When the blogosphere’s equivalent of a klan rally (evidence here) disagrees with me about what I wrote, I certainly know I’m on the right side of history.
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You display such brilliant logic, Oliver.
Want another Filet-O-Fish?
Brandon, your comment dispays brilliant logic as well. Now if it only had a point…
UBL is in the Hindu Kush.
Why are we not there now. In force. With the United States Army. Not the “Coalition Forces.” Us.
But, uh oh. The Pakis have teh bomb. Boo hoo hoo.And the Saudis might get mad. OMFG! Run Away!
”Clevinger sat for a moment as though he’d been slapped. ‘Congratulations!’ he exclaimed bitterly… ‘I can’t think of another attitude that could be dependent upon to give greater comfort to the enemy.’
‘The enemy,’ resorted Yossarian with weighted precision, ‘is anybody who’s going to get you killed, no matter which side he’s on, and that includes Colonel Cathcart. And don’t you forget that, because the longer you remember it, the longer you might live.’”
johnny: Don’t challenge him to think. Brandon’s kind doesn’t do that all too well.
Stop Making Sense! Surely you know you’d get them rattled Oliver. The response is typical.
Made a mistake on the post:
Let’s follow the logic: The commenters at LGF make anti – Islamic remarks.
That makes the blog a “klan rally”.
They indicate that Oliver is wrong. This is called “disagreeing with him”.
Since Oliver is never wrong, all who disagree with him are wrong.
That puts him on the right side of history.
Talk about arrogance, revisionism and smearing stereotyping rolled into one.
No, Frank, LGF is a racist site. Run by bigots and populated by same. When a site refers to races on people as “vermin,” “sub-humans” and the like and then joyfully advocates “extermination” and “genocide”–there’s no escaping the fact it’s a racist site.
Now, you attempt to make a fine distinction by saying the commenters make these racist remarks. It’s a tired, old argument for several reasons; one, LGF is moderated with a heavy hand. That is, if a lefty commented that the war in Iraq was being fought on the basis of lies–that lefty would be gone. Second, how is it that LGF seems to attract so many racist commenters? Can we draw some logical conclusions as to why so many bigots seem to congregate at a certain site? Again, this goes back to the first point, if the owners of LGF object to blatantly racist remarks–why don’t they say so? Why is it anti-war commenters are moderated but overtly racist ones are not?
To simplify, for our conservative brethren: if 1) LGF moderates the comments to make sure no-one comments outside the LGF Partei line and 2) the REMAINING comments are racists, what conclusion(s) can be reached?
Frank? Anyone else?
Let me do it for you, so you don’t strain yourselves: LGF supports racist comments.
Second point Jadegold made:
If 1) there are tons of racist comments on LGF and 2) LGF does nothing to discourage those comments, then what conclusion(s) can be reached?
Easy: LGF condones racism. And the racist contingent is attracted to *something* on LGF, it seems.
Let’s suppose you are both correct. [Note to Grubi: One doesn't simplification for the remarks of a simpleton.]
Any comments on this?
Since when is radical Islam a race?
One doesn t simplification for the remarks of a simpleton.
One tends to use English if they expect to be understood. I guess that’s not a burden you face, eh, buddy?
And to address your remarks:
They indicate that Oliver is wrong.
Do they simply indicate he is wrong, or is there more to it? Where are the remarks that simply and plainly say something along the lines of “Hey, Oliver — you got it wrong” or “OW: you’re mistaken.”?
Or is it more likely that the remarks went something like this:
that pile of crap.
That was truly lame. What a loser.
he is by far the ugliest of any blogger, lefty or righty.
Oh, they didn’t go *something* like that; those are some of the “disagreement” remarks. Nice discourse.
And the remark OW made about “klan rally” had to do with remarks such as:
“It is now time to force muslims to make a choice: Live peacefully or die. I prefer the latter.”
“We need to stop fucking with these people and kill every one involved. I mean anyone with prior knowledge, anyone who payed for it, and anyone who supported it. Regardless of nationality.”
“subhumans, first time on 2 feet…round em all up, every friggin’ last one of them…unfortunately, I still think it will take even more violence from the Arabs before the West wakes up and goes savage on em”
But, noooo, “subhumans” = “Klan rally”? How *could* he?
Easy. He’s paying attention.
Grubi: Exactly right- the commenters over at LGF can spew all the hatred they want, yet Oliver’s response of referring to their comments section as a klan rally is the one that invokes anger from the resident right-of-centers here.
Frank- Oliver wrote 2 1/2 lines and from that you were able to extrapolate that he believes he is never wrong, that all who disagree with him are wrong, and that he is a revisionist. That’s talent. If you want my take on it, it seems Oliver takes comfort in knowing that the people who think all Muslims should be killed (not just the terrorists, as some of these comments have proved), don’t like what he has to say.
If Frank managed to extrapolate all that, wouldn’t that make HIM the revisionist?
Wow, all the prejudice on LGF…. It’s sickening.
What’s more interesting is that he ignored all the people on his own thread who took him to task for his psycho rant…
kfd: The prejudice on LGF is quite understandable. Radical Muslims are killing people around the globe, and with the exception of a few, no other Muslims seem concerned.
Didn’t all you anti – LGF people say that if he tolerates racial prejudice, he is running a racist blog? What do you say about a religion that barely gives lip service to criticizing incredible violence?
Racism is “quite understandable”?
Wow.
Jesus, people.
I’ve read through almost all the comments here and on The Right Hates Freedom & America. Take a look at some of these gems:
“Oliver, ignore the wingnuts. Their minds are a wash of bilious tepid ignorance utterly lacking creativity or love.” – Konch
“A hate filled rant from a small closed minded person. This should not come as a suprise, but yet I never cease to be amazed at the hatred the left has for their political opponents.” – JD
This one, though, is my favorite:
“Because, deep down in places you don t like to talk about it is hard to control your hate for Democrats, Clinton, Hillary, government, homosexuals, minorities, foreigners, the homeless, the poor, professors and women s rights just to name the big ones. All the things and people that you can t control you wish to destroy. Now don t waste your time writing responses denying all those things or stating how stupid or full of crap I am, spend that time thinking about how I just summed up your entire ideology and existence.” – Sooperedd
Please forgive a naive and idealistic question…but, since a great many of you are trying to piss each other off, why not just do it efficiently?
