You are wrong about Rumsfeld. He was a Navy pilot. Now who are those “many” who never served?

And on religion you seem mixed up. A person’s “motivation” for doing something may come from anywhere: religion, aging hippie college instructors, new age gurus, whatever. In fact, there is generally a motivation for everything a politician does. There are rules establishing a wall between church and state in terms of laws etc, but those rules have NOTHING to do with motivation. Sort it out. Democrats meet Sharpton and JJ, repubs with the polar opposites. All legal.

And no. I don’t believe corporations own the government. I could have voted for Nader or whoever. Corporations are very important because they create millions of jobs and make the economic wheels turn. That doesn’t equal ownership. Corporations also die. Simialr to corporations, conservatives could be paranoid about colleges (overwhelmingly liberal) wherein all of our leaders come from.

Dugger (notice no name calling)

I don’t think so, and I don’t think you would say so either. That Slate article was taking positions from over 10 years ago, comparing them with things Kerry’d done recently, and declared that he changed his position every week. Sloppy editorializing.

Situations change. Bush changed his stances faster than Kerry did.

It s a smear when he didn t flip flop.

Oh, so he stayed consistent?!? (just one of MANY links. I would lay them all out but sentient people realize just how laughable Oliver’s assertion is.)

Honestly, you keep pushing that tripe and the Democratic Party will become extinct faster than you can say “Bull Moose”.

Those are quite good examples, I think.

Calling Kerry a flip-flopper is hardly a “smear”. An attack, sure. But smear ? Nahhh.
Calling Republicans “liars and thieves” is a smear.

JK

May we then assume that every nasty remark made about Bush anyplace is directly attributable to Kerry? Cynthia McKinney is a Democrat. Why didn’t Kerry do something about her? Or maybe you do believe Bush had prior warning re 9-11 and ignored it. Her D daddy sees a problem with J-E-W-S. Where was Kerry, JK, ol’ bud, on that one? How do you like your silly standard, now?

pionar,

All bad arguments.

The last chickenhawk (to use your surly term) I can remember in the chain of command is Bill Clinton. Who are you referring to now? I have already explained that obviously, since the military votes Republican, that there are then more (MORE, THAT IS) Republicans than Democrats out there doing their patriotic duty. Yet 27 Democrat senators. How come those bad Democrats vote for war and then expect a Republican military to fight it, Pionar?

Corporations don’t own the government. The American people do. We vote. We elected Bush twice. If your side made more sensible arguments you would be in power and your politicians would be dealing corporations (like, ahem, Hughes).

Where do you get it that religious beliefs are a factor in establishing federal policy? People can believe and act on any basis they see fit. that action is legal or illegal. A far right winger might be voted by some reliogious nonsense, a far left winger by some outmoded 19th century garbage social theory. As a motivation, either is legal.

The day is too long to respond to the rest of your litany.

Dugger

We re tired of having chickenhawks run our military.

I know. It’s been 13 years…

I think of this administration when I see that sign.

Fine for the Democrats to all become little Kucinichs (sorry, thats redundant), but they will NOT sway the American people by calling for unilateral withdrawal from Iraq.

I disagree. It’s what people want. We’re tired of it. We’re tired of this little experiment in democracy that has done far more harm than good. We’re tired of our valiant young men and women dying for a war that we didn’t need to fight in a country that can’t get its act straight for a cause that keeps changing. We’re tired of having a president tell us one thing when he really means another. We’re tired of constantly having shady deals made behind the backs of the American people. We’re tired of not seeing any light at the end of the tunnel. We’re tired of American businesses getting rich off this war. We’re tired of having chickenhawks run our military. We’re tired of having to wake up with this reality of half the world hating us because of stupid things our president does. We’re tired of corporations owning our government and having carte blanche to dirty our air as much as they want and pollute our water as much as they want. We’re tired of being told our economy is stronger now than during the previous administration when the evidence doesn’t back it up. We’re tired of having arbitrary religious beliefs be a deciding factor in federal policy when not even a majority of our people attend regular church services (recent surveys put the figure at 46%). We’re tired of this president not telling us what we deserve to know, things like who made up our energy policies and why are we giving no-bid contracts to large multinational conglomerates who are being investigated for bribery by our own government when smaller, pro-American businesses can do a better job. We’re tired of our president speaking of the need to sacrifice something for the war then driving off in an entourage consisting of no less than five Ford Excursions. We’re tired of a president that speaks of having a good environment then caves to car manufacturers and energy companies at every opportunity. We’re tired of a president that thinks that we don’t have to abide by treaties. We’re tired of a president that considers Pat Robertson a close friend. We’re tired of being scared. We’re tired of our president taking a month-long vacation when there’s a war going on. We’re tired of being kept in the dark about decisions that affect our day-to-day lives. We’re tired of a president that’s a fake rancher, a fake texan, a fake environmentalist, and a fake samaritan.

America’s tired. We want to rest. We want to be friends with the world again.

