.”
And I’ve seen blogs on the left and the right posting links to relief agencies and other assistance. FEMA itself has a website that’s pretty much one stop shopping for federal disaster relief. What’s missing? The fact that 25,000 people in the superdome don’t have internet access. Is anyone bringing WiFi laptops to the Superdome (as if the networks were still up) so all these people can get access to blogs? I heard a story on NPR about a HAM radio operator in Kansas who was helping direct rescue information in New Orleans, literally communicating where people were to rescue helicopters. Can a blog help if someone doesn’t have an internet connection? Of course people could always loot a laptop along with food and water. Then again, that would get Sean HAnnity on their ass.
I don t think anyone anticipated the breach of the levees.
-George W. Bush, Sept 1, 2005
This is the end for George W. Bush.
Pray tell exactly how this will be the end of his Presidency. Is there going to be a coup? Recall? Impeachment? Resignation?
It is less than 72 hours after one of the largest, if not the largest natrual disasters in our nation’s history, yet you have no compunction about assessing blame.
This is the end for George W. Bush.
Wait ’til Rove and crew spin it. I can see it now: ‘It was good the levees failed. Levees hate our freedoms. Levee sounds French.’
What else is there to say? Explain to me how funding for a STUDY scheduled to be completed 3 freaking years from now, would have changed one single thing that happened in this disaster.
It is less than 72 hours after one of the largest, if not the largest natrual disasters in our nation s history, yet you have no compunction about completely absolving the president. And in this case, the president has been stripping levee funding. What else is there to say?
Explain to me how you are so certain that none of Bush’s spending cuts had any effect on the situation.
I think there will be Republican in both House and Senate who will start to distance themselves from Idiot Bush for his failure to lead this country in time of disaster. That man needs to be removed from his post.
Another sad day… week in the history of the United States.
I think EricBrian’s post exemplifies quite well what many on the right suspect about the left. This is a sad day, a sad week for America. It is sad because hundreds and thousands and even millions of our brothers, sisters, mothers, father, etc… were the victims of one the largest natural disasters to hit the US in our history. However, folks like EricBrian think it is sad because of a perceived lack of leadership on behalf of the President, rather than because of the human toll this natural disaster has taken. It is becoming even more sad that a time like this, we cannot all find a way to work together.
Let me see … apparently we will have to break this down into really simple terms for you to be able to comprehend it. Army Corps of Engineers requests funding for a STUDY in 2003-2004, that would not have been completed for another 3 years, in the future, ya know. Then, a catastrophic storm hits the area that the study would have covered. Since the study was not yet due to be completed for another 3 years, it is safe to assume that the conclusion, and action on the conclusions, would not have started until at least 2008, three years into the future. It is also safe to assume that if they were planning on reinforcing, rebuilding, or otherwise upgrading the existing system, it would be a fairly significant undertaking, and would not be completed immediately. On a good, old fashioned government timetable, being quite generous, let us assume that all of the hypothetical improvements, reinforcements, etc … were completed in 2 years. That would be 2010, 5 years into the future. Maybe I am missing something, but I fail to see how a project, than in a best case scenario would have been completed sometime in 2010, could have helped save one life in 2005.
While they are at in, I think they should make all levees able to withstand a direct impact of a Cat 9 hurricane. After all, though it has not happend yet, one might conceive of it happening in the future.
Do you really believe that it is government’s job to act for the worst case scenario, or would taking actions based on the most likely or probable scenario be more appropriate?
JD you are truly a deadender:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050901/pl_nm/weather_katrina_funding_dc
The former head of the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the agency that handles the infrastructure of the nation’s waterways, said the damage in New Orleans probably would have been much less extensive had flood-control efforts been fully funded over the years.
“Levees would have been higher, levees would have been bigger, there would have been other pumps put in,” said Mike Parker, a former Mississippi congressman who headed the engineering agency from 2001 to 2002.
“I’m not saying it would have been totally alleviated but it would have been less than the damage that we have got now.”
>>You frigging people are more transparent than a sheet of plastic wrap.
Hmmm….I have seen plastic wrap that’s kind of tough to see through, Jay.
Generally acknowledged, that George W. Bush is the least intelligent, most incompetent President in our lifetime, I will admit there is nothing that George W. Bush could have done to prevent Mother Nature’s fury this past week.
It isn’t very productive at this stage to play the blame game. People need help.
I love a good scrap. This ain’t the time.
JK
“This ain t the time.”
Okay, Jk. Please inform us when it’s okay to criticize Bush.
I mean god forbid anyone should put some pressure on the president to actually come up with a fucking plan to deal with this nightmare.
>>Okay, Jk. Please inform us when it s okay to criticize Bush.
Three posts above this one, you’re not criticizing Bush in the immediate aftermath of the storm and (what I think, at least) for an obvious lack of a quick federal response, you’re talking about “what might have been.”
This morning, the Mayor of New Orleans laid into the Fed’s for lack of response. He’s furious. Rightfully so, IMO. The Fed’s have been remarkably absent 5 days into this disaster.
It’s just not productive to talk about what happened three friggin’ years ago, is all I’m saying. There will be a time for that.
JK
frameone, don’t listen to JK, it is alway OK to criticize Bush and others as incompetent as that might spur them on to actually get something done.