Observe:
[insert name] masturbates to news of Iraqi deaths. Prick.
[insert name], fuckyoufuckyoufuckyoufuckyou.
(”What…that little rant didn’t change your mind? Well, fuck you. How about now? Is your mind changed?”)
See, it’s that easy, and then you don’t have to back up your anger with evidence.
Call me crazy, but it seems to me that the easiest way to piss people off in a political debate is to assume they’re idiots because of any of the following reasons:
1) You don’t agree with me (and you obviously should, because you have access to all the information than I do).
2) Your opinion is stupid, just like you (and I totally and completely understand your opinion, even though I’ve only heard it expressed through people who disagree with you).
3) You voted a certain way, and therefore you (pick one) (hate homosexuals / want to bomb brown people – with props to George Carlin).
I’m of the opinion that one thing, and one thing alone, will destroy this country if anything does: angry, incomplete opinions, given strength by other angry and ill-informed attacks. That later turn to hate.
Oliver, Jadegold, grubi – did any of you bother to ask LGF what the rules for posting comments are before you assumed it was a racist site? Did you check all of the nearly eight hundred comments before making this conclusion? I’d bet if you asked LGF what the rules were, you would have gotten a response something like this:
No pr0nographic pictures. And no advertising.
That’s it. They don’t censor anything else, for the most part. They could be racist. Or lazy. Or just not care what their commentors post, both the ones bashing and the ones defending Islam.
Point is, anger like this is just Mental Masturbation – sure, it can be gratifying, but it just pisses off the opposition, and no one really wants to see it. Or at least I don’t.
So maybe I shouldn’t read it. But I was kind of hoping to find some intelligent discussion here – angry discussion, too, but the anger that doesn’t seek to eviscerate his opponent so much as disarm him.
Yes, it is. There, I said it. Now what, dipstick?
Really says it all about the morals of conservatives in this country.
What is more reprehensible, condoning a vicious and violent racism as understandable or posting about things with minimal understanding as an hobby?
On another thread today Frank s challenge was to provide evidence that Fallwell was pro-segregationist. When precisely such evidence showed Fallwell a segregationist, starting all-white schools, addressing segregation rallies, and supporting Apartheid because it was a bulwark of Christianity, well, somehow the subject changed.
On this thread, Frank proclaims that racism is understandable what, exactly does he mean by this?? The context he provides is about a reaction to Muslims: Is Frank condoning or endorsing Muslim-bashing as a response to London? It seems so because, among other things, he repeats the preposterous claim that only a few Muslims have responded with criticism. Before he asks for evidence, I am providing a couple of cites that show a far more complicated Muslim response and story.
Muslims across the United States are denouncing the bombing of London’s transit system
(http://www.c-n.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050709/NEWS/507090324)
In Britain, Muslims across Britain prayed for the victims of the London bombings blamed on radical Islamists. From the article cited below: These acts were aimed at destroying the work of Muslims and Muslim groups in Britain. We want to integrate with the (British) community, and not to live like foreigners. (http://www.thepeninsulaqatar.com/Display_news.asp?section=World_News&subsection=United+Kingdom+%26+Europe&month=July2005&file=World_News200507093053.xml)
My point is not to rise to the defense of African-Americans, South African, or Muslims; rather, I am calling out those who seem to need simple generalities that rely on racism.
Actually, Frank, you did not say that Racism is quite understandable, you said that prejudice is. And, with regards to religion, you are quite correct.
Racial prejudice is wrong because it is both illogical and unfair; there is no reliable evidence that race affects behavior, so it is unfair to make pre-judgements about a person on the basis of race alone.
Religion is a different matter altogether, as it provides the moral framework for it followers, and thus has a huge impact on their behavior.
Prejudice on the basis of religion can be both logical and fair.
Logical and fair? Not when the prejudice we’re discussing is the one that says “kill all the Muslims.” Oliver’s right when he says that some conservatives have no commitment to America’s values.
Prejudice (I said “prejudice” — you said ‘racism’) is always understandable, by people who understand it, and condemned by self – righteous phonies, who falsely think themselves above it.
People on the Left exhibit prejudice and intolerance all the time, but only seem to notice the inolerance and the prejudices of the right.
For the left, there is no call to action, because there is no acceptance of personal responsibility. There is only the pretense to moral superiority.
If not wishing for genocide makes us self-righteous, well, that’s just a price us liberals will have to pay, you sad little nazi. I wonder if there’s ever been any — *ANY* — ethnic cleansing, genocide, communal violence, or lynching in which the perpetrators did not say of the victims “they brought it on themselves.” It is truly a tragedy how the right wing constantly preaches the virtues of liberal, western democracy, and yet is so quick to throw those values away.
“Call me a cynic.”
Coward and facist is more to the point.
TomY: What am I supposed to about being called a “coward”? Meet you outside the saloon at high noon?
Stop being an idiot. I am not required, or even predisposed to “condemn” what you call racism, nor will I.
As to what God only knows, you are correct. God only knows. You and JadeGold have been flaming Dobson with impugnity all day. No evidence, no links, no background, just hate, hate, hate, all day long.
You called me a fascist. I know what that means to a liberal. You have called me the worst thing a liberal can call someone.
Evidence = none.
You are prejudiced.
You are bigoted.
You are a hypocrite.
You are self – righteous.
And now, I will call you the worst thing I can call somebody: You are an American Liberal.
Going back over this, I do disagree witih a portion of your initial post. You wrote, “Yet, it is now abundantly clear that George W. Bush, the Republican Party, and their supporters simply do not care about fighting the terrorist threat in any real way.”
With Bush and the Republican leadership, it is debatable whether it is a case of them not caring about fighting the terrorist threat or a case of extreme incompetence. With their supporters, I don’t think this is really true of most.
Most Republican voters do care about fighting the terrorist threat. The problems are that they are ignorant of how Republicans politicians had hampered attempts at fighting terrorism before 9/11 (most likely due to not appreciating the problem), and that most Republican supporters accept the current GOP claims tying the invasion of Iraq to the war on terror.
Terry Schiavo is the model here. In the Schiavo case they invented their own medical facts to claim she was not in a persistent vegitative state to justify their policy goals. Similarly they have a whole body of facts on the history of terrorism being spread which differ from reality.