It isn t understanding the insurgents…

Karl Rove was Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If he truly honors the service of American troops in battle, he would have stopped those attacks.

Brilliant! Bush would have “honored the service of American troops” by telling 200 of them they didn’t have the right to speak up during an election.

Killing terrorists isn’t a positive message? It’s defeatist to say our soldiers shouldn’t keep dying in Iraq in order to create a new Islamic republic? Up is down and down is up with you guys.

And saying “I don t actually represent the policy you say I do.”? Pot. Kettle. Black.

Somehow Dugger I don’t think you have the best interests of the Democratic party in your heart.

What election were you watching? Just because it didin’t come out of the dumb bastard’s mouth doesn’t mean he didn’t quietly “endorse” what those Swift Boat retentive’s were up to.

I said it then, I say it now….Bush could have stopped those attacks. If he truly honors the service of American troops in battle, he would have stopped those attacks.

Dugger..for a guy (girl? I don’t know your gender) that says an awful lot….well, let’s just say you’d do yourself a favor if you’d stop speaking out of both sides of your mouth.

JK

BTW, Bush didn’t smear Kerry.

Dugger

Bush’s “plan” was to invade Iraq, and ask questions later. Now, he’s got this country in what one GOP Senator publicly worried was another “Vietnam.” He’s going to have to live with himself for the rest of his life, with the blood of thousands of American troops on HIS hands, and his hands alone, as far as I’m concerned. A man who can’t admit he made a mistake, and respond accordingly, is not a man I want running my country. Especially during a time of war.

If he had been a smarter, genuine, battle-tested soul like his father, a discerning policy wonk like Bill Clinton, or even a “street smart” no BS politician in the mold of say..Harry Truman, we wouldn’t be in this mess. As George Will said back in 2000…we risked electing a frat boy. We got the frat boy…and now, soldiers are dying because we don’t have a leader at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

That is what we lack. Not just a plan to end the war, but a strong leader that can advocate intelligently to do the right, moral and responsible thing. If you don’t have the right leadership in place, change is nearly impossible.

This whole things is degrading into another Vietnam, and Bush is in denial, telling us all that we need to keep up the fight against the enemy. Not at all having learned the most horrible lessons that history should teach us.

Because of the utter incompetence of this administration, our conception of who the real “enemy” really is, has become so diluted as to be hardly recognizable. That to me, may really be the most dangerous turn in the path that George W. Bush has taken us on.

It sounds to me that you would not be open to any opposing solution to the mess, so long as it came from a Democrat. So be it.

I’ll agree with you on one thing, though…I’ll be damn angry if they don’t step up to the plate here, and offer America real strategy for an end to this war.

JK

Step one: we should leave Iraq in a timely fashion, and dedicate resources to killing terrorists. Is that clear enough?

Dugger

He’s spending too much money.
He’s got his troops pinned down in a distant, foreign adventure.

But…, he’s tough. Credit where credit is due. He’s tough.

1. He’s the next John F. Kennedy!!!

2. We’re against everything George W. Bush is for.

3. Let’s go back to the 1990’s “law enforcement” strategy for terrorism containment.

4. Let’s go back to the 1970’s-80’s appeasement/negotiation strategy for placating terrorists.

I’m no Democrat and I’ve never been one. But at least I would like to see a good candidate with a fresh, realistic set of ideas who could debate them honestly with a Republican opponent.

John Kerry was an utter failure in all of these regards – he was a 1970’s Vietnam protester, ineffectively retrofitted into a completely awkward “war hero” by the very same people who had spent the last 30 years denegrating and impugning his “war.” He had a miasma of “plans” but couldn’t explain any of them, save for assuring us that they were not what the current administration was doing.

Unfortunately, most of today’s younger Democrats have focused their entire energy on knee-jerk opposition to any plan that the Republicans or the US Military puts into action. They have yet to come up with anything other than “Bush was wrong” or a retread of 70’s or 80’s foreign or domestic policies. And zilch in the way of strategic military planning.

Democrats have lined up behind the microphone to say “I voted for the Iraq war because I trusted the President, but I never would have voted for it had I known that it would turn out like this.” That’s the most idiotic and meaningless statement a politician can make, period. It is completely worthless because the Democrats offered nothing as a counter-proposal, offered no plans, offered no goals, offered no timetable, offered no objectives, offered no contingencies — in short, they had no better ideas at the time. And now they want the priviledge of 20/20 hindsight just so they can say how “right” they were? Give me a freaking break.

Unless the Democrats can come up with a real strategy — military objectives, timelines, goals, deployment plans, civilian casualty estimates, military casualty estimates ( or a law enforcement strategy, or a netogiation strategy, whatever) — and make it public, and allow debate and deconstruction and analysis of their plan, then they are in no position to be trusted with national security or military planning. And they are in no position to say that Bush doesn’t have a plan or that the Pentagon doesn’t know what they are doing.

Unless they are willing to really stick their necks out and prove to us that they are as smart as they think they are, and that their plans are superior, then they are not worthy of leading.