Still nothing to say about your loathesome brothers in arms calling for the death of all Muslims and Arabs. Yes, that is racism. And yes, you are too cowardly to condemn it even on a liberal message board. God only knows what you say to fellow conservatives. Thank you for so clearly exposing the utter moral bankruptcy at the heart of today’s conservatives.
Not to mention that you and Scott are simply lying when you say this is just about Muslims. Many of the quotes simply say ‘Arab’, which you may be interested to learn is an ethnic group, not a religion.
I think Oliver should do a round up of all the conservative nutjob site’s reactions to the bombings. Anyone read what Instapundit-approved Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler’s been saying lately? Though I must say the facists have made it easy to find choice statements from the lunatic fringe easy to find tonight, at least on this message board. Go back to Stormfront.
Call me a cynic, but those condemnations have been a long time coming…
They refer to the British bombings, and the story seems to be, “Don’t hurt us! Don’t hurt us! We’re condemning, we’re condemning!
Find me some similar statements about the United States, except for the Muslims against Terrorism, who just got rolling this year, and I’ll admit I was wrong.
At least the Muslims against Terrorism, aren’t just covering their own asses.
CAIR waited until 2004
Where were they in 2002 and 2003?
Finally, how’s this => for prejudice against an enemy?
Oh, and TomY:
Really says it all about the morals of conservatives in this country.
I missed this one. To what are you referring, that could possibly encompass all conservatives?
“And now, I will call you the worst thing I can call somebody: You are an American Liberal.”
What a terrible thing.
To the modern conservatives it is terrible to be a liberal. We know how much they oppose values such as individual liberty, the free market (as opposed to the corporate welfare system they claim to be capitalism), freedom of religion, government transparency, and fighting terrorism (rather than using terrorist attacks as an excuse to pursue their other foreigh policy objectives).
Also,to be clear, ScottFree was defending not just a prejudice against, say, Islamic fundamentalists or fanatics, but ALL MUSLIMS, as part of a call to kill them. And anyway, the point is irrelevant, because many of those statements were calling for the death of all Arabs, not just Muslims, so Scott’s attempt to weasel out of the race-based genocide of Arabs failed pathetically.
I wonder how long itwould take to find enthusiastic calls for genocide on freerepublic.com?
Conservatives call for the death of all Muslims, and all you can do is wave your hands about liberals, without so much as a peep about right wingers who are literally pro-genocide. By all means, keep showing us what you are made of.
And now, I will call you the worst thing I can call somebody: You are an American Liberal.
You have shown how unhinged youve become, when the worst thing you can call someone is a label that can be applied to 20-25% of the population. I don’t agree with conservatives on many issues, but I would never go as far as to say, “The worst thing I can call you is a conservative.” I would probably start with murderer, rapist, theif, etc.
Not all conservatives, just some of them, the ones who are too weak to argue against genocidal racism. I wonder how popular LGF is, exactly? Is it among the top 10 conservative blogs? I wonder how many of the top ten conservatives blogs are for the death of all Muslims and Arabs? Is one too many?
Scott Free -
(For the record, I’m not a Christian, but used to be.)
Religion is a different matter altogether, as it provides the moral framework for it followers, and thus has a huge impact on their behavior.
Prejudice on the basis of religion can be both logical and fair.
It’s a little more complicated. American Christian and Eastern Christian are so different as to make them nearly incomprehensible to each other (I’ve seen them debate each other – usually ends with one or the other saying, “are you on crack?”). The differences are regional, though – Orthodox Christians, or at least the theologians, think like ancient Grecians. American Protestants think like 17th century Germans. Or, for a far more striking example, American Muslim vs. Al Qaeda, or Conservative American Jew vs. Zionist.
Neither prejudice is okay unless you’re getting someone’s beliefs straight from their mouth.
Any person with an ounce of moral backbone can say: I oppose the genocide of Arabs and Muslims. Can you say that, Frank? Scott? Jay? Again, your silence speaks elequently for contemporary conservatism.
“Show me where Charles Johnson called for the death of all Muslims and/or Arabs”
Go to LGF and argue that, in fact, it is wrong to advocate the death of all Muslims and you will be banned. Do you have the courage to stick up for Western democracy by opposing genocide? Charles Johnson doesn’t.
Commenters on LGF variously called for the death of all muslims and all arabs. Did you read them, Jay C? They’re linked above. Not only were they not called out in the LGF thread, but when they’re called out here, people like you, Frank, Scott, defend them. So at the very least, you are cowards for not condemning that sort of evil, unamerican rhetoric. At worst, you are facists for supporting it. Nowhere did I attribute this to all conservatives, but given the number of trolls on this board alone, there seems to be an alarming number of conservatives here who lack the basic humanity to say “genocide against Arabs” is wrong. And again, the quotes we’re talking about sometimes say “kill all the muslims” and sometimes say “kill all the arabs,” so yes, the racism charge is completely justified, Scott. When are you people going to grow souls, I wonder; or at least learn the basic values of western civilization?
Show me where Charles Johnson called for the death of all Muslims and/or Arabs? Why would somebody who wants all Muslims dead, also want all Arabs dead? It doesn t make much sense. One is a religion, the other is a race. There are Christian and Jewish Arabs.
Oy. Its been mentioned in this thread that the comments section of LGF is where one can find these disgusting remarks. And since the moderators purge dissenting comments yet leave the ones which call for genocide, it could be said they condone this rhetoric. And yes, your exactly right that it doesn’t make sense to call for the deaths of all Arabs, since there are Christian and Jewish Arabs. But don’t fault us for not making this distinction:
So I guess that means your done defending them?
Tom Y jabbered:
Also,to be clear, ScottFree was defending not just a prejudice against, say, Islamic fundamentalists or fanatics, but ALL MUSLIMS, as part of a call to kill them. And anyway, the point is irrelevant, because many of those statements were calling for the death of all Arabs, not just Muslims, so Scott s attempt to weasel out of the race-based genocide of Arabs failed pathetically.
I visit web sites on both sides of the political divide, including LGF. I have never seen any post on LGF suggesting that Arab Christians should be killed for the crimes of Arab Muslims, so the racist charge is completely unjustified.
Conservatives call for the death of all Muslims, and all you can do is wave your hands about liberals
Evidence?
Oh wait. You change your tune a little further down:
Not all conservatives, just some of them, the ones who are too weak to argue against genocidal racism.
Where? Who?
I wonder how popular LGF is, exactly? Is it among the top 10 conservative blogs? I wonder how many of the top ten conservatives blogs are for the death of all Muslims and Arabs? Is one too many?
Show me where Charles Johnson called for the death of all Muslims and/or Arabs? Why would somebody who wants all Muslims dead, also want all Arabs dead? It doesn’t make much sense. One is a religion, the other is a race. There are Christian and Jewish Arabs.
And where are these “enthusiastic calls for genocide” you’re blabbering about?
Because Frank, Scott, and Jay do not denounce something, that means contemporary conservatism as a whole are in favor of it ? Give me a freaking break …
TomY: I oppose the genocide of Arabs and / or Muslims — as if that might ever realistically occur.
Now, f*ck you and the horse that rode in on you.
“I oppose the genocide…”
Yeah, but your first impulse was defend the people who called for it, and even when you were backed into a corner and admitted that genocide is wrong, you still tried to weasel out of it by claiming its not a “realistic” scenario, as though that has anything to do with whether it’s, you know, *evil* or not. But at least it’s all there in print, to refer back to whenever anyone wonders whether Frank D has a spine or a conscience. Thanks, buddy!
“that means contemporary conservatism as a whole are in favor of it ”
Yeah, JD, it is a problem for conservativism generally that so many conservatives are also crazy racists and bigots, and the rest give them a pass on it. We’re not talking about a tiny website; LGF is like the 4th biggest conservative site on the web, and it is tolerant of exhortations to “kill all Muslims and Arabs.” We bring it up here, and the resident trolls’ first reaction is to defend “prejudice against religion.” Somehow I don’t think that would be their reaction if someone said that all the Jews should be killed — on the basis of religion, not ethnicity, naturally. I also doubt that, were someone to call for the extermination of the Jews, Frank’s first reaction would be “yeah, as if *that* could ever realistically happen.” Ultimately, it betrays the contempt for basic individual rights that so many conservatives have — it’s all right out the window when it comes to people you don’t like.
TomY, I don’t play stupid games like that. The “if you don’t condemn it, you condone it” tactic is third grade nonsense. I certainly don’t need to do it just so some anonymous clown on the Internet will be satisfied.
And I’ve read in this threat that Charles Johnson himself is a racist and that his blog is run and managed by racists. That’s nonsense. In addition, the virulently racist comments are often denounced by regulars who are there to discuss the issues that CJ writes about, but I don’t see anybody talking about that.
I’ve seen a good deal of hateful comments at Atrios and Kos’s blogs as well as other liberal blogs like Pandagon. I won’t even start in on sites like Indymedia which are filled with loons of the highest order. Is it fair to classify them as hate sites because of it?
In addition, I read dissenting comments and opinions at LGF all the time. I think this whole, “I’ve been banned” meme is something that has been spread around as truth simply so people can justify their own opinions about LGF.
I oppose all genocide, even that advocated by hose who agree w/me politically. In additon, I condemn all true racism and all truely racist comments. I support beagle puppies, s-mores, and Zeke roasting potatoes in the leaf fire. Yes LGF posters cam sometimes go over the line, but mostly I am encouraged by the strong reaction on this site to the horrific crime committed by veteran left wing poster Andrew McCrae. I am now going to go back and recite some of the outrage expressed on this site by leftist posters. Lets see. Wait a minute. Hmmm. I thought ……………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………..
Dugger, For What’s Good, Against What’s Bad
If LGF was against violent racism toward Muslims and Arabs, LGF would ban commenters who spouted such evil shit. LGF does not. At best, such comments are treated as “understandable,” by accomodationist conservatives like we’ve seen from Frank here. At worst, they’re agreed with.
“if you don t condemn it, you condone it tactic is third grade nonsense.”
Tell it to the president, Jay.
You defended violent racists, Frank. It’s right here in the thread for everyone to see. Call me an asshole, numbnuts, threaten me with violence, whatever. But at least I don’t defend nazis. I hope you don’t have kids.
Racism is so funny, isn’t it, Dugger? Let’s all have a laugh about mosque burnings, shall we?
I oppose the genocide&
Yeah, but…
Anything after “but” is bullshit
I don’t know if it’s possible, but you’re a bigger asshole than JadeGold.
“it s all there in print, to refer back to whenever anyone wonders whether Frank D has a spine or a conscience.”
First of all, what do you think “it’s all there in print” means to me? Are you going to call the Times?
Second of all, what is this about the spine, again?
You want spine, numbnuts?
I’ll meet you at midnight Broadway and 43rd St, NYC — you name the day. I’ll beat your ass so bad, your children will be born dizzy.
Conscience? That’s between me and my God. Unless you think you’re Him, that’s none of your business.
Anything else you want to say?
TomY: How did people who are prejudiced against Muslims transform themselves from racists (which they aren’t, since Islam isn’t a race) to Nazis?
What are you going to call them next? Serial killers? Aliens from outer space? Poopy heads?
And, yes, I have kids…
Say something about them, now, you left wing intolerant bigot…
JadeGold: I would have suggested your house, but I wanted to be sure he could find the place, and I didn’t want to have to go to a sewer. You’re another left wing phony hypocritical bigot…
Hey TomY,
Does that moral high horse ever give you saddle sores? May we then assume that you, Oliver and every other leftish poster here endorses murdering cops. Otherwise, perhaps you can show me your condemnations of Bush hating leftist Andrew McRae.
Dugger
The issue isn’t that someone has to necessarily denounce bad behavior; one just shouldn’t go out of their way to defend it as Frank D and Jay C. have done.
Midnight at Broadway and 43rd? Why not just suggest second base at Yankee Stadium in the middle of the 4th inning of a Yankee-Red Sox game?
“subhumans, first time on 2 feet…round em all up, every friggin’ last one of them…unfortunately, I still think it will take even more violence from the Arabs before the West wakes up and goes savage on em”
Jay C reads this, and his first instict is to make excuses for it, explain it away, and pretend like these views aren’t condoned on LGF. But they are, and here you are, on a mission to argue with liberals instead of the poisonous psychos on your own team. Come back when you’ve got your priorities straight, Jay.
BTW, if you think saying something about my children would be going too far, ask JadeGold.
He insulted my parenting skills, and he doesn’t know me or my children.
So fire away!
one just shouldn t go out of their way to defend it as Frank D and Jay C. have done.
I haven’t defended ‘bad behavior’ so quit lying. I just call BS when I see it and the whole, “If you’re opposed to this then you would do this” nonsense is juvenille (which TomY is happy to engage in). I’ve also defended Charles Johnson against charges that he is racist, which he isn’t.
Again–for Jay C’s edification–the fact is LGF is a racist site. Racists tend to congregate there and that’s beyond dispute. LGF is also moderated by someone who will ban comments from those who aren’t onboard with the whole raze the ME!/Islam: the religion of peace? message. Yet, those comments talkng about ‘vermn’ and ’subhumans’ and ‘genocide’ never hear a peep from the moderator.
Look it another way; let’s suppose the local chapter of the KKK congregates in your backyard every Sat. night and holds a little cross-burning rally. Can you really say you don’t support the Klan? Why is it the KKK turns up in your backyard?
I don’t know who McRae is and I certainly have never defended him, though as a youngster I did purchase Body Count’s album Cop Killer.
But my, what an irrepressible gadfly you are, Dugger! It’s really admirable how you manage to maintain your sly, sardonic, irreverent tone even with Bush’s cock so firmly planted in your ass. You’re this website’s authoritarian Dennis the Menace!
I love the irony of Frank “genocide is understandable” D trying to prove that he doesn’t support violent facist thugs by threatening me with violent thuggery. Keep showing your stripes!
Frank D: Yes, I question your parenting skills; the more you post about racism being justified bears out my suspicions.
I’m going to take a shot and see if I can say a few things everyone can agree with.
At the very least, LGF should have written some kind of post denouncing the comments it has been getting. Kos didn’t hesitate to purge his site of conspiracy theorists a few days ago, and though I rarely agree with Kos, I was quite impressed with that move. Thus far, LGF hasn’t said a word, which is, at the very least, incredibly unwise.
JadeGold -
LGF is also moderated by someone who will ban comments from those who aren t onboard with the whole raze the ME!/Islam: the religion of peace? message.
Show me. This isn’t a challenge, or an attempt to dispute you; I just want to see where you get this idea.
And a brief word to grubi -
To simplify, for our conservative brethren: if 1) LGF moderates the comments to make sure no-one comments outside the LGF Partei line and 2) the REMAINING comments are racists, what conclusion(s) can be reached?
Frank? Anyone else?
Let me do it for you, so you don t strain yourselves: LGF supports racist comments.
What exactly were you hoping to accomplish here? Changing someone’s mind? At most, you’ve managed to piss people off by condescendingly assuming that conservatives are stupid because they haven’t come to the same conclusion you have, and because they *obviously* have access to the same information you do, and no more.
I’ve read LGF for some time now. Though I’m not a tremendous fan, I don’t see a helluva lot of evidence that LGF eliminates comments that are outside the party line (and given the amount of comments they get, that’s a Herculean task). So here’s your chance to convince me:
Show me where they have. Again, I’m not trying to piss you off with this challenge; if you’re right, I’ll change my mind. But from the way you’ve condescendingly insulted conservatives, I have trouble believing you were coming to the table with reasoned evidence.
I’m not going to say anything to Frank, since he’s managed to piss most everyone off. I’m surprised that people keep responding, though. It doesn’t seem worthwhile.
Jay C reads this, and his first instict is to make excuses for it
Where?
explain it away
I did? When?
and pretend like these views aren t condoned on LGF.
There you go again. You’re equating a lack of action you want to see with an action. If LGF doesn’t delete those comments and ban those users then he’s condoning it. Think about how ridiculous you sound for just one moment.
I’m sure you’ve been around Kos’s blog, and Eschaton, as well as places like Democratic Underground and Indymedia. I’ve read some of the most hateful and vicious things I have ever read at those sites/blogs. I specifically remember the glee and eurphoria that those leaving comments on Atrios blog had when Michael Kelly died in Iraq. Are you going to post all of the emails you sent to them telling them to condemn such comments? After all, according to your logic any lack of condemning hateful comments is the same as condoning them, right?
Of course, I could then take such hateful comments and especially the rabid anti-Semitism of contributors to Indymedia and somehow apply to just about all liberals.
But they are, and here you are, on a mission to argue with liberals instead of the poisonous psychos on your own team.
Guess what? Those people aren’t on “my team.” And guess what else? I’ve stopped reading LGF because of the whole comment thing. That doesn’t change the fact that you’re 100% wrong when you claim that Johnson condones such behavior simply because he doesn’t spend all day deleting comments.
NSP: My homework assignment answers:
http://obsidianwings.blogs.com/obsidian_wings/2004/03/vons_idiotarian.html
Another site, obviously less objectve:
http://lgfwatch.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_lgfwatch_archive.html
Grubi -
Sorry, complete quote.
To simplify, for our conservative brethren: if 1) LGF moderates the comments to make sure no-one comments outside the LGF Partei line and 2) the REMAINING comments are racists, what conclusion(s) can be reached?
Frank? Anyone else?
Let me do it for you, so you don t strain yourselves: LGF supports racist comments.
(I can’t even re-read it without asking…why? Certainly if you just wanted to be insulting, there are quicker ways.)
Racists tend to congregate there and that s beyond dispute.
No, some racists leave comments there. They’re not writing articles, nor contributing directly to the site. Nor do they have any editorial control. They write comments. They are not ‘congretating.’ Congregating is a phsyical action wherein a bunch of people gather together. A few neanderthals posting comments from various places across the United States is not the same thing.
LGF is also moderated by someone who will ban comments from those who aren t onboard with the whole raze the ME!/Islam: the religion of peace? message. Yet, those comments talkng about vermn and subhumans and genocide never hear a peep from the moderator.
I’d like to see some evidence of this. I’ve seen dissenting views posted there quite often, and they weren’t deleted.
Look it another way; let s suppose the local chapter of the KKK congregates in your backyard every Sat. night and holds a little cross-burning rally. Can you really say you don t support the Klan? Why is it the KKK turns up in your backyard?
Your example is completely invalid. For your scenario to have any validity at all, it would have to include hundreds and hundreds of other people in my backyard, with the vast majority of those people not being KKK members.
BTW, Obsidian Wings tends to be a conservative blog.
Tacitus–who is a rabid extreme rightwinger–also has his problems with LGF:
http://www.tacitus.org/story/2004/4/15/7485/72082
It’s true: Frank said racism is ‘understandable.’ Ding ding ding! Frank wins the argument! Everybody go home!
# Jadegold Says:
July 11th, 2005 at 1:20 pm
Frank D: Yes, I question your parenting skills; the more you post about racism being justified bears out my suspicions.
# TomY Says:
July 11th, 2005 at 1:24 pm
I love the irony of Frank genocide is understandable D trying to prove that he doesn t support violent facist thugs by threatening me with violent thuggery. Keep showing your stripes!
Your smug, arrogant, hypocritical self-righteous posts have convinced me that you are smug, arrogant, hypocritical and self – righteous. So? Aren’t all liberals?
By the way, Tom: fascism is spelled with an ’s’ in it. I’m a little obsessive compulsive sometimes in addition to being a violent racist thug — with stripes!
By the way, JG, see if I said “racism is justified”. I bet you can’t.
TomY,
“don t know who McRae is”
Precisely the point, mon ami. Perhaps, your assumption of moral superiority is not warranted.
Dugger
“For your scenario to have any validity at all, it would have to include hundreds and hundreds of other people in my backyard, with the vast majority of those people not being KKK members.”
It would also have to involve you going from person to person, kicking out the liberals, but then throwing your hands up and protesting “but I don’t have time to kick out the KKK guys too!”
TomY: You are really a dickhead. I never said racism is understandable. I said prejudice is understandable
prejudice = A partiality that prevents objective consideration of an issue or situation
racism = Discriminatory or abusive behaviour towards members of another race
Here’s a refresher. This was in the context of quotes calling for the death of all muslims and all arabs (note: arabs are an ethnicity, not a religion).
Jadegold Says:
Racism is quite understandable ?
Wow.
Frank_D Says:
Yes, it is. There, I said it. Now what, dipstick?
Perhaps this person, were he brought to my attention, would merit disapproval. And if there were a thread that began with a discussion of this McRae fellow, and I read what he had to say, then began to participate in that thread taking his side, then it *might* be analogous to the folks who read the calls for genocide above and immediately decided that liberals were the ones in the wrong.
Unfortunately for your analogy, though, there is no such thread, so why don’t you try again when you’re ready to make sense, okay?
Jay C, your points have been addressed above. In order for Johnson *not* to be condoning this stuff, you would have to believe that Johnson has tons of time to screen the comments for say, liberal commenters, but never any time for the racist genocidal ones. Hopefully, you’ve just got your head in the sand. Again, you saw these psycho quotes and your first reaction was to defend the oh-so honorable Charles Johnson, regardless of the fact that this stuff happens on his blog *every time* there’s a terrorist attack. Racists and bigots attacking the idea of the “religion of peace” and mocking “towelheads” are that site’s bread and butter. And people like Frank who apologize for the genocidal psychos by saying “racism is quite understandable” are, frankly, little better on a moral level than those psychos, because they tolerate their evil.
And then you’ve got people like Dugger, who see a debate between genocidal racists and their apologists and self righteous liberals, and what do you know, he chooses to go after the left, cause he just can’t help himself, and liberal self righteousness really is a more tempting target than right-wing facists baying for genocide after all. You really stuck your thumb in the eye of a liberal today, you merry prankster!
As far as equivalence goes between right and leftwing sites, nothing I’ve ever read in Kos, Atrios’s, or Drum’s comments are anything like what you can read on LGF on a regular basis. But since you’re so convinced, by all means show us.
By the way, JG, see if I said racism is justified . I bet you can t.
I see; you’re going for the Karl Rove defense.
Your words:
kfd: The prejudice on LGF is quite understandable.
Since we were discussing racial prejudice, specifically on LGF, it is plain you believe racism is justified–or, ‘understandable’.
Dugger’s using the “Chewbacca Defense.”
In Dugger’s on deck circle is ”What about Bill Clinton…?”
Hey, Dugger—what about Leonard ‘Meisterbrau’ Snickelfritz?*
Precisely the point ma petite pampelmousse.
* any similarities to persons living or dead unintentional
1) I was referring to prejudice, even though I inadvertently seemed to refer to racism
2) I said understandable, not justified.
3) I referred to prejudice about ten times, and racism only once. You accused me of being a racist about ten times.
4) I’m not a racist because you call me one.
5) Even if the prejudice of others is understandable, that still doesn’t mean I condone it. I only meant to suggest that I can understand why others might be prejudiced against Muslims. After all, it is Muslims that are killing people all over the world.
6) JadeGold vigorously defended Oliver’s broad brush painting of the “Far Right Wing” as guilty of vandalizing a Church, and burning it down. He even went so far as to say, “This was the act of mainstream Republicans.
There is no moderate branch of the GOP.” Prejudiced? Nah. Bigoted? Nah Stereotyping? Nah. He’s a liberal. and liberals are never wrong, right, JG?
7) Must I condemn it? Why bother? I tried that already, and I was told, “Your first impulse was to defend the people who called for it”. So since I’m already smeared, why bother to redeem myself now? So much for the compassion and tolerance of liberals.
Again, you saw these psycho quotes and your first reaction was to defend the oh-so honorable Charles Johnson, regardless of the fact that this stuff happens on his blog *every time* there s a terrorist attack.
You still don’t get it and I’ll keep hammering away at you until you do. What does a person saying something racist in a comment on Charles Johnson’s weblog have to do with Charles Johnson? How does some guy posting a comment about “ragheads” make Johnson a racist? Please. Explain your logic to me. I’m fascinated at how you can make such a leap.
Racists and bigots attacking the idea of the religion of peace and mocking towelheads are that site s bread and butter.
Oh that’s nonsense. Those kinds of comments make up a very small portion of the comments there.
As far as equivalence goes between right and leftwing sites, nothing I ve ever read in Kos, Atrios s, or Drum s comments are anything like what you can read on LGF on a regular basis. But since you re so convinced, by all means show us.
I already did. Apparently, you think mocking and celebrating the tragic death of a journalist some people didn’t agree with politically is a-ok! Let’s not forget “Screw them” Kos.
Right? Of course not. But that’s the connection you’re making. You can’t have it both ways. If the comments at LGF make the site owner and the site itself racist, then Eschaton is a hate site. Using your logic, that is the only conclusion one can reach.
Because Charles Johnson has allowed and encouraged an enviornment on his blog where nobody thinks twice about talking about genocide with regard to the middle east. As someone who has their own blog, you know that there’s a way to put a damper on comments, but when it comes to Johnson you – as usual – plead ignorance.
“Explain your logic to me.”
He can put a stop it and yet chooses not to. He certainly puts a stop to all the “moonbats.” You have yet to dispute this.
“I already did. Apparently, you think mocking and celebrating the tragic death of a journalist some people didn t agree with politically is a-ok! Let s not forget Screw them Kos.”
I don’t think they’re a-ok, but they’re a fucking far cry from people calling for the death of nearly a billion people. You can see that, can’t you?
“I m not a racist because you call me one.” “I inadvertantly seemed to refer to racism.”
Here’s why I called you one.
1) because you explicitly apologized for racism, “typo” or not, TWO TIMES.
2) you were apologizing for people who wanted to kill all Arabs — NOT MUSLIMS, ARABS. This is genocidal racism. I certainly can understand why people would be prejudiced against Muslim extremists, but all Muslims? All Arabs? No, that’s not “understandable.” That’s evil. And your first reaction was to go after not the bastards espousing those ideas, but liberals — attacking liberals was your priority over attacking genocidal racists. That is why I believe you to have no moral sense, or if you do, no spine to back it up so that your first reaction upon reading those statements, that of any decent human being, would be “hey, genocidal racism is wrong” instead of “hey, you liberals are wrong.”
“Must I condemn it? Why bother”
Because anyone with a soul would. Frank.
“Wah wah, JadeGold stereotyped Republicans.”
Call me when he’s advocating genocide and we’ll talk. But then, you’ll saying it’s “understandable,” won’t you?
You know, I feel quite comfortable stating that calls for the genocide of Muslims is, in fact, worse than Kos saying ’screw ‘em’ about what, 10 mercenaries? Than someone making fun of a dead journalist? Try again, Jay. And you have yet to explain how Johnson magically expunges liberals and yet not the genocidal bigots.
JadeGold -
Thanks for the links. I checked them out, and am having a hard time disputing it. I think you just changed my mind, and I appreciate you taking the time to do so.
As someone who has their own blog, you know that there s a way to put a damper on comments, but when it comes to Johnson you – as usual – plead ignorance.
I have a blog that at best generates about 300-400 site views a day. Right now because of my politics hiatus (I get enough of a fill here), it’s maybe 150. Even so, I have more of a problem with comment spam than I do with lots of comments. I understand that CJ could shut down his comments completely, but why should he? I could say the very same thing about Kos and Atrios.
And I’d like to know how one can damper the comments when there’s sometimes thousands a day other than turning them off.
I don t think they re a-ok, but they re a fucking far cry from people calling for the death of nearly a billion people. You can see that, can t you?
There we go. I was waiting for that one. It’s bad, but it’s not THAT bad. Oliver did that one time when discussing corrupt politicians. “Sure, we have ones who are corrupt. But the GOP has ones that are MORE corrupt.” That’s like saying somebody’s “more dead” than another dead person.
Frank D: I’m always correct; it’s a gift.
The fact is there isn’t a moderate branch of the GOP. Look at the GOP’s leaders. You’ve got DeLay, in the House, who is as crazy as a bedbug. Over in the Senate, you have Frist–by all accounts a world-class MD–who has been willing to diagnose people via edited videos and when asked if AIDS can be spread via sweat or tears—tries to weasel out of answering the question.
That’s not moderate.
I understand that CJ could shut down his comments completely, but why should he?
Jay C. knows better. At least I thought so.
There are a number of things CJ could do–were we to assume he’s not a bigot and didn’t encourage such racist rhetoric. Shutting down his comments is the very last option in a plethora of options.
Again, CJ seems to have no problem moderating those few dissenting comments.
And, he doesn’t have to comb his site, comment by comment, to put a damper on the racists. All he really need do is make an example out of a few of the more outrageous commenters and it’s likely the other racists will either tone it down or head over to the Anti-American Bichon Frise’s hate site.
That’s just one option— which I doubt he’ll employ because he thrives on the racist crap.
It seems that TomY and JadeGold have taken over the thread, There is no longer any room for debate or discussion. I guess you can talk to each other (note: congratulations are in order).
Incidentally, for the record, there are more than two people in the Republican Party — I know, I know, they’re the leaders, and everyone in the Republican Party does exactly what they say at all times.
JadeGold: DeLay is “crazy as a bedbug” — a diagnosis you no doubt arrived at after DeLay’s 72 – hour hospitalization. By the way, you wouldn’t by any chance be aware of the fact that calling a politician you have never met “crazy as a bedbug” is a violation of the APA’a “Goldwater rule”? I’d be willing to bet you have never even heard of the “Goldwater rule”. You may not even have heard of the APA.
You then spout some unsubstantiated (as usual) drivel about Frist, and claim that this makes him immoderate.
As correct as ever.
TomY: You hunted through this entire thread and found that I “explicitly apologized for racism, typo or not, TWO TIMES.” So, even if it is a mistake, even if I don’t know when the other time was (I’m sure you’ll tell me), I’m a dyed – in – the – wool, full blown racist?
Well, then, even though I know I’m not a racist, I guess you’ve just made me into one. No way around it.
Interestingly, Oliver has pulled off a coup — he has blogs all over the blogosphere talking about what a fool he made of himself, and two fools defending him here in this thread. And where is he? As usual, nowhere to be found.
He means this Bichon Frise Club
And you have yet to explain how Johnson magically expunges liberals and yet not the genocidal bigots.
That’s because the only thing I have seen is a few sites where people have claimed to have been banned, but no evidence. And like I said, you can go there right now and read all sorts of dissenting opinions, so your accusation doesn’t have much merit.
And, he doesn t have to comb his site, comment by comment, to put a damper on the racists. All he really need do is make an example out of a few of the more outrageous commenters and it s likely the other racists will either tone it down or head over to the Anti-American Bichon Frise s hate site.
Oh please. It took me almost a week to get rid of ONE person who turned from a troll into somebody that was engaging in harassment.
And besides, CJ’s weblog is popular enough. He doesn’t need the racist contingent to keep going so the whole “he thrives on that racist crap” is just more of your bullshit.
Yeah TomY, gotta love those peace, love and understanding liberals. Beating up police officers really says something about the morals of liberals in this country.
Tsk tsk.
Mouse: You can read about it in The New Republic soon…
JadeGold: I notice you didn’t respond to one thing I said to you. I wonder why. I require no solace.
Frank, has it ever struck you as strange that you, of all the various conservatives commenting on this site, have challenged someone to a modern-day duel at least twice?
You really need to relax there buddy. It’s far too easy to push your buttons to see which part of you will blow next. To be honest, it’s the only reason I read a thread that includes you at all anymore–sheer entertainment value.
P.S. How’s the condi fan fic coming along?
Frank D: I feel your pain.
If anything, you might take solace in the fact you were trying to defend the indefensible: racism.
Moreover, your already impossible task was made exponentially more difficult by the fact I had the truth on my side; you merely had deflection, threats, and absurdity on yours.
Come on Frank – you dish it out too – it would be one thing if you were turning the other cheek or not starting the name calling crud.
Jay C – I hope that the officer is fine and the three that did it are safely behind bars.
But as a side note – I would hardly call anarchists “peace, love and understanding liberals”.
But you know that don’t you?
Mouse: Has it ever struck you as strange that people who claim they are tolerant, compassionate and understanding have questioned my parenting skills (without knowing me or my children), said I have no spine or conscience, said I can’t or don’t read, called me a “pusfilled asshole”, asked if if I might require flash cards to understand them; asked me on the one hand, “what I do?”, on the other hand, why I haven’t answered quickly enough; and this is not to mention the various condescending, insulting remarks made by the likes of you and ‘quaker in the basement’?
I’d say my tolerance level is nothing less than amazing.
Just calling it like it is, Frank D.
Someone says racism is understandable and then threatens strangers to fights on busy NYC corners just strikes me as not the model parent.
JadeGold: Your remarks about my (and Jay C’s) parenting skills were made days ago. Don’t use this thread as an excuse. Besides, you still don’t know me or my children, and your remarks are out of line.
You don’t have children, or you would know that you don’t drag people’s children into debates
JadeGold, would you really like to hear what your posts tell me about you? Or maybe I’ll share what lots of other people think We conservatives can fight dirty, too.
Your lectures on tolerance and compassion sound a bit false when you know nothing about me or my children. This kind of behavior is not unexpected, coming from liberals.
Zappa: You’re damn right I dish it out. But the people I dish it out to don’t turn the other cheek, either. As for who starts the name calling, I wouldn’t go there, if I were you. You’ve done your share, and I didn’t even mention your name. And, I’m not sure, but I think even you believe there has to be some limit on these threads. Don’t you?
Frank D:
I sense a bit of oversensitivity WRT your child-raising skills; after all, my comments said nothing more than I thought your comments on child-rearing were laughable. Obviously, this touched home in some way I can only imagine.
Still, one can go back over your posts and find you have a penchant for trying to arrange fights; of course, these challenges always seem to be scheduled for weird hours and even weirder locations which strongly suggests you aren’t actually interested in pursuing the fight or duel or slapfest. Again, challenging strangers to fights is not a hallmark of a good parent. It is the skillset of a wino.
Your views and acceptance of racism also do not commend your parenting qualifications. After all, racism is taught and promulgated to kids, usually by their parents. You speak of tolerance and compassion but say racism is ‘understandable.’ Very incongruous.
Mouse: Can you honestly say there was a positive purpose for this question?
Why do people like you do this kind of stuff?
What do you get out of it?
You wouldn’t be trying to provoke me, would you? Nah.
Yes, a bunch of right-wing blogs are aghast and agog that someone would actually point out their movement’s intellectual and moral dishonesty. I’m trembling, really.
JadeGold: You really are a moron. Parents are always sensitive about their children. Were you raised by wolves? Didn’t your parents care about you?
Stop trying to justify your crude and distasteful behavior. If you can’t or won’t apologize, then I don’t need to hear any more from you on the subject. I’m sure you don’t feel the need to apologize — that would require the “skillset” of a man.
“this touched home in some way I can only imagine” You don’t have to imagine it. I already told you it was uncalled for.
“you aren t actually interested in pursuing the fight or duel or slapfest.” Well, duh! Ya think?
How many times have I called you a coward? None.
“Your views and acceptance of racism also do not commend your parenting qualifications”
Once again, we come to this canard. I do not, nor did I, accept racism.
I acknowledge its existence, and I understand where it comes from.
I guess as a liberal, you think you can wish it away by “condemning” it, but I live in the real world, where people are really angry at Muslims, because Muslims are killing Americans.
You keep calling me a racist, I keep telling you I am not one. I am certainly in a better position than you are to decide if I am a racist. If you were as reasonable as I am, you would never try to make a connection between an untenable accusation — that I am a racist — and a second judgement: that I am a bad parent. Yet you persist. That is as evil as it is ignorant.
As to sensitivity, what do you suppose being treated like a pariah on so many blogs has done to your attitude?
I sense a bit of oversensitivity WRT your child-raising skills; after all, my comments said nothing more than I thought your comments on child-rearing were laughable.
You are such a fucking liar it is pathetic. I never made any comments about child rearing and you still chose to make some idiotic remark about me and parenting (along with Frank). I paid it no mind because I give as much thought to your insights regarding my parenting about as much thought as I give to taking a piss, which isn’t much.
Putz.
Jay C… Liberals == Anarchists?
If you think this is the case, your head is farther up your ass than I previously thought.
johnnyprogressive, why don’t you read starting at the top. Maybe then you’ll see why I posted the story tongue in cheek.
I’ve been arguing with a bunch of dunderheads who equate Muslim hating racists to your everyday conservative. I thought the band of nitwits saying so would pick up on that, but I guess my faith in the brainpower of some was just too high.
Jay C, Muslim hating is pretty run-of-the-mill for those who visit LGF, a conservative blog. I sifted through enough comments in this thread, which are mostly back and forth name calling, and I understand your toungue-in-cheek attempt at illustrating your point, which was I’m assuming was “it is just as silly to call your typical conservative a Muslim hating bigot as it is to refer to the typical liberal as a police officer beating anarchist.” Since we refer to something that is rampant on LGF (and probably would be on other conservative blogs, if most of them actually allowed comments) and give plenty of examples, while you refer to a single incident by someone who does not reflect my, or most others’ on here political leanings, your point is asinine, regardless of how tongue in cheek you meant it to